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Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
Honestly, that's the exact reason I don't play historicals. Doing the history incorrectly is a large flaw. (Well, and the button trivia. Military history buffs and their obsessions with details that don't matter get tiresome, and that's been part of my day-to-day for far too long).
If someone else can ignore it, that's fine for them, but it is a huge turn off.
JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/01/12 03:01:06
Just Tony wrote: Over the last month I've helped at least 18 people online try to find Warhammer fantasy battle armies so that they could play either and over Edition or old world when it comes out. Don't ever try to get a job as a fortune teller.
congrats, that changes nothing about the scenario i presented.
JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
GW did state they would release rules for people to use their existing stuff in one of the warcom articles. What that actually means and how people interoret it are quite likely two different things based on past experience.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/12 03:17:13
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
While the hope is that the Old World will be inspired by 6th edition (with a heavy emphasis on on ballance) that is unlikely.
It will likely work similar to Kings of War or most likely similar to Hail Ceasar from Warlord (Warlord was started by and still has many former GW creative people on staff) since the creative teams of both companies are on good terms from what i have heard.
Scottywan82 wrote: I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.
After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.
Middenehim had organised Wizards Guild for a long time before, hopefully that will stay and many nobles had their own court wizard.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Pretty clever of GW. They dont have any news, so they instead go out with an announcement of what TOW is not, and will not be, and what certainly still happened.
And there you have it, already 3 more pages of speculation from the community.
Fayric wrote: Pretty clever of GW. They dont have any news, so they instead go out with an announcement of what TOW is not, and will not be, and what certainly still happened.
And there you have it, already 3 more pages of speculation from the community.
Sadly there is no Fantasy Valrak that could pad out each of these paragraphs into a Youtube-optimized 8 minute video for our enjoyment
But seriously, the amount of speculation even this non-announcment produces is a clear indicator that there still is a lot of interest in the old world that could be monetarized if anyone cared to do it, which makes me hopeful for the future of that setting.
Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
Well if at the end of WW1 it resulted in the world being destroyed and we all now lived on the moon, it might very well affect your enjoyment of playing a WW1 game.
It's like a book where you know that the story ends and that the end of the story sucks, it can definitely affect the enjoyment of reading the story again.
Since you mentioned WW2... there have been a few times over my life time where I've been struck deeply by the atrocities wrought during WW2 and it's affected my ability to enjoy WW2 stuff. WHFB is obviously not the same, but the events around something can definitely affect my enjoyment of the thing.
I never expected them to retcon the end times, but given how much a large portion of the WHFB fanbase hated it, it seems bizzare that they'd open an article about TOW with a reminder about End Times. It's best just not to mention it. If the fans want to pretend it didn't happen, why not let them. When you're trying to entice people who are bitter at you for something you did, maybe best not to bring up the biggest reason they're bitter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 09:23:28
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
This is a Quote from their FAQ that was posted a few years ago. It answered the question if the new edition would be 10mm miniatures.
What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 09:29:33
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
This is a Quote from their FAQ that was posted a few years ago. It answered the question if the new edition would be 10mm miniatures.
What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want.
To be quite fair, it's a very strong hint and a clear statement of intent, but of course changing stuff during development and pretending you never said otherwise happens all the time, and has happened with GW before. We have no reason to assume that what they said back then is not still what they plan to do, but it could happen. That being said, GW is very fond of their 28mm heroic scale and only rarely deviates from it, and almost never without a very good practical or legal reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 09:39:14
Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.
As i said: until we have very strong evidence to the contrary, the quote still stands and it is very reasonable to assume it will remain standing.
I'm sure there will be rules, like there were rules for everything in AoS. But GW want to sell you new plastic, not facilitate you using stuff you bought 10-30 years ago.
So no, I dont think its going to be an Empire only epic-scale game. But GW is going to want people to buy "Old World" Empire, Chaos, Orcs and goblins, undead etc. I suspect there may be a HH style cheap "Empire" box starter to get people going. GW clearly seem to be building the civil war and factions as the central narrative, at least for the opener.
The mention of the End Times stuff doesn't bother me. Yes it happened, Sigmar is a thing. This isnt just going to be WHFB 9th edition.
I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 11:40:59
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.
I don't mind 'historical' gaming, many of the legendary campaigns for WHFRP are set in 'the past', Mordheim is too, and so on. At the end of the day my dudes are my dudes and GW is not the boss of me, so i can do whatever i want anyway The old Old World had reached the point were at least the main area of interest was auserzählt anyway, so a shift of 200 spices things up nicely.
That being said, their 'The End Times happened and are canonically true' is a bit weird because it's not necessary from a story perspective: you could explain all manners of weird parallel universes by Warp Shenaningans if you wanted to, they exist canonically and are an accepted part of all Warhammer settings, so the conflict they solve here does not really exist in the first place.
The conclusion is, like other people in this thread observed, that it is probably for real-world reasons that they stress this point so much: It's a signal to players that AOS the game is not going away, being cancelled or shunted to the sidelines in favor of WHFB redux. A reasonable precaution against the rumour mill going into overdrive and damaging the sales of AOS.
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron. Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose. Warner will most likely never allow this though.
As for the Old World being "historical", yeah it kind of is, unless they go heavy into what-if scenarios. Like that DLC for CK2 about what would happen if the Aztecs invaded Ireland. Remember that CK2 is technically a 'historical' game, that covers scenarios such as : - Scandinavia remaining Norse, well into the late middle ages - Immortal monarchs - Literal devil worship - Aztecs invading Europe - The return of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire
As such, it is not entirely out of the question for GW to do something "ahistorical" such as introducing Lizardmen as part of some weird what-if expansion where they invade Bretonnia. They probably won't have Gelt or Helblaster / Helstorms though, because that would be really be pushing it. Not even CK2 had tanks.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/12 12:05:44
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Scottywan82 wrote: I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.
After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.
Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.
Will be interesting to see how they incorporate the Vampire Counts into this period; presumably there's still some minor Von-Carsteins lingering in Sylvania (might be having their own fun little succession crisis to mirror the Empire) and there's always scope for isolated Vamps from other bloodlines. Neferata is always going to be about.
Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
I don’t know why, but it matters a great deal to me. I enjoyed the Old World, but have struggled to read any novels or assemble any models set in the Old World since it was destroyed. Knowing that it ends, and how it ends, has killed the setting for me. I have no interest in playing “historical Warhammer” games or exploring events that lead to Planet Booms Everybody Dies.
I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?
While I don't feel this way about Warhammer The Old World, I can definitely understand the sentiment. I feel similarly about Star Wars since the retro-erasure of the old expanded universe. No intense feelings about the stuff they put out one way or the other and can't really muster much enthusiasm. "Huh. Neat," is about the temperature I can manage for any of it. Very much the "Once bitten, twice shy," feeling.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.
Important note on scale - GW maintains that their miniatures scale has remained consistent and the miniatures being produced today are in the same scale as the miniatures produced 30-40 years ago.
Put a modern day miniature from the last 2-3 years next to a miniature they produced in the 80s or 90s and we immediately know that they don't scale well to eachother.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
As for the Old World being "historical", yeah it kind of is, unless they go heavy into what-if scenarios.
Like that DLC for CK2 about what would happen if the Aztecs invaded Ireland. Remember that CK2 is technically a 'historical' game, that covers scenarios such as :
- Scandinavia remaining Norse, well into the late middle ages
- Immortal monarchs
- Literal devil worship
- Aztecs invading Europe
- The return of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire
As such, it is not entirely out of the question for GW to do something "ahistorical" such as introducing Lizardmen as part of some weird what-if expansion where they invade Bretonnia.
They probably won't have Gelt or Helblaster / Helstorms though, because that would be really be pushing it. Not even CK2 had tanks.
As GW have yet to do a "Dornian Heresy" scenario for Horus Heresy, its safe to assume they aren't going to do it for Old World. The reasons why they don't do alternate history/parallel timeline nonsense should be fairly obvious from a branding standpoint.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron. Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose. Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent. RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway. Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/01/12 12:42:44
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.
JimmyWolf87 wrote: Will be interesting to see how they incorporate the Vampire Counts into this period; presumably there's still some minor Von-Carsteins lingering in Sylvania (might be having their own fun little succession crisis to mirror the Empire) and there's always scope for isolated Vamps from other bloodlines. Neferata is always going to be about.
The Von Carstiens are the one most associated with the Empire but they are IIRc quiet during the Great War against Chaos - Mannfred was defeated in 2145 and Neferata's Sisterhood has also been keeping an eye on the remaining vamps in Sylvania so they don't start any more wars!
There are vampires in Kislev - after all they did have a vampire Tzarina. Kattarin immediately after the Great War ends! She reigned from 2309 to 2465 so be interesting to see if she appears and if they incoprorate her story.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.
Fair enough. I did get really confused about the whole Celebrimbor thing and how they made him a power hungry tyrant.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.
Fair enough. I did get really confused about the whole Celebrimbor thing and how they made him a power hungry tyrant.
It did not help that they were specifically forbidden from using anything from the Silmarillion, so they basically had to do a huge song and dance around anything resembling the actual Tolkienian story.
So getting back to the Old Word rather than Middle Earth - another cool pic
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mr Morden wrote: So getting back to the Old Word rather than Middle Earth - another cool pic
Spoiler:
It would have been cooler if they had taken inspiration from slightly earlier Early-Modern clothing styles to visualize that it's about 300 years distant from when we last saw the Empire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 13:00:17
Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing. I also noticed this :
He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.
Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 13:03:51
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
~4100
~1660
