Mentlegen324 wrote:

What TW:W designs are you referring to?

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:


I don't really see that. The Seraphon in particular you can tell haven't been designed with ranking in mind. The Saurus especially with outstretched arms and wide stances. The cities stuff as well really shares little design cues from empire if you actually compare what has been seen.

 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time

and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by

Voss wrote:

 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time

and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by

Quite a few editions of fantasy had very clear and specific rules for base sizes. The 'whatever' is more recent and mostly 40k. (AoS started without it to try to ease the transition, but I'm pretty sure there's documented 'right size' now).

 NAVARRO wrote:


Tangent was the post I quoted not what you said.
Tangent was me saying I find that Lot of minis awful (initially was talking just how they look) and then tangent was people saying you cant say that because design is an "achievement"...
Yes all personal opinions are subjective no news there.

I do wonder how O&G will be in Old world and I expect them to make Orcs like they used to and not like AoS Kruleboys. I think Old world Orcs may well be the update I was so eagerly waiting for in AoS.

Goose LeChance wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

I wouldn't trust them with anything, the people who made WHFB what it was are gone. All the new 40K stuff looks exactly like AoS because it's all the same sculptors with the same training and the same orders from the top.

This is why BFG is the last hope, it's nearly impossible to mess up the ship design unless they start putting 'my little pony heads' on the front.

 KidCthulhu wrote:

MvR wrote:
These new releases are quite interesting for what they potentially reveal about the number of models that will come in boxes, which, in turn, could offer clues into how the game will be played.

The Bret release has six swords and one axe. Five of the swords are of the same size, one is bigger. Does this indicate that these knights will be released in boxes of five? The five smaller swords are for if you want your whole unit to match, and the bigger sword is one for your leader if you wish to build a command group.

Releasing the cavalry in sets of five certainly matches current GW policy regarding mounted units, and I think all of this hints at bigger base sizes - not much of a shock there - and smaller armies than were seen during Fantasy, especially at the end. It does however raise questions surrounding how the Bretonnians will play - will the lance formation still remain? Do I need to by two boxes of these knights to make a full usable unit? I think the second is unlikely, as they will want to make things as accessible as possible, and as much as GW likes to charge as much as they can, there is no incentive to pick up this stuff if to get one unit on the field you need two boxes.

As there are the options of lances, swords and axes for the Bretonnians, it perhaps suggests the weapon options will be the defining factor in how units may be different from each other, which may prevent a large amount of rule bloat and memorisation, but may make some factions feel very similar to each other.

What if they put six knights in a box? You could still do lance formation that way, right (first rank: 1 model, second rank: 2 models, third rank: 3 models)?

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

And I think Kruleboys are the best Orks/Orcs they have ever done. lol Really not a fan of comedy orks with heads growing from their chests...

I think the Bretonnian and Tomb Kings stuff looks good. I also hope Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings is the way they go for the starter set.

Agreed, the Kruleboyz are the best Orc models that GW have ever produced. I can understand not being a fan of the aesthetic, but they are objectively technically excellent sculpts, so calling them "truly awful" is a truly awful take.

Anyway, I'm getting excited for Brets, they can't come soon enough!

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.

Voss wrote:

 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time

and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by

Quite a few editions of fantasy had very clear and specific rules for base sizes (I certainly wouldn't have rebased 80 ungor twice without rules). The 'whatever' is more recent and mostly 40k. (AoS started without it to try to ease the transition, but I'm pretty sure there's documented 'right size' now).

Voss wrote:

 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time
and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by

Quite a few editions of fantasy had very clear and specific rules for base sizes (I certainly wouldn't have rebased 80 ungor twice without rules). The 'whatever' is more recent and mostly 40k. (AoS started without it to try to ease the transition, but I'm pretty sure there's documented 'right size' now).

 BertBert wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

What TW:W designs are you referring to?

Cathay was surprisingly grounded overall (except for the montgolfieres ), but I'm not a fan of the characters morphing into dragons. That seems to be a bit high on the power scale for humans.

 Londinium wrote:


They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans. When Cathay (hopefully) gets a second pass over, be it through TOW 2e or whatever, if they darken up the background a little and make the dragons less altruistic and Cathay as a nation more grimdark, I think Cathay will fit into the vibe of the game rather well. It's like 3e Tau all over again.

 Londinium wrote:

They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans.

Taarnak 807983 11504524 wrote:

I would expect Orcs and Goblins to resemble the old world Orcs and Goblins. I imagine there will be some updates, but within the same aesthetic. Kinda like what was done with the Killteam Orks for 40K. I can't see them deviating as much as the Kruleboyz did.

bobthe4th wrote:

Taarnak 807983 11504524 wrote:

I would expect Orcs and Goblins to resemble the old world Orcs and Goblins. I imagine there will be some updates, but within the same aesthetic. Kinda like what was done with the Killteam Orks for 40K. I can't see them deviating as much as the Kruleboyz did.

If GW do want to use any existing AOS kits to fill out Old World armies they could use some of the Kruleboyz units to represent Hobgoblins. I wonder how east we'll go, and if Cathay and Kislev get versions of their Total War armies?

Vulcan wrote:
... Okay, that's fair.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:to call them anything but engineering successes...

Undead_Love-Machine wrote:but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.

 Vermis wrote:

Undead_Love-Machine wrote:but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.

Regardless of anything else... don't tie your identity to corporate plastic toy products so much so that criticism of them is 'insulting' to you.
.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Problem with that line of thinking is that right at the start of this GW stated that all old armies would be immediately playable. Which won't be true if they start messing with the base sizes.

On the chaos side of things, the obvious problem there is that the new ones carry AoS specific elements, such as Stormcast helmet trophies. So even if you can rank them up, they're not fantasy agnostic.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans.

As far as I can find, it has always been the case that the Dragons were the original inhabitants of the old world. The Old Ones/Slann basically invaded and took over during a hibernation cycle then forced the truly ancient Dragons to remain asleep by changing the planet’s orbit to bring it closer to the sun. You can see bits of this in the lore of the high elves and Lizardmen but it should also be telling that the most ancient breed of Chaos children are the dragon ogres.

As for the grimderpification, it’s entirely unnecessary; they’re already absentee despotic rulers who’ve abandoned their power to the care of their inexperienced children, except even the traditional way out from under the thumb of such a system is unavailable because they’re dragons and thus not particularly susceptible to the assassin’s knife. They exert absolute control of their populace, directing their entire economy and society towards war in a way the Imperium of Man would look at with envy, which only seems even slightly reasonable because of the clear and present existential threat on their northern border. Guarantee they’ve got “secret” and actually secret police all over, with all the corruption and abuse that implies.

 BertBert wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

What TW:W designs are you referring to?

Mostly the giant elemental ice Bears, war sleds and elemental ice weapons on the elemental ice guard.

 Londinium wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans.

As far as I can find, it has always been the case that the Dragons were the original inhabitants of the old world. The Old Ones/Slann basically invaded and took over during a hibernation cycle then forced the truly ancient Dragons to remain asleep by changing the planet’s orbit to bring it closer to the sun. You can see bits of this in the lore of the high elves and Lizardmen but it should also be telling that the most ancient breed of Chaos children are the dragon ogres.

As for the grimderpification, it’s entirely unnecessary; they’re already absentee despotic rulers who’ve abandoned their power to the care of their inexperienced children, except even the traditional way out from under the thumb of such a system is unavailable because they’re dragons and thus not particularly susceptible to the assassin’s knife. They exert absolute control of their populace, directing their entire economy and society towards war in a way the Imperium of Man would look at with envy, which only seems even slightly reasonable because of the clear and present existential threat on their northern border. Guarantee they’ve got “secret” and actually secret police all over, with all the corruption and abuse that implies.

Yeah the dragons always have predated the Old Ones but I preferred it when they just animals like forest dragons etc, not civilisation building shapeshifting pseudo-gods.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
All something in-line with how Kislev was before that, really. The spirit of kislev represented by a giant bear, spirits in magical ice bodies, bears as a relatively common trained creature, and magic ice weapons and/or ice enchantments were all something we'd seen already, although I would say that the sled being covered in ice magic rather than just being a sled was a bit much.

Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
You seem to have misunderstood, let me put it to you in a way that's easier for you to understand.

If you're going to critique miniatures, it's my personal preference that you don't do it in the manner of a 12 year old.

Regardless, this wasn't directed at you, so I have no idea why you responded.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
All something in-line with how Kislev was before that, really. The spirit of kislev represented by a giant bear, spirits in magical ice bodies, bears as a relatively common trained creature, and magic ice weapons and/or ice enchantments were all something we'd seen already, although I would say that the sled being covered in ice magic rather than just being a sled was a bit much.

 triplegrim wrote:
https://youtu.be/kCQL4eaRqWo

Some more rumors are floating around, mostly about more news coming soon.

Kislev vs Chaos starter set but possibly bretonnia vs Tomb Kings.

 Vermis wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
All something in-line with how Kislev was before that, really. The spirit of kislev represented by a giant bear, spirits in magical ice bodies, bears as a relatively common trained creature, and magic ice weapons and/or ice enchantments were all something we'd seen already, although I would say that the sled being covered in ice magic rather than just being a sled was a bit much.

Against all odds I think I still have the 6th Ed Kislev supplement about here somewhere. I would need to check - I beg your understanding - but I remember an Ice Queen sorceress* and a named character with a bear. Heck if I know what came in earlier editions, but I understood the ice weapons showed up in the earliest TOW concept art.

Anyway, yeah, I understand it's like the flanderisation of a space marine chapter with a certain wolfish theme that shall remain nameless. There's an ice queen, and a single bear, so then we've got to have her casting icy spells on weapons and more guys on bears, and before long we've got rymeshard swyrds, spyrs and halbyrds, icyspycycle golems, bears as heavy cavalry, bears pulling chariots, bears for fast skirmishing bowmen, bears lugging the camp wagons, bears and cats, living together...!

At least, such would be my understanding.

4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.

The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.

Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.

The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.

Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.

The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.