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 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?

That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.

I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.

Yea the two factions that would be playable. Forget daemons, beast, orcs, ogres, elves, dwarves. Nothing for those.

 Cruentus wrote:
I’m not sold on the Paladin. In resin, I’m going to hope that the sword/pile o junk he is carrying is a separate piece (it almost has to be, right?).

When I first saw it, I thought he was carrying a lantern in his left hand, then I thought he had three arms. It took me a bit to see through all the stuff tacked on.

And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?

That being said, I can dump that terrible backpack whatever it is, give him a shield somewhere, and clean it up into a proper Noble (depending entirely on price, of course).

He needs all the equipment to adventure around and get gak done. Compare to bretonnia fukkbois Questing knights who has sworn to never sleep more than one night in a place before moving on om their quest for the holy grail.

Very remnicient of the questing knight package pieces with kitchen items and books.

tneva82 wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?

That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.

I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.

Yea the two factions that would be playable. Forget daemons, beast, orcs, ogres, elves, dwarves. Nothing for those.

Wait. You think that by forgoing a starter set, that somehow, magically, everything for everyone is going to be released all at once?

Factions are still going to be released in no particular order, with older ones screwed over by having to wait to be 'playable.'

 Geifer wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm a bit surprised, seems my level of appreciation of TOW stream is a bit higher than the Dakkadakka average once for a change.

It's pretty focused with lots of unspecific "stuff is coming". I can appreciate it because I'm specifically interested in what's going on with Tomb Kings, but I can see how the wider audience didn't get much out of it.

What are the takeaways, really? It'll release at an as of yet unannounced, even unhinted point in time. New stuff isn't all plastic. Whenever it comes out, two niche armies are first. I don't think any of that is very exciting for most people who are looking forward to the old setting coming back.

Six seconds in I realized there would only be a single model per faction displayed.

I am predicting a 2025 lacklustre release. Might just as well get with the warhammer armies project or whatever, or I'll be close to 50 before I get some rank and flank games.

I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.

A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.

Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.

I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.

 stahly wrote:
I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.

A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.

Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.

You expect to see models that weren't good in the 1990s sold for 2020s prices, you get confirmation that GW is going to do just that, and you can't be disappointed? Well then.

It felt less like a preview and more a handful of community articles strung together at the last minute. While initially excited on seeing the first new TK and Bretonnia models in years, hearing they would be resin dampened my excitement, and the rest of the preview was lacklustre. The presenters sounding uninterested (really noticeable during the artwork section), along with the rehashing of what they've already revealed before in community articles, combined with their responses in the Q&A it does seem like they're setting this up to fail a second time....after they've made a boatload of cash from nostalgia first, of course.

It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.

tneva82 wrote:

Well it was that or start with 2 factions to play with and expand slowly.
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?

and now we are expanding slowly and have no cheap core to start, or do you think every single faction will get their full range on release (old+new models). It starts with 2 factions that get some new models and will slowly grow without any cheap easy to build models

the one big point here is a different one, GW said that 2 player starter sets are meant for first-timers not for veterans, hence GW thinks that even games like HH or Necromunda are played by people who are totally new to wargaming and not veterans who want a cheap way to start

but for TOW GW thinks no new player is interested, they were not back than and are not now, and it is only there for those old people who might have finally left the GW bubble if TOW is not made


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stahly wrote:
I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.

A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.

Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.

a lot of people hoped that this will be really big and become the 3rd/4th main system, while other expected at least Specialist Game level treatment but from what we have seen, it is even less than Lord of the Rings as there won't be a cheap entry to the game

this is a lot smaller than most people expected, while also a lot of people have told them not to expect much

PS: it is even less than HH started off as even that game got a cheap model starter with the boxed games, although it was not a dedicated 2 player set

I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.

Thing is AoS replaced Old World in its position as major fantasy model line.

GW bringing old world back isn't going to change that one bit. GW were up front that Old World was going to be like HH so having resin alongside plastic makes perfect senses, HH also has a lot of resin. It also makes sense that they might start smaller with it. GW has never run concurrent fantasy lines alongside each other from their own IP - the only time they've done it was with Lord of the Rings and Old World at the same time and you can argue that that did help contribute to reasons that resulted in Old World dwindling in popularity.


As for old kits coming back, people keep thinking that that means they are bringing the super old skeletons back and not that its the new stuff (eg skeletons riding snake constructs) which was pretty new at the time of it being removed. Tomb Kings weren't an army of just old models, they had a good chunk of new things that were lost along with them. So bringing those back is good news and also means GW can help bulk out the release.



In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....

Seen this doing the rounds:

 Overread wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.

In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....

Except not committing to it enough is only going to make it more likely to result in it not doing well. If they don't give it enough attention because people might not get into it, and people don't get into it because they haven't given it enough attention, that's just a self-fullfilling prophecy of their own making.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.

Even if it was primary every faction back all new plastic wouldn't be in cards.

That would require more resources gw's main cash cow gets combined over years.

Sorrv but anybody who expects that has zero business sense and would bankrupt gw inside half a year.

tneva82 wrote:
Sorrv but anybody who expects that has zero business sense and would bankrupt gw inside half a year.

If you find anybody who expected that, do tell them.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.

In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....

Except not committing to it enough is only going to make it more likely to result in it not doing well. If they don't give it enough attention because people might not get into it, and people don't get into it because they haven't given it enough attention, that's just a self-fullfilling prophecy of their own making.

Yep. The HH infantry hiatus already made people gun-shy, and that was with a huge and enthusiastic start to HH 2.0. An even worse production schedule for TOW is going to flatten interest. Starting without confidence and this lackluster preview (after years and years of map fluff only) is pointing the starting gun at the racer's foot.

 Overread wrote:

In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....

given that Warhammer died because there was not much support from GW, mainly on the model side, and expensive to get into doubt that doing the same now will result an the opposite outcome

and I doubt that GW manage to react that fast if people storm the pre-order and the rulebook is sold within minutes, we have seen what GW does with unexpected high sales on niche products like Cursed City
like TOW selling better than expected, getting high priced models a year later to compensate won't do anything good

https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

EDIT: My favourite Blogger posted it a second before I hit submit.


Anyway... This is a more positive turn of events.

The only thing I'm slightly dissapointed by is the return of metal miniatures. I was kind of hoping that all metal miniatures would be remade in plastic.

 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?

I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?

 Overread wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?

I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?

Looking at the twitter thing he says a "starter set" contains a board/mat and such, but to me "starter set" is synonymous with just the typical box sets of 2 armies + rules you can use to get into it at launch.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).

 Overread wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?

I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?

Starter set used to have easy to play rules, quick start pamphlets and how to assemble leaflets. That type of paperworks?

Re: Eddie's comment, it's either damage control or alluding to a "phase 2" launch box after the initial online riles release for legacy armies (or both I suppose).

It's looking like they're putting the barest minimum effort into this so I'm expecting essentially an 8th Ed. reissue rules wise. I'd gamble with 90% certainty that I'll have no incentive to walk away from 6th.


At least there'll be models to buy...

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).

I agree. For what I care by now, they could just re-release 6th or 7th edition and old models by now, and some vague promises about updates and future releases. At least it would formalize the 'living/existing game' status that is important to so many gamers.

I feel I've waited long enough for this hypothetical game. I dont even know what the army comp rules will be so I can paint up while waiting. Luckily I've gotten into Mordheim living rulebook gak, (which is contrary to my gamer tastes, but its pretty good) and can live with TOW just being vaporware. Feels disappointed at todays release/teaser. Its obvious any real release is at least 2 years in the future. At the very minimum 18 months.

All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?

Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.

 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

What a pointless distinction, but at least the message is reassuring.