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chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).

There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.

caladancid wrote:
All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?

Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.

Conquest was going to be okay unless GW decided to go full on rank and file. The game is different enough (lore, scale, art direction and rules) that hits a different spot than Warhammer Fantasy. Removed - none of that please.

caladancid wrote:
All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?

Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.

Seems like they're not really working on it. Though the bretonnian paladin looks great imo, I can get similar stuff 3d printed. I feel like they could just release a Legacy rulebook with 7th edition and all 16 army books some old models and that'd be it, as much as they seem to not worl on TOW anyway.

Okay, I could see some merit in "soft launching" with old kits and rules release to reignite the interest of older players before moving on to a proper "hard launch" with new kits, but only if GW is willing to ignore sales numbers for an extended period of time.

Can anyone imagine GW looking the other way for a year or two while this project is taking up production capacity?

 Just Tony wrote:
It's looking like they're putting the barest minimum effort into this so I'm expecting essentially an 8th Ed. reissue rules wise. I'd gamble with 90% certainty that I'll have no incentive to walk away from 6th.


At least there'll be models to buy...

Rules (writers) are cheap. Molds are not. Cutting cost on models is not likely indicative of the effort that goes into the rules.

 BertBert wrote:

 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

What a pointless distinction, but at least the message is reassuring.

It highlights how badly GW communicates. They are more concerned with keeping everything a secret than setting clear expectations, and surprisingly* that comes back to bite them time and again.

I was actually surprised how much actual information was in the various roadmaps. I think AoS is the weakest one still, shying away from telling you what the last battletome is when codices to be released around that time are named. Getting nothing at all for Old World during the same event that sees some loosening in this area probably makes things look even worse.


* to no one but GW**
** the last part is speculative

 Overread wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.

Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?

I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?

Launch Box means limited numbers and no re-print
like the 40k boxes at start are launch boxes, those that come later with less models are the 2 player sets

so if they make a launch box it just means it is not meant to stay but gone if it sells out

 kodos wrote:
[Launch Box means limited numbers and no re-print
like the 40k boxes at start are launch boxes, those that come later with less models are the 2 player sets

so if they make a launch box it just means it is not meant to stay but gone if it sells out

Which is fantastic because scalpers can just pick up right where they left.

Well at least there is a launch box and presumably there will be battalion boxes as well.

Sathrut wrote:
Seen this doing the rounds:

So new Saurus Warriors will be universal, but I guess Cold One Riders will return.

Woah, it seems that I was not in hopium/copium/dreamium after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Olthannon wrote:
Well at least there is a launch box and presumably there will be battalion boxes as well.

No launch box it seems.

In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

Really who thought 100% new kits would be plastic?

Do people forget forge world is resin maker? That's their thing...asking resin maker do plastic is like asking gw not do plastic.

You get new plastic models as well. No resin models was never on cards.

Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

That's actually pretty darn neat news - esp considering how Larping is on a rise

GW has to play all of their cards close to the vest, because of the upcoming 40k release. I would expect more chewier info about TOW after that release, like in the fall or winter closer to TOW's release around Christmas.

Just so you guys know the announcement of resin models is a good thing. Resin like metal allows the designers allot more flexibility when is comes to releasing new models/units/monsters. We have discovered the with plastics take allot longer to plan and produce. With resin/metal models a company can have new models on the table in a couple of months for little cost, while it can take a long time to plan and produce plastic models, almost a year for one mold in some cases.

I disagree that the rerelease of older plastic is bad. It is a very sound and smart choice. Most of the plastics that exist in both AoS and 40k are older kits. I mean look at the Ogres and the Eldar they are still selling troop kits from the early 2000's and they are still good when put them up against more recent kits. I am a fan of some of the kits they are releasing like the Bret Knights and the Nercosphinx. I agree with what has been said before, it is more important to get models on the table then argue about making new ones of kits that already exist and are still quite good. Anyway even if GW did put out new Realm Knights, i am fairly confident that they would not look very different then kit we are getting (their design is figured out). I am way more interested in the new units that are coming to the table top.

On resin TOW stuff?

I only ask that it’s character models in resin. Sure WHFB never had the plastic range we have today in AoS and 40K, as a significant number of units were metal/Finecast.

But I don’t want to have to pay Forgeworld Prices for units worth of models. Nor deal with cleaning up and washing resin unless it’s truly unavoidable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:

Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

That's actually pretty darn neat news - esp considering how Larping is on a rise

On this, as a formerly seasoned LARPer?

There’s LARP safe weapons, and your preferred system’s LARP safe weapons!

Buy smart. Buy…well. S-Mart, I guess.

Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

Given the image bears the badge of Nuln... just how does one render a cannon LARP-safe?

 Dysartes wrote:

Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

Given the image bears the badge of Nuln... just how does one render a cannon LARP-safe?

There are a couple of hobbyists that made LARP cannons with compressed air and foam balls, but usually projectile weapons of all kinds are not allowed because of legal issues and common sense

Well that was a very disappointing reveal. The fact that they're not doing a starter box shows that they don't have much faith in this and aren't going to push it to any new people (also judged by 'it's not your starter wargame comments).

By failing to encourage new people into the game and providing a number of starting points, they're just setting it up for failure. I'm going to be so pissed off if they come out and say 'no new people were buying the range' in a few years. If bloody Necromunda can support a starter set, then TOW should be able to.

But HH doesn't have a starter, does that mean they have no faith in that?

GW's definition of a starter box is the ones AoS and 40k have with the three sizes with the cardboard terrain and stuff.

Vorian wrote:
But HH doesn't have a starter, does that mean they have no faith in that?

Yeah my bad, it's been clarified on Twitter. GW classifies 'starter sets' as those paints/pushfits/bit of gak cardboard things that they put out alongside 40k/AOS at three price points. Not the traditional '2 armies/rulebook in a box' style releases, which everyone else calls starter sets.If we're getting the latter, then I'll retract my previous statement and it's a lot less of an issue.

 Overread wrote:

Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

That's actually pretty darn neat news - esp considering how Larping is on a rise

Larp is popular for a long time here, and Warhammer dominates the greater local Fantasy scene (more or less), specially for the evil factions

so yes, for a lot of people it will be nice to finally buy the stuff instead of scratch building everything

 Londinium wrote:
Well that was a very disappointing reveal. The fact that they're not doing a starter box shows that they don't have much faith in this and aren't going to push it to any new people (also judged by 'it's not your starter wargame comments).

By failing to encourage new people into the game and providing a number of starting points, they're just setting it up for failure. I'm going to be so pissed off if they come out and say 'no new people were buying the range' in a few years. If bloody Necromunda can support a starter set, then TOW should be able to.

Serious question, do you even think there is a game?

No starter set. No release date. No nothing. 2025 at the earliest I say, and I now believe the whole thing was a stunt to take wind out of KoWs sails.

Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.

What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).

There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.

They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).

There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.

They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.

Yeah, and stuff like this would have been prime content to put into the actual presentation, and not just in the non-streamed Q&A session (i get that there are reasons for not streaming that, but you could, you know, have actual things and information in the organized part, not just 5 mostly empty slides and some filler art). As it stands, relevant info trickles through several layers of distortion before it reaches the wider community, and what one forum sees as readily apparent because they have an 'in' on the session seems like unhinged ramblings to another. It's a dumb approach championed by very dumb marketing/management people. They struggled to fill even half-hour slots anyway, i don't buy for a second that time was the issue here...

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.

A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?

I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.

But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.

depends if they mean HH1 or HH2 as in HH1 it was mostly books and some minis with the plastic kit coming from board games

one problem here is, that the 3 Emperor is a similar setting to HH, a starter set with humans and resin upgrades to turn them into the 3 different factions, or even going further making one for each state would have sold and get things running

add Norsca and Kislev into it, Dwarfs and Orcs over the next years and keep the game going

this is what was expected when said, similar to HH

now it is old stuff Bretonnia and Khemri, with some Q&A answers that hint that the new plastic kits will be for units that were not there before rather than replacing old ones
which might be also similar to HH regarding the available units

if all this results in a rushed rule book just to make it this year without actual content, this won't fly
for an anniversary they could just re-release the 6th Edition book and Ravening Hordes book as Hardcover Premium Edition in 3 books (rules, army lists, background) and as bonus adding the 8th edition models to the game. Would do less harm than a rushed new game

After the Middle Earth "reveal" yesterday, my expectations were set to zero.

So was fairly happy with what came to light. Just give me a rulebook, the army lists and access to the old models and I'm good to go.

I am interested that we haven't seen Tomb King regiments yet in the same way that we've seen old school Bretonnian kits. Makes me wonder if they are going to re-do the TK skeletons to the same scale as Vampire Count skeletons.

But then the Tomb Guard would be out of scale (assuming they reissued that kit). Hmm...

Really just interested to see if we get new lore / art

The new models are quite nice. Other companies do do nice resin and the same theme and much cheaper so....