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 Mallo wrote:
Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab)

If rather than ranting you would apply this useful skill taught in 1st grade called "reading" you would see new plastic kits are coming.

But naah. Ranting based on your imagination is much more in your style clearly.


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 Paymaster Games wrote:

- armies will be a mix of Resin and Plastic (I believe that Metal was brought up i do not remember where).

warhammer community wrote: and they’ll join a whole range of resurrected and revitalised miniatures from prior editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battles – in plastic, resin, and metal – to make satisfyingly varied armies.

Here clearly says metal.

lost_lilliputian wrote:
So do all those rumours about getting a starter box launch just before Xmas this year seem a bit on the nose now?

Also was it Valrak who started that, or just repeated it?

Valrak was in the camp of 'Epic this year' and said things about TOW only two times (at least according to my summaries of his videos that's been running since January): once before Warhammerfest, literally just to mention that he has no idea what they'll show, and once before Adepticon where he mentioned that Seraphon will be dual-use. The starter box rumour imho came from speculation and has no definite source, i know that i myself have speculated as such and mentioned it in several threads as something that would be likely from a marketing point of view because of the 40-year anniversary. Others may have done so as well.

A starter box makes sense. After all, HH had them so why wouldn't the old world?

 Breotan wrote:
A starter box makes sense. After all, HH had them so why wouldn't the old world?

Apparently they fell back on 'well ackchually'-ing about semantics about that anyway, which is yet another not-so-good sign.

But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.

TOW isn’t like that as there will be a much wider range of armies played.

It’s possible there will be a launch box available for a limited time, of course.

 Breotan wrote:
A starter box makes sense. After all, HH had them so why wouldn't the old world?

GW and everyone related like to tell you that HH never had a starter set
Starter Sets are well defined by GW and the Age of Darkness set is not a starter, therefore the misunderstanding as what GW means by that is something different as what people refer too

now be it the problem that people are not talking in GW language when asking questions or GW not understanding what people mean is another topic

but they just wanted to say that there won't be an easy to build new plastic starter set with Khemri and Bretonnia, just the same set but with regular models (at some point in time), which is totally not the same as a starter set (and dare you to leave the GW bubble to know that such boxes are named starter sets by other companies)

/s

 Souleater wrote:
But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.

TOW isn’t like that as there will be a much wider range of armies played.

It’s possible there will be a launch box available for a limited time, of course.

That's why the Empire civil war/time of three emperors was not the worst idea, you could have made it so, with 'generic' imperial forces and addon sprues for the factions. But alas, seems like that is coming much later, if at all.

 Souleater wrote:
But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.

Lord of the Rings? Necromunda? Kill Team?

HH and AT are unique in that case and the only ones here. Yet I don't get the argument saying it makes sense for HH but not for TOW when GW actually said it will be a HH like box.
what is the point, GW clarified that it will be a HH like box, just not a starter set

 nathan2004 wrote:
I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.

But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?

Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months

I think the real issue is that they have no game. And that IP matters somehow hence the very out of place card game about war in the old world last year or the one before. I think they also know it weakens the customer base of competitors like KoW and Conquest.

 triplegrim wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.

But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?

Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months

I think the real issue is that they have no game. And that IP matters somehow hence the very out of place card game about war in the old world last year or the one before. I think they also know it weakens the customer base of competitors like KoW and Conquest.

It's wearing thin at this point, but Corona excuses at least part of that time frame.

Kickstarter chumps get Cash up-front, are not running dozens of concurrent production lines, do usually not have to care about feeding all the corporate overhead at all times, have no shareholders/board of directors to please, many of them fail to actually complete the games they promised, and there are several very relevant horror-stories where the game gets made in 6 months, but it actually takes years to ship it out to backers afterwards, or the chumps renege on the deal, take more money for shipment, cancel rewards and so on and so on.

Tl:dr - comparing extremely high-risk garage operations to an international corporation with worldwide distribution etc. is not exactly fair, in neither direction.

As for your last paragraph: yes, that seems increasingly likely, looks like they're aiming for the 'minimal viable product' they can put out and still satisfy some legal definition.

I love the new Bretonian Knight on foot, the flat surfaces and big simple details are the chefs kiss. (IMO).

 triplegrim wrote:


Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.

Logistically pretty difficult I would have thought. Is it one person from GW spitting on the entire hobby community? Is there a spittle department? Maybe that's why there's no release date yet for TOW, too busy trying to spit on all of us to produce miniatures.

Shall we get the incense and sounds of falling rain soundtrack vol. II out in this thread? Good grief.


I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?

GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.

Overall, good reveal for me, old models going back into production is excellent news and a steady increase in new ones over time as the game develops is exactly what I wanted from this.

 Olthannon wrote:


GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.

The move to metal is interesting for a couple of reasons, it implies that they plan on keeping or even expanding their existing metal facilities and inhouse know-how for the forseeable future, which is interesting in itself. The cynic in me suspects it has to do with tightening environmental regulations in the UK

not really, it is the same with the made to order stuff, we see metal models for those that never got Fincast ones and even some older ones that were made in Finecast being back to metal
more like Finecast being finally out, old stuff returns in metal and new stuff made in classic resin

triplegrim wrote:But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?
Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months

Gimgamgoo wrote:I find it odd that in 3 years, a multimillion pound company still hasn't managed to release a game they announced 3 years ago. A game that it has written 8 times already. It should be perfect by now.
Kickstarter companies manage more than a few maps and a few figures in the time GW have had, on a fraction of the money GW have.

Because those companies want to make a game and need to launch it fast because otherwise people want their money back, tell KS that is not delivering and the company will be gone soon after

like doing nothing for years but an article once in a while to prevent people from wandering off is marketing, and GW does not need to do more. People rather wait 6 years for something than starting a non GW game as long as there hope that it will finally be there

why is GW not doing it faster? because they don't need to, they don't even need to deliver anything but just give a hind and people invest money and time into something that may never come (like any other company asking for different base size to play an existing game would see a shitstorm and people happily re-basing models for a promise)

so why should they try harder, because otherwise people start playing Kings of War?

Paymaster Games wrote:It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.
Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.

By now I am pretty sure the whole thing started of as a joke and they were surprised by the reactions and needed to come up with something
It sill looks like that GW thinks that no one is really interested in the IP, and Curse City fits in there as well (thought it will take years to sell the produced number of boxes and not minutes, with no backup plan and a panic reaction) with not expecting that there is huge interest for the setting

Not that there is doom upcoming, but everything shows that GW underestimates the demand and at the same time repeats the mistakes of the past (no full range-refresh on release of an army), which will lead to the same results
and if we get a "not a starter set" that they think will last years and is sold within minutes, there will be a problem

Mentlegen324 wrote:It really does seem odd that some of the first big things we saw were Kislev and it was talked about for a while, we were told that Kislev and Cathay were designed for TOW and they even made rules, only to now say "Oh, actually that's a very long way away".

So in order to hype up this project, they showed something that isn't relevant to the actual launch / core of it.

this is what lot of people said back than, they showed the stuff because they needed to show something and TWWH came in handy with new art never seen before
and it is easy to put a new label on artworks and write nice text on how this was made with the old world in mind (yeah well, it is a PC game in that setting of course it was made with Warhammer in mind and rules were made so that the designers of the PC game have something to work with)

 Olthannon wrote:
I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?

the hope that GW learns from mistakes and not repeating them
in addition, how bad of a presentation can you make were the main information that should have been on the slides need to come via Twitter an hour later

Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

Army books could cover a few army’s considering GWs price for them.
Orcs and goblins already like it.
GW being GW so will probably be a massive success and GW will be surprised and unprepared and stuff it up.

Is it a for old players and won’t break it, or get new players in? I don’t know anymore.

Apple fox wrote:
Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.

It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.

GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.



Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.

Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.

 Overread wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.

And new people who are interested in TOW/WHFB because of the video games. It would be absurd for them not to capitalize on that, but they don't seem to be.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:


GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.

The move to metal is interesting for a couple of reasons, it implies that they plan on keeping or even expanding their existing metal facilities and inhouse know-how for the forseeable future, which is interesting in itself. The cynic in me suspects it has to do with tightening environmental regulations in the UK

Or just they have all they need to do metal models right now so rather than redo metals in other material keep doing metal.

One could say they learned finecast wasn't popular so rather than turn metal to finecast they keep metal.

They don't need to expand. They already have it.

 Olthannon wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:


Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.

Logistically pretty difficult I would have thought. Is it one person from GW spitting on the entire hobby community? Is there a spittle department? Maybe that's why there's no release date yet for TOW, too busy trying to spit on all of us to produce miniatures.

Shall we get the incense and sounds of falling rain soundtrack vol. II out in this thread? Good grief.


I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?

GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.

Overall, good reveal for me, old models going back into production is excellent news and a steady increase in new ones over time as the game develops is exactly what I wanted from this.

Oh how snide you are. Real clever.

I think they have falsely advertised that they have a game when they do not. This is a fair thing to be disappointed at. Even the announcement at Warhammer Fest was just more of the same.

And I think it is clear they mostly did it as a stunt to try to keep the third edition of KoW from gaining steam or at best as a comarketing campaign towards TWWH or something. No way they actually will release something the next 24 months.

You keep saying they have　no game.

Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar

tneva82 wrote:
You keep saying they have　no game.
Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar

so you are claiming they have one?
can you proof it?
and if they have one, why no release date, or preview, or what style?
they don't even know what base sizes the new game will be using except for "some models will be on larger bases", which mean they don't say something, or they don't have something to say.

by all we have seen, heard and read, they don't have a game yet

 Overread wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.

It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.

GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.



Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.

Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.

Alternative history is a popular sub genre for both fantasy and sci-fi, it’s not even hard concept to sell.

If they do set it earlier, then it already highly risks altered history anyway if they find it’s a success and they need to work stuff in.
But maybe that’s been squished now, better to clean it up and have a vision to work from than what it feels we are getting now.
Another mess that GW will hopefully fix.

It would probably help AoS if they where to alternative history from that point as well. Since that setting still feels like they trying to work out what the hell they doing with it.

 Overread wrote:
the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

This isn't a time travel paradox, WFB being a functionally separate setting has no bearing on AoS.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Overread wrote:
the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

This isn't a time travel paradox, WFB being a functionally separate setting has no bearing on AoS.

Aye but I meant more in a product focus aspect rather than lore/story wise.


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Apple fox wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.

It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.

GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.



Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.

Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.

Alternative history is a popular sub genre for both fantasy and sci-fi, it’s not even hard concept to sell.

If they do set it earlier, then it already highly risks altered history anyway if they find it’s a success and they need to work stuff in.
But maybe that’s been squished now, better to clean it up and have a vision to work from than what it feels we are getting now.
Another mess that GW will hopefully fix.

It would probably help AoS if they where to alternative history from that point as well. Since that setting still feels like they trying to work out what the hell they doing with it.

The biggest help would be if GW used the same bases on both game lines and just had one game with freeform movement and another with movement trays.

 Overread wrote:
Aye but I meant more in a product focus aspect rather than lore/story wise

I've seen this sentiment expressed before, but GW doesn't seem to have any issues supporting both 40k and HH. I'm not convinced there's any real threat of un-focusing their fantasy offerings here.

Tyel wrote:
I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.

But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.

Roughly half the TOW/WHFB factions already have brand new plastic ranges:
- Lizardmen (just now)
- Chaos
- Daemons
- Goblins
- Skaven
- Ogres
- Vampires

And probably a couple more I'm forgetting about.
Then you also have all those units that could fit in old factions, like part of the Sylvaneth range, part of the Daughters of Khaine, ...

Bretonnia and TK were nuked, but then even the factions which had no refresh in AoS (Dwarves, High Elves, Empire (yet), ...) still have some 8th ed WHFB minis sold in AoS.

I think the issue from threads like this is people are clearly divided on "what they want". GW is in turn seemingly unsure on what they are going to give us.

I get the feeling some people just want the game and the old mini's back. In regards to Warhammer, you've somehow gone to bed and woken up in an alternate 2014~ where they've announced a new edition rather than End Times.

I can sort of get that - and I was in that camp for a while. Unfortunately though its been the best part of a decade and that matters outside the garages of immortal grognards. I just feel increasingly disconnected from the models all those years back. Sure, when GW release the rules I'm going to give them a go. But I can't see myself starting a new army that's mosty ancient kits. I can't see many people doing that.

Which will mean sales will be low and it won't be a success. When they start talking about "a whole range of resurrected and revitalised miniatures" in resin and metal it just doesn't feel like a serious modern release. Its just made to order writ-large.

As an Edit - I think it depends on how old is old. Some minis hold up. A lot don't. Even some of the 8th edition plastics are over 10 years old now - and will be older still by the time TOW is actually out. 7th edition is 15+ years old. 6th edition can be pushing 20. Saying minis are old enough to drink used to be a criticism of GW not refreshing them, not a motivation to get hold of them. If you've got that mostly 6th edition army and never got one unit then this is great news for you. But I can't see that attracted new people in.

People can "what about AoS" - but the issue is still there. GW keep wanting to lure me into say a Flesh Eater Courts army. I like the fluff - I don't really mind the models (although they are a bit samey). But basic ghouls are from 2008 and they look it. Do I really want GW to do an HD version of the kit at twice the price for half the minis? Not really - but it is putting me off. Giant Pig model looked cool. Are basic Black Orcs still okay? I guess its an okay kit - especially in a world where you don't have to worry about them ranking up. But... eh. I'm not convinced you'd start this.

Skaven got new plastic range?
their core infantry and main range is still 8th edition or older

Hah, I wouldn't use "band new" and Skaven or Ogres in the same sentence.

As an aside, wouldn't the new VC look like giants next to older models from the range and/or human troops?

 Overread wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

No, it doesn't. Fantasy has had multiple timelines before, the most prominent being The Enemy Within from WHFRP 1st Ed. which ended with Karl Franz dead and a new emperor on the throne. Tamurkhan was originally meant to be an alternate timeline as well.