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Yeah, it very much isn't qualified with "at launch" or "to begin with", it's "these are the factions the game will focus on". And it *is* weird that they've built up Cathay and Kislev so much, but now no sign of them. Clearly ran into some problems.

James12345 wrote:

Vorian wrote:

James12345 wrote:
The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.

I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.

But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?

Stock levels are low on basically everything though, right?

They will need to manufacture a good amount for all these supportes armies. Not least for the new packaging/to include the bases.

Wow. This project is turning out to be a hot mess.

Billicus wrote:
Yeah, it very much isn't qualified with "at launch" or "to begin with", it's "these are the factions the game will focus on". And it *is* weird that they've built up Cathay and Kislev so much, but now no sign of them. Clearly ran into some problems.

So far we have been shown more diaries about things the game *isn't* about than ones that directly consider things that are 'in focus'...

As i said, there has to have been at least one major direction change that they're plastering over in their typical GW manner of never acknowledging the obvious.

 Gert wrote:

James12345 wrote:
I wonder if she or Chris peach will do a video about its development. Chris seems to be doing a lot of "exposing gw" type videos, would be interesting to get an insider view on it

There is a difference between Chris Peach talking about his time as a retail monkey or why he decided to leave GW and "exposing" stuff. Talking about the development of a game system that is in active development isn't going to happen because NDAs are a very enforceable thing.

Not only that but like several of the ex-presenter staff chances are he's wanting to keep his options open. The whole patreon/youtube market can implode or you can make a few mistakes and your numbers tank and suddenly a regular steady income stream from an employer is more attractive once more etc.... Heck some "content creators" just burn out after a while because the demand to produce can be quite extreme. Esp when you have to keep up with all the various marketing and search engine algorithms.

About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave. Given it's a whole new army demanding a full release of new miniatures and not recycling old ones, and given TOW is a Specialist Games project with far more limited ressources than for "their main games" AND much more limited calendar release dates...it actually makes sense it's not their priority RN. They will already have their hands full with putting old kits in production again and releasing full Bretonnians / Tombs Kings first. I'm not expecting all of that will be ready to be sold day one as well either.

But yeah, better keep your expectations low and stop getting hyped for anything unless you have an actual date and picture for the release.

What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.

That and they still don't tell about the measures of cavalry bases. And now monsters and chariots too. Tell them already, you did for infantry so go the full way now ! You know it, we saw them on the pictures showing just old miniatures rebased, we don't have to wait that damn sheet on "ReLeAse DaTE".

Vorian wrote:

James12345 wrote:

Vorian wrote:

James12345 wrote:
The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.

I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.

But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?

Stock levels are low on basically everything though, right?

They will need to manufacture a good amount for all these supportes armies. Not least for the new packaging/to include the bases.

The brand new bases... which they're also going to produce en masse for replacements.

Sarouan wrote:
About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.

There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.

There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.

From the article :

Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.

So yes, there's a first wave that is intended. That means they intend to make more.

And "focusing on" doesn't mean "solely including".

But yeah, since they didn't put Kislev on the list, that means it's apparently not before a while.

Sarouan wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.

There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.

From the article :

Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.

So yes, there's a first wave that is intended. That means they intend to make more.

And "focusing on" doesn't mean "solely including".

But yeah, since they didn't put Kislev on the list, that means it's apparently not before a while.

Obviously there's a first wave of books. That's not the same as a first wave of armies.

Actually, in context, I'd argue it could be. The armies listed are the core armies of the game, which doesn't mean other stuff won't be added later on.
If the first wave is focusing on the Border Princes, the second wave could focus on the north where most of the core factions still operate but with the addition of Kislev. The third could focus on the east with Cathay fighting the forces of Chaos at the Great Bastion.

Again, still confusing and unclear but not an outright confirmation that Cathay and Kislev have been removed from consideration.

 Sacredroach wrote:
I literally only have three armies left for WHFB

Skaven
Lizardmen
Chaos Dwarfs

So I suppose I'm not the target audience for The Old World...

You know, they wont mind if you buy a new army
Ofcourse, I dont know how bitter you are, but it sounds to me you are exactly the target audience

The armies not being 'supported' are those who have the majority of their ranges still on sale for AoS, and so don't require a relaunch of old models with new boxes wince they're already on shop shelves.

and this is a reason making them pdf only instead of adding them to the books?

OK guys lets ratchet this down quite a bit. Lets shad some much needed light into this dark hole of despair that this post has become.

So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models. Now it is important to note that, if GW did not kill WHFB most if not all of these kits they are releasing would still be on the shelves. This is a respectable release.

Second, They are releasing ravaging hoards lists for the armies with the exception of the Dogs of War. This is good news for all of the players.

Sarouan wrote:
What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.

well, I would not bet that the people at Warhammer Fest knew about this, or that this was already planned by that time


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paymaster Games wrote:
So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models.

I would not call that the good news

that GW meant by "best from 3rd to 8th" the models is something good for the collectors and those with existing armies that misses something

I am not very excited about mixing again models from 5th Edition with models from 8th (because of the different design and size), without an alternative
inconsistent model design was a reason why Warhammer did not sell well, and now we get this again, which means no new players unless those plastic are really really cheap

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.

Was it - when was that?

That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.

Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.

Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.

Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.

As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.

Yea? I'm not talking about fluff but rules.

Are you claiming kislev units not been part of empire book before? If yes you are lving. If not then you agree with me.

Then maybe you should've included "rules" or "book" or "army" in the initial post that was quoted - reading it as talking about Kislev being part of the Empire as a geographical construct is certainly not unreasonable.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units.

I don't think you're going to see that much new stuff come out, personally. Actually I could have sworn they said at Warhammer Fest or something that they would be focusing on releasing new character and hero minis rather than units, but I could be wrong about that.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
OK guys lets ratchet this down quite a bit. Lets shad some much needed light into this dark hole of despair that this post has become.

So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models. Now it is important to note that, if GW did not kill WHFB most if not all of these kits they are releasing would still be on the shelves. This is a respectable release.

Second, They are releasing ravaging hoards lists for the armies with the exception of the Dogs of War. This is good news for all of the players.

What if in six months an update states that now only 4 armies will be available at launch, and the rest will get a low-effort Legends PDF? Still nothing but relentless good news all around? How diminished does this project have to become before people are allowed to be miffed?

I’m just happy I’ll get easier access to toys to play 8th with (assuming I can still find opponents) but I 100% get the frustration of those hoping this was full-bore WHFB coming back.

Eh, this seems very half-baked and my interest has rapidly dwindled. At best, TOW will be an opportunity to buy some long unavailable kits for use in 6th Edition.

Two new characters and 2 or 3 new units per army is astonishingly optimistic.

Sarouan wrote:
What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.

I don't think GW is dumb enough to put presenters in front of eight hundred people at their largest event and have them break the good news that seven out of sixteen old armies can go suck it.

Much better to have people voice their concerns on the Internet where it's more easily dismissed and not bring the mood at the event down.

GW isn't Blizzard, you know.

 kodos wrote:
and this is a reason making them pdf only instead of adding them to the books?

They don't want to include pictures of them on round bases, and are too lazy to rebase some on the new base sizes.

Well, when you see the armies "out" of TOW, it's true that they are those who are actually available fully in AoS. So getting models can still be doable.

Bretonnians, Tomb Kings and High Elves, obviously they are the ones who got cut the most in AoS so need the most work to put back in production, IMHO.

At least at the time right now. Something tells me that when Cities of Sigmar get out with their new range, suddenly a lot of Empire boxes will disappear as well. Maybe most of the elves and dwarves too.

As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.

And let's be honest, it's a Specialist Game we're talking about. I still have the Necromunda and Blood Bowl experiences in mind. Meaning all factions / teams were NOT released on launch, to say the least (got to play with the pdf for quite a lot of time !). Whole armies the size of old Battle ? No way in hell. Just see how they already struggle with Horus Heresy - and it's mainly copies of Space Marines.

Sarouan wrote:

As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.

Yes. The well-documented 'main actors' of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
Yep.


I'll give you minor renegade nobles of the Empire and Bretonnia (though really, Brets are just starting the Errantry Wars and are neck deep in reclaiming their own land from orcs). The dwarves are right over there.
O&G and Beastmen tend to show up and knock things over.

Even Khemri, I'll give them the stretch that they want things back from some period of expansion or Nagash's invasions northward.

But elves (who have long abandoned most of their colonies) and warriors of chaos, at the nadir of the winds of magic, all the way down south?

Voss wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.

Yes. The well-documented main actors of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
Yep.

Border Princes were always the part of the Old World that was deliberately vague and "shifting" for the factions there, because that was the part where players could make "their personnal realm" for those who wanted to insert something new (and not just an army from a set region).

They litterally could be filled with anything at the time of Battle, so it's nothing new really.

yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others

if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense

 kodos wrote:
yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others

if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense

I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.

I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.

I'm fine with "pdf" lists (well my old school mind is as long as there's a way to have a paper version somehow, TBH) as long as they give tools enough. Actually, I may just -play- with that instead of a series of "power army books" that bring nothing really good to the game.

Voss wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.

Yes. The well-documented 'main actors' of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
Yep.

It's not like there were two relatively popular computer games set there, one featuring Empire vs. Skaven, one featuring Empire vs. Vampire Counts/Necromancers.

Now that would just be silly.

 stahly wrote:
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

Hard to be satisfied when your three main armies (Dark Elves, Skaven, and Lizardmen) just effectively got Squatted. Yeah, I can still use them in the game for the moment, but my feelings toward TOW is rapidly becoming 'Why bother?'