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Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.

 stahly wrote:
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

I don't why those players with the 1/3 of the armies in the setting that clearly just don't matter and won't be a part of this project beyond lip service rules should be be grateful and satisfied to not be involved, or even just interested in other areas of the lore and were hoping it was a return to the WHFB setting.

It's some of the armies, in one part of the setting, at one time period, with no mention of expanding it to cover the rest later on. And we've only had that clarified (but its still vague) over 3 years after it was announced, and after we saw stuff outside of what this says its going to consist of.

I don't see how that's meant to be a good thing.

The armies not getting army books are getting Ravaging Hoards lists. You army is not getting Squatted.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

No, there is not, they said Vampire Counts are not part of the narrative™. Not 'not now' or 'until later', just 'not part'.

Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

It's not said that they'll do the actual war, the game is set in 'the decades leading up to it' and before the rise of Asavar Kul - the Great War is something like the End Times were for a long time for classic WHFB: constantly looming on the horizon, not actually happening

It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

At that point we're multiple years past the initial release, at best, if the game survives that long.

As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.

That is very nice for you, but i don't think that criticism of their confused communication and shifting focus is unwarranted.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

Well given article after article on Bretonnia and the Empire, including politics and geography and lots and lots of maps, I was expecting that to be the focus. With supporting conflicts in the Errantry and Vampire Wars. Since orc holds and vampire fortresses were on said maps, and the vague timeline was pretty generally around the right period.

Weird, right?


I don't actually mind low support for chaos dwarfs, lizards and dark elves: they're off over there. But it doesn't work with high elves and chaos warriors as main actors in the Border Princes, because they're just as much 'off over there' as the ones getting low support. And much more so then vampires. Who are on the specifically-for-TOW maps that they've publicly shown off in their own Dev Diaries.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.

I really don’t get making up things, like a source book, and then claiming OTHER people were not realistic. The thing you describe is quite literally not real. You made it up just now.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.

It's not clear. If it was clear then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

What this article tells us is that, despite us seeing Kislev, Cathay, Vampire Counts icons etc and then being talked about previously, they aren't part of it.

Not just at the start. Not just as the initial release. Not just starting small and expanding it to do the other stuff later. It outright tells us that [/i]this[i] is the scope of "The Old World" project and those other armies, aren't part of it beyond those free rules. This project has turned out to be 9 out of 15 or however many it is armies, in the Old World part of the map, at that specific time, with the rest of the setting "not part of the narrative" for the project and not even a mention of later expanding it to add those later.

We're getting just a chunk of WHFB back for something that for years has been hyped as being along the lines of a return of the setting/game itself.

While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.

 stahly wrote:
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting/time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed-out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favorite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

I don't understand why people who clearly aren't invested in a thing have to project a holier-than-thou attitude towards people who clearly are and voice their opinion on it. Doubly so when it includes implicitly defending a company that makes serious money off its customer base, especially one with predatory and consumer-unfriendly business practices such as Games Workshop.

On top of that, this behavior is t is all the worse when it comes from a semi-public personality in a given community such as yourself. Even if you don't care how/if it affects your brand/image, it is very ungentlemanly.

The fact that many people complain simply means many people care, and most of the criticism I found online hasn't been unreasonable. The vast majority of GW's "dev diary" so far has been the exact opposite of how a marketing campaign should be led, even a slow-burning, long-winded one. In addition to previous gems such as "Remember kids, the End Times totally happened and the setting is still dead as a doornail" (GW should've left that one out and simply continued supporting AoS as its main game and ToW as its secondary, as it will anyway), today's "update" follows suite.

The biggest gripe I have with it is the wording. The current wording makes it so that the factions left ould will never get anything aside from the free rules at the beginning. Instead, they should have written that the listed factions will be the focus of the FIRST campaign book/chapter/stage of the project/whatever.

And if the project fails before reaching the implied second/third/whichever stage, everyone still invested in it will be disappointed anyway, so it makes zero sense to disinterest a portion of your target demographic in advance. Especially since vamps/dark elves/lizardmen/ogres have fully functional ranges still sold across existing AoS armies.

Looks like GW has finally come up with a plan rather than hype to hold attention/string along their remaining market share.
IMO, of course.

Having played Chaos Warriors/Slaves to Darkness at the beginning of AoS; I can say that playing a legacy army in a GW game sucks.
Slowly feeling your army get comparitively less powerful and left behind is a great recipe for salt.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.

You can keep digging the hole deeper if you want. The bottom line is there is no evidence whatsoever for the things you said. In fact the article today emphasizes the “core factions” (which suddenly doesn’t include the first army they told us was a big deal, go look at the past articles) will also be the focus of supplements.

Saying that other people had unrealistic expectations, and supporting that premise with straight up daydreams, is wild.

Also, GW seems to have removed the "good" and "evil" labels from its list of factions, so it's a good thing they're listening to their target audience to an extent at least.

Which also makes voicing criticism of all kinds all the more important.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

Sarouan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others

if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense

I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.

I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.

what else than being lazy hinders them to write those stories so that Dark Elves fit too?

if it is only because of stories that are written that we, in a setting that does not has any stories by now, "fluff" is a lazy excuse and nothing more

models being sold in AoS and GW wants to keep them apart is a reason, "some armies don't fit the fluff that is not yet written" is an ecuse


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paymaster Games wrote:
The armies not getting army books are getting Ravaging Hoards lists. You army is not getting Squatted.

you know why Bretonnia was one of the factions that hardly anyone played?
because they had only their Ravening Hordes List for years, so players who played the game back than know what it means if their armies only get a pdf with no future support

I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.

 kodos wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others

if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense

I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.

I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.

what else than being lazy hinders them to write those stories so that Dark Elves fit too?

if it is only because of stories that are written that we, in a setting that does not has any stories by now, "fluff" is a lazy excuse and nothing more

models being sold in AoS and GW wants to keep them apart is a reason, "some armies don't fit the fluff that is not yet written" is an ecuse

It seems like it is important to them to separate AOS and TOW as much as possible, by not doing rules for most AOS units, and by not supporting many armies that have a current AOS line. As to why it is important to them, we can only speculate, but it seems to be the case.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.

They previously said that. Now they are saying this is what the scope of the project for the game actually is.

They outright say Vampire Counts, Skaven etc aren't part of the narrative for "The Old World". Not just at the start or this first thing, the game itself.

I am a bit confused will they still be releasing the old miniatures not on the list and just not doing new rules or miniatures or not releasing the models either?

armies not on the list will only get a pdf army list

there won't be models for them, neither old nor new ones, except those that are still sold for AoS

and we don't know how detailed the pdf lists will be (just a list with profile and base sizes, or actual army book style rules)

It doesn't sound like they'll be releasing minis for the factions not playing a (current) part in the game

nightwolf2040 wrote:
I am a bit confused will they still be releasing the old miniatures not on the list and just not doing new rules or miniatures or not releasing the models either?

That is open to interpretation, but seeing how they mention new and returning kits for the 'Core factions' but say nothing about miniatures for the others, except that 'they will receive rules ... for the players that have these on their shelf' i'd interpret that as a no. A lot of kits can be straight taken or at least proxied by AOS miniatures though, if the currently-sold AOS kit is not the old WHFB kit anyway.

So here is my perspective on the article;

1. It's referencing 8th ed armies and factions. Nothing can be taken out of it for Kislev/Cathay.

2. It's feels like they're going to be focussing on story driven content.

3. The story is the lead up to and the big war with chaos.

4. In this context the game "starts" at the border princes and moves forward from there. High Elves make sense because they literally come over and help during this time.

5. Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are included mostly because they can be their own narrative story. Tomb Kings also decently represent barrows in the borderlands and Bretonnia have errant knights running all over.

6. The current armies all have a fairly tight narrative with each other (outside of the previously mentioned Tomb Kings).

7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.

They've done a great job with Heresy. Maybe we give them a little leeway with this?

 Hulksmash wrote:
So here is my perspective on the article;


7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.

Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

It literally says first wave dude

yeah, first wave are the border princess and the last wave being siege of praag

and the non listed faction are left out because they did not play a role in that 100 years the narrative game covers

not the first wave is war against chaos with 9 factions and the other factions will be done in the next wave
nothing in the article writes anything like that

it is the 9 factions and the first wave is border princess narrative books

MaxT wrote:
It literally says first wave dude

In a different part of the article. The part about factions not being part of the game is separate and in no way says these only won’t be part of the initial wave. It says, and this is a literal quote “not part of the narrative we’re telling with the Old World.”

 kodos wrote:
yeah, first wave are the border princess and the last wave being siege of praag

and the non listed faction are left out because they did not play a role in that 100 years the narrative game covers

not the first wave is war against chaos with 9 factions and the other factions will be done in the next wave
nothing in the article writes anything like that

it is the 9 factions and the first wave is border princess narrative books

This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
So here is my perspective on the article;


7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.

Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

It literally does though…

This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.

…

Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes

…

These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.

Emphasis mine.

It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:

The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

…

When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.

Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).

Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.

Why?

I mean if its narrative led, we don't need to get to Praag until the end of things.
I think this could well be like "Horus Heresy I", "Horus Heresy II", "Horus Heresy III" etc.
They've planned out say the first 2-3 books and it will cover era-valid army lists for the 9 factions. Everyone outside can get stuffed.
That sounds silly - but then Xenos could have easily been brought into HH but they never did because they didn't want to.

We might not see Kislev until "TOW: Siege of Praag" coming to a store near you circa 2030.

MaxT wrote:
It literally says first wave dude

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
So here is my perspective on the article;


7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.

Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

It literally does though…

This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.

…

Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes

…

These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.

Emphasis mine.

It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:

The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

…

When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.

Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).

Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.

No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.

It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.

Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.

Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.

Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?

Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change