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 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls

Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count

 kodos wrote:
if they would have done that 1-2 years ago, that very same article could have also released 1-2 years ago

it says nothing really but that "nothing" would have generated hype 1 year ago while now not so much
that we did not got it earlier were hints for rules changes would have been more important for the marketing rather than covering a computer game tells me that there was nothing to write about regarding rules back than

and I also wrote "depending on how you read it" not that it is an absolute fact

Well. If they have just started playing the game we are looking at maybe 2025 release.

GW doesn't generally put out that long ahead information though.

we are currently in the 4th year of "not long ahead", by that metric we would look at the 2nd Edition of the game now

similar to Sisters they are doing things differently to what they to generally
game might be close, or 2 years away, one can hope but don't be disappointed

Legions Imperialis is in August and there's a new edition of AoS next summer.
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Considering they've still given nothing but absolute surface level, i find that hard to believe. Those aren't even new photos i believe.

 Gert wrote:
Legions Imperialis is in August and there's a new edition of AoS next summer.
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Some token-effort box to coincide with the 40th 'showcase miniature' for Warhammer's 40th birthday, some nostalgia bait releases before christmas, serious releases next year if it ever comes to that.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Considering they've still given nothing but absolute surface level, i find that hard to believe. Those aren't even new photos i believe.

They are absolutely new photos. Models are on upsized bases and war machines are actually based.

So, we can conclude, if nothing else, they've at least manufactured the new cavalry bases. So that's something.

 Gert wrote:
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Well, I guess they can be vague so far in terms of the rules on intent so that they keep content for Warhammer community articles...but honestly, that's not giving me faith. When I read this article, it really gives me the feeling of them still exploring what to use for the game system. Which is not a sign of a game ready to go in a couple of months, to me.

Sarouan wrote:

 Gert wrote:
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Well, I guess they can be vague so far in terms of the rules on intent so that they keep content for Warhammer community articles...but honestly, that's not giving me faith. When I read this article, it really gives me the feeling of them still exploring what to use for the game system. Which is not a sign of a game ready to go in a couple of months, to me.

Current container lead time is still about 6 months, add writing, layout and the actual printing times and you're looking at 9-12 months of total lead time from the desk to a product in-store, and that's cutting it rather sharp. It practically means that either the product is finished and has been for a couple of months at least (if they want to release something this year) or it will not be coming within a year from now.

So we're getting the "It's not coming, so just play AOS" crap the same day as the WHC articles now?

Tsagualsa wrote:


If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.

There are no dice pools in 40k/AoS I'm aware of that they reference in this article.

I do agree with what most everyone has said here, lot of words for really nothing of substance. Besides the base thing not really being a super duper important issue now.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls

Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count

There were two ruined ones that could be combined to make something more intact - Witchfate Tor and Dreadstone Blight.

 nathan2004 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:


If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.

There are no dice pools in 40k/AoS I'm aware of that they reference in this article.

.

You got my meaning the wrong way around: they said that TOW won't 'focus on managing dice pools or hands of cards' (which WHFB historically used for its magic phase, old-school used Energy Cards / Winds of Magic cards, later editions used pools of power dice and dispel dice) - this, in my opinion, means that they're now aiming for a magic system that is more like in AoS or Warhammer 40k, where spells are abilities that are bound to units, and do not operate on an army-wide pool at all.

Intrigued by the push and pull thing. I used to love orchestrating line wide routs against my opponent’s units. But I can see pushy-shovey being perhaps more interesting.

Even in the old editions I was thinking that this coin toss Ld test that led to breaking and destroying entire enemy units and routing their nearby friends (or not) was too swingy* I was hoping for a more incremental thing, where units need to accumulate some morale penalty tokens or sth before they break, and until they do, they only give ground slightly. Hopefuly it's some kind of a similar solution.


*-unsurprisingly factions immune to it were the strongest in the game, edition after edition.

Cyel wrote:
Even in the old editions I was thinking that this coin toss Ld test that led to breaking and destroying entire enemy units and routing their nearby friends (or not) was too swingy* I was hoping for a more incremental thing, where units need to accumulate some morale penalty tokens or sth before they break, and until they do, they only give ground slightly. Hopefuly it's some kind of a similar solution.


*-unsurprisingly factions immune to it were the strongest in the game, edition after edition.

You are loosely describing the system in Kings of War.

Also worth noting (via his post on Facebook today) is that Rob Alderman who was (still is?) the design manager for the Middle Earth Stuff is now design manager for ToW and is behind a bunch of the tinkering being talked about in todays article (but wasn't when the core rules were set down)

so folk who've been reasonably happy with how the Middle Earth stuff has been handled/written will hopefully see similar handling for this

At the same time, the Middle Earth stuff has them dealing with someone else's IP. They have to treat that more carefully lest they risk losing it. For their own in-house stuff there's not the same level of incentive to get it right first try (or at all, in the case of some games/editions).

I still think we'll see a release for this towards the end of the year, but all their vaguebooking isn't helping things. The magic stuff sounds just like 10th magic - they're just set abilities that Wizards have and there's no chance of ever changing what spell any given Wizard has.

While the article was surprisingly light on anything of substance, it made two solid points.

First, ond most importantly, the rules seem to be at the point where things are set in stone. Meaning the whole thing could be around the corner... or still a year away. Either way, we know about as much about the TOW rules as we know about LI - and that one is confirmed for next month.

The second thing I am actually not really happy about, and that is a massive change to the magic system. Apparently this is going to be like AoS/40K are handling magic/psychic things right now. I am not a fan.

Not really of worth for discussing the game system itself, but I like the look of the armies shown. They look chonky, without going overboard (as during 8th edition). And this...



... is refreshingly small in terms of WHF army sizes of old. Basically a handful of units a side, plus some additional warmachines or monsters... and it still looks like a proper game. I am a fan.

Anyway.

At least they actually posted something during July, after announcing an article for June and then staying silent without any mention whatsoever.

Can anyone tell if those Stone Trolls are the current "Troggoths" or the old metal ones?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can anyone tell if those Stone Trolls are the current "Troggoths" or the old metal ones?

They are the old WHF sculpts. Whether they will come back in metal or resin is to be seen.

See... that's just cutting your nose off to spite your face.

The "Rockgut Troggoths", despite their obnoxious name, are just plastic Stone Trolls. They even use the same poses, and the 'Evy Metal team painted them in much the same colours as the originals.

I would really hope that you can just use those rather than bringing back the (smaller) old sculpts.

It'd be like forbidding Goblin players from using the new Squig Riders and re-releasing the old metal ones.

I for one would be very happy to see the old Trolls return in metal. And I say this as somebody who has a chonky unit of the new plastic models. The old Stonetrolls just have a certain charme I would like to add to my collection without paying ludicrous second hand prices.

But who am I kidding? They probably end up being resin, even more expensive than the current 'bay listings - or both.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
See... that's just cutting your nose off to spite your face.
The "Rockgut Troggoths", despite their obnoxious name, are just plastic Stone Trolls. They even use the same poses, and the 'Evy Metal team painted them in much the same colours as the originals.
I would really hope that you can just use those rather than bringing back the (smaller) old sculpts.
It'd be like forbidding Goblin players from using the new Squig Riders and re-releasing the old metal ones.

you can always use what you want, but I doubt that the new models will fit the indented bases and rank up

and for now, those are all the old models, everything that was released after 8th or is incorporated into AoS is cut from TOW
there are the old 6th Edi metal Slayer, old Orc Chariots, no Night Goblins, Island of Blood Elves, old Tree Spirits, old Trolls etc.

big question here is will those be metal, resin or finecast and I am not really happy with any of those
not because metal or resin is bad, but that GW metal casting was bad by 8th (and if they just use the old moulds it won't be better) and their resin is not that good either

PS: and by the picture of the dwarf and Orc army we now can be sure that we really just start there were warhammer 8th ended, with a mix of models from different design periods that don't really mix/match together with some kits already being not good back than and one reason why it did not appeal to new players or veterans starting another army

 kodos wrote:
you can always use what you want, but I doubt that the new models will fit the indented bases and rank up

Mine are on square bases and they're fine.

 Darnok wrote:
While the article was surprisingly light on anything of substance, it made two solid points.

First, ond most importantly, the rules seem to be at the point where things are set in stone. Meaning the whole thing could be around the corner... or still a year away. Either way, we know about as much about the TOW rules as we know about LI - and that one is confirmed for next month.

The second thing I am actually not really happy about, and that is a massive change to the magic system. Apparently this is going to be like AoS/40K are handling magic/psychic things right now. I am not a fan.

Not really of worth for discussing the game system itself, but I like the look of the armies shown. They look chonky, without going overboard (as during 8th edition). And this...



... is refreshingly small in terms of WHF army sizes of old. Basically a handful of units a side, plus some additional warmachines or monsters... and it still looks like a proper game. I am a fan.

Anyway.

At least they actually posted something during July, after announcing an article for June and then staying silent without any mention whatsoever.

Small?

No, it's made to look small, the warboss on wyvern, trolls and boarboyz weren't excactly cheap with only 2 "normal infantry" units on the ork side being the squads of boys

Much the same on the imperium side, Goldhänders, demigryphs and steamtank alone would break into the 1000 pts with the HQ i rekon. With only a squad of spears and a squad of muskets. So for a 2000 pts game rough guestimate those forces are actually overly elite. FWIW weren't demigryphs and steamtanks not both rare choices aswell? AFAIK you only got 1 slot for rare at that point level if i remember correctly.

That'd be like being surprised that my Chaos warrior army is small on the field (mind it's easily at 3000pts), after seeing me put down 10 khorne chaos knights 5 chaos knights with lances and a sorcerer on manticor and then fielding 3 squads of chaos warriors and some barbarian chaff.

I get a real vaporware vibe from the way that article is written. Just saying.

How much detail do people really expect to get in these updates?

Look how vague the info is for LI's rule system is currently, and we're less than a month away from release.

one would hope from the battle image we no longer have laser guided cannons or that Wyvern isn't going to live long

unless GW do the usual battle report type play testing where they fire it at some chaff unit to try and be fluffy

allowing wider units actually is nice too, though perhaps "the entire front rank" fights is a bit much, shouldn't be more than what could contact front and maybe sides as an option (risking further flank charges maybe). given the small number of turns typically it could be better to go down the "everyone fights" route and in effect resolve the combat in one round with the loser pushed back and possible follow ups - i.e. the way many historical games do it.

regardless, guess we will see at some point

I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.