Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors. Pre orders. p.280.

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**leopard**

the models are probably whatever they could find on a shelf or in a box and blow the dust off

**.Mikes.**

Grail Seeker wrote:
The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

This. SOunds like 40k, and from what other people who play it tell me, AOS. It's not necesserily a bad thing in itself, we'll have to see the whole rules before any judgements can be made.

**JimmyWolf87**

leopard wrote:
the models are probably whatever they could find on a shelf or in a box and blow the dust off

And take the time to re-base.

**Mr_Rose**

.Mikes. wrote:
Grail Seeker wrote:
The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

This. SOunds like 40k, and from what other people who play it tell me, AOS. It's not necesserily a bad thing in itself, we'll have to see the whole rules before any judgements can be made.

I hope it’s more like 30k where you actually get to choose your spells/powers and there’s still some sort of test to use them without consequences. 10th edition 40K psychic anything is extremely lacklustre, basically boiling down to some things having an additional keyword that might interact with other things.

**Tsagualsa**

Mozzamanx wrote:
I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.

It's just a random flair photo, don't think too much of it - who knows when in the pipeline this was made, it might well be from before they even decided on the background setting. Also, they obviously don't give half a gak anyway, it's about selling expensified old models, they can have 'Karl Frantz' tattoed on their eyeballs for all they care. They'll just invent some lame nonsense, like great-great Grandfather Karl Franz the first and relegate the End-Times Karl to the Karl the Second or whatever.

**Fayric**

I notice how all the heroes and wizards in the article pictures are not part of units. That might be a clue to character functions. Or not.

**JimmyWolf87**

Fayric wrote:
I notice how all the heroes and wizards in the article pictures are not part of units. That might be a clue to character functions. Or not.

Personally I'm erring towards 'or not'. It's typically been how they photograph character models in WH:Fantasy since as far back as I can remember for display shots like these.

**leopard**

yup, they want the characters to stand out so they stand alone

**kodos**

and as they adjusted the rules to fit what they liked about the game it might be that characters standing out and not hiding in units is a change to the rules

**Just Tony**

Mozzamanx wrote:I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.

Your preference. I'm personally wanting a ton of those 6th Ed. Orc Boys...

**leopard**

have already got a largish O&G force, models with no current rules in AoS and models I'd like to use again

**The Phazer**

Yeah, I'm very happy for them to resell the plastic 6th ed boys sprue (though ideally the multipart one). It's a lovely kit and will go with what I have.

I'm not sure the presence of older or multi sprue models means much more than "they were in the cabinet and easily found for photography" at this point to be honest.

It will be interesting to see to what extent obvious like for like updates to the AOS range are permitted or encouraged and which are not. I would be... amazed if they genuinely expected people to use the older Lizardmen or Night Goblin models over more modern equivalents that work just as well. I suspect GW may well be less prescriptive about this that people think.

**KidCthulhu**

Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

**Undead_Love-Machine**

I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

Again, I think it's very unlikely.

Tastyfish wrote:

There were two ruined ones that could be combined to make something more intact - Witchfate Tor and Dreadstone Blight.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about those!

**Mr_Rose**

I reckon they’re not showing trays because current policy is that nothing makes it into product shots that they don’t actually sell, and someone decided that resurrecting the old movement tray kit was not worth the mould time.

**Tsagualsa**

Mr_Rose wrote:
I reckon they’re not showing trays because current policy is that nothing makes it into product shots that they don’t actually sell, and someone decided that resurrecting the old movement tray kit was not worth the mould time.

They also usually don't show cards, dice, templates and whippy-sticks or measures in these promo shots; it's just that, a shot to promote the world's best Citadel™ miniatures, and not an accurate representation of how a typical gaming table would look like. People read too much into it.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

They didn’t usually put trays under the models in fluff shots, because whilst some would be recreations for a Battle Report, none of the photos were from actual battles.

**Geifer**

Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

Again, I think it's very unlikely.

I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production, but with the outlook that they're not planning on having substantial refreshes in plastic, they'll need to bring back and keep around a lot of old kits if they intend to sell functional armies. They'll need staff and dust off metal casting machines. I don't find it unlikely that GW would want a wide range of metal models around to give those guys something to do instead of paying them to sit around half the time.

It's also unclear how much of The Old World ranges makes it into physical stores and how much is reserved for GW's webstore. It's conceivable that metal units are kept around in small numbers or even just cast up for an order.

**kodos**

I don't expect anything to hit stores except the Launch/Core/Starter Set, if at all and the rest being either made to order or limited release with one faction at the time

Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

Again, I think it's very unlikely.

first of all, those are the old studio models with new bases, some of those already been re-based twice as they went from 20mm square to 25mm round and now to 25mm square

next point is that they explicit show old models were newer ones are available, which would mean they are not going to sell the AoS stuff with square bases but rather re-release the old metal models (otherwise there is no point in showing them at all if the other models are available with square bases as they need to have them for promo pics on the boxes)

in addition, this is the full nostalgia experience for those that like the old stuff and have enough money to pay whatever GW asks to get the old metal models back
we have seen what GW asked for the Steel Legion made to order and I expect the same here
people asked to get the nostalgia so GW let them pay for it

**Voss**

KidCthulhu wrote:
Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

Noticed it and just shrugged it off as GW not selling 'Official Olde Worlde Movement Class Trays' at the moment.

**Andykp**

This game isn’t even out yet and it’s got the feel of a neckbeardy historical game where you are going to get comments that that style of armour didn’t exist in the setting and all that just like HH has gone. Really puts me off sadly, I might not be able to resist orc boar boyz though…..

**Queektail**

I admit the negativity on display is starting to get a bit irritating now, especially as we don't know all that much about rules, release date, etc. I'd much rather see positive discussion rather than all the doom and gloom.

I'm actually quite excited having read the article. The changes to the combat that they've mentioned sound intriguing and may potentially make combat a more tactical affair as opposed to the final editions obsession with minimizing frontage and abusing deathstar units.

The magic rules sound like they're more in line with how psychic abilities are treated in 10th edition 40K; being abilities and tricks that you pull of in various phases (movement, shooting, combat) instead of in a dedicated magic phase. How they treat casting and dispelling will determine the usefulness and how fun I think it will be; 1 spell per level per turn for example or something different. It does sound like they're trying to veer away from army destroying spells like Plague or flames of the phoenix and the tactical rock-paper-scissors that could screw people over if you didn't bring enough anit-magic along and found yourself fighting a level 4 and two level 2 wizards at 2000pts for example. Personally I'd love to see the different faction's mages and wizards focusing on different ways to buff their army based on their faction's character.

Releasing it late this year could be expensive for me, with epic in August and Tyranids in the autumn to budget for. I think next year would be safer for me

**Sarouan**

KidCthulhu wrote:
Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

It has nothing to do with the gameplay, they often use units without movement trays when they do display pictures. It was the same with old versions of Warhammer Battle when you looked at the illustrations of games in the rulebook.

**Mr Morden**

Andykp wrote:
This game isn’t even out yet and it’s got the feel of a neckbeardy historical game where you are going to get comments that that style of armour didn’t exist in the setting and all that just like HH has gone. Really puts me off sadly, I might not be able to resist orc boar boyz though…..

If you are going to have a game based around a setting with specific periods and lore - not bothering to care about it is IMO a BAD thing. Its not like Warhammer sells based on the gameplay.

They should be telling us about the period, talking about the various claimiants for the throne, dropping in the odd short story (they do them for mere campaigns in AOS) not just

"Yeah Er... here is a few old models we chucked on a table and yeah we are like writing some rules or something...ermm its gonna be great" that will do right boss?

**Grail Seeker**

If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

**Sgt. Cortez**

I must say reigning back psychic stuff is the first info that makes me kind of interested in the game. I never played WFB but read a lot of tactics about it and watched many battle reports (8th Edition) and what I took away from them was usually: you have these nicely lined up armies with supports, in turn 1 all the cannons kill all the monsters and in turn two all the sorcerors kill all the units. Without psykers you were screwed. When battle lines actually clash it's over pretty fast because of some artefacts or banners.
Coming from lotr this was pretty off putting for me, because there magic is more in a rare supporting role usually.

**Mr Morden**

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

THEY choose to set in a specific time period which is radically different to the normal one they used....if they then can;t be bothered to make the slighest effort to use it....well FK them

**Platuan4th**

Geifer wrote:

I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,

I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.

**Mozzamanx**

Mr Morden wrote:
Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I agree that setting it slightly before WFB 8E would have been a far better move because it allows WFB and AoS to exist in 2 separate timelines and mitigate some of the hostility towards the End Times.
As it is, it feels very much like we are seeing the Horus Heresy where everyone is wearing Mk7 and driving Razorbacks. I don't understand why you would try to tie 2 incompatible objectives, namely selling a historical setting AND contemporary models.

EDIT: Also in my analogy, the Traitors are still plastered in Loyalist iconography. And we've decided not to include Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Space Wolves or Thousand Sons on the basis that they are mangled before the setting really gets going and they probably won't contribute much in the grand scheme of things...

**Mr Morden**

Mozzamanx wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I agree that setting it slightly before WFB 8E would have been a far better move because it allows WFB and AoS to exist in 2 separate timelines and mitigate some of the hostility towards the End Times.
As it is, it feels very much like we are seeing the Horus Heresy where everyone is wearing Mk7 and driving Razorbacks. I don't understand why you would try to tie 2 incompatible objectives, namely selling a historical setting AND contemporary models.

I think its a mixture of lack of internal communication, laziness and likely moving objectives - as you say it just seems stupid to Choose to focuss on a different historical period but then do not use it and just use the old models from a different period....