Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

Practically, you don't need to, but it still matters for some people. It's not a rational belief, but it's a belief that exists nonetheless. 'Your dudes' will never be part of the official story, 'your dudes' will never receive a high production value product specifically displaying them, or a nice novel that shows you their exploits and adventures. It's a bit of a consumerist attitude, but in a hobby context, wanting nice products to consume in peace is a valid request.

 Londinium wrote:


One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win.

It's not really a claim, more like an official mood that was clear in 1st edition of Warhammer RPG (where it was litterally written as such). It was to set a "dark fantasy" tone, where heroes can only delay the inevitable and that their fight is, in the end, in vain. Yet they still cling to their small victories and be like points of light burning in the darkness for a short time.

Mood changed as years and editions pass on, sometimes being a bit lighter (like that edition with funny cartoon pictures in the rulebook), sometimes a bit darker. But the final victory for Chaos was always a recurrent theme.

Even in TOW, their choice of putting Asavar Khule's invasion so far in its "future" is certainly a way to keep having that Chaos threat of destruction still close to the setting of that time.

I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.

You may hate what they did with End Times, but I'm pretty sure that "Malekith was actually the true Phoenix King" was not made up on a whim for it, and that it was actually the underlining tragedy of the elves' civil war. The Khaine book wasn't the worst thought of the series, IMHO.

Here, since the focus will be more on high elves colonies in the Old World, I believe they won't push that much on that button, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't make hints at that in the story forward.

No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

Agreed. Just any wargame less silly than AoS would do by now. Set 500 years before end times or whatever. No different than playing 30k or star wars old republic or anything middle earth set before the war of the ring.

But that leaves the question why cant they just release the game. Its been years.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.

Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...

 Just Tony wrote:
No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

Oh man, I was so angry at that reveal in Khaine. The background in the 4th edition High Elves book was some of the best in the range, and then it all gets upended by telling us that Doctor Doom was the hero all along. Ridiculous.

Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.

Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...

Oh do give it over. It's a game, not a lifestyle.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.

Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...

Oh do give it over. It's a game, not a lifestyle.

Oh do give it over. You're a poster on a wargaming forum, not the minister of the bureau of controlling others' preferences and emotional attitudes.

 Just Tony wrote:
No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

Poor Matt Ward gets blamed needlessly. Gavin Thorpe, who was involved in Malekith a much longer time before, has also written the plot behind that.

But anyway, what I'm saying here for TOW is that GW is still the same company for its background. There are things that will clearly be written differently, but I don't think the main line won't differ that much. Especially for elves, whose history is set on a certain course from the beginning.

 Just Tony wrote:
Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence.

That's a very melodramatic way to describe a company discontinuing a rulebook.

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges

Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.

The High Elves have ignored any and all rules when it's convenient for them, where the Phoenix King is concerned. The "Can't be the previous king's son because the Everqueen!" was conveniently ignored with Caledor's kid. In short, Malekith got screwed out of the throne for political reasons (the "marry the Everqueen" tradition that was one excuse hadn't been established yet, since Malekith's dad had been the only Phoenix King at that point). Whether that was a smart decision on the part of the High Elves is something to debate elsewhere. It is unquestioned that Malekith during that time was brilliant. He was an excellent leader. He was also a skilled diplomat, as shown by his dealings with the dwarves. Based on his talents alone, he could have been an excellent ruler. The question is whether he ultimately would have gone bad anyway, or whether his resentment over getting pushed aside is what made him what he became. If the former, the High Elves made the right choice. If the latter, the petty jealousy of the High Elf princes led to disaster for their race.

I'm sorry but "Malekith was meant to be the Phoenix King (murdering the previous one was just a legitimate form of politics I guess) and would have been if he'd managed to stay in the fire for another second" was awful story telling.

Gav Thorpe is a legend and has written some great stuff, but when he was reduced to going "if you don't like it, maybe I should have just had the High Elves all die to Dwarfs" I think he knew it wasn't the best. (Or something like that, it was nearly 10 years ago.)

Anyway, I hope the reason for this time period is that we can get some new characters and stories. Maybe on a slightly smaller scale - fights over land rather than the fate of the world.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges

Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.

Or just give every army a war altar which boosts your guys so much its obligatory, with thenoption to drop it and take a general on a monstrous mount or papanquin instead. Pretty much centerpiece.

I really enjoyed the Tyrion and Teclis novels so some of the characters from that a few decades earlier would be great - even better if we get some novels /short stories alongside which they are doing for AOS and 40k on the Wc site so hope is there

On the other hand I really disliked alot of the 8th ed lore which lead into ET so hopefully its more like 6th ed!

Tyel wrote:
when he was reduced to going "if you don't like it, maybe I should have just had the High Elves all die to Dwarfs" I think he knew it wasn't the best. (Or something like that, it was nearly 10 years ago.)

It was "There will be as many Elves as the plot demands".

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

 Londinium wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

You are stressed over things that do not really matter. Let go of the lore and just enjoy playing the game.

 Laemos wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

You are stressed over things that do not really matter. Let go of the lore and just enjoy playing the game.

That's not how GW games work...

Mozzamanx wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

Or even some butterfly effect event that subtly but definitively makes the existing timeline divergent, however small that might be.
Does the world still end if Nagash was already awake and active, without needing ET1 to kill off Nehekhara?

GW is protecting the integrity of the AoS brand as their flagship fantasy setting product. They aren't going to retcon AoS into an alternate timeline. Give it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

In theory, they have unlimited free passes by going 'The Warp did it, it's an alternative reality, did you know that there's infinity of them?' but GW has said, uncharacteristically for them, that the End Times are a hard fact, there is no getting around them, and the community has to deal with it. Musings to the contrary are, at this point, the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'Neeneer neeneer, i cannot heeeear youuuuu'. If they ever want to re-negotiate on this, it will be very, very far from now, after a long period on just refusing to comment on the question.

This. I guess a segment of the community is just pretending the Warcom article that confirmed the inevitability of The End Times didn't happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

I think that's what puzzles me the most here... Because it sounds like we are indeed inspired by the same things, but you find knowing the ending to be limiting, while I look at all the space in between now and that ending and imagine how to fill it in.

The Old World isn't dealing with the settled past. We have only very broad strokes about the events of that time period and everything leading from there to the End Times. There is still plenty of room for inserting your own creations into the mix.

Hell, if the ending is the problem, then just ignore it. Bung your own Fassbender and McAvoy proxies in there and assume that the future is really just more of a set of guidelines than an actual rule. Sure, the setting was destroyed... but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't.

Indeed. Look at Horus Heresy - everyone knows the ending, yet the books consistently hit NYT's bestsellers list, and the game has only increased in popularity over time. No doubt some people are put off knowing the endings, but many are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Londinium wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.

Thats not necessarily true. Fictional universes always have a setting bible that is not for public knowledge that spells out details in the setting and lore that are not made explicitly clear. The existence of Malekith as the true Phoenix King would be something that could (and probably would) be spelled out in the setting bible, as its an important character fact that dictates how that character moves through the setting and interacts with other characters, regardless of whether or not it was ever intended for public real world knowledge. Something like the world having an impending destined/intended fixed ending *could* also be in the bible and would be more than just "mood music" (theres a reason why that "mood music" keeps getting brought up) - it would seem less likely to be included, but given the grimdark nature of the setting having notes in the bible that "chaos will inevitably win and destroy the world, this is an unavoidable outcome" would be very appropriate for inclusion because its sets the tone for the setting and the stories contained. That it happened during the reign of Karl Franz or was so close into the future of the present setting probably wasn't intended from the get-go however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

*citation needed.

I'd bet a paycheck that there was no decision made on whether Malekith was the true phoenix king or not upon his creation.

That is just how GW works. It was likely a conversation had when coming up with End Time stories and somebody said, "wouldn't it be cool if..."

I personally don't hate it, but a lot of people did and they took it upon themselves to blame Matt Ward above all others for it.

In either case, Dark Elves are not a part of this setting, at least to start. So elf simps can put away their torches at least for a little while.

They are part of the setting, just not the game. They are in not-north america minding their own business being hedonistic exiles and doing slaver stuff.

 Londinium wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.

End in theme yes. Game no.

The inevitable loss is whole bloody sense of setting. The ultimate core thing.

But what you seems to have missed is game was setting. Not advancing story with 1 side winning and game ends. It was supposed to be setting that doesn't have official end because you know what? Point is to sell models. For that game needs to continue.

But theme wise chaos win is inevitable. But gw wasn't originally planning to actually end game.

Setting. Not story.

chaos0xomega wrote:
They are part of the setting, just not the game. They are in not-north america minding their own business being hedonistic exiles and doing slaver stuff.

They're also a force that runs around on Aircraft Carriers Black Arks to raid literally everywhere around the globe, so if any force has a reasonable explanation for turning up wherever the plot needs them to the Dark Elves probably have the best one. They're not 'in focus' for reasons totally outside the lore and background, let's not kid ourselves.

Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.