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The strict divide of the miniature lines allows for different pricing for the skirmish game (AOS) and the mass battle game (TOW).
Thus, GW can ask 10 bucks per Wolfrider or Chosen CW for AOS and 5 bucks (or less hopefully) for slightly different versions of those models for TOW at the same time.

people doing strange things, and locally there are some people really hyped about TOW simply because they now can buy official models to play with the official rules again

buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game

tneva82 wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.

They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.

I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

I

Old World and AoS are the same scale, same design ethos and AoS even uses a large bunch of models from Old World. Lore wise they are connected too.

First, I disagree that the design ethos is the same, just look at the "old" Freeguild (aka Empire models) vs the new Dawnbringer humans.

Second of all, and probably more importantly- why should someone with an AOS army go back to playing Warhammer Fantasy the Frankenstein edition?
They can already play mass combat game with big monsters and powerful magic in AoS, there is no incentive beyond nostalgia if they're an older player with an army that will still work in TOW like skaven or dark elves.

Angronsrosycheeks wrote:

Old World and AoS are the same scale, same design ethos and AoS even uses a large bunch of models from Old World. Lore wise they are connected too.

First, I disagree that the design ethos is the same, just look at the "old" Freeguild (aka Empire models) vs the new Dawnbringer humans.

Second of all, and probably more importantly- why should someone with an AOS army go back to playing Warhammer Fantasy the Frankenstein edition?
They can already play mass combat game with big monsters and powerful magic in AoS, there is no incentive beyond nostalgia if they're an older player with an army that will still work in TOW like skaven or dark elves.

There are many players who switched to AOS solely because it was the official supported game. As in, they stated clearly that they didn't prefer the rules but followed along like an Apple customer the SECOND a new iphone or other Apple product is released. THEY would wind up coming back. Not to mention the influx of posters on reddit and other social media platforms who have just started gaming and are planning to go TOW whole hog upon its release.

Whether people switch will also likely depend on if people prefer the "big blob in the middle" style of AOS or the "rank and flank" style of WHFB.

Honestly I'm just eagerly awaiting the release of Kislev for TOW. I want the winged lancers to arrive!

Also, the chaos dwarf PDF army list so my Legion of Azgorh have a reason to exist again.

Gimme Cathay. I’ve wanted them to explore that part of the Old World since sometime around 1996…

Grail Seeker wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.

They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.

I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

I

ISTR that there will be the Army List rules for Skaven and the other side-piece armies. So we could play them, they just won't get a sexy new Army Book with OP rules like the main-line armies will. Eventually.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.

They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.

I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

I

ISTR that there will be the Army List rules for Skaven and the other side-piece armies. So we could play them, they just won't get a sexy new Army Book with OP rules like the main-line armies will. Eventually.

Yup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
people doing strange things, and locally there are some people really hyped about TOW simply because they now can buy official models to play with the official rules again

buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game

I feel like there's a bit of bias here against the player base. Consider that, broadly speaking, there is not a community which wants to play 8th edition. It just wasn't good. But then, what edition to play? Going back to prior ones cuts out new-to-8th units but also breaks a decent number of basic army mechanics, moving forward by modifying 8th involves trying to deal with a number of integral rules elements that were hated and/or just didn't generate fun gameplay.

So what happens is several sub-communities peddling their own version of how to play WHFB, which may or may not even be an improvement, the already tiny community is fractured, there's no consensus on which version to use, and regardless of which is picked there will be people who do not like certain things and refuse to play unless it is changed.

When GW publishes rules the community may not like them but it still provides an immediate standard that everyone can be onboard with--we will put up with a lot more we don't like just to have that. The value of getting the whole community on the same page is not to be understated.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.

They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.

I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

I

ISTR that there will be the Army List rules for Skaven and the other side-piece armies. So we could play them, they just won't get a sexy new Army Book with OP rules like the main-line armies will. Eventually.

Yeah. Tomb Kings and Bretonnia got the same treatment when AoS came out. Ask any of those players how it went. The unsupported armies will quickly become bland and underpowered and people will stop playing them. Then GW will eventually invalidate the rules they do have.

TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I feel like there's a bit of bias here against the player base. Consider that, broadly speaking, there is not a community which wants to play 8th edition. It just wasn't good.

your local scenes may vary but there are a lot of people who play 8th or want to play 8th, for reasons and arguments followed by that certain rules made the game the best of all because they prevented cheating or whatever
than there is 6th as a common standard, even with tournaments and events

if GW would release something you get a standard everyone follows, so there are no sub-communities of different versions of the game, but everyone is salty because the one game they agree to play is not good
and this is the reason why the leftovers are toxic, because the game they can agree to play is not the game they want or like

similar with 40k and AoS, you have people that want to play something else because it is not their game, but they keep playing to prevent the "fragmentation of the community" so no criticism allowed because we all must agree to play the game no matter if you like it or not for the health of the community

and I can already say that those that really liked 8th, the same as those who currently play 6th, won't be happy with whatever GW is going to release and the "shut up and play" won't create a healthy community but a toxic one

 Overread wrote:
TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more.

That is a fair difference. But I still think it is delusional to think the unsupported armies will be able to keep up with those receiving supplemental rules and kits after a book release or two.

Agree in general, but gotta remember tho that this is not a main studio release like 40K or AOS with rules drops every 5 minutes. It’s like HH which has a much slower rules release. Supplemental rules and a couple of book releases for each of the announced supported factions could take 5 years, not a few months.

 Overread wrote:
TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more.

Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

I, for one, am in the court of 'I really only got into Age of Sigmar because that's what was supported'. Chances are that once Old World comes out AoS will be a game I play with my son until he's old enough to figure out how ranks and flanks work.

 kodos wrote:

and I can already say that those that really liked 8th, the same as those who currently play 6th, won't be happy with whatever GW is going to release and the "shut up and play" won't create a healthy community but a toxic one

Being part of that community, I can tell you they actually are more pragmatic and less dramatic than you make them look like. Most are happy for the implying model range's return, and are waiting to see what the rules will be. If they're not to our taste, we'll simply do as we did for all these years : play with the rules we still play to these days.

Remember, players don't need GW (or anyone else)'s approval to play a game system. They just need like-minded people to play with...and communities for good ol'Battle didn't die or migrated to whatever other game system. They are still around.

And I'm a member of the "8th edition rules". Don't listen to Ninth, he doesn't know what he's talking about. More seriously, everyone has their favourite edition. Hell some still even play the very first edition of Battle, the one that was more suited to roleplaying games with a dungeon master (which is why they still play it, most likely ). There's no real "best edition ever", it's just a matter of personnal taste.

yeah, fully agree, but there is also the part were "others" come in.
if the new game is not for you and your group, you keep playing the one version you like but people will be around telling you that you must play the "official" version to prevent the fragmentation of the community (same people that once told everyone why they must play ninth age no matter if they like it or not)

but most of us are too old now to play something they don't like just because it is official version

Angronsrosycheeks wrote:
I am still unconvinced there will be big enough lateral movement of players from AoS to TOW, especially when they factor in that TOW will likely draw in a lot of the people who spent the last 8 years online being toxic about AoS the game and the community.
Will be interesting to see what happens..

Well, some spent 8 years being toxic about AoS, and some stopped after a year or two and moved on to other things, building up other companies to (try and) rival GW.

 kodos wrote:
people doing strange things, and locally there are some people really hyped about TOW simply because they now can buy official models to play with the official rules again

buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game

I think even for GW events TO are generally okay with converted armies using other model ranges as long as it's clear and makes sense. People have made 40k Space Marine armies using Stormcast conversions for years and that's fine. I don't expect anyone to have an issue with using, say, newer Looncult models to represent similar Night Goblin units as long as everything is on the correct base size, and I expect everyone will use the new Seraphon to represent Lizardmen. GW may even encourage such a thing formally - I expect they would rather WFB TOW players buy new AOS models than use their old ones when there's a big difference in the quality of the models as there is there.

Seelenhaendler wrote:
The strict divide of the miniature lines allows for different pricing for the skirmish game (AOS) and the mass battle game (TOW).
Thus, GW can ask 10 bucks per Wolfrider or Chosen CW for AOS and 5 bucks (or less hopefully) for slightly different versions of those models for TOW at the same time.

Ah... this is GW. If anything they'll charge MORE for TOW models...

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

Unless you're weak and unfit to rule

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

Unless you're weak and unfit to rule

For same reason in AoS 1.0 that you'd grow a beard if you were playing dwarves.

AoS gave you bonuses for "fun" stupid stuff cause that's the kind of system it was. It was like Magic the Gathering "Unhinged" only without the serious game alongside to balance it out

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

Unless you're weak and unfit to rule

Don't drop the soap dice!

kodos wrote:yeah, fully agree, but there is also the part were "others" come in.
if the new game is not for you and your group, you keep playing the one version you like but people will be around telling you that you must play the "official" version to prevent the fragmentation of the community (same people that once told everyone why they must play ninth age no matter if they like it or not)

but most of us are too old now to play something they don't like just because it is official version

Absolute truth. Had an AOS player pull that exact crap with us when we were running a 6th Ed. game at the FLGS.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Overread wrote:
TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more.

Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

I, for one, am in the court of 'I really only got into Age of Sigmar because that's what was supported'. Chances are that once Old World comes out AoS will be a game I play with my son until he's old enough to figure out how ranks and flanks work.

And you're far from the only one, which proves my point.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

Unless you're weak and unfit to rule

Maybe to pick up dice or minis that fell off the table?

 The Phazer wrote:

 kodos wrote:
people doing strange things, and locally there are some people really hyped about TOW simply because they now can buy official models to play with the official rules again

buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game

I think even for GW events TO are generally okay with converted armies using other model ranges as long as it's clear and makes sense. People have made 40k Space Marine armies using Stormcast conversions for years and that's fine. I don't expect anyone to have an issue with using, say, newer Looncult models to represent similar Night Goblin units as long as everything is on the correct base size, and I expect everyone will use the new Seraphon to represent Lizardmen. GW may even encourage such a thing formally - I expect they would rather WFB TOW players buy new AOS models than use their old ones when there's a big difference in the quality of the models as there is there.

All of the armies with new aos models aren't being supported for the old world, they'll get day one pdfs and that's it. Seems like a dumb decision to me

We can really only guess to their thought process.

Perhaps it is due to corporate politics. They don't want to actively pull from AoS to Fantasy after all the pain they went through to launch AoS by killing Fantasy. You could also make the case that it is to avoid new customer confusion with or perhaps so they don't' have to add square bases back into the skaven/DE/undead kits.

Best case scenario, The Old World does very well and they reverse course at some point.

The Old World is seemingly targeted at older/ex-fantasy players i.e. folks who likely have a modicum of hobby experience. Much as factions like the Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Vampires and Skaven aren't getting any immediate support beyond the PDF lists, there's absolutely going to be some direct usage of AoS models in The Old World by that playerbase, especially when there's ranges like the newer Seraphon who only need a base swap to port straight back into Old World.

JimmyWolf87 wrote:
The Old World is seemingly targeted at older/ex-fantasy players i.e. folks who likely have a modicum of hobby experience.

Which is funny as you can find tons of social media posts from new players who've never touched Fantasy who are asking about starting new forces for TOW. I think it's safe to say we can't rule out anything here. Whether GW is marketing it to grognards or not, the customer base is proving to be more diverse.