Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 frankelee wrote:
I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.

It was lore friendly given the Ice Witches importance in Kislev and they were very similar to the Sisters of Avelorn.

They were approved by GW for Total War Warhammer and so are extremely unlikely not to appear in the Kislev army book if and when it appears.

Warhammer is not all nameless nobodies hunting skaven in the sewers - esp Fantasy Batlle with Greater Daemons, Dragons, Screaming Bells, Coven Thrones, etc etc

 caladancid wrote:

Spoiler:

chaos0xomega wrote:
It occurred to me that while they are hyping "big box" regiment kits containing a full size unit in a single box, the previewed foot knights appear to come in a box of 10. On the one hand they are a "small elite unit" which make sense in a 10 man box, on the flip side, thats not really a "regiment", is it?

tneva82 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.

Ah. So ego prevents admitting being wrong and you'll keep repeating 2025 even when it's in stores front of you january 2024.

Off to ignore list. Not worth my time to read your posts more.

Yeah, totally bizarre temper tantrum or whatever for this guy to be taking. They literally said it will be one of the first releases out of the door in early 2024. If GW is willing to confirm that then its as good as a done deal, only way it gets pushed back is if they have to last minute destroy all the rulebooks and reprint them like they did with LI.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay? Tomb Kings? Those were the releases they teased to excite gamers like me.

If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.

All signs point to "no". As has been discussed ad nauseum, this seems to be a "soft launch" focused on getting the rules out and getting people playing rather than a full on hard launch with all new models and content like we've come to expect from Horus Heresy, AoS, 40k, etc. New core rulebook plus rules for the 9 or whatever core factions plus pdfs legends army lists for the 7 factions that are cut from the game. Return of the legacy model kits for those core factions plus a literal handful of new plastic kits for Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and a bunch of new resin heroes and whatnot, followed by a slow dribble of new plastics/resins for some of the other factions. Theres no timeline on Kislev or Cathay or anything really substantial beyond that, I suspect we may see a substantial release of new models for Kislev or another faction late next year or possibly in the 2025 timeframe. TBH I don't think Cathay is coming for quite some time, possibly several years.

This is what makes no sense to me. Back in 2020, GW said that bear models were coming to TOW. Here is the link so you can't deny it. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/

Three years later, even you admit that appears to be as good as gone. And yet, you and others still take and defend GW's word as good and react so strongly to those who rightfully question them. Baffling.

Bizarrely insisting the game isn’t coming out until 2025 when we’ve been told it’s like 3 months away isn’t ‘questioning’, it’s being obstinate.

Love the foot knight unit and not a Bret player. Glad confirmed to be coming early 2024 so next 6 months.

What's the issue with some characters being resin?

They aren't a million miles off the price of the plastic ones

Vorian wrote:
What's the issue with some characters being resin?

They aren't a million miles off the price of the plastic ones

The issue is that they are resin not plastic. Most people like plastic not resin for their minis for many reasons.

Games Workshop and Forgeworld are both notorious for the shoddy quality of their resin.

The hero on Pegasus is beautiful, and we can finally see the complete figurine. My only complaint is that I would have liked to see three different Pegasus heads and an alternative wing position to differentiate the three heroes.
The foot knights are fine, maybe a bit too detailed for my taste.

There's nothing special to say about the resin figurine.

But let's be honest, the pose and details of the old models are not up to par, and clearly, that will prevent me from making an impulsive purchase. It would have been good not to relaunch something that is 15 years old with a more limited but high-quality range (like the Cities of Sigmar) and not end up with mediocre basic troops.

 caladancid wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
It occurred to me that while they are hyping "big box" regiment kits containing a full size unit in a single box, the previewed foot knights appear to come in a box of 10. On the one hand they are a "small elite unit" which make sense in a 10 man box, on the flip side, thats not really a "regiment", is it?

tneva82 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.

Ah. So ego prevents admitting being wrong and you'll keep repeating 2025 even when it's in stores front of you january 2024.

Off to ignore list. Not worth my time to read your posts more.

Yeah, totally bizarre temper tantrum or whatever for this guy to be taking. They literally said it will be one of the first releases out of the door in early 2024. If GW is willing to confirm that then its as good as a done deal, only way it gets pushed back is if they have to last minute destroy all the rulebooks and reprint them like they did with LI.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay? Tomb Kings? Those were the releases they teased to excite gamers like me.

If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.

All signs point to "no". As has been discussed ad nauseum, this seems to be a "soft launch" focused on getting the rules out and getting people playing rather than a full on hard launch with all new models and content like we've come to expect from Horus Heresy, AoS, 40k, etc. New core rulebook plus rules for the 9 or whatever core factions plus pdfs legends army lists for the 7 factions that are cut from the game. Return of the legacy model kits for those core factions plus a literal handful of new plastic kits for Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and a bunch of new resin heroes and whatnot, followed by a slow dribble of new plastics/resins for some of the other factions. Theres no timeline on Kislev or Cathay or anything really substantial beyond that, I suspect we may see a substantial release of new models for Kislev or another faction late next year or possibly in the 2025 timeframe. TBH I don't think Cathay is coming for quite some time, possibly several years.

This is what makes no sense to me. Back in 2020, GW said that bear models were coming to TOW. Here is the link so you can't deny it. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/

Why would I deny it? I just stated I expect Kislev to be a follow-on launch. If you scroll past the last few pages I've been pointing out that Kislev is narratively present in what we know to be the setting of the first wave of releases in. Hell, thats not even the only article confirming that Kislev would be coming to The Old World, theres 5 or 6 total discussing it.

Three years later, even you admit that appears to be as good as gone. And yet, you and others still take and defend GW's word as good and react so strongly to those who rightfully question them. Baffling.

Here's the problem, and I'll make it as simple as I can for you - I'm not dense and I'm not impatient, and I know how to exercise common sense. It probably also helps that I work in manufacturing and have had enough interaction with GW insiders to know how ridiculously long it takes them to produce pretty much anything, and understand full well that even without the pandemic, ERP, and supply chain issues that GW has been faced with it would have been unlikely for Kislev to have been released within a 3 year timeframe. Nor did GW promise you that Kislev or the game would be released in 2023 - in fact, it was pretty unlikely to begin with as they announced the game at the end of 2019 and said to expect "three or more" years before release, and that was just before we were hit by a global pandemic (just 3 months later) that generally disrupted business timelines globally by about 12-18 months on average.

Point is, I can read a warcom article about what are variously labeled as "main factions", "core factions", and "returning factions", etc. and understand that this doesn't preclude the existence of factions which are "minor factions", "secondary factions", or "new factions", etc. such as Kislev. I can look at a newly drawn map of the Border Princes region created for the game and notice that they created some entirely new principalities, one of which is Kislev influenced, and infer from that that it wasn't a coincidence nor an accident and that this is the narrative opening needed for the inclusion of Kislev in an area not traditionally associated with Kislev. I can read an article that explicitly says that Kislev will be coming to the tabletop, and understand that this doesn't mean that they are first in line. I can read an article that says that Kislev bear minis are still a long way off, and understand that means that it will take time for them to come.

That you are "questioning" (thats certainly a polite word to describe the behavior) GW is a "you" problem, not a "me" problem, nor a "GW" problem. GW never promised you that Kislev would be first out of the gate, nor that they would be a big player or an important faction or a core faction nor be available on launch, nor be featured in a starter box, etc. If thats what you thought was going to happen or expected, thats a "you" problem. GW has told us that Kislev will be featured in the game, and thats enough for me to know that they will, in fact, be featured in the game when they are done and ready to do so, in whatever form they take. GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it. GW knows what its production timetables look like and generally has a solid picture of its product pipeline looking at least 6 months out. If they are telling us early 2024 its because it actually is coming in early 2024. At this stage their development on launch product is coming to a close, molds have been or are being cut, books are going through final layout and revision, etc. This isn't a situation in which they say "early 2024" and then a year from now they say "just kidding, we actually had nothing done at the time and we were just overly ambitious and thought we could start it up and get it done in a few days like when we were cramming for our exams at school".

In general, I would say the biggest problem that a large segment of this community has had is a failure to manage expectations from the very beginning. GW was pretty upfront that this would not be a continuation of WHFB but instead a whole new game in a semi-familiar setting, and it was pretty clear early on this was being headed up by forgeworld/specialist studio rather than the "main studio" which meant that there would be resource limitations with regards to what they could realistically accomplish, etc. Likewise they were very clear it would take *years* to get it out the door. There were obviously going to be changes and limitations and things would not go the way that the majority seemed to want/expect. If you go back far enough into dakka history you will see that I was involved in some pretty heated and acrimonious debates about what to expect from the very start, and while there were some things I was certainly wrong about (did not expect to see High Elves, I figured Vampire Counts and Skaven would be included, I was also lobbying hard for this to possibly be a return of Warmaster instead of WHFB, etc. and expected the launch to be Empire-focused with two factions made up of new Empire kits fighting the civil war/three emperors conflict), there were many more things I was right on the money about (no lizardmen, no dark elves, set in a different era that limits the presence of certain units and technologies, size/scale differences vs old WHFB - particularly with regards to base sizes, etc.). There were quite a few of us who urged caution and recommended that people not run out and buy an army of legacy kits and start building/painting stuff up so far in advance of release until it became clearer what was going on, but there were many more who ignored us, told us we were obtuse or whatever, and went out and did it anyway - those are the people who are now the most pissed off and angry about TOW, and its overwhelmingly their own fault for jumping to conclusions (as such I have zero sympathy nor pity for them).

Then there are those people who were sensible enough not to go out and buy a new army for the game without knowing anything at all about it, but still jumped to conclusion and had expectations that reality does not meet. Many of these people inferred information into statements and articles that they didn't actually say and created understandings of the situation for themselves that go completely against established precedent for how GW usually conducts business, etc. Sucks that these people were let down by the fantasy they created for themsleves in their own head, but again thats a "you" problem, not a "me" or a "GW" problem. The only thing you can really blame GW for is not being more explicitly clear in its communication about what to expect, but I don't think even GW had a solid picture of that until relatively recently - and even then what are they supposed to do when a large segment of the community and fanbase has basically just been making gak up whole clothe out of thin air for the past 3 years about what this game would and wouldn't be, evne when GW has been explicit and direct in trying to communicate something different?

So, back to your original statement - no, I'm not going to admit that Kislev is "as good as gone", because I never expected them to show up so soon to begin with in the first place, nor do I understand the recent lack of mention of them to mean that they have been shelved or abandoned. Likewise I am not "defending GW" so much as I am attacking the ridiculous, unreasonable, and illogical mental gymnastics that some are using to distort reality.

GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it.

😄😄😁.

I dont know where reality ends and satire begins anymore.

I believe, from my 3 decades of consumer experience, that such a launch, if it happens, will be very limited compared to even just a pdf Ravening horde/6th MRB reprint and old sets for the 9 factions they have promised. From what they've shown, it seems doubtfull there can by a full release in a few months. Sorry, but thats just from what we've been shown and told.

Time will show.

I don't see why you're so cynical about it. GW usually gives us even less of a window to work with when they are launching a new edition of 40k or AoS, and those usually come with a lot more product than they have promised us for TOW. Now they're giving us a 3-6 month window with the promise of not having to release very much of anything and you're acting like its some impossible task.

Get real.

I imagine the release will be something like this in theory:

March (just as an example): The Old World Starter Set (I'm guessing Tomb Kings vs. Brets), Old World Rulebook as well as 4-5 Plastic Boxes per faction of mostly old miniatures. This will be accompanied by made to order heroes/finecast stuff from GW and some new resins from FW.

April: Two other faction battalion boxes, plus 4-5 kits per faction and associated made to order, etc......


I don't really see that being that incredible to be honest. I mean the the launch weekend release will likely be smaller than the Space Marine wave they just launched and will require much less production/distribution. That Space Marine wave probably sold more kits than the entire Old World Range will in its entire first year.

Considering GW has had years to make stock of the old kits they are rereleasing, are not releasing that many new ones, and that TOW will likely be a pretty niche game and not require a massive volume of kits to be produced like 40k - I just don't see why there is any reason they won't be able to get it done.

My bar for ToW is set so low, the theory you propose would make me happy.

I just want to play my old armies in a rule set that's not 8th and I want to get some old Empire & Bret plastics, plus a completely new model here and there. If they throw me a bone and rerelease Forsaken, I will be over the moon.

Good to finally have an idea of what sort of launch the game will have. I hope they bring back grail pilgrims too, and the empire archer kit. The Pegasus is really nice too, lots of options

 triplegrim wrote:

GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it.

😄😄😁.

I dont know where reality ends and satire begins anymore.

I believe, from my 3 decades of consumer experience, that such a launch, if it happens, will be very limited compared to even just a pdf Ravening horde/6th MRB reprint and old sets for the 9 factions they have promised. From what they've shown, it seems doubtfull there can by a full release in a few months. Sorry, but thats just from what we've been shown and told.

Time will show.

Earlier when you said congregation, I thought it was funny. I did not think it would be unironically proven true in the same few hours.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Games Workshop and Forgeworld are both notorious for the shoddy quality of their resin.

Maybe in large kits where there's potential for warping. I've got more Forgeworld resin than a sensible person should have and I don't think I've ever had a problem with any of them.

Finecast always had bubbles in various places which needed fixing, but thankfully that's not what we're getting.

The things like the Treb and Unicorn do have the potential to be priced insanely, but the single normal characters should hopefully be ok.

Why are people dubious over an early 2024 release? All GW has to do is publish the main rulebook, pump out a few limited release army boxes and offer a lot of old stuff over direct only/made to order. The game may not be complete, with every model / army playable out of the gate, but there'll be a game out there.

Warhammer Community wrote:These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures... to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.

I wonder if this points the way to a game scaled to very large units like 8th? It almost certainly points to paying a premium GW tag for old kits, justification being that there are quite a few more than the 10 in a kit you'd get in other ranges.

Chuffed with the Brettonian kits they have shown off though, the new plastics look superb and the footknights are up there with the pick of the bunch in today's reveals as far as I'm concerned (The Dragon and Kurnoth were amazing as well).

Looking forward to see what they've done with Tomb Kings next, I've been pleasantly surprised so far. (bar was set quite low to be fair hehe)

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Why are people dubious over an early 2024 release? All GW has to do is publish the main rulebook, pump out a few limited release army boxes and offer a lot of old stuff over direct only/made to order. The game may not be complete, with every model / army playable out of the gate, but there'll be a game out there.

I think its because there's this optimistic idea GW are going to release this with all the factions. Which as you suggest, won't happen.
But then GW have been loathe to put out rules without models for ages - so it feels like a strange sort of stuation.

My expectation for the release would be something like:

Early 2024: Rules and "Not-A-Starter Box".
A month, probably 2 later: Brets.
A month or two after that: TKs.
Two or three months later, next faction.

I think it could take 18 months to 2 years for all the "core factions" or whatever to be sort of available to buy. Maybe that's too slow. But I can't see them pushing 40-50 kits out (old or new) in a say six months. It would use up too much bandwidth unless they have nothing else across their other games.

 frankelee wrote:
I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.

They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.

chaos0xomega wrote:
GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it.

Far be it from us to question the word of our God, Games Workshop Group PLC (Subhanahu wa ta’ala), but they do push back release dates. That is a thing that happens.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
New foot knights are the star of this show for me.

I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.

There's very little visual difference between a man and a woman of the same height in most armors. The padding underneath goes a long way toward hiding feminine curves. Unless it's specifically configured to highlight her (ahem) feminine assets or she takes off her helmet, even a pretty busty woman in a breastplate won't be all that obvious.

Consider Eowyn in the LOTR movies. Yes, we know it's her, we recognize her face. But is she not OBVIOUSLY a woman until she takes off her helmet.

So my army features several female knights, even if you can't tell which ones they are, and you can't prove otherwise.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Games Workshop and Forgeworld are both notorious for the shoddy quality of their resin.

Forgeworld will send you replacements if the quality is bad though. You just need to send pics and proof that you bought it from them, and they'll likely send you the full model again (or at least the part) and let you keep the defect sculpt. It's not like you're stuck with a shoddy model and can't do anything about it.

I'm more concerned about the foot knight kit. It could be that the boxset will have multiple identical kits, but I can't help but notice that two of the knights have the same helmets (the bull heads). And the knight with the standard has the same body as the knight on the back right. I hope the kit has ten unique bodies, not five.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
New foot knights are the star of this show for me.

I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.

There's very little visual difference between a man and a woman of the same height in most armors. The padding underneath goes a long way toward hiding feminine curves. Unless it's specifically configured to highlight her (ahem) feminine assets or she takes off her helmet, even a pretty busty woman in a breastplate won't be all that obvious.

Consider Eowyn in the LOTR movies. Yes, we know it's her, we recognize her face. But is she not OBVIOUSLY a woman until she takes off her helmet.

So my army features several female knights, even if you can't tell which ones they are, and you can't prove otherwise.

Most of the Riders in the movie were women! It was the only way to get enough skilled horse riders.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Why are people dubious over an early 2024 release?

It is trolling, nothing more.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 frankelee wrote:
I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.

They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.

Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.

 GaroRobe wrote:
Forgeworld will send you replacements if the quality is bad though. You just need to send pics and proof that you bought it from them, and they'll likely send you the full model again (or at least the part) and let you keep the defect sculpt. It's not like you're stuck with a shoddy model and can't do anything about it.

For the most part that's true, I did have one model that was crap and emailed FW about it and they said they had run out of stock, so my only option was to return the one I had for a refund or just deal with the miscast.

 infinite_array wrote:


Most of the Riders in the movie were women! It was the only way to get enough skilled horse riders.

It's the beards.

Or is that just dwarves?

Vorian wrote:
What's the issue with some characters being resin?

They aren't a million miles off the price of the plastic ones

There's quite a few reasons. Not liking resin is one. Modern FW models are made from 3D printed masters and after getting a couple of models with 3D printer lines on them, my desire to buy more FW has significantly diminished. For people who don't like in the UK and US, Forge World can take fecking ages to deliver. I think my last FW order was something like 4 weeks delivery time. While bubbles and miscasts aren't as common as they were with Finecast, they're still a thing. Also some people like to buy from independent stores, and FW is direct only.

Convincing someone to get into a game when a portion of the range is FW only is far more difficult than if it's not.

 GaroRobe wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Games Workshop and Forgeworld are both notorious for the shoddy quality of their resin.

Forgeworld will send you replacements if the quality is bad though. You just need to send pics and proof that you bought it from them, and they'll likely send you the full model again (or at least the part) and let you keep the defect sculpt. It's not like you're stuck with a shoddy model and can't do anything about it.

I'm more concerned about the foot knight kit. It could be that the boxset will have multiple identical kits, but I can't help but notice that two of the knights have the same helmets (the bull heads). And the knight with the standard has the same body as the knight on the back right. I hope the kit has ten unique bodies, not five.

Spoiler:

The same body is doubled up in the sword armed unit too, and trying to peer through the nest of helmet decorations and weapons, I think I can see repeated details further back in the unit as well. Looks like 5 bodies.

@Vulcan I think the other poster was referring to the feminine looking head on one of the new foot knights.