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Well, it's too early to get a real feel for the system but I live everything I've read. I might actually start to care

So far I just hope they haven't restricted their design space too much with limiting spells to 6 categories

Voss wrote:
In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.

I had similar thoughts.

To try and stab at my issue. The problem isn't an activatable reroll 1s aura as a gameplay mechanic. Although we know from past experience this is something which starts small and then spreads everywhere.

My issue is more this this strange... language of design.
Sort of have a similar view on 10th edition 40k.
"We are designing a whole new game/new edition". But the reality is... not really. They are sort of taking something that was written in say Spanish - and now writing it in Italian. Its different - but not so different. I'm not sure they've thought everything through as a result.

Its that challenge of translation. There's conveying the poetry of phrases in another language, versus going through word by word in a dictionary. In my view a good translation has to be a thing in itself.

Now clearly this issue will vary. Some would have been happy if GW had taken the 6th edition rulebook and said "that's it, those are the rules." I'm not so sure myself - but I just hope the rules have been considered in a holistic sense. I'm less concerned for example about the Bretonnian Horn being overpowered - and more this idea of "this was in the game, so it has to be in ours. Just stick it in and move on to the next issue."

SU-152 wrote:
Units can be Driven Back, that's very very interesting. I hope it is like in Warmaster.

The more it's like Warmaster the less I'm interested. Driven Back was taken from 3rd Ed. WFB.




Weird, I'm getting the strangest sense of deja vu...

Edit WHOOPS

Clicked on the wrong thread.

But I will say my interest in Old World is kind on the down low until I see some unique Marienburg units for the Empire for the civil war they got going on

Cataphract wrote:
A Feast to Remember

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/31/dear-reader-the-honour-of-your-presence-is-requested-at-a-feast-most-magnificent/

FEC goes in AoS, surely?

Heh, I was going to post that here as a joke, but figured that there would be some who would take it seriously as a Bretonnian thing and not understand the FEC connection.

Removal of magic phase is a bit sad. I guess we'll go the AoS / Mordheim way (roll 2 die and add their result, if the total is equal or higher than Casting Value, then the spell is passed - here, article done ).

I'm not even sure that it's a question of efficiency, to be honest. Magic phase in old Battle was a mini game in its own, and I believe that was a big part of the charm of Warhammer Battle in comparison to other game systems. I still remember the versions where we were using cards for winds of magic (when you may not even cast a spell in your turn because you draw only dispel cards and didn't have a rule allowing you to use them as power cards ).

Well, I played enough AoS and Mordheim games so that it's not a big deterrent to me for TOW, but a page has definitively been turned here.

Sarouan wrote:
Removal of magic phase is a bit sad. I guess we'll go the AoS / Mordheim way (roll 2 die and add their result, if the total is equal or higher than Casting Value, then the spell is passed - here, article done ).

I'm not even sure that it's a question of efficiency, to be honest. Magic phase in old Battle was a mini game in its own, and I believe that was a big part of the charm of Warhammer Battle in comparison to other game systems. I still remember the versions where we were using cards for winds of magic (when you may not even cast a spell in your turn because you draw only dispel cards and didn't have a rule allowing you to use them as power cards ).

Well, I played enough AoS and Mordheim games so that it's not a big deterrent to me for TOW, but a page has definitively been turned here.

Funny, I wasn’t a fan of the magic phase for the same reason you liked it. It felt too much like “ok, we’ll stop playing this wargame to play a card game/dice game over here” at times.

MaxT wrote:

Funny, I wasn’t a fan of the magic phase for the same reason you liked it. It felt too much like “ok, we’ll stop playing this wargame to play a card game/dice game over here” at times.

Well, it was certainly more relevant if both sides have sorcerers or they don't involve dwarves.

I'm not saying it was without flaws, I understand why they removed it. I'm just saying it was one of the characterizations of Warhammer Battle, and now it's gone for good. That's why I'm sad to see it away.

I was wondering earlier if TOW models from FW would be available to order on the GW Site, and now both websites have merged lol

I know FW resin isn’t everyone’s favorite material, but I wonder if easier access to FW models will improve some people’s morale

I get what you're saying Sarouan and I'm not in complete disagreement however I'm waiting to see if it's the 2d6 per spell casting method or if each wizard generates their own power dice at the start of your turn and you use those dice to cast powers throughout the turn.

Hopefully it's the later which would add a lot of decision making to the turn. Wizard level might even cap how many dice you can throw at a spell too, like that to be included.

 kodos wrote:

Voss wrote:

No, I like random charges. Maybe not bugnuts random, but from both a battlefield perspective and a game perspective, its just better.
I don't miss the old WFB days of people knowing to move 1.255" inches back to stay exactly out of charge range of their opponents and being able to sweep opponents that don't know to precisely partition and mentally map the battlefield.

and how does random charges change that?
so you just stay 0,01" out of range whatever the maximum number of the random roll is and be able to sweep opponents who don't know or are just don't care with sometimes someone doing a risky roll and gets the maximum for little effect

of course it helps players because they can blame the dice for the outcome of the game
which is something I dislike in general, I want to play against the opponent and not against the game and not need lucky rolls that decide the outcome

so if random charge ranges are there, I am out as well

Fair. If random charge ranges are gone, I'm out and will stick with 8th. I HATED the quarter-inch just outside charge range shuffle that consumed so many of my sixth and seventh edition games. And it made it hard for new players to get in. They'd play a few games, get smoked because they couldn't figure out the thin line between in and out of charge range and lose horribly, and quit.

Or they'd learn one of many cheats people used to pre-measure charge distance, which is no better.

Sure, you can stay just outside max charge range. I move up to where your infantry needs a 10 to charge, but my cavalry needs a 7. Go ahead, risk that charge. If you make it I'll be the first to congratulate you. Back up 3" just to stay out of charge range? Go ahead, surrender the center of the map and watch me surround you. It's about learning how to manage probability and risk... something real generals also had to deal with.

But far be it from me to tell you that the way I prefer to play is the way you SHOULD play. One of us will like TOW, one of us won't, and that's okay.

(Barring the fairly high probability GW will break TOW sufficiently that NEITHER of us like it... )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
I can't see GW going digital only - they make so much income off their books. Plus for a lot of people miniature games are a way to disconnect from the online.

GW aren't a small firm, they can afford to invest into a wave of printed books and expect them to sell. It's not like smaller wargame firms where a book is a major cost for them that is a huge financial risk if it fails to sell

I CAN see them putting the rules online, and charging hundreds of dollars for a 'collector' quality rulebook... that becomes obsolete every couple years so they can sell another one.

Kodos is a Kings of War fanatic, so he's out with or without random charges anyway.

Random charges are mostly hated by players who want "skill" to matter (they're usually tournament-friendly and like to think of themselves as good players) while they are liked by players who don't care about that kind of stuff (and understand that games using dice have a "luck factor" that is impossible to remove unless you remove dice in all of their mechanisms, anyway).

Besides, when people talk about "skill" in wargames like Battle or KoW, it's usually more about list building than strategy and tactics. It's mostly there so that petulant and arrogant elitist players feel like they're above the "filthy casuals". If they're out, I say good riddance - that's something I never missed when Battle died and all these "That Guy" tournament players went to other systems to plague them.

Personally I think the managing risk from random charges is a big part of being a good player. You can say it "reduces skill" to have it but it's weird that the same people end up on top in 40k and AoS consistently without that extra skill level.

I personally hope random stays. As a dwarf player in the days of yore I HATED fixed charges and the change in 8th (for that) brought me so much joy.

As for the rules previewed so far I'm liking what I'm seeing.

The local toxic WHFB scene indeed quit overnight the moment random charge ranges came in.

Random charge distances do still give you the opportunity to stay outside of charge range anyways- it's just a greater distance. If you decide to take your chances and stay inside that distance and get charged, that's not randumb, that's experiencing the consequences of taking a risk.

I also have no love for the 'I'm going to put my models juuuuuust far enough away that you 100% can't charge me but I can 100% charge you in my next turn' routine. And forbidding pre-measuring has never been a viable solution or, frankly, a good mechanic to begin with.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The local toxic WHFB scene indeed quit overnight the moment random charge ranges came in.

Yeah. I even offered that we could agree that units were 0,2 inches out of charge range if he would just fething place his units, but no. It was as if some players enjoyed masturbating the movement of their trays 8,2 inches away from yours twenty thirty little shuffles before being satisfied.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The local toxic WHFB scene indeed quit overnight the moment random charge ranges came in.

YMMV, here the toxic tournament players were the only ones that stayed

Sarouan wrote:
Removal of magic phase is a bit sad. I guess we'll go the AoS / Mordheim way (roll 2 die and add their result, if the total is equal or higher than Casting Value, then the spell is passed - here, article done ).

I'm not even sure that it's a question of efficiency, to be honest. Magic phase in old Battle was a mini game in its own, and I believe that was a big part of the charm of Warhammer Battle in comparison to other game systems. I still remember the versions where we were using cards for winds of magic (when you may not even cast a spell in your turn because you draw only dispel cards and didn't have a rule allowing you to use them as power cards ).

Well, I played enough AoS and Mordheim games so that it's not a big deterrent to me for TOW, but a page has definitively been turned here.

Yeah same boat, I liked the magic mini game in Warhammer! Cards, dice pool, whatever, I liked them all for what they were! My main armies where Tomb Kings and Vampires, so magic was pretty central for both of them so I'm quite curious to see how it turns out for those armies.

Liking the look of the preview so far overall, seems rather enjoyable. I'm still in

Sarouan wrote:
Kodos is a Kings of War fanatic, so he's out with or without random charges anyway.

Random charges are mostly hated by players who want "skill" to matter (they're usually tournament-friendly and like to think of themselves as good players) while they are liked by players who don't care about that kind of stuff (and understand that games using dice have a "luck factor" that is impossible to remove unless you remove dice in all of their mechanisms, anyway).

Besides, when people talk about "skill" in wargames like Battle or KoW, it's usually more about list building than strategy and tactics. It's mostly there so that petulant and arrogant elitist players feel like they're above the "filthy casuals". If they're out, I say good riddance - that's something I never missed when Battle died and all these "That Guy" tournament players went to other systems to plague them.

Nope.

What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"

If it had of been 2D3 + Movement, or Movement + 1D6, it wouldn't have been as badly received I imagine.

 stonehorse wrote:
What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"

You had a 5/6 chance of making a 9" charge, and a 1/6 chance of making a 14" charge. Bell curve plus a fixed value meant fairly predictable results, but with no guarantees unless you were at 6" or 38% of maximum possible charge range.

It actually creates about the same fluctuation as a single die would. With D6+Move, the 5/6 chance is 5" and the 1/6 chance is 10", so the spread between those values is the same as the 2D6 system, and the guaranteed-success distance of 4" is comparable at 40% of the maximum range. It's just shorter average charge range than march speed, which might be odd.

Maybe the occasional snake eyes or boxcars gave the impression that 2D6 was highly variable, but in practice it really wasn't. Compared to a single-die system, you get more extreme extremes but more consistent outcomes around the middle of the range.

I wouldn't mind 2D3+Move, but then it'd be back to being predictable enough for higher-Move armies to carefully position to be virtually guaranteed to get the charge.

 catbarf wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"

You had a 5/6 chance of making a 9" charge, and a 1/6 chance of making a 14" charge. Bell curve plus a fixed value meant fairly predictable results, but with no guarantees unless you were at 6" or 38% of maximum possible charge range.

It actually creates about the same fluctuation as a single die would. With D6+Move, the 5/6 chance is 5" and the 1/6 chance is 10", so the spread between those values is the same as the 2D6 system, and the guaranteed-success distance of 4" is comparable at 40% of the maximum range. It's just shorter average charge range than march speed, which might be odd.

Maybe the occasional snake eyes or boxcars gave the impression that 2D6 was highly variable, but in practice it really wasn't.

I wouldn't mind 2D3+Move, but then it'd be back to being predictable enough for higher-Move armies to carefully position to be virtually guaranteed to get the charge.

However that doesn't remove the point that it is a sizeble difference between add 2" and 12" to Movement 4. Yes the average will be 7, which from what I remember people positioned their units with that in mind to try and stay out of a units charge range. I'm all for a bit of randomness as it makes things fun and interesting, not against that. Just the way it was handles felt sloppy. Same with KoW nerve test, 2d6 has too big a range of potential results.

2D3 is random, but not too random.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Personally I think the managing risk from random charges is a big part of being a good player. You can say it "reduces skill" to have it but it's weird that the same people end up on top in 40k and AoS consistently without that extra skill level.

I personally hope random stays. As a dwarf player in the days of yore I HATED fixed charges and the change in 8th (for that) brought me so much joy.

As for the rules previewed so far I'm liking what I'm seeing.

I've always been of the opinion that the charge distance should be randomized, but not necessarily fully randomized. It really should be something like M+D6" or M+2D3", so you have a guaranteed charge distance, plus the possibility to charge further, rather than just being straight 2D6" where you are completely at the mercy of the dice or M+2d6" where you're potentially running across the entire table on a good roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn, ninja'd

I'll say it again: I saw the whole 1/8" push thing once in the entirety of the time I played 6th, and I was FLGS staff working GW nights twice a week. The guy did it to me personally, I hit him with one turn of Curse of Arrow Attraction with 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers and 2 20 man Archer units peppering his highest value unit. He picked up the pace from there on out.


Past that? I never even saw it pulled off in tournaments.

Adding 2d6 to all move values is a bit stupid.

Then the slow dwarf infantry can on a good roll charge way further than the fast light cavalry could on a bad roll. If it were M + 1d3 for each increment of Move value above X" and/or having it so cavalry and other supposedly fast units get to roll 3 dice and discard the lowest and then the reverse for some slower units. Mix and match the modifiers and also have the terrain work in a similar way with adding or removing a die or flat values.

You could then make it so something have a decent movement stat but due to size or how the unit is organized/equipped they don't really charge much further. Like a big monster with a large stride might have a Move of 8" but it can't really move much faster so it gets an extra 3d6 remove the highest for charge distance. It might not charge very far often but even its minimum charge is quite decent due to Base Movement 8". Then you might have a smaller monster that have 6" or 7" normal movement but charge the normal 2d6 or it might even have a bonus to represent how it crazily charges forward and rolls 3d6 and discard the lowest die. It would in some games charge a shorter distance than the larger monster but most of the time it would charge further even though it normally moves slower.

I think random charges is fine in a game with very limited amount of turns and the IGOUGO structure. Just don't make them too random. MESBG who I play the most have movement = charge distance and you are allowed to measure all the time. But that game have low lethality and games usually have many more turns than WFB or 40k has as well as both sides fight simultaneously so if there are no cavalry it doesn't have that much of an impact on who got the charge. It all depends on how the game is built. Both fixed or random can work.

The random roll on charge is meant to represent any unforseen events that might interrupt the charge, like if someone in the front got tripped on a rock and those behind them trips on the fallen comerade. The formation/momentum interrupted, the unit is forced to stop in their charge and regroup.

For cavalry, one horse may became scarred by some sudden screech and veered into a neighboring rider, forcing the whole unit to pivot and reform; a monster can suddenly become unruly and or distracted, a mistake in a necromancer's incantation led a block of skeletons to stop in their tracks, etc..

Hell, I vaguely remember an explaination given for the random charge distance in a past edition, 40K or fantasy, was that the order was not interpreted equally across the unit, some charge, others stand their ground, so they had to reform.

yeah, but why is marching than not a random 2D6 distance?
or weapon range, command range and more important spells?

if unforseen only happens on a charge but everything else is always exactly as planned, not is not a very good argument

 stonehorse wrote:

What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"

If it had of been 2D3 + Movement, or Movement + 1D6, it wouldn't have been as badly received I imagine.

Yeah, these people disliked the lack of control on the charge sub-phase when random charges were in - suddenly they couldn't hinder the way their opponents tried to charge them as easily as before, and they were upset by it. Who are they ? Those at the top, be it local or tournaments, who knew the game good enough to use these tricks.

Of course, with random charges as the way there were, there are other ways to prevent enemy charges and there were other tactics / strategies used by those who stayed. Those ? They were the true "good players", because they adapted to the new rules instead of blaming them for being "bad".

Besides, when you play dwarves as I did too with different editions of Warhammer Battle, you knew that before random charges were introduced, charges initiated by melee dwarf units were...let's say very short (pun intended ). That's why the only way to play dwarves before random charges was putting as many shoots as you could. With V8...melee dwarf lists were actually playable thanks also to them.

In general, before random charges, infantry always struggled to charge in comparison to cavalry, monster and all of the stuff that was 4+ in movement. Reason why the variancy is "so high" is precisely so that they were more par to par between them.

Klickor wrote:
Adding 2d6 to all move values is a bit stupid.

In Battle V8, there were rules for cavalry to roll 3d6 and keep the 2 best ones. With their high movement added, it was really hard to escape their charges other than being out of their view. And there were other rules as well, so it's not as "constant" as you may it look like.

If random charges are in for TOW (and I think they will be, they serve a lot of purpose despise what some from KoW say here), I expect there will be some rules like that for varied types of units.

 kodos wrote:
yeah, but why is marching than not a random 2D6 distance?
or weapon range, command range and more important spells?

if unforseen only happens on a charge but everything else is always exactly as planned, not is not a very good argument

Because charges were the heart of Warhammer Battle, the center of the main action. That's why charge denial is frustrating for players, and random charges are a tool to make it more difficult on purpose. While there was shooting and magic, they were more here to support the main assault and Battle, in opposite to 40k, was at the core a close combat game.

 kodos wrote:
yeah, but why is marching than not a random 2D6 distance?
or weapon range, command range and more important spells?

if unforseen only happens on a charge but everything else is always exactly as planned, not is not a very good argument

I'v marched in a para-military bootcamp and I can tell you simply that a march is not the same as a charge; marching or even trotting is meant to be ordered, marching order will be given and the command has to make sure the formation has heard the order clearly before doing so. A march in 8th edition WHFB rulebook is known as "going at the double", which is not a sprint, but a short of fast walk with the knees raised (unlike walking casually) where the formation remain intact and still leave enough time for everyone to figure out where they are and where they need to be.

Doing a charge is almost never taught to us part-timers because it's very difficult -- it's done on very short notice since it's meant to cover long distances in a very short amount of time. The professionals sprint when they charge. I've never witnessed a whole squad charging that remain in formation, and that's during demonstrations in our training, precisely because of how difficult it is. Now multiply the number of sprinting individuals by about 20 and stretch their the length from their ranks over 100 feet, and see if there's time for everyone to hear the order to charge at the same time.

For that matter, weapon range is well represented by ballistic skill: when the misfire of a gun or an arrow falling short can be blame on the skill of the user, therefore a part of the user's ballistic skill as an archer might have misjudged the distance, or a gunner failed to compensate for the wind etc. Spells fail because the caster cannot command the wind, that's represented in the randomness to cast a spell. As for command range, if there are to be commands like in 40K, they should require a command roll of some sort, you get no disagreement from me there.

Sarouan wrote:

Because charges were the heart of Warhammer Battle, the center of the main action. That's why charge denial is frustrating for players, and random charges are a tool to make it more difficult on purpose. While there was shooting and magic, they were more here to support the main assault and Battle, in opposite to 40k, was at the core a close combat game.

and marching denial was a thing as well

if you remove charge denial and replace it with a random roll, because "charges can be unforseen" why is march denial not just removed and not replaced by random march roll because "marches can be unforseen"

and magic or shooting was everything but "just support", it was just hated by the people if you build a list that would win without any melee action just by magic or shooting

this is just a bad argument and not very consistent