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Just wondering if White Dwarf will be dusting down Full Tilt, now that the Bretonnians are back in town.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:


Doubtful the Goblins would cause the Chaos Knights to run.

A unit of 20 Goblins will be have 6 attacks (champion+5), hitting on 5+ and wounding on a 5+, the Knights will save on 2+. So the Goblins inflict zero casualties.

The Knights attack back 2 attacks hitting on 3+, and wounding on 2+ (strength 5), the Goblins get no save. The mounts attack, 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, the foblins save on 6+.
The Knights will kill 2-3 Goblins.

The Goblins now with 17, will have flank, 2 ranks, and a standard, for a combat result of 4.
The Knights will outnumber (10), 3 kills, and a standard. For 5. They win by one and the Goblins flee.

Chaos Knights are brutal in 6th, even more so if increased to choosen... which seemed to be very popular.

I feel like you've assumed two ranks for the Chaos nights.

Chaos Knights had 2 Attacks base plus the mount in 6th. That's a single Knight stonehorse did "rolls" for.

SamusDrake wrote:
Just wondering if White Dwarf will be dusting down Full Tilt, now that the Bretonnians are back in town.

would be a decent little side game that, a few knights, the tilt and a few other terrain bits

And another page of people taking as if fighting 10 man wide WS5 Ld9 or 10 units are the only possible job chaff could ever be imagined doing.

What difference is there really in their job vs the majority of units they'll come into contact with compared to 8th?

leopard wrote:


would be a decent little side game that, a few knights, the tilt and a few other terrain bits

Indeed. It feels like a great way to celebrate the return of WHFB!

Over on Youtube, Eric's Workshop presented stands, crowds and even squires - it was very inspiring. The game itself is rather simple but not bad for a laugh, I reckon.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:


Doubtful the Goblins would cause the Chaos Knights to run.

A unit of 20 Goblins will be have 6 attacks (champion+5), hitting on 5+ and wounding on a 5+, the Knights will save on 2+. So the Goblins inflict zero casualties.

The Knights attack back 2 attacks hitting on 3+, and wounding on 2+ (strength 5), the Goblins get no save. The mounts attack, 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, the foblins save on 6+.
The Knights will kill 2-3 Goblins.

The Goblins now with 17, will have flank, 2 ranks, and a standard, for a combat result of 4.
The Knights will outnumber (10), 3 kills, and a standard. For 5. They win by one and the Goblins flee.

Chaos Knights are brutal in 6th, even more so if increased to choosen... which seemed to be very popular.

I feel like you've assumed two ranks for the Chaos nights.

Chaos Knights had 2 Attacks base plus the mount in 6th. That's a single Knight stonehorse did "rolls" for.

Not according to my Hordes of Chaos book. And he rolled 2 attacks for the mounts.

Also, I know the discussion was about chaff units being viable, but two chaos knights cost as much as that whole unit of 20 goblins. Add in a boss, and it still costs 2/3rds that 5 Chaos Knights do.

 stonehorse wrote:


Doubtful the Goblins would cause the Chaos Knights to run.

A unit of 20 Goblins will be have 6 attacks (champion+5), hitting on 5+ and wounding on a 5+, the Knights will save on 2+. So the Goblins inflict zero casualties.

The Knights attack back 2 attacks hitting on 3+, and wounding on 2+ (strength 5), the Goblins get no save. The mounts attack, 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, the foblins save on 6+.
The Knights will kill 2-3 Goblins.

The Goblins now with 17, will have flank, 2 ranks, and a standard, for a combat result of 4.
The Knights will outnumber (10), 3 kills, and a standard. For 5. They win by one and the Goblins flee.

Chaos Knights are brutal in 6th, even more so if increased to choosen... which seemed to be very popular.

That's a weird scenario you are presenting here.

Goblins have static CR of 6
Knights have 1 from their standard and 3 attacks total (2 A chosen knight, 1A horse) Even if they kill with every attack, which is pretty unlikely, they still lose by at least 2.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:


Doubtful the Goblins would cause the Chaos Knights to run.

A unit of 20 Goblins will be have 6 attacks (champion+5), hitting on 5+ and wounding on a 5+, the Knights will save on 2+. So the Goblins inflict zero casualties.

The Knights attack back 2 attacks hitting on 3+, and wounding on 2+ (strength 5), the Goblins get no save. The mounts attack, 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, the foblins save on 6+.
The Knights will kill 2-3 Goblins.

The Goblins now with 17, will have flank, 2 ranks, and a standard, for a combat result of 4.
The Knights will outnumber (10), 3 kills, and a standard. For 5. They win by one and the Goblins flee.

Chaos Knights are brutal in 6th, even more so if increased to choosen... which seemed to be very popular.

I feel like you've assumed two ranks for the Chaos nights.

Chaos Knights had 2 Attacks base plus the mount in 6th. That's a single Knight stonehorse did "rolls" for.

Only if you upgraded them to Chosen. Stonehorse also said 2 mount attacks, and I know without a doubt that a Chaos Steed only has 1 attack.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But realistically, nobody fielded units of 20 Gobbos for that reason. You’d want 30 or so for a Redundant Rank, and if Night Gobbos you’d almost certainly drop the points for Fanatics and Netters.

Also, the Knights S5 were only wounding on a 3+. Had to be double or more their T for a 2+ to wound

Good luck getting a mob of 30 goblin infantry into the flank of Chaos Knights. 30 have quite a large footprint. Realistically, 30 Goblins wouldbe able to get a whiff of a flank charge against Knights, especially with animosity throwing a wrench into the works.

Strength 5 vs Toughness 3 is indeed 2+ to wound, not sure where you are getting in is a 3+ from.

CR of 6 only when the gobo's did charge

2 chaos knights will be banner and champion
thats 5 attacks and 2 attcks for the horses.

If mark of khorn it will be 7 attacks.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:


Doubtful the Goblins would cause the Chaos Knights to run.

A unit of 20 Goblins will be have 6 attacks (champion+5), hitting on 5+ and wounding on a 5+, the Knights will save on 2+. So the Goblins inflict zero casualties.

The Knights attack back 2 attacks hitting on 3+, and wounding on 2+ (strength 5), the Goblins get no save. The mounts attack, 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, the foblins save on 6+.
The Knights will kill 2-3 Goblins.

The Goblins now with 17, will have flank, 2 ranks, and a standard, for a combat result of 4.
The Knights will outnumber (10), 3 kills, and a standard. For 5. They win by one and the Goblins flee.

Chaos Knights are brutal in 6th, even more so if increased to choosen... which seemed to be very popular.

I feel like you've assumed two ranks for the Chaos nights.

Heavy Cavalry were and remain always taken as units of 10, so will 2 ranks, note in the scenario as they are flanked by a unit with at least unit Strength 5, their rank bonus is negated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:


Doubtful the Goblins would cause the Chaos Knights to run.

A unit of 20 Goblins will be have 6 attacks (champion+5), hitting on 5+ and wounding on a 5+, the Knights will save on 2+. So the Goblins inflict zero casualties.

The Knights attack back 2 attacks hitting on 3+, and wounding on 2+ (strength 5), the Goblins get no save. The mounts attack, 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, the foblins save on 6+.
The Knights will kill 2-3 Goblins.

The Goblins now with 17, will have flank, 2 ranks, and a standard, for a combat result of 4.
The Knights will outnumber (10), 3 kills, and a standard. For 5. They win by one and the Goblins flee.

Chaos Knights are brutal in 6th, even more so if increased to choosen... which seemed to be very popular.

I feel like you've assumed two ranks for the Chaos nights.

Chaos Knights had 2 Attacks base plus the mount in 6th. That's a single Knight stonehorse did "rolls" for.

Nope, they had 1 attack apiece, if upgraded to choosen they had 2, and Chaos Armour. Hence my comment about them being very popular. Base is 1 attack.

It’s still a misleading example, because no Fanatics or Netters taken into consideration, or the massive points disparity between the units.

Yes I’m aware Fanatics don’t fight as such, but it would be a rare occasion a Fanatic or three isn’t the obvious go-to when about to be charged by Chaos Knights.

Or that Gobbo Characters were super cheap and could take a two handed weapon to slap a little extra hurt on the Chaos Knights.

Warhammer has always been about tipping the odds. No fight was ever a particularly sure thing. Yes my infantry might be completely rock, but I still have to cross the board, risking spells, artillery, bows, flank charges*, all of which will degrade my ultimate combat effectiveness.

*these had the double dip. Stuff well suited to Flank charges, including getting into position includes Fast Cavalry. Them attacking on their own, on the flank have a decent chance of winning. Might pin you in place, might end up running you down. But even if I lose and break? That’s a Ld test not to pursue me.

Whilst not something I would ever bank, even being pursued against my opponent’s preference can draw his unit out of line. And potentially, effectively remove them from the game depending on where they end up, what the terrain is like and how many turns are left for them to turn about or get somewhere useful.


Even if it’s a proper Deathstar unit I’ve pulled out of line? If that effectively removes it from contention and doing anything else even vaguely useful? I’ve wrecked your plan and that could be the decisive combat of the game. Indeed Deathstar really suffered from those odd circumstances because they’re such a concentration of your points.

Cyel wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:


Doubtful the Goblins would cause the Chaos Knights to run.

A unit of 20 Goblins will be have 6 attacks (champion+5), hitting on 5+ and wounding on a 5+, the Knights will save on 2+. So the Goblins inflict zero casualties.

The Knights attack back 2 attacks hitting on 3+, and wounding on 2+ (strength 5), the Goblins get no save. The mounts attack, 2 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, the foblins save on 6+.
The Knights will kill 2-3 Goblins.

The Goblins now with 17, will have flank, 2 ranks, and a standard, for a combat result of 4.
The Knights will outnumber (10), 3 kills, and a standard. For 5. They win by one and the Goblins flee.

Chaos Knights are brutal in 6th, even more so if increased to choosen... which seemed to be very popular.

That's a weird scenario you are presenting here.

Goblins have static CR of 6
Knights have 1 from their standard and 3 attacks total (2 A chosen knight, 1A horse) Even if they kill with every attack, which is pretty unlikely, they still lose by at least 2.

Nope, they have no kills.
1 flank, 2 ranks, and a banner. So 4.

The Chaos Knights now outnumber them (unit Strength 2 apiece, so 20 vs 17). Also the kills fr9m the Chaos Kboghts have negated a rank from the Goblins.

That's why I said the scenario is weird. I played hunderds of games in 6th and 7th, including internationally. Having an absurdly expensive second rank of Chaos Knights is something that just never happened, so pointless that using it is as an example makes no sense. Why not three ranks to make it even more nonsensical?

Having only 20 goblins is also pretty improbable, but not totally. I was assuming a 25-30 strong unit, not 20, but 20 would still appear occasionally, so yeah. Still such a unit would only lose its rank after suffering 3 casualties in 7th, not in 6th.

20 man Goblin regiment ranked with a 5 man front (Given your attacks listed, this seems your choice) would start with 5 standing CR: 1 for the banner, 1 for the flank, and 3 for the rank bonus. Remember that, in 6th, rank bonus is calculated at the START of the combat, so the Goblins would have gotten their full attacks.


It's also folly to assume that the Goblins would have stopped at 20 man. I don't think I've EVER seen anyone who goes min size on non-archer Goblin units. Even adding 5 models to bump it up to 25 leaves you with the full rank bonus AND outnumber on top of it. I sincerely doubt that the Gobbo player would be that short-sighted.


And you also state that everyone was taking 10 man knight units. You have no idea how many convos I've had on here and other forums assuring me that 6th was masses of 5 man knight units slaughtering everything in frontal charges. We even have a poster on this board who lauded his tourney experience as better than anecdotal while making these claims. If you're REALLY lucky they may even show pictures of their trophies.



These arguments on here tend to have moving goalposts as people look for the optimum set up that backs up their point and tears through their opponent's viewpoints. I look at reported data and averages.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Cyel wrote:
When I played 6-7th editions and compared them to 40k at the time, I used to say that Fantasy is a far superior game, because player moves trump raw stats.

In WFB you could beat a much stronger unit with a weaker one if you manoeuvered better. A puny goblin regiment in a flank of super-elite Chaos Knights won combat 100% of the time and likely broke them.
.

And thats a bad thing - catching out a similar sized unit or spearmen or similar. and routing fine - a few gobbos wiping out Chaos Knights - thats just beyond stupid. A huge mob of gobbos maybe - yeah swarming them etc.

It was equally stupid elite units not hitting low WS units easily - the table going back to previous editions is IMO a huge improvement

A unit of spear armed soldiers wiping out a unit of cavalry by hitting them in the flanks is a bad thing?

Not sure I follow that. Superior tactics is the name of the game.

* Gobbos are not soldiers or drilled spearmen and I assume you are really not making the claim that they are? They are nasty little blighters but a threat to Chaos Knights - only in very large numbers or by using fanatics etc
* Chaos Knights are also certainly far superior to medievil knights if you are trying to compare - better fighters, better armour, better weapons, carniverous mounts etc etc.

Are you really saying that a Chaos Knight should not hit a goblin on a 2+?? How about a Bloodthirster or Tryion? They can't reliably hit a goblin?

You guys are silly with your examples.
Anyway, after seeing the stats of the big dragon ogre, I am certain most heroes will remain at 2 wounds and your 300 point lords will have 3 wounds. VERTY SQUISHY. This means you must protect them good which leads to the old 1+/1+/4++ save rolls making your character almost immune.

I was hoping they were going to raise the wounds on characters/monsters and thus remove the need for super protection. Giving you a chance to nibble away at them. With 2-3 wounds you either wear plot armor or you die too fast.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s still a misleading example, because no Fanatics or Netters taken into consideration, or the massive points disparity between the units.

Yes I’m aware Fanatics don’t fight as such, but it would be a rare occasion a Fanatic or three isn’t the obvious go-to when about to be charged by Chaos Knights.

Or that Gobbo Characters were super cheap and could take a two handed weapon to slap a little extra hurt on the Chaos Knights.

Warhammer has always been about tipping the odds. No fight was ever a particularly sure thing. Yes my infantry might be completely rock, but I still have to cross the board, risking spells, artillery, bows, flank charges*, all of which will degrade my ultimate combat effectiveness.

*these had the double dip. Stuff well suited to Flank charges, including getting into position includes Fast Cavalry. Them attacking on their own, on the flank have a decent chance of winning. Might pin you in place, might end up running you down. But even if I lose and break? That’s a Ld test not to pursue me.

Whilst not something I would ever bank, even being pursued against my opponent’s preference can draw his unit out of line. And potentially, effectively remove them from the game depending on where they end up, what the terrain is like and how many turns are left for them to turn about or get somewhere useful.


Even if it’s a proper Deathstar unit I’ve pulled out of line? If that effectively removes it from contention and doing anything else even vaguely useful? I’ve wrecked your plan and that could be the decisive combat of the game. Indeed Deathstar really suffered from those odd circumstances because they’re such a concentration of your points.

The original poster mentioned Goblins, not Night Goblins. So the unit in question would not have Fanatics or Netters.

There are always going to be a bewildering amount of things not taken into account as the game has a lot of options, terrain plays a big part and dice arw fickle.

That all said, I was pointing out how it is extremely unlikely for a unit of Chaos Kboghts to not only lose a round of combat to flanking Giblins, but also flee. Chaos Knights arw one of the best unitsnin the game, where as Goblins are one of the worst. While I agree that Flanking a unit does tip the balance somewhat, there is only so much it can do to help the Goblins, who find themselves in melee with Chaos Knights, which is always a situation where they come off the worst.

I mean... 20 night gobbos in 6th were 40 points without anything else.

Chaos Knights I think were 33 points per model.

Cyel wrote:
That's why I said the scenario is weird. I played hunderds of games in 6th and 7th, including internationally. Having an absurdly expensive second rank of Chaos Knights is something that just never happened, so pointless that using it is as an example makes no sense. Why not three ranks to make it even more nonsensical?

Having only 20 goblins is also pretty improbable, but not totally. I was assuming a 25-30 strong unit, not 20, but 20 would still appear occasionally, so yeah. Still such a unit would only lose its rank after suffering 3 casualties in 7th, not in 6th.

10 men units of Knights are not taken for the combat bonus, but to ensure that there is enough bodies in the unit left when it makes it into melee to be effective, because WFB has a lot of really good ranged attacks, that can whittle even Chaos Knights down, Organ Guns, Hellblaster Volley Guns, Crossbows, Handguns, Repeater Bolt Throwers, Bolt Throwers, Rating Guns, etc.

10 are expensive, but that cost is paid to allow them to weather every ranged attack thrown at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
20 man Goblin regiment ranked with a 5 man front (Given your attacks listed, this seems your choice) would start with 5 standing CR: 1 for the banner, 1 for the flank, and 3 for the rank bonus. Remember that, in 6th, rank bonus is calculated at the START of the combat, so the Goblins would have gotten their full attacks.


It's also folly to assume that the Goblins would have stopped at 20 man. I don't think I've EVER seen anyone who goes min size on non-archer Goblin units. Even adding 5 models to bump it up to 25 leaves you with the full rank bonus AND outnumber on top of it. I sincerely doubt that the Gobbo player would be that short-sighted.


And you also state that everyone was taking 10 man knight units. You have no idea how many convos I've had on here and other forums assuring me that 6th was masses of 5 man knight units slaughtering everything in frontal charges. We even have a poster on this board who lauded his tourney experience as better than anecdotal while making these claims. If you're REALLY lucky they may even show pictures of their trophies.



These arguments on here tend to have moving goalposts as people look for the optimum set up that backs up their point and tears through their opponent's viewpoints. I look at reported data and averages.

I play a lot of WFB editions, so often get mixed up with some rules. Yeah, Ranks are at the start of combat, so the Goblins would have had an extra point, so 3 for ranks, 1 for flank, and 1 for banner. Still not going to be enough to win combat and cause the Chaos Knights to flee as the original poster said they did often.

20 Goblins, is easier and more realistic to flank a unit of Knights than say a unit of 30, due to unit foot print. 30 models take up a bot of space and are less flexible when it comes to movement. Chaos Knights being flanked by Goblin Infantry is hard to believe in the first place, making the Goblin unit a full horde makes it even less believable.

Well even more extreme is Blood Knights and those were run low as 4 knights.

And I have seen (very rarely!) of some taking 15+ Wolf Riders/Skeleton Riders in their list as they were "kinda" cheap enough.

 Sotahullu wrote:
Well even more extreme is Blood Knights and those were run low as 4 knights.

And I have seen (very rarely!) of some taking 15+ Wolf Riders/Skeleton Riders in their list as they were "kinda" cheap enough.

Different editionz those where only introduced in 7th edition.

4 is very risk, and just asking to be removed in one Shooting phase, although if I recall correctly as they are Undead they can be raised back to starting strength, Invocation of Nehek changed drastically with each edition, so hard to have a perfect recall. I think in 7th it had the option to raise a new unit removed.

I always run my Black Knights in 6th as 10 men jnits with Barding and Full Command, experience, but damn with it, and I have 3 units of them.

I have never seen 10 Chaos Knights. 2x5 Chaos Knights survive exactly the same amount of fire (actually more - overkill doesn't carry over to the other unit), but trade mostly pointless +1CR for a full batch of attacks from the Knights, flexibility, not to mention the risk of losing such an expensive unit to an unlucky Psychology/Break test roll.

Huge cavalry units made sense for Bretonnians or Undead. I probably killed the 15 strong Black Knight unit only a couple of times, despite playing against it all the time. My friend, who captained the winning Polish team on ETC for several years in a row was the inventor of this "Black Knight Bus" and it was a lynchpin of his rarely defeated Vampire Counts army*. Other than that it was a rare sight even for fairly cheap cavalry, for really expensive ones it never happened (maybe in WD reports, and we know how true to how the game actually worked they were ).

*- actually ETC owes its existence to our discussions on The Warhammer Society Forums with Danish players about the viability of the Black Knight Bus

 Just Tony wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Hoping to see some more info about combat that explains the value of low Ld units in the new paradigm.

Want to give the benefit of the doubt, but it's GW so it's pretty hard...

Cheap. Outnumber enemy. Charge enemy front and rear.

AOS players will have a field day in TOW tournaments TOW players just moving death star elite units front to front while AOS players learned how to attack weak side of units and outflanking enemy with multiple units years ago.

No, WHFB players who now AoS will have the advantage.
People who've only played Sigmar will have to learn....

SU-152 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Hoping to see some more info about combat that explains the value of low Ld units in the new paradigm.

Want to give the benefit of the doubt, but it's GW so it's pretty hard...

Cheap. Outnumber enemy. Charge enemy front and rear.

AOS players will have a field day in TOW tournaments TOW players just moving death star elite units front to front while AOS players learned how to attack weak side of units and outflanking enemy with multiple units years ago.

Do units in AoS have flanks? rear? or any type of LoS limitation? so those tactics matter at all.

No. But depending on how units are positioned there's weaker side.

You see AOS players are smart enough that even if rulebook doesn't have rule called FLANK ATTACK BONUS that gives static bonus on attacking from specific direction if there's advantage to be gained from attacking from weakest side enemy provides we know how to use it.

But here's extremely simple example. Odds are you don't get to use advantage to this level all that often because it requires opponent to be braindead idiot or some serious blunder to get to this level but for sake of example let's make it blindingly clear.

Scenario 1. There's unit of 20 mean nasty unit. If you charge in from front(aka where opponent wants you to attack) then you will kill some and then your unit gets totally obliterated as entire enemy unit gets to strike at you.

Scenario 2. You apply some cunning manouver and attack from direction that's weakest. You kill some(say 5) models. Then from remaining 15 models...ONE model gets to attack which isn't even close to killing your unit. Because you did MANOUVER and didn't just ram head first.
'
Which one you think gives you advantage? Head on collision or manouver weakest direction? I hope you say scenario 2 because I can't for my life figure how losing your entire unit for no gain is better for you...

It's not name of rule but do you gain benefit from attacking weakest direction. Guess AOS players just have figured out we don't need to be spelled out "attack from weakest side and it's good for you!".

Another mind blowing thing. AOS players know how to win even if you can only barely kill units by using things like screening and focusing on objectives. Just last week I had to figure out how to win game where all I can kill is screens.

40k players have it even harder with having to win games when neither side can actually kill opposing units. Been there done that.

Cyel wrote:
I have never seen 10 Chaos Knights. 2x5 Chaos Knights survive exactly the same amount of fire (actually more - overkill doesn't carry over to the other unit), but trade mostly pointless +1CR for a full batch of attacks from the Knights, flexibility, not to mention the risk of losing such an expensive unit to an unlucky Psychology/Break test roll.

Huge cavalry units made sense for Bretonnians or Undead. I probably killed the 15 strong Black Knight unit only a couple of times, despite playing against it all the time. My friend, who captained the winning Polish team on ETC for several years in a row was the inventor of this "Black Knight Bus" and it was a lynchpin of his rarely defeated Vampire Counts army*. Other than that it was a rare sight even for fairly cheap cavalry, for really expensive ones it never happened (maybe in WD reports, and we know how true to how the game actually worked they were ).

*- actually ETC owes its existence to our discussions on The Warhammer Society Forums with Danish players about the viability of the Black Knight Bus

Those 2 units of 5 Chaos Knights are more vulnerable to panic/break tests due to being a smaller unit.

I often took 10 Chaos Knights when I played Chaos :shrug:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On a less silly but still flank and rear combo pondering?

If I beat you in combat, and have a units engaging you to front and say, left flank? If you’re pushed back or fall back in good order…..wonder which way you go?

IIRC the rules preview said 'away from the largest unit' or some such. Maybe 'away from the unit with the highest unit strength.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Another mind blowing thing. AOS players know how to win even if you can only barely kill units by using things like screening and focusing on objectives. Just last week I had to figure out how to win game where all I can kill is screens.

Congratulations. You've finally figured out how to beat a deathstar army in exactly the same manner I used to do in 8E all the time.

The point is that a particular value proposition existed for all units in previous editions that now is specifically denied chaff units and overly emphasised in expensive ones.

The game has shifted into a bimodal distribution where low ld are disproportionately affected and high ld are disproportionately advantaged.

Goblins were 2pts each when they HAD that rout advantage - in this new paradigm they are definitely not as valuable as they used to be but their price can't really drop any further.


The central concern I have is that the game has shifted rules in favour of some units over others, with no alternative compensation for those other units.


I don't care if chaff super suck this edition if it is balanced against those now advantaged elites. But there is nothing that indicates that is true.

The rules that have changed that now directly penalise chaff units

WS now advantages elites more
Initiative now advantages elites more (only dwarfs excepted here)
Leadership now advantages elites more

A ws2/3 i2/3 ld5/6/7 unit in TOW is now demonstrably worse than it was in wfb.

There are no core rules left that you could hide mitigating factors.

Any rules that could mitigate this - magic, special army rules for more leaders etc, are patches on a flawed base that make those core rules pointless.

Why have ld6 units if you design the army around have ld7/8 heroes blanketing the force to avoid it?

WS3 is different vs WS1 (2+ not 3+) and vs WS7 and above (2+ not 3+)

WS2 is the same to hit but gets hit on 2+ not 3+ vs WS 5 and above

Thats correct, right?

Poor cheap units will have to reliy on static combat resolution to do anything useful, just like in 6/7th edition. If goblins cost 4 points. than a unit of 36 would cost around 150 points and get +6 rank bonus to combat resolution which is something. Makes them an ok tarpit.

If they retain the HW&SH combo giving you +1AS and "step up" rule, than 36 goblins in a block become much better than what they were in 7th. 7SCR vs 5SCR and always 7 attacks back that could snuck in a wound.