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WorldEdgePlayer wrote:
Poor cheap units will have to reliy on static combat resolution to do anything useful, just like in 6/7th edition. If goblins cost 4 points. than a unit of 36 would cost around 150 points and get +6 rank bonus to combat resolution which is something. Makes them an ok tarpit.

If they retain the HW&SH combo giving you +1AS and "step up" rule, than 36 goblins in a block become much better than what they were in 7th. 7SCR vs 5SCR and always 7 attacks back that could snuck in a wound.

Just as a reference, in 6th, a goblin with hand weapon and shield was 2pts.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:
Poor cheap units will have to reliy on static combat resolution to do anything useful, just like in 6/7th edition. If goblins cost 4 points. than a unit of 36 would cost around 150 points and get +6 rank bonus to combat resolution which is something. Makes them an ok tarpit.

If they retain the HW&SH combo giving you +1AS and "step up" rule, than 36 goblins in a block become much better than what they were in 7th. 7SCR vs 5SCR and always 7 attacks back that could snuck in a wound.

Just as a reference, in 6th, a goblin with hand weapon and shield was 2pts.

I do hope they don't go down to 2 points anymore. I'd rather play smaller armies again and not field my manticore sorcerer but let GW have more leeway in balancing units and weapons then what we had overall during WHFB.

If i play goblins in fantasy (8th edition) i always go for multiple units of 20 goblins + netters + 3 fanatics.
It will ruin my own battleline but with some luck those from my opponent to.
Trow in som squickhoppers an those big squicks and for fun some squick units.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:
Poor cheap units will have to reliy on static combat resolution to do anything useful, just like in 6/7th edition. If goblins cost 4 points. than a unit of 36 would cost around 150 points and get +6 rank bonus to combat resolution which is something. Makes them an ok tarpit.

If they retain the HW&SH combo giving you +1AS and "step up" rule, than 36 goblins in a block become much better than what they were in 7th. 7SCR vs 5SCR and always 7 attacks back that could snuck in a wound.

Just as a reference, in 6th, a goblin with hand weapon and shield was 2pts.

In 7th they were 4pts with shields. A stupid idea to even make shields optional. Who is going to model thier goblins with and without shields.

But, by 7th Panic had gone, removing a significant weakness of all-Gobbo armies, as one good combat win had a surprisingly reasonable chance of sending the whole army packing.

 Hellebore wrote:
The point is that a particular value proposition existed for all units in previous editions that now is specifically denied chaff units and overly emphasised in expensive ones.

The game has shifted into a bimodal distribution where low ld are disproportionately affected and high ld are disproportionately advantaged.

Goblins were 2pts each when they HAD that rout advantage - in this new paradigm they are definitely not as valuable as they used to be but their price can't really drop any further.


The central concern I have is that the game has shifted rules in favour of some units over others, with no alternative compensation for those other units.


I don't care if chaff super suck this edition if it is balanced against those now advantaged elites. But there is nothing that indicates that is true.

The rules that have changed that now directly penalise chaff units

WS now advantages elites more
Initiative now advantages elites more (only dwarfs excepted here)
Leadership now advantages elites more

A ws2/3 i2/3 ld5/6/7 unit in TOW is now demonstrably worse than it was in wfb.

It has RETURNED to a previous iteration of the WS table - lets not pretend that different editions had the same rules

Well good thing that I checked because I completely forgot that base sizes are changing.

So have to wait a bit as only known thing is that 20mm ones are moving to 25mm.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
The point is that a particular value proposition existed for all units in previous editions that now is specifically denied chaff units and overly emphasised in expensive ones.

The game has shifted into a bimodal distribution where low ld are disproportionately affected and high ld are disproportionately advantaged.

Goblins were 2pts each when they HAD that rout advantage - in this new paradigm they are definitely not as valuable as they used to be but their price can't really drop any further.


The central concern I have is that the game has shifted rules in favour of some units over others, with no alternative compensation for those other units.


I don't care if chaff super suck this edition if it is balanced against those now advantaged elites. But there is nothing that indicates that is true.

The rules that have changed that now directly penalise chaff units

WS now advantages elites more
Initiative now advantages elites more (only dwarfs excepted here)
Leadership now advantages elites more

A ws2/3 i2/3 ld5/6/7 unit in TOW is now demonstrably worse than it was in wfb.

It has RETURNED to a previous iteration of the WS table - lets not pretend that different editions had the same rules

The last time you hit on a 2+ was 3rd ed, 4-8 was max 3+. And from what we've seen, they are using the later edition unit stats and rules. Whether the game has returned is irrelevant to my point.

Based on the Shaggoth, troll and sword master rules provided previously, they are sticking with the 6+ paradigm of stats. Which means the TOW core rules as described disadvantage a 2pt goblin fundamentally more than they did in 6-8 rules.

There are no gaps in the core rules provided where they could hide balancing mechanics to offset the disadvantages baked into the core mechanics for chaff units. Everything is geared against them - even the CR, their main source of effectiveness, because now you only get it from ranks so long as your unit is wider than deep, so the goblins need to exponentially increase their numbers to gain that advantage.

Wide frontages now also advantage elite units over chaff - why try to generate a rank bonus when you can get an extra 4+ attacks and generate a potential CR of 4 or more?

The only place they can hide balances against these many anti-chaff rules, is in army rules and that is a failure of the core mechanics to reflect the whole game.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But, by 7th Panic had gone, removing a significant weakness of all-Gobbo armies, as one good combat win had a surprisingly reasonable chance of sending the whole army packing.

Not completely gone, it had reduced triggers, but Panic was still a thing in 7th. It was however a far cry from what bit was in 5th.

All the talk of Hand Weapon & Shields, had me hoping that we see the hand weapon and shield rules from 7th and not 8th. Switching to a 6+ ward felt a bit odd. 7th kept the 6th +1 to armour save in melee, but only to the front. So it gave flank and rear attacks more impact.

 Hellebore wrote:

Wide frontages now also advantage elite units over chaff - why try to generate a rank bonus when you can get an extra 4+ attacks and generate a potential CR of 4 or more?

This is weird to read. For each attack you need to roll to hit, to wound, and the enemy needs to fail a save in order to convert to combat res. Rank Bonus is always on combat res.

It will depend somewhat on the costs and likelihood of "conversion" from attack to CR, but being able to buy an extra rank (and guaranteed +1 CR) for chaff for every elite cav or whatever your opponent adds to their unit seems like a pretty good thing.

 Rihgu wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Wide frontages now also advantage elite units over chaff - why try to generate a rank bonus when you can get an extra 4+ attacks and generate a potential CR of 4 or more?

This is weird to read. For each attack you need to roll to hit, to wound, and the enemy needs to fail a save in order to convert to combat res. Rank Bonus is always on combat res.

It will depend somewhat on the costs and likelihood of "conversion" from attack to CR, but being able to buy an extra rank (and guaranteed +1 CR) for chaff for every elite cav or whatever your opponent adds to their unit seems like a pretty good thing.

Thing is, we can do both now.

Assuming Rank Bonus remains capped at +3, having the wider frontage will allow cheapo models to bag more of their typically low quality attacks, and still pack in enough models for a bit of Rank Redundancy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Wide frontages now also advantage elite units over chaff - why try to generate a rank bonus when you can get an extra 4+ attacks and generate a potential CR of 4 or more?

This is weird to read. For each attack you need to roll to hit, to wound, and the enemy needs to fail a save in order to convert to combat res. Rank Bonus is always on combat res.

It will depend somewhat on the costs and likelihood of "conversion" from attack to CR, but being able to buy an extra rank (and guaranteed +1 CR) for chaff for every elite cav or whatever your opponent adds to their unit seems like a pretty good thing.

Thing is, we can do both now.

Assuming Rank Bonus remains capped at +3, having the wider frontage will allow cheapo models to bag more of their typically low quality attacks, and still pack in enough models for a bit of Rank Redundancy.

With that, I think it'd be a little difficult for the chaff to be cheap enough for it to be 'worth it'. If a goblin is 4 points and a chaos warrior is 16 points, adding a rank of 4 models to the goblins is good, that's +1 CR and the 4 bad attacks aren't likely to convert to 1 CR.

Make it 5 wide to get an extra attack and now it costs 20 points for that rank bonus. 6 wide, 24 points, so on and so forth. It probably works out as long as 1 rank of your cheap is worth less than 1 rank of their elite but I figure you probably want a 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio there. We'll see with fuller rules.

 Hellebore wrote:

Based on the Shaggoth, troll and sword master rules provided previously, they are sticking with the 6+ paradigm of stats. Which means the TOW core rules as described disadvantage a 2pt goblin fundamentally more than they did in 6-8 rules.

There are no gaps in the core rules provided where they could hide balancing mechanics to offset the disadvantages baked into the core mechanics for chaff units. Everything is geared against them - even the CR, their main source of effectiveness, because now you only get it from ranks so long as your unit is wider than deep, so the goblins need to exponentially increase their numbers to gain that advantage.

Wide frontages now also advantage elite units over chaff - why try to generate a rank bonus when you can get an extra 4+ attacks and generate a potential CR of 4 or more?

The only place they can hide balances against these many anti-chaff rules, is in army rules and that is a failure of the core mechanics to reflect the whole game.

In 7th a 25 goblin unit could at most get 5CR (3 ranks, banner, outnumber) and usualy do no damage because of no "step up". Even with LD8 from the general, they would likely break and flee if hit by something strong.

NOW a 36 goblin unit (a little more expensive I know) could get 7CR (6 ranks, banner, no outnumber bonus?) and likely squeze in a wound with "step up rule". If they loose they are essenttialy stubborn with the caveat of moving backwards. Less chances of being run down. Chaff units are better now than in 6th/7th. Will they win combat and score you points? Probalby not, but at the end they only cost around 150 points.

Rank Bonus has capped out at +3 for as long as I’ve been playing WHFB.

Lack of step up is why you splashed for Spears on your Gobbos. Get that second rank doing some fighting,

 Hellebore wrote:
The only place they can hide balances against these many anti-chaff rules, is in army rules and that is a failure of the core mechanics to reflect the whole game.

Or in the model stats. Granted, it's unlikely they'll vary much from the familiar, but perhaps the disparity between units won;t be as wide as it used to be.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
The only place they can hide balances against these many anti-chaff rules, is in army rules and that is a failure of the core mechanics to reflect the whole game.

Or in the model stats. Granted, it's unlikely they'll vary much from the familiar, but perhaps the disparity between units won;t be as wide as it used to be.

There is no need. The actual differences compared to 8th are very small.

WS5 hits WS2 on a 2+ not a 3+

You get 3 extra attacks with a unit deployed 10 wide engaging with a unit that's 5 wide (Chaos warriors go from 15 attacks to 18).

Everyone basically becomes stubborn which, despite people talking as if Ld6 will never pass a test or cannot be boosted in any way, is still a useful thing for low Ld units.

Units hit in modified I order - now we don't know exactly how it works, but the units with plenty of bodies to step up in the first round are likely to be able to still get their attacks away and chaff has never been too likely to be taking out many elite bodies to stop them striking anyway.


These are small boosts. All that's required is for units to be given appropriate points.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rank Bonus has capped out at +3 for as long as I’ve been playing WHFB.

Lack of step up is why you splashed for Spears on your Gobbos. Get that second rank doing some fighting,

We don't know if the cap exists in The Old World, though. I has a lot less reason to exist now that increased rank bonus is tied to increasingly wide frontage that is made all the worse by base sizes changing. 20mm going up to 25mm for models that could previously form compact buses creates unwieldy units pretty fast if you try to get an excessive rank bonus. Add non-linear cost increase for extra ranks and you have a situation in which a soft cap works just fine and the old hard cap isn't required. As a bonus, it increases the value of chaff that some are so worried about.

Vorian wrote:
These are small boosts. All that's required is for units to be given appropriate points.

And yet GW has consistently failed to do that for decades, which is why I can't get that enthusiastic. The core mechanics of the game have been fine; it's always been the army lists and special rules that jack things up.

It's funny: I bought Bolt Action recently and reading through it I could see that yes, the old designers really did do solid work and if they had just been left alone, they could have created a definitive and excellent system.

They weren't left alone, though, and I don't think they will be here, either. GW always has to create a skew to boost sales and then they create a counter-skew, so the next thing sells. See also, 10th ed. 40k.

As far as I understood from the combat article, there is a step-up of models when killed. That does not mean that models that step-up in place of the fallen minis strike back.

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Based on the Shaggoth, troll and sword master rules provided previously, they are sticking with the 6+ paradigm of stats. Which means the TOW core rules as described disadvantage a 2pt goblin fundamentally more than they did in 6-8 rules.

There are no gaps in the core rules provided where they could hide balancing mechanics to offset the disadvantages baked into the core mechanics for chaff units. Everything is geared against them - even the CR, their main source of effectiveness, because now you only get it from ranks so long as your unit is wider than deep, so the goblins need to exponentially increase their numbers to gain that advantage.

Wide frontages now also advantage elite units over chaff - why try to generate a rank bonus when you can get an extra 4+ attacks and generate a potential CR of 4 or more?

The only place they can hide balances against these many anti-chaff rules, is in army rules and that is a failure of the core mechanics to reflect the whole game.

In 7th a 25 goblin unit could at most get 5CR (3 ranks, banner, outnumber) and usualy do no damage because of no "step up". Even with LD8 from the general, they would likely break and flee if hit by something strong.

NOW a 36 goblin unit (a little more expensive I know) could get 7CR (6 ranks, banner, no outnumber bonus?) and likely squeze in a wound with "step up rule". If they loose they are essenttialy stubborn with the caveat of moving backwards. Less chances of being run down. Chaff units are better now than in 6th/7th. Will they win combat and score you points? Probalby not, but at the end they only cost around 150 points.

Actually you could get a max of 6 in 7th because of the stupid change to the BSB getting their +1 ON TOP of the unit standard.

Second, how do you figure they'd do no damage? Average units would have 6 attacks to the front, 4 hitting with superior weapon skill (Gonna err in YOUR favor for this, btw) and 3 of those wounding unless the strength of the weapon/unit is sufficient enough to get you a whopping 4. Unless you targeted the Goblin Boss that unit now gets 7 attacks back. And even then, what unit is going up against it? Where are characters? Did unit x or 1 take shooting/magic damage to thin their ranks before combat was made?


You're neglecting the variable nature of combat, and how effective your rolls really are. In my mind you're conflating potential damage output with statistical damage output and erring in your own favor, and I'm willing to bet the model will change on the fly toward your desired result if any flaws in your match up are found.

It's funny, though, that the same people who assure us rolls are set in stone effective for combat are the same people who assure use that rolls for random charge range don't follow that same curve.

Any predictions or rumors for tomorrow, lads?

Must say I've become fond of the monday rules reviews.

 triplegrim wrote:
Any predictions or rumors for tomorrow, lads?

Must say I've become fond of the monday rules reviews.

GW wrote:
Here on Warhammer Community, there will be new reveals for Necromunda and Warhammer: The Horus Heresy, a deeper look at how spellcasting works in Warhammer: The Old World, and all the regular good stuff you’re used to. And over on the Warhammer YouTube channel, you can look forward to an awesome Grotmas Gitz painting tutorial.

Bold mine. We know it’s going to be about magic, so that’s something

 Rihgu wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Wide frontages now also advantage elite units over chaff - why try to generate a rank bonus when you can get an extra 4+ attacks and generate a potential CR of 4 or more?

This is weird to read. For each attack you need to roll to hit, to wound, and the enemy needs to fail a save in order to convert to combat res. Rank Bonus is always on combat res.

It will depend somewhat on the costs and likelihood of "conversion" from attack to CR, but being able to buy an extra rank (and guaranteed +1 CR) for chaff for every elite cav or whatever your opponent adds to their unit seems like a pretty good thing.

An elite unit is likely to have 10 models, unless it's a deathstar. 10 dwarfs was 90 points, 20 180. And they aren't elite dwarfs.

10 model units only have 1 CR. Elite units are generally pretty handy in a fight. Doubling your frontage is all but guaranteeing you at least +1 to your CR, with the chance to add several more. Those aren't really equivalent odds. There's not much of a bet there.

Each unit would have to have its numbers crunched to determine the best use of its formation, but the heavy hitters are all going to be wide and shallow. Great weapons like swordmasters, hammerers, white lions, chaos warriors etc, are all going to deploy wide and shallow to maximise their attacks for extra CR.

chaff units are never going to hurt those units, so they are unlikely to be forming wide. For them, ranks are useful, although they are unlikely to win with 11 elite attacks killing several whether charged or charging.

 Hellebore wrote:
chaff units are never going to hurt those units, so they are unlikely to be forming wide. For them, ranks are useful, although they are unlikely to win with 11 elite attacks killing several whether charged or charging.

Could always go for a 100x1 Goblin formation and roll all of the dice.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
chaff units are never going to hurt those units, so they are unlikely to be forming wide. For them, ranks are useful, although they are unlikely to win with 11 elite attacks killing several whether charged or charging.

Could always go for a 100x1 Goblin formation and roll all of the dice.

Yeah I'd thought of that - hopefully they have some kind of sensible limitation on how many in the front can actually strike, or you get stupid situations like that where models more than 10x their Move away from the enemy are striking them...

 Hellebore wrote:
Yeah I'd thought of that - hopefully they have some kind of sensible limitation on how many in the front can actually strike, or you get stupid situations like that where models more than 10x their Move away from the enemy are striking them...

That makes missile troops pretty tough on defense if in addition to shooting all 10 or 12 get to fight in close combat whilst the opponent is operating on a five model front.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
That makes missile troops pretty tough on defense if in addition to shooting all 10 or 12 get to fight in close combat whilst the opponent is operating on a five model front.

A unit of 20 dwarf crossbows with great weapons in a 10x2 formation is looking hot. 20 bolts for shooting and 10GW attacks in CC.

Did they have great weapons and shields as options for the miniatures?

Vorian wrote:
Did they have great weapons and shields as options for the miniatures?

Yes. From the box you can give them xbows, guns, shields or great axes. So since you get these in the sprue, I imagine it will be an option in the game. GW loves to be precise with box content and game options.

Yes, please.