Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors. Pre orders. p.280.

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**WorldEdgePlayer**

tneva82 wrote:
You assume they will do 2 different boxes. What stops them from replacing one with other?

Oh wait gw never replaced box with new that has double models...oh wait they have. It's even been mentioned in this thread.

Some boxes going double size is no big deal for gw.

You might be right. Than some AoS players will rejoice for better deals they will get. GW/AOS team is probably not happy with the mess this will cause in the AoS range. They would have to update some of the boxes but leave the others? BUT we do know from the box leak that TOW boxes will have art on the front cover and AOS boxes have picture of models on the front cover. And you have to put either square or round bases in the box, so can you really have the same box for both systems? Demons have the same box for 40k and AoS tough..

Spoiler:

**Dryaktylus**

chaos0xomega wrote:

Spoiler:

frankelee wrote:
It's unlikely "sprue efficiency" is a relatively important factor in pricing. And these products are not priced at a competitive formula that takes into account the cost of their material and cost of production, the way a family restaurant costs it's dishes. Those costs are negligible and the old style sprues probably aren't causing some great delay in their plastic injection molding schedule. It's more just a matter of how far corporate's willing to push it and risk strangling the whole project in the crib.

Production efficiency on these kits actually matters a lot, it's not about material usage, it's about time. In the time it takes to produce 1 box of 32 skeletons, they can potentially have produced around 4-8 boxes of a more modern kit (depending on the kit). The machine can only be producing one set of molds at a time, so if you think about the machine staying on the Tomb king skeletons for a day, fo example, it might produce ~2,700 kits for sale (estimated based off my experience with industrial plastics manufacturing)... or you could produce something like 10,800 deathrattle skeleton kits or 21,600 black knights kits instead. When you put that into the context of the sales price of the latter two kits, it's frighteningly obvious that GW is basically leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table per day producing these older kits instead of more modern ones - and if the demand for them is as high as some assume, then that means those machines are going to be tied up producing these kits for a long time (and that alone might be why it's taken GW so long to get this game into production, because I doubt they'd want to to have anything more than the bare minimum of machines allocated to production of such an inefficient product). The only way to offset that inefficiency really is to hike the cost of the kits to offset the time losses, but you can't really price the kits 4-8x higher because then nobody will buy them.

We don't know their machine park. They could still have older injection machines not really suitable for producing new sprues but used for more simple moulds (ancient kits like the Vyper, possible MtO like the 3rd edition 40k box or bases). Then the 'normal' production wouldn't be affected that much. I work in the industry (not gaming though), and until machines have too many failures and/or the replacement parts are too hard (and expensive) to get, we keep them for the same reasons.

**Dudeface**

tneva82 wrote:
You assume they will do 2 different boxes. What stops them from replacing one with other?

Oh wait gw never replaced box with new that has double models...oh wait they have. It's even been mentioned in this thread.

Some boxes going double size is no big deal for gw.

It kind of is, the only time they've done it realistically was the stormcast boxes I think. The point still stands you're asserting they want to shift more plastic at lower profit in the name of supporting what is at this stage a niche game.

**Shadow Walker**

At least for Gobbos they could solve double TOW/AOS box problem by simply not having Night Goblins/Wood Goblins subfactions (insert whatever fluff reason - see other non playable factions) in the game but only regular Gobbos just like there are no regular Orcs in AOS.

**chaos0xomega**

I expect that between TOW and AoS4 we will find a lot of units currently in AoS won't be there any longer.

**Shadow Walker**

chaos0xomega wrote:
I expect that between TOW and AoS4 we will find a lot of units currently in AoS won't be there any longer.

Entire Beast of Chaos range (first who said it

)?

**chaos0xomega**

I said that a few days ago, somewhere. May have been reddit or fb. Most of the range is legacy whfb models, they've barely been touched. My theory is that they send Beasts back to WHFB with the exception of the tzaangors and slaangors and the handful of new kits, and then move the ogroids and fomoroids and the like out of slaves to darkness to build a new basis for an AoS Beastmen army.

**Inquisitor Gideon**

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
You assume they will do 2 different boxes. What stops them from replacing one with other?

Oh wait gw never replaced box with new that has double models...oh wait they have. It's even been mentioned in this thread.

Some boxes going double size is no big deal for gw.

You might be right. Than some AoS players will rejoice for better deals they will get. GW/AOS team is probably not happy with the mess this will cause in the AoS range. They would have to update some of the boxes but leave the others? BUT we do know from the box leak that TOW boxes will have art on the front cover and AOS boxes have picture of models on the front cover. And you have to put either square or round bases in the box, so can you really have the same box for both systems? Demons have the same box for 40k and AoS tough..

Spoiler:

That won't happen with the chaos warriors. They've been sculpted specifically with AoS in mind as they've got stuff like SCE trophies hanging off of them.

**chaos0xomega**

Which makes one wonder if they're going to bring back the old chaos warriors kit for TOW, or just cut them from TOW entirely and recalibrate the army. My theory there is that marauders and marauder horsemen get cut from AoS along with the chariots and a few of the other older units and they rebrand and rebuild the chaos warriors as being more Norscan in flavor. My recollection of the lore was also that the heavy plate armor chaos warriors thing didn't come about until either Asavar Kul made certain pacts with the gods or the chaos dwarves opened up trade with the north, so it might not be in timeline for TOW?

**Olthannon**

The old Perry Twins warriors had scale mail if I remember rightly. That would be quite a good look. I doubt they will go down that route though.

**Inquisitor Gideon**

chaos0xomega wrote:
Which makes one wonder if they're going to bring back the old chaos warriors kit for TOW, or just cut them from TOW entirely and recalibrate the army. My theory there is that marauders and marauder horsemen get cut from AoS along with the chariots and a few of the other older units and they rebrand and rebuild the chaos warriors as being more Norscan in flavor. My recollection of the lore was also that the heavy plate armor chaos warriors thing didn't come about until either Asavar Kul made certain pacts with the gods or the chaos dwarves opened up trade with the north, so it might not be in timeline for TOW?

A lot of it depends on the other rumour that it's going to be two armies every six months. You could have three or four years before any of the listed armies comes close to hitting the table.

**leopard**

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Which makes one wonder if they're going to bring back the old chaos warriors kit for TOW, or just cut them from TOW entirely and recalibrate the army. My theory there is that marauders and marauder horsemen get cut from AoS along with the chariots and a few of the other older units and they rebrand and rebuild the chaos warriors as being more Norscan in flavor. My recollection of the lore was also that the heavy plate armor chaos warriors thing didn't come about until either Asavar Kul made certain pacts with the gods or the chaos dwarves opened up trade with the north, so it might not be in timeline for TOW?

A lot of it depends on the other rumour that it's going to be two armies every six months. You could have three or four years before any of the listed armies comes close to hitting the table.

and thats likely entirely dependent on sales for the first two, if they don't sell many boxes but sell a lot of rulebooks we may see other boxes but more of a risk

**chaos0xomega**

I'm increasingly doubting the rumors about army pairs every 6 months, they were linked to rumors of a new chariot instwad of bone dragon and a unit of mummies in the Tomb Kings box, which ate now verifiably false.

**Shakalooloo**

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:
BUT we do know from the box leak that TOW boxes will have art on the front cover and AOS boxes have picture of models on the front cover.

The spoiled box is from an 'includes the rulebook' starter set, not a unit box. They always have painted art, regardless of system. We don't yet know the unit box style.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Hmm.

Now that breaking opposing units is trickier to pull off, I wonder if that’s going to bring a Points Premium to stuff which causes automatic Panic tests, like the Screaming Skull Catapult.

Because when you can no longer rely on a crushing combat victory to drive the enemy away, surely every such test which might result in a fleeing unit is going to become more valuable?

**WorldEdgePlayer**

I am 100% sure you will be able to buy minis for all the core factions on release day. They cannot open a new system by selling just Bretonnia and Tomb Kings.

Than after 6 months they will release new models for Empire and O&G.

As far as army books go, who knows. Maybe just two army books for good and evil factions.

**Skywave**

Mallo wrote:

stonehorse wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

skeleton wrote:
Oke those skellys are maybe not the best models but they will go nicely whit my old skellys didnt buy enough when playing tk did have a lot of chariots, the only bret i need are some characters and those footknights. so will buy only the rules or the tk box if there is a nice price.

If you want good skeletons, buy the Warlord Skeletons. Absolutely fantastic looking Skeletons. Kit comes with shields, hand weapons, Spears, bows, and arrow quivers. Only thing missing is command groups, bit thise can be made from spare parts.

I love that skeleton kit. It got a bad rap due to some people crying about it on youtube, sure you do need a little more patience when putting them together but its a damn fine serviceable kit and looks properly in scale against WFB kits of the time. The tomb king skeletons are massive in comparison.

If the tomb kings were not getting a re-release then I'd have brought a couple of hundred more of the warlord ones and just used the old TK shields. But I'm happy with the TK ones being a bit bigger, as it separates my vampire counts ones (for which I am sticking with warlord games ones)

Yeah those Skeletons (originally from another manufacturer) are great! I got them when they were released by that other company. They used to come 30 to a box, so with two I made 50 warriors and 10 archers! Don't know what bad reap they got online but myself I loved them! Smaller and more delicate models for sure, but definitely worth it for the price. Added some TK to them and they look fantastic.

**insaniak**

Skywave wrote:

Yeah those Skeletons (originally from another manufacturer) are great! I got them when they were released by that other company. They used to come 30 to a box, so with two I made 50 warriors and 10 archers! Don't know what bad reap they got online but myself I loved them! Smaller and more delicate models for sure, but definitely worth it for the price. Added some TK to them and they look fantastic.

The 'bad rep' was just that they were really fiddly to build, due to the waist joints and separate feet, and the parts being so delicate. They are fantastic looking models once you get them together, though.

**Sotahullu**

Well more annoying part that there is no skeleton horsemen or chariot in similar way for Warlord Games otherwise good skeletons.

But there is Skeleton horsemen and chariots from Wargame Atlantic so I haven't given up entirely!

**JimmyWolf87**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/18/old-world-almanack-mustering-the-grand-army-of-bretonnia/

Army Building article is up. Mixture of points and core/special etc. so pretty familiar stuff, albeit each faction looks like it'll have bespoke lists to choose from.

Interesting distinction between mercenaries and allies.

**lord_blackfang**

Yea not sure why Mercs wouldn't just come under the Allies allowance.

Bit at the end implies that main factions get a physical army list of some format.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

OK. I don’t remember pre-6th Ed Warhammer list building terribly well, but this feels like a mix of post-6th WHFB and 2nd Ed 40K.

The “slots” are carried over (Characters, Core, Special, Rare) but rather than so many of each, it’s now a maximum percentage of your available points.

I’m encouraged by this.

**Sotahullu**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea not sure why Mercs wouldn't just come under the Allies allowance.

Bit at the end implies that main factions get a physical army list of some format.

I suspect that Mercs' are just the units you can have while Allies have Hero and certain number of units to be fielded, like 1 Hero and 3 units.

**JimmyWolf87**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea not sure why Mercs wouldn't just come under the Allies allowance.

It might just be so Ogres can operate as mercenaries and maybe future proofing in case they ever, somehow, do Dogs of War? Could even already be a list of fairly generic things like Tilean Crossbowmen, the mentioned Bombards etc. that get thrown in?

lord_blackfang wrote:
Bit at the end implies that main factions get a physical army list of some format.

I thought that was already stated, or at least heavily implied by them? Probably as a separate product to the core book (whether that's bespoke books for each faction or more of a compilation) but I was under the impression that there was already the idea that the core factions would get a physical release whereas the 'legacy' style lists would be PDF only for now.

**kodos**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea not sure why Mercs wouldn't just come under the Allies allowance.

without a better example an 40k one
you play Space Marines, chose your man Chapter (eg Dark Angels) and can use 20% as Mercs generic units and 25% as Allies from "Imperium" (eg Astra Militarum) or Eldar
so the Eldar will not benefit from any army rules but Mercs will

**tneva82**

lord_blackfang wrote:

Bit at the end implies that main factions get a physical army list of some format.

Hardly surprising. Who didn't expect army books to return?

**JimmyWolf87**

tneva82 wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:

Bit at the end implies that main factions get a physical army list of some format.

Hardly surprising. Who didn't expect army books to return?

Personally I'm not expecting full army books of old but something more akin to the Liber Astartes/Hereticus etc. style books that Horus Heresy got. You could probably do all the core factions in a single book (or at least 2 with an arbitrary order/destruction split and everyone complain that Tomb Kings are in the latter).

**lord_blackfang**

tneva82 wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:

Bit at the end implies that main factions get a physical army list of some format.

Hardly surprising. Who didn't expect army books to return?

I did but there was some uncertainty expressed recently in this thread about it, that's why I'm pointing it out.

**Kanluwen**

I figure the "surprise" on the 26this an Orc announcement.

On the Bretonnian note, what do we think the Sergeant at Arms will be?

**Graphite**

Off white kind of implies bones, so looks like more skellies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would guess that Sergeant at Arms will be a "commoner" low level hero so that you don't have the slightly odd look of a bunch of peasants and one Knight.