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 Mallo wrote:


I think this interview really highlights the hole they've dug for themselves. It sounds like they want to make this era of WFB more hopefully and bright than previous iterations, but are completely tied into mentioning the end times as many times as they can!

I'm sure this will be an enjoyable read, but I'm also sure we will end up with an 'end times' counter on some website, listing the amount of times they insert a mention of it into the new books no matter what the context of the story is!

I've always been sort of in the middle with my opinion of the end times, I don't hate it, I enjoyed those bits of it I have read, but I don't have a strong attachment to it either (ie: if they were to retcon it, I'd be like 'hey thats cool' and keep painting. I get why a lot of folk hate it and pretend it never existed), but I'm already finding their articles grating with the amount of times they go 'hey, you didn't forget the end times did you!', like they are trying to double down on how awesome it was.

So how does this differ from before? Warhammer world was fluffwise always doomed. Sure defeat.

Does it bother you that we know humanity is fetted in 40k as well? Just because they haven't told us how humanity dies doesn't mean humanity has any hope.

Warhammer never been about hopeful and bright. It's fighting despite knowing it's hopeless. Ultimately humans die.

(then again...Ultimately human dies in IRL as well. No matter what humanity dies eventually not just humans but everything that lives now or ever will live are dead...So warhammer kind of has a point )

So, someone foolishly streamed that they have the new book, but it sounds like leaks are starting to filter out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerFantasy/comments/18n7lsz/influencers_have_the_book_now_any_leaks_yet/

A few highlights from the comments section (Take with adequate salt supplements):

50% points limit for characters is the same for all factions, not just brets.

Wizards cannot dispel while in close combat because they are too distracted.

The limit for how many ranks you can claim in combat is based on the unit type.

The Horde rule that the men at arms have is NOT an extra rank gets to attack when you have a wide frontage.

Monsters' weapons, like dragon claws and beaks etc have built in AP that you don't see on the unit card. So the Hippogryph no doubt has some AP.

Armor from monsters and riders stacks

No step up is present.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

There also aren't any kits they can pull out of the metaphorical closet and put back into production

I don't think theres any evidence to support the idea that the scope changed, whatsoever, at all.

Yeah, but a lot of us seem to think that they changed the scope, which is kind of evidence in itself that they changed it. I am happy for a more Empire centric game btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scottywan82 wrote:
So, someone foolishly streamed that they have the new book, but it sounds like leaks are starting to filter out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerFantasy/comments/18n7lsz/influencers_have_the_book_now_any_leaks_yet/

A few highlights from the comments section (Take with adequate salt supplements):

From the stream (that has now been taken down):

50% points limit for characters is the same for all factions, not just brets.

Wizards cannot dispel while in close combat because they are too distracted.

The limit for how many ranks you can claim in combat is based on the unit type.

The Horde rule that the men at arms have is NOT an extra rank gets to attack when you have a wide frontage.

Monsters' weapons, like dragon claws and beaks etc have built in AP that you don't see on the unit card. So the Hippogryph no doubt has some AP.

armor from monsters and riders stacks,

all armies are 50% characters

no step up is present.

The game is just going for a sort of 5th/6th edition hybrid,

Looks good to me.

50% heroes sounds like a lot, but there are slots for the more mighty ones and you wont have to choose between a combat lord and a lvl4 spellcaster anymore.

Big upside that it means less troops and smaller armies. A beginner can just pimp 50% heroes and he will only need 1000 pts troops for a 2k game. I like it.

No project in history ever stays 100% exactly the same from initial “let’s do this” to release. This one is just a little more visible to us as they were actually mentioning stuff 3 years ago. Who knows how much Legions Imperialis changed over its years of development, we’ve got no idea tho as it wasn’t announced back then.

So yeah, scopes change. Ofc they do.

Probably too early to tell but any ideas on if giants will be included and if they would be a 'mercenaries' option or 'allies'?

MaxT wrote:
No project in history ever stays 100% exactly the same from initial “let’s do this” to release. This one is just a little more visible to us as they were actually mentioning stuff 3 years ago. Who knows how much Legions Imperialis changed over its years of development, we’ve got no idea tho as it wasn’t announced back then.

So yeah, scopes change. Ofc they do.

Of course things change during development, i'm sure there are plenty of things they considered or wanted to do but didn't manage to, but those don't really matter as we didn't know. It's a little different when they use show off certain things to tell us what the project is about and hype it up, only to then have those things noticeably missing from the end result though.

 triplegrim wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

There also aren't any kits they can pull out of the metaphorical closet and put back into production

I don't think theres any evidence to support the idea that the scope changed, whatsoever, at all.

Yeah, but a lot of us seem to think that they changed the scope, which is kind of evidence in itself that they changed it.

Thats.... thats not how that works.... thats not how any of this works....

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

MaxT wrote:
No project in history ever stays 100% exactly the same from initial “let’s do this” to release. This one is just a little more visible to us as they were actually mentioning stuff 3 years ago. Who knows how much Legions Imperialis changed over its years of development, we’ve got no idea tho as it wasn’t announced back then.
So yeah, scopes change. Ofc they do.

Of course things change during development, i'm sure there are plenty of things they considered or wanted to do but didn't manage to, but those don't really matter as we didn't know. It's a little different when they use show off certain things to tell us what the project is about and hype it up, only to then have those things noticeably missing from the end result though.

Just because they haven't told you about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't there or isn't happening. We haven't really seen "the end result". We've only seen the very early fruits of GWs labor and nothing more, and not even fully at that.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

There also aren't any kits they can pull out of the metaphorical closet and put back into production

I don't think theres any evidence to support the idea that the scope changed, whatsoever, at all.

Yeah, but a lot of us seem to think that they changed the scope, which is kind of evidence in itself that they changed it.

Thats.... thats not how that works.... thats not how any of this works....

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

MaxT wrote:
No project in history ever stays 100% exactly the same from initial “let’s do this” to release. This one is just a little more visible to us as they were actually mentioning stuff 3 years ago. Who knows how much Legions Imperialis changed over its years of development, we’ve got no idea tho as it wasn’t announced back then.
So yeah, scopes change. Ofc they do.

Of course things change during development, i'm sure there are plenty of things they considered or wanted to do but didn't manage to, but those don't really matter as we didn't know. It's a little different when they use show off certain things to tell us what the project is about and hype it up, only to then have those things noticeably missing from the end result though.

Just because they haven't told you about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't there or isn't happening. We haven't really seen "the end result". We've only seen the very early fruits of GWs labor and nothing more, and not even fully at that.

We saw Kislev and Cathay and were told they were coming for this, but we know they are not part of what they're doing at this point. They might show up eventually, but that doesn't change that they showed things and hyped the game with stuff that has no direct relevance to the project for potentially years after its main release, if ever.

Edited for rule 1.

anything related from TOW and TWW was marketing speech and nothing more

simply because the target audience is/was seen with the TWW player as well als old-world fans for both

by that time they may still not have none more, as the people who write the articles can only write about what they get access too

same as with the rules articles at the moment, chance is high that the people who write those don't have the rulebook but only get the information needed for the specific articles and not more

 Scottywan82 wrote:

No step up is present.

that was confirmed in one of the WC articles.

There is nothing reasonable and everything asinine about making up your own facts about the release schedule, which is exactly what you are doing. You have been provided with no information, facts, or anything else which would indicate when Kislev is to be released.

GW is very clearly initiating the launch of this game with existing kits for existing factions, whatever the timeline for them to work through all that ends up looking like is anyones guess at the end, but with rules for all of them being available on release day its unlikely to take them "years" to put a bunch of 20 year old kits back into production. The rather conservative approach of seemingly only releasing 1-2 new plastic kits per faction is also at odds with how they launched Horus Heresy (if you want to talk about things being in-line with how GW typically operates), which launched with no less than 9 new plastic kits (+a handful more existing) in the initial launch weekend plus another 9 or so new plastic kits released within approx. 6 months of the first wave, to say nothing of another couple dozen + resin kits released over the same time period. Based on what we know of Tomb Kings and Bretonnia, GW will likely put out about that many new kits for TOW for the 9 returning core factions, which based on this should only take them the aforementioned 6 months or so to do. Unless your expectation is that GW is only going to continue releasing kits for existing factions into the indefinite future, they will need to fill their release slots with something else, dont you think? They haven't spent the last 3 years since they first mentioned kislev doing nothing with them (despite your beliefs to the contrary), and given that they typically operate in a ~3 year development cycle from concept to release on miniatures, accounting for whats likely a 6-12 month delay caused by COVID in the intervening timeframe, that puts a likely Kislev release by the end of next year or maybe early into 2025. Personally, I am betting that Kislev comes out next November/December, as per its namesake in the Hebrew calendar - quite likely next years big black friday release.

SU-152 wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:

No step up is present.

that was confirmed in one of the WC articles.

I think strongly hinted at is more accurate:

You roll as many dice as your engaged models have Attacks and, with the higher Initiative models striking first, a charging unit has the opportunity to overwhelm its enemies before they have the wit to swing back. Next, you roll to wound and make armour saves as normal.

The only way that sentence makes sense is if you don't step up.

Not being able to dispel while in combat is massive. Love it for the tactical possibilities it brings

MaxT wrote:
Not being able to dispel while in combat is massive. Love it for the tactical possibilities it brings

Wonder if Dwarfs will get to ignore this (or if they'll just rely on their innate resistance).

So we're back to the old 'wipe the front rank and the enemy can't fight back' then? Makes infantry a lot less useful...

Might also explain why HE and DE aren't being supported at first; those two armies would be devastating with built-in ASF.

There was a time when they didn’t all have ASF. Could be that they don’t have it now.

And HE are being supported I thought?

Rule-wise the game looks to be pretty interesting so far, seems like a proper return to a WHFB style of game. Hopefully they don't repeat some of the issues it had too, mainly with the pricing/costs to get into, especially as that's one of the reasons it got replaced in the first place.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There is nothing reasonable and everything asinine about making up your own facts about the release schedule, which is exactly what you are doing.

I didn't say anything as if it was a fact, you've just chosen to interpret it that way. Giving an opinion about how it will possibly go =/= "making up your own facts".

In the very same post that you frame someone providing their thoughts on when they might possibly release based on what little information there is as making up facts, you then do the very same thing yourself...

 Vulcan wrote:
So we're back to the old 'wipe the front rank and the enemy can't fight back' then? Makes infantry a lot less useful...

Or just further encourages a wider frontage, the minimise the chance of losing all your return strikes. Gone are the days of minimal 4/5 frontages!

MaxT wrote:
There was a time when they didn’t all have ASF. Could be that they don’t have it now.

And HE are being supported I thought?

HE & WE are in.

And I'd bet elves don't get ASF. But Swordmasters probably get a rule to not strike last with great weapons though, as always.

As a fan of Iron Breakers in my dwarves I personally like the kill and stuff doesn't hit back (hint cause they rarely died!). But it'll definitely slow the game down in combination with the new psych rules.

 Hulksmash wrote:
As a fan of Iron Breakers in my dwarves I personally like the kill and stuff doesn't hit back (hint cause they rarely died!). But it'll definitely slow the game down in combination with the new psych rules.

I liked it because my Dark Elves tended to be fragile! ASF/High Initiative/Charging became almost pointless fi you score a ton of casualties but then get wiped out, anyway.

Yeah, I kinda always liked the feel of it. In my gut it tells me that although it'll slow the game down with the new resolution rules it's probably actually the best blend but until I play a bit I don't KNOW it's the best resolution

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Rule-wise the game looks to be pretty interesting so far, seems like a proper return to a WHFB style of game. Hopefully they don't repeat some of the issues it had too, mainly with the pricing/costs to get into, especially as that's one of the reasons it got replaced in the first place.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There is nothing reasonable and everything asinine about making up your own facts about the release schedule, which is exactly what you are doing.

I didn't say anything as if it was a fact, you've just chosen to interpret it that way. Giving an opinion about how it will possibly go =/= "making up your own facts".

In the very same post that you frame someone providing their thoughts on when they might possibly release based on what little information there is as making up facts, you then do the very same thing yourself...

This is what you said:

We saw Kislev and Cathay and were told they were coming for this, but we know they are not part of what they're doing at this point.

That is a statement of fact, not of your thoughts or beliefs, and one which is unsubstantiated by anything we actually do know, as there has been no confirmation, rumor, or announcement of any sort that Kislev and Cathay are no longer planned for TOW.

Look people, we have something more important to discuss:

What do we think Squires are going to be?!

 Scottywan82 wrote:
So, someone foolishly streamed that they have the new book, but it sounds like leaks are starting to filter out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerFantasy/comments/18n7lsz/influencers_have_the_book_now_any_leaks_yet/

A few highlights from the comments section (Take with adequate salt supplements):

50% points limit for characters is the same for all factions, not just brets.

Wizards cannot dispel while in close combat because they are too distracted.

The limit for how many ranks you can claim in combat is based on the unit type.

The Horde rule that the men at arms have is NOT an extra rank gets to attack when you have a wide frontage.

Monsters' weapons, like dragon claws and beaks etc have built in AP that you don't see on the unit card. So the Hippogryph no doubt has some AP.

Armor from monsters and riders stacks

No step up is present.

WRONG! The streamer did NOT confirm most of those things. He said 'I don't think step up is in the book'. Also no conformation for silly heavy armor stacking.
Also step up was never an actual rule in 8th. We just call it that. So of course he did not see it in his quick look trough.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Look people, we have something more important to discuss:

What do we think Squires are going to be?!

personally I suspect they will be light cavalry, essentially because thats more or less what they are in the Warmaster Brettonia list. unarmoured horse, lightly armoured rider, spear, maybe a bow

tneva82 wrote:

 Mallo wrote:


I think this interview really highlights the hole they've dug for themselves. It sounds like they want to make this era of WFB more hopefully and bright than previous iterations, but are completely tied into mentioning the end times as many times as they can!

I'm sure this will be an enjoyable read, but I'm also sure we will end up with an 'end times' counter on some website, listing the amount of times they insert a mention of it into the new books no matter what the context of the story is!

I've always been sort of in the middle with my opinion of the end times, I don't hate it, I enjoyed those bits of it I have read, but I don't have a strong attachment to it either (ie: if they were to retcon it, I'd be like 'hey thats cool' and keep painting. I get why a lot of folk hate it and pretend it never existed), but I'm already finding their articles grating with the amount of times they go 'hey, you didn't forget the end times did you!', like they are trying to double down on how awesome it was.

So how does this differ from before? Warhammer world was fluffwise always doomed. Sure defeat.

Does it bother you that we know humanity is fetted in 40k as well? Just because they haven't told us how humanity dies doesn't mean humanity has any hope.

Warhammer never been about hopeful and bright. It's fighting despite knowing it's hopeless. Ultimately humans die.

(then again...Ultimately human dies in IRL as well. No matter what humanity dies eventually not just humans but everything that lives now or ever will live are dead...So warhammer kind of has a point )

Yeah, it does.

There’s a huge difference between having the flavor of an inevitable doom and the actual end of everything that invests one in the setting. And that’s even if you believe the tone of inevitable doom means the doom is inevitable. I never really thought the Warhammer World was as doomed as described.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Look people, we have something more important to discuss:

What do we think Squires are going to be?!

In the 5th edition army book you could include one regiment of squires per regiment of knights. They were skirmishing peasants who could take either bows or spears and could be mounted. 6th edition replaced them with mounted yeoman and the option to make one unit of peasant bowmen skirmishers. The lore has them as gofers and attendants to knights so i'm hoping there's some sort of synergy between them beyond leadership buffs. Otherwise keep them as mobile harassers and chaff to block charges.

Moreover, I just want GW to put the miniatures back in production. They're so much better than the plastic men at arms and bowmen.

leopard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Look people, we have something more important to discuss:

What do we think Squires are going to be?!

personally I suspect they will be light cavalry, essentially because thats more or less what they are in the Warmaster Brettonia list. unarmoured horse, lightly armoured rider, spear, maybe a bow

Mounted Yeoman would fill that role, no?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Coolyo294 wrote:
In the 5th edition army book you could include one regiment of squires per regiment of knights. They were skirmishing peasants who could take either bows or spears and could be mounted. 6th edition replaced them with mounted yeoman and the option to make one unit of peasant bowmen skirmishers. The lore has them as gofers and attendants to knights so i'm hoping there's some sort of synergy between them beyond leadership buffs. Otherwise keep them as mobile harassers and chaff to block charges.

Moreover, I just want GW to put the miniatures back in production. They're so much better than the plastic men at arms and bowmen.

A friend of mine just grabbed me a collection of unopened Squire blisters as a Christmas present, so I'm trying to suss out what they might be. Total War has them as greatsword/halberd wielders and the models I could find are bows...definitely hoping for the bow angle!