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Lord Zarkov wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
We know that Louen is dead sometime before 2297, as thats the year that King Jules the Just (who had ruled for several years at that point) is slain and succeeded by Gaston de Beau Geste as part of the Affair of the False Grail, so Grail Vow or no hes got to be near the end of his extended life span. How old is the average Grail Knight anyway? I have to imagine that becoming a Grail Knight takes many years of questing and most don't succeed in becoming a Grail Knight until their 30s or 40s. That alone would push Louens age well over 100 years.

Would be interesting, if the way they are doing this is periodically releasing Arcane Tomes that nudge the narrative along, if Louen Orc-Slayer dies as part of the narrative and you see the accession of Jules le Just before moving on to the Affair of the False Grail (which happens a little before the GWAC). Perhaps he could appear earlier in the story as a Duke?

Affair of the False Grail could be great fodder for variant armies and special characters.

I think more likely than an Arcane Tome they would just release a narrative expansion book about the Affair of the False Grail that would contain everything of relevance. Imagine a book similar to Siege of Cthonia for Horus Heresy.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Many were thinking that because the game was named "The Old World" it would be set in that area and focus on the armies there but I was saying that the term "Old World" quite often gets used by GW to refer to WHFB, rather than just the continent of The Old World. I wasn't one who thought the game would be smaller scale based on the naming.

Right, my point was though that this is exactly what ended up happening, even if you didn't believe it at the time (really I promise Im not trying to "I told you so" here). The clues were always there, GWs statements and the information GW was provided all alluded to idea of it, even if they never directly or overtly stated as such.

Really don't know what "clues and indicators were all there from the start" you mean though as re-reading some of the articles, beyond the use of the term "The Old World" (which as I said gets used to refer to the WHFB setting and not just that area of it, sometimes) there isn't really much that suggests it either way.

You don't think the fact that (barring the article about Cathay and one of the later Kislev maps that stretched as far as the Mountains of Mourn), all the maps that they produced only covered the actual continent called THE OLD WORLD was maybe a pretty big clue? The fact that from the get-go this was framed as the Horus Heresy analogue for Age of Sigmar (which itself indicated a limited focus on a narrow scope, there are no xenos in HH after all)? The first actual article for the game portraying 4 Empire factions rather than one, which right off the bat informed us the game was set in a different time period (one which could have easily been even more restrictive than what it ended up being in the end) which precluded a number of possible characters and units from participating in the game? The fact that the presence of a splintered Emprie faction implied the possibility that there might not even be an Empire faction and instead you would have four distinct army lists with four distinct and separate model ranges (this one hasn't come to pass, at least not yet - but it seems unlikely to be the direction that it goes in). The fact that ongoing development of the map never really indicated any faction symbols for Skaven, Vampire Counts, Ogres, Chorfs, Lizardmen, etc. might have also been a clue - I remember we all wised up to the idea that the symbols were tied to supported factions early on, we got pretty excited when the High Elves and Wood Elves symbols showed up for example.

I dunno, we clearly have and have had different perspectives on it. I clearly saw something in what was being shown to us that pointed me in the right direction, but which you and many others missed. I'm not clairvoyant, I very much doubt that I pulled GWs intent out of the ether basically whole cloth, but something in the minimal communication GW provided to us was enough to communicate to me (but not unto thee) what reasonable expectations for the future were (and even then I still wasnt 100% spot on, I never thought they'd have the balls to launch this game with the original WHFB miniatures range).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Messing around with the interactive map on the Old World website - some interesting morsels there that point to possible future narrative direction for the game to take. Maldred is Duke of Mousillon, and Mousillon is one of the few interactable cities on the map, so it seems the Affair of the False Grail will eventually be featured.

Donalba in the Border Princes is confirmed to be a cast-out Estalian prince (called it)! Tordorno is a Tilean merchant prince (also called it)! Uvetovsk is likewise Kislevite (and apparently has enemies in Kislev that he is trying to escape). Ortegata is also Estalian.

Theres some further hints that aren't interactive - theres more than just 4 empire factions for example, theres also a Croop VI in Mootland, factions in Averland, Wissenland, and Sudenland, Engelweiss IX in Stirland, and another faction in Ostermark. Joining Harkon in the Border Princes as a possible vampiric faction is also "Drakvald" in Sylvania.

So there’s an interactive version of the map on the new website. Confirms Mousillion is run by Maldred already, so an Affair of the False Grail scenario seems fairly likely.

The other major tidbit I found is it seems the Talebheim led Empire faction is the most magical, since it specifically calls out it being a home for warlocks.

All Bret, TK and Border Princes factions have information on them plus the 4 major Empire ones.

Interestingly, despite VC not being a core faction, the Harkon BP faction is one with more information on it. Assume it’s Walach since Luthor should already be in Lustria.

 Olthannon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?

Can't see any mention of them.

Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.

Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.

No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.

Valete,

JohnS

Really enjoying all the lore snippets on the interactive map - interesting that many of the Border Prince and Princesses are not starting factions - we have Vampires, Kislev, Estalian, Tilean.

Also seems to be a Duchess ruling a Bretonnian duchy but she may just be the wife or widow of an absent lord

I suspect all the relevant pieces from Ravening Hordes and the other book will find their way into tools like Battlescribe very quickly.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.

No, we weren't.

But looking back, I'm not sure WHY we weren't. This is perfectly in character for GW.

Ah. Point to 3 books you need to buy to play necrons? Cities of sigmar? Horus heresy blood angels?

This is very non-typical launch for gw.

If this succeeds, expect it to happen in the other games too.

 cygnnus wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?

Can't see any mention of them.

Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.

Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.

No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.

Valete,

JohnS

Is the free PDF army list and the likely complete model range refresh they'll be receiving with Age of Sigmar not enough for you? Just buy the AoS models and some sets of square bases and you're golden.

 mattl wrote:
I suspect all the relevant pieces from Ravening Hordes and the other book will find their way into tools like Battlescribe very quickly.

which does not make it better, and sending the signal to GW that no matter what they do you are going to support them and their games will for sure help changing things

 Vulcan wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.

No, we weren't.

But looking back, I'm not sure WHY we weren't. This is perfectly in character for GW.

Ah. Point to 3 books you need to buy to play necrons? Cities of sigmar? Horus heresy blood angels?

This is very non-typical launch for gw.

If this succeeds, expect it to happen in the other games too.

Doubtful. Different product line catering to a different audience and market with a different release model. 40k and AoS are the mainline "competitive" games intended for mainstream audiences and "optimized" for play in a competitive space. They largely minimize the books needed to play those competitively, with the exception of the end-of-cycle releases where they put out new units in one-off books that will be obsolete within 3-6 months of release.

TOW, like HH, Necromunda, etc. is a "casual" (narrative moreso than "casual") gamers game which will have its releases sprawled out across countless books.

To tnevas point, to play your Horus Heresy Blood Angels currently you need the Age of Darkness Rulebook + Liber Astartes + Siege of Cthonia for the Blood Angels Inductii rules + the Legacies of the Age of Darkness: Legiones Astartes PDF for the expanded unit list + Exemplary Battles: The Death of Canopus PDF for the Blood Angels Ofanim Court unit rules (which lets be real, will eventually be published into a future volume of the Exemplary Battles series like the one that has the rules for Daemon Fulgrim). So, actually yes - if you want to play Horus Heresy Blood Angels you currently need 3 books + 2 PDFs. One of those PDFs will eventually convert to book #4. Its quite likely that there will be a couple more books beyond that as GW has said that some of the units found in the Legacies PDF will eventually be repulbished in other sources as well. Etc.

With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?

Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.

Does make more sense now that Waagh is a Rulebook lore.

 cygnnus wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?

Can't see any mention of them.

Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.

Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.

No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.

Valete,

JohnS

If this goes by the way of the Warmaster release route, we/ll be waiting a long time for Skaven, Dark Elves & Lizardmen. But for Lizardmen, I'd much rather play with my new bigger, tougher looking Seraphon. I can imagine Empire & Orcs Goblins as the next armies released.

Well there is Battle Magic, Dark Magic, Daemonology, Elementalism, High Magic, Illusion, Necromancy, and Waaagh! Magic. Some of those sound like they would exclusive to some factions.

And I now speculate that Liche Priest have spell(s) that they always know regardless of the lore they pick and they probaply can take either Lore of Battle, Dark or Necromancy.

So I am bit skeptical on Journal having a whole separate Lore of Magic but rather there is singular spells that are tied to lists and magic items. Makes more sense in my mind.

 Sotahullu wrote:


So I am bit skeptical on Journal having a whole separate Lore of Magic but rather there is singular spells that are tied to lists and magic items. Makes more sense in my mind.

It could vary Journal by Journal. For example I could see the Mortuary Cult in the TK Journal getting a Lore of Magic of its own, but the Bret lists probably wouldn't. And then you may get new Virtues in the Bret Journal where there may not be an equivalent in the TK one.

On the handmaiden of the Lady profile there is a mention of a lore of the Lady, so maybe that is in the journal as a complete lore?

 Sotahullu wrote:
Well there is Battle Magic, Dark Magic, Daemonology, Elementalism, High Magic, Illusion, Necromancy, and Waaagh! Magic. Some of those sound like they would exclusive to some factions.

And I now speculate that Liche Priest have spell(s) that they always know regardless of the lore they pick and they probaply can take either Lore of Battle, Dark or Necromancy.

So I am bit skeptical on Journal having a whole separate Lore of Magic but rather there is singular spells that are tied to lists and magic items. Makes more sense in my mind.

Those are the Rulebook lores, but we also know there is a Lore of Nehekhara as we got details on one of its spells in the magic article.

Presumably that’s in the first AJ.


Agree with MaxT that it probably varies journal to journal.

I don’t see why they can’t have faction magic in the index books either; they’re kind of chunky for four and five army lists having minimal description. Roughly 40 pages per faction.

 cygnnus wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?

Can't see any mention of them.

Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.

Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.

No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.

Valete,

JohnS

Skaven&dark elves gets rules including armies of infamy. What they dont get is new models & fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I don’t see why they can’t have faction magic in the index books either; they’re kind of chunky for four and five army lists having minimal description. Roughly 40 pages per faction.

Pounds. Cash.

They want to sell arcane books. Need to have rules you need.

 Overread wrote:
I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army
I will not start a new army

Yes you will.
The only question is wich one you start with.

I didn't think skaven and dark elves were getting armies of infamy. That's an arcane tome thing, and they don't get one of those?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I didn't think skaven and dark elves were getting armies of infamy. That's an arcane tome thing, and they don't get one of those?

It is my understanding that pdf factions only get the Grand Army list

I'm as excited for this as I was plastic HH. I'm approaching 40. GW know what they're doing, and I applaud their ability to make me a cantankerous old man and then market to my rancor with new games that feel like my old games.

I'll buy one of each of these boxes, and then make a Vampire Counts army with lovely, square bases.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The "standard 3-year churn" wasn't a thing until around 7th or 8th ed 40k, circa 2015-2019 area. Before that, the editions for both 40k and fantasy varied between 4-5 years on average.

I'm speaking in retrospect. At the time, the sentiment was that GW was inching to a finished, final edition of both games. The rift between 2nd and 3rd 40k was broad and deep, but 4th sort of flowed out of 3rd through 3.5.

When 7th ed. WHFB came out and fixed nothing but boosted the model count, it didn't make sense, but in hindsight that was where the idea (if not the practice) of churn began.

And having happened, it's hard not to expect it to happen again, especially since the initial launch here is small, which not only allows new factions, but new editions to promote them.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?

Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.

We won't know for sure until they're released, but my understanding is that the two big army books are supposed to allow you to play "standard army", which for the TK requires you to have access to the Lore of Nehekara. You can't really have TK without that lore, which has always been unique to the Tomb Kings, and is required in order to fulfill some fairly basic functions.

I mean, I expect the Dark Elf PDF list to have access to Dark Magic, even though no further Dark Elf releases are to be expected (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see a one-off at some point). Dark Magic is a basic part of the Dark Elves, and it wouldn't be Dark Elves without access to Dark Lore. Similarly, you can't have Tomb Kings without Lore of Nehekara. That lore is part of what makes the Tomb Kings Tomb Kings.

As a result, I suspect that the Lore of Nehekara will be in the Ravening Hordes book, and not in the TK journal. Though the TK journal might have a variant version of it for a specific army list found in the journal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I didn't think skaven and dark elves were getting armies of infamy. That's an arcane tome thing, and they don't get one of those?

It is my understanding that pdf factions only get the Grand Army list

This is correct. No further releases are to be expected for those armies. IMO, it's possible that we might see one or two in the future to fit in with a narrative event. But such things would be years in the future at this point, not for some time, and should not be a reason to buy the army until one is actually released.

Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.

 Ahtman wrote:
Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.

The miniatures part is unrealistic, but the precedent of a get-you-by book for every faction (even ones that would subsequently be dropped) has been set in both 40k (the Black Codex) and WHFB (Ravening Hordes 6th ed.). So it's not unreasonable, especially if the stated purpose is to bring wayward gamers 'home'.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Considering the nature of the project I'm surprised so many people thought every old faction was going to get a full rule set and miniatures release.

The miniatures part is unrealistic, but the precedent of a get-you-by book for every faction (even ones that would subsequently be dropped) has been set in both 40k (the Black Codex) and WHFB (Ravening Hordes 6th ed.). So it's not unreasonable, especially if the stated purpose is to bring wayward gamers 'home'.

I'm not saying it is unreasonable just that I never got the impression this was going to be a line wide revival, even if just talking about books. I'm sure if it sells surprisingly well and appears to have legs we'll see a third or fourth book of factions somewhere down the line.

 Popsghostly wrote:

 cygnnus wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, just to be clear, I guess screw you if you play Dark Elves?

Can't see any mention of them.

Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven all cast to the AoS bin for now.

Yeah…. This is serious issue for me possibly getting back into Warhammer vice sticking with Kings of War.

No Skaven? Non-starter for my interest in a rank and flank “Warhammer-ish” game.

Valete,

JohnS

If this goes by the way of the Warmaster release route, we/ll be waiting a long time for Skaven, Dark Elves & Lizardmen. But for Lizardmen, I'd much rather play with my new bigger, tougher looking Seraphon. I can imagine Empire & Orcs Goblins as the next armies released.

Warmaster won't be the release model. I'm not sure anyone still at GW even remembers that game.
The release model will either go off in weird new directions, or be more akin to HH2, Warcry or Newcromunda.
(For books alone) I'd wager on HH2 just for the opening salvo of rules plus good vs evil army books with a vague sense of more later on an uncertain timeline, with some things only getting pdf support. With the audience wishing for their specific faction to turn up sooner or later (like solar auxiliary)

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


And having happened, it's hard not to expect it to happen again, especially since the initial launch here is small, which not only allows new factions, but new editions to promote them.

Apart from not being 40k&aos. Other games haven't shown new edition at constant rate or at least if constant gap is longer. Like new hh every 10 years and at every 6 years(minimum seeing 2nd ed hasn't come yet)

So new edition might come but decade later. And meanwhile support might be level of life support.

Eumerin wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
With the Arcane Journals; has anyone noticed that there’s nothing to say the extra spells and items won’t be tied to the special army lists, kinda like 40K enhancements and stratagems are tied to their detachments?

Could well be for some tbh, though for the first TK one I assume the spell lore will be Lore of Nehekhara which should probably be usable by all TK armies.

We won't know for sure until they're released, but my understanding is that the two big army books are supposed to allow you to play "standard army", which for the TK requires you to have access to the Lore of Nehekara. You can't really have TK without that lore, which has always been unique to the Tomb Kings, and is required in order to fulfill some fairly basic functions.

I mean, I expect the Dark Elf PDF list to have access to Dark Magic, even though no further Dark Elf releases are to be expected (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see a one-off at some point). Dark Magic is a basic part of the Dark Elves, and it wouldn't be Dark Elves without access to Dark Lore. Similarly, you can't have Tomb Kings without Lore of Nehekara. That lore is part of what makes the Tomb Kings Tomb Kings.

As a result, I suspect that the Lore of Nehekara will be in the Ravening Hordes book, and not in the TK journal. Though the TK journal might have a variant version of it for a specific army list found in the journal.

Dark Magic is a Rulebook lore so DE won’t need a lore in their pdf.

Given Waagh magic is a Rulebook lore despite only one army using it, I’m dubious there’s entire lores in the compendia, though it does seem there are some spells in them according to the article.

Might be TK get Necromancy plus 1-2 of the others in the compendium, then gets the full Lore of Nehekhara in the AJ. Someone needs to be using Necromancy from the main armies given it is a Rulebook lore.

NB, while we know Lore of Nehekhara is coming somewhere, 8th Ed is the one one of the 4 rule sets TK had* which featured a full Lore of Nehekhara, so it’s not that fundamental to them.

*5th Ed WD list, 6th Ed RH, 6th Ed AB, 8th Ed AB