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GW is applying their luxury multiplier to metal, which given the starting price of white metal minis, really magnifies the lunacy. I just bought a heavy handful of metal miniatures from Crooked Dice at mostly £4 each. You might think you would pay more to get models from a tiny company with no economy of scale, but you'd be wrong, GW needs much more money.

Just the rules for old world supposedly is $70 core, $50 for either ravenous hordes or forces of fantasy for your faction, and $30 for arcane journal. So $150 USD?

I appreciate Conquest giving us free rules and an awesome app for free so much after this fiasco.

It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

 nathan2004 wrote:
It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

The Ferrari is 10yo old models?

Sasorijap wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

The Ferrari is 10yo old models?

The rules are the Ferrari. What we have seen so far and how beautiful the books look, it is worth the price. I don't care about Conquest, KoW and any other fantasy rank & file games. I am just happy they brought back Warhammer and it looks like the did a good job with it. Honestly I love it that it became a specialist game. The rules will not change as frequently as with 40K and AoS. Which is a plus. Hopefully they will just release after all the Arcane journals, on a semi-regular base 9-12 months a campaign book with a couple of new mini's. It doesn't need be to more than that.

 nathan2004 wrote:
It was never going to be free, no one expected that. Like looking at a Ferrari and saying you appreciate the cost of a Kia lol.

a KIA is likely going to last longer and be more reliable...


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indeed that price for the rules, which is not too bad, then another not exactly cheap book for the army lists - indeed two such books

I was looking forward to this, I think, especially in the post Christmas "meah" with a credit card thats crying I may end up giving this a miss

not so much the price itself, but not spending that without a chance to see it and read a few actually independent reviews of it, and by that time likely sold out so will have to wait and see

Tonhel wrote:
The rules are the Ferrari.

I had a little laugh there.

Even though WHFB got me into wargaming... it did so in the mid 90's.

These days, I wouldn't call it any edition I played a well written game. Granted, they may improve it with this new edition, but I'm going to guess that like almost all GW games it'll be written terribly, overcomplicated rules that are excessively verbose and convoluted with an unnecessary amount of interactions and rules exceptions that ends up resulting in a game that takes far longer than it should to play.

Prove me wrong, GW, prove me wrong...

230 euros for TK army. Damn, that's expensive

It is premium book in layout and design
Hardcover, full colour etc

The contents not so much, unless there are a lot of new artwork, which GW has not even done for 40k, it is not that special

It is rather a VW beetle with a Porsche 911 skin than a Ferrari
Which is still nice for collectors who don't have a 911 but not comparable to modern sports cars

 Londinium wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

We don't need to. GW has said enough about their business being about plastic. It's a question of when, not if. Only way I doesn't happen is if TOW doesn't sell and fails to meet projections.

Only if TOW is a big enough success and there's a hell of a lot of metal models they'd have to resculpt.

There is precedent mind - Blood Bowl was supposed to be only 4 plastic teams and the rest in resin but sold so well that they pivoted to producing all the teams in plastic and here we are 20 odd teams later.

None of those teams are Khemri and orcs and humans got a second team before Khemri got one at all.

Tomb Kings don't get new stuff. If you want to buy into the army, better get used to the idea that it has always been near the bottom of GW's priority list. Otherwise you'll just set yourself up for disappointment.

 Geifer wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Seems the prices are what i thought theyd be. Was already planning to skip the metal kits expecting them to be expensive. They seem likely to have a short life and it should be possible to build a decent army without them until gw eventually resculpts them into plastic.

I don't think we've seen anything yet to indicate this will be the case.

We don't need to. GW has said enough about their business being about plastic. It's a question of when, not if. Only way I doesn't happen is if TOW doesn't sell and fails to meet projections.

Only if TOW is a big enough success and there's a hell of a lot of metal models they'd have to resculpt.

There is precedent mind - Blood Bowl was supposed to be only 4 plastic teams and the rest in resin but sold so well that they pivoted to producing all the teams in plastic and here we are 20 odd teams later.

None of those teams are Khemri and orcs and humans got a second team before Khemri got one at all.

Tomb Kings don't get new stuff. If you want to buy into the army, better get used to the idea that it has always been near the bottom of GW's priority list. Otherwise you'll just set yourself up for disappointment.

Other than the new dragon, tomb king on foot, standard bearer, hero and tomb swarms.

Otherwise yes nothing.

Feel free to be snarky, but I'm offering genuine advice. Chances are, as has been amply discussed before, that The Old World launches with Bretonnians and Tomb Kings because the miniatures haven't been sold by GW for the better part of a decade. That's not confidence in those armies but confidence in people's nostalgia.

I'd be delighted if a ton of people bought into The Old World specifically via Tomb Kings, because short of stellar sales numbers there is absolutely no reason to believe that Tomb Kings are going to get any more model support for a long time. Sure, they get a few resin characters and a really pointless second centerpiece monster for their launch. A token model release is GW standard at this point. We shouldn't expect less. But there is no telling when, if at all, Tomb Kings feature again in a book release to prompt another model update or token resin character. Not that the latter will do you any good if you're waiting for staple regiments.

I have no intention of stopping anyone from getting into Tomb Kings. If you like the models that are on offer now, great. Just be aware that there's no point in holding back on buying models in the hope of plastic replacements. You'll just waste years waiting for something that's not coming when you could spend that time playing the army composition you want to play.

Blood Bowl is something very different

All plastic sprues in BB combined are not enough to get a single army upgraded in TOW.

And saying if a system sell well it gets new plastic and old metal replaced just implies that Lord of the Rings is not selling at all

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Other than the new dragon, tomb king on foot, standard bearer, hero and tomb swarms.

Otherwise yes nothing.

And yet it's the same amount of new kits as the skavens have gotten on the latest 9 years for AoS

Meanwhile, bretonnians will get the new Lord/Battle Standard Bearer on Pegasus, Knights of the Realm on Foot, Handmaiden of the Lady, Battle Standard Bearer on Foot, Questing Knight Paladin with Great Weapon and Lady Élisse Duchaard, which, yes, makes for more new minis than the skavens in AoS! (alltho, honestly, Im happy for the fandoms of both, it was about time you got some love)

Are... are we converting into the new bretonnians of warhammer?

Well I put my name down for Tomb Kings dice and a box of Tomb Guard for old times' sake.

Ain't dumb enough to be buying GW rules sight unseen.

Lord of the Rings is a bit special since it isn't GWs own IP.

Anything they make for their own IPs are things that are guaranteed to be used for as long as they want to. They also get 100% of the profits from it.

If they make a new model/sculpt/mould for MESBG they need to have it approved by the rights owner (small extra cost here) and any models they make they give a small share to the rights owner (another small cost) and the amount of time they will be able to profit from this new release is unknown. It might be a few years until the next time they have to negotiate the rights and they lose the IP or it might be for decades more. If it is for a longer time and the model sells well it might show the IP owner that there is a lot of profit in the license and they will want a higher cut from GW in the future and thus lowering the profit margins for GW even if the model sells well.

As long as GW have other projects and plans for their own IPs and still have models to redo in plastic or have issues supplying their own games the Lord of the Rings line will be a lower priority and only getting scraps. Which is actually a good thing since the less attention you get from current GW the better the state of the game is.

Garrac wrote:

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Other than the new dragon, tomb king on foot, standard bearer, hero and tomb swarms.

Otherwise yes nothing.

And yet it's the same amount of new kits as the skavens have gotten on the latest 9 years for AoS

Meanwhile, bretonnians will get the new Lord/Battle Standard Bearer on Pegasus, Knights of the Realm on Foot, Handmaiden of the Lady, Battle Standard Bearer on Foot, Questing Knight Paladin with Great Weapon and Lady Élisse Duchaard, which, yes, makes for more new minis than the skavens in AoS! (alltho, honestly, Im happy for the fandoms of both, it was about time you got some love)

Are... are we converting into the new bretonnians of warhammer?

I would have been happier to see an upgrade to the core boxes for both armies instead of ancillary stuff like characters. Those icky TK skeletons are a turn off, and I know some people like them, but the old Bretonnian models were due an upgrade roughly a decade ago.


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 nathan2004 wrote:
There will literally be no pleasing some of you.

Ah yes, the most impactful argument that was ever made on this here dakka.

 kodos wrote:
And saying if a system sell well it gets new plastic and old metal replaced just implies that Lord of the Rings is not selling at all

MESBG has had loads of characters replaced until this period of silence which many have assumed to be an issue with licensing. It also got the Battlehosts and Osgiliath boxsets so it was still getting new ways to start armies.
MESBG and TOW differ because MESBG is a skirmish-style game where each model is an individual while TOW is mass battles. Those metal models sell far less often because far fewer are needed in an army.

a lot of LotR is character models or somewhat specialised things, coupled with as a game you don't need all that many models either

in effect where a given "box" could sell multiple copies to a 40k or fantasy player it may be just a single box to LotR

could be not so much it doesn't sell as well as the game structure means it will never sell as well

leopard wrote:
could be not so much it doesn't sell as well as the game structure means it will never sell as well

It's 100% this. Back when our group got into MESBG with its rebrand from LotR and Hobbit, most of us bought the basic "troop" box and a hero or two and that was it. There were a few people who went all in and got a legion of Uruk Hai but most of us were content with a Warband or two.
Then GW released the Battlecompanies ruleset which incentivised playing with just one Warband and more people got into that instead.
It's not a game to be compared with the likes of 40k/AoS/HH/TOW because it's not the same league.

So, if people would buy more, like with blood bowl, they for sure would be replaced.....

Simply means GW expect sales for Grail Knights on the level of Lord of the Rings models and because a player only ever buy 2 boxes, sales are never high enough compared to 40k were a single player buys multiple of the same, to justify a plastic release

For the very same reasons Lord of the Rings is not getting their models replaced, TOW will get them replaced for sure

I still don't see that coming, there will rather be a new faction than an old one redone

I got the box of five metal Grail knights, and four singles many years back

I'm unlikely to ever want more than one unit of them, and if I need one or two more, well a plastic knight with the same blue/white paint job will do, especially in the middle of a unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

leopard wrote:
could be not so much it doesn't sell as well as the game structure means it will never sell as well

It's 100% this. Back when our group got into MESBG with its rebrand from LotR and Hobbit, most of us bought the basic "troop" box and a hero or two and that was it. There were a few people who went all in and got a legion of Uruk Hai but most of us were content with a Warband or two.
Then GW released the Battlecompanies ruleset which incentivised playing with just one Warband and more people got into that instead.
It's not a game to be compared with the likes of 40k/AoS/HH/TOW because it's not the same league.

yes, people locally are starting to get into middle earth partly for the rules but partly because the cost to start is so low

a single box of 20-24 infantry, mark two as captains and you are away, add cavalry the same with a captain and done - the Battlehost sets are even better

Battle Companies is good.. but invariably requires a curiously larger range of models to actually play it, e.g. many of the expansion bits you can roll up are oddballs. its great fun though

indeed its seemingly the only reasonably mainstream GW game where the rules have not been written to force ever more purchases, for middle earth you expand by collecting more factions and being able to run the excellent narrative stuff

pity they have not brought that model really to 40k and AoS as it works very well, smaller games, but much more varied ones with a bit less "pay to win" stuff but probably similar overall spend

 kodos wrote:
So, if people would buy more, like with blood bowl, they for sure would be replaced.....

Simply means GW expect sales for Grail Knights on the level of Lord of the Rings models and because a player only ever buy 2 boxes, sales are never high enough compared to 40k were a single player buys multiple of the same, to justify a plastic release

For the very same reasons Lord of the Rings is not getting their models replaced, TOW will get them replaced for sure

If TOW sells well then replacement models will come. That's the SOP for GW.
Comparing TOW to MESBG just because they both have metal models is stupid because they're entirely different games with wildly different selling points. MESBG allows people to re-enact the films and books while TOW is still very much a "Your Dudes" setting. MESBG is a skirmish game where the buy-in is around £55 while TOW is a mass-battle game where the buy-in is much higher.
Overall sales of a range are what pushes new kits.

I still don't see that coming, there will rather be a new faction than an old one redone

GW will do both. The first wave for both Bretonnia and Tomb Kings has seen remakes of older models and new models alongside the older kits. Redoing the whole Bretonnia and TK lines immediately would have been a monumentally stupid decision because GW doesn't know how well the game will sell. Once sales reports have come back and the initial armies have been released, new replacement kits will show up.

I think one of them being 100% owned and control by GW IP and the other being a licensed game has as much to do with it if not more than actual sales.

MESBG being in limbo is most likely the same reason. The overlapping venn diagram of resources/people put on TOW and the resources/people normally on MESBG have most likely been a perfect circle for the last year.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/bretonnia-kit-focus-knights-of-the-realm-walk-so-their-lord-can-fly/

Pegasus Lord sprue:

Battle Standard Bearer on Pegasus sprue:

Shared Royal Pegasus sprue:


Knights of the Realm on Foot sprues:


Breakdown Article
So, the BSB on Pegasus is its own kit. Shame they won't just sell you the Pegasus in packs of 3 and let you make your own Pegasus Knights!

 Kanluwen wrote:

So, the BSB on Pegasus is its own kit. Shame they won't just sell you the Pegasus in packs of 3 and let you make your own Pegasus Knights!

Not yet! They want you to buy a bunch of the old Pegasus before releasing new ones so you want to replace the old and outdated.

Expected the price to be for the 10 Knights so 20 in the box is a nice surprise.

It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

They said Peasant Bowmen and other future regiments.

I've repeated this several times. Here's the exact quote:

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.