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 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It would be great if it does happen but it just doesn't overly sound likely when based on articles they've broadly got things planned out quite for a while. If they hadn't outright said they are not part of this or their plans for the game and will not be receiving support beyond the basic rules, then potentially I could see it, but unless there are things i've completely forgot I don't think they usually go out of there way to say no to doing something that they then later do.

They don't sound anything different to what they sounded about Epic during 2018...

Just what have they outright denied before only to then actually do a short while later? I really can't think of any examples.

Epic 2018. They "had no plans for it".

Also space hulk. Week before they announced it coming back Jervis flat out said they had no plans of reprinting it...

Week. You think they decided in space of 7 days that "hey let's reprint space hulk and then announce it in few days!"

 Shakalooloo wrote:

"Rob: There’s one Bretonnian model coming out that had been designed decades ago and never released. It was incredible to be able to find things like this buried at the back of a cupboard."
Wonder what that could be? A lost Perry masterpiece?

I guess the one Hastings had seen back in the say that let him assume Bretonnia will be a starter set faction for 9th Edition
(as he claimed he had seen the pre-release models for a future Bretonnia release that never came because AoS happened)

 Ahtman wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
You've seriously never been in a professional environment where the scope expands due to success and profit?

For the record, I am in the camp that if we ever see the legacy armies it won't be for years, but if The Old World is successful enough to warrant investment there will come a time where bringing in the legacy (or kislev/cathay) is the juiciest fruit still on the tree, and I doubt shareholders will demand they ignore it because of an article written in early 2024.

Have you seriously never been in a professional environment where something failed to meet expectations? Or just barely did? Everything you're predicting is pure speculation on a dream of a success that hasn't happened yet.

Here's the difference:

Grail seeker is saying there's possibility. If game succeeds then GW might decide.

chaox00omega(or whatever name was) is saying NO MATTER HOW WELL TOW SELLS THOSE ARMIES WON'T COME BACK!

Aka even if TOW somehow becomes best selling game ever in the history of miniature games those armies will in 50 years still not be here...

Grail seeker isn't saying they are 100% coming back.

Just that there's possibility. Like there was chance epic comes despite GW saying no plans to do so.

Sounds to me like outside the UK large Fantasy communities are unlikely to switch back to GW then and just stick to T9A, WAP, CE or whatever. Dropping half the factions will make this DOA for half of everyone but the hardcore GW stans.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Two of those already have definitive answers. And the books never sell out, only the boxes.

While GW continues to print books they will continue to print those boxes. They aren't one and done print runs.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It would be great if it does happen but it just doesn't overly sound likely when based on articles they've broadly got things planned out quite for a while. If they hadn't outright said they are not part of this or their plans for the game and will not be receiving support beyond the basic rules, then potentially I could see it, but unless there are things i've completely forgot I don't think they usually go out of there way to say no to doing something that they then later do.

They don't sound anything different to what they sounded about Epic during 2018...

Just what have they outright denied before only to then actually do a short while later? I really can't think of any examples.

Epic 2018. They "had no plans for it".

Also space hulk. Week before they announced it coming back Jervis flat out said they had no plans of reprinting it...

Week. You think they decided in space of 7 days that "hey let's reprint space hulk and then announce it in few days!"

There's a difference between a "We have no plans for it at this time" and then years later they've got different plans, and them saying outright "They're not part of this and they're not going to be and they won't be showing up even as things progress" multiple times. The latter is much more of a concrete denial than just "Not at the moment".

That space hulk situation does sound odd but a single person getting something wrong isn't really on the same level as multiple people in multiple articles discussing the game they've made saying it.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Two of those already have definitive answers. And the books never sell out, only the boxes.

While GW continues to print books they will continue to print those boxes. They aren't one and done print runs.

Missed the point. The boxes may go out of stock, but i've never seen seperate rulebooks sell out an allocation. Not for 40k or any system.

 Shakalooloo wrote:


The quote I find intriguing is

"Rob: There’s one Bretonnian model coming out that had been designed decades ago and never released. It was incredible to be able to find things like this buried at the back of a cupboard."

Wonder what that could be? A lost Perry masterpiece?

Maybe that's what the Sergeant At Arms was?

Really wish they'd addressed some of the new profiles at some point. Tomb Guard Chariots for example!

I'm pretty unhappy with The Old World not having all the Old Warhammer factions in it. Maybe in the future they will get around to expanding the scope.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sounds to me like outside the UK large Fantasy communities are unlikely to switch back to GW then and just stick to T9A, WAP, CE or whatever. Dropping half the factions will make this DOA for half of everyone but the hardcore GW stans.

I'd be genuinely surprised if that's the case and have heard nothing about that in the US groups I'm part of. But I suppose it's possible.

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
It is a real shame when one of, if not the, largest 3rd party retailers in the country is effectively out of the game as a result of GW's continuing stock issues.

I might think differently if I had GW's internal numbers, but in isolation I'm willing to believe that even GW has doubts as to their ability to sell ancient sculpts at ludicrous prices, and set their stock levels accordingly.

They're generally good at getting people hyped up, but they seem too terrified of the next Dreadfleet to take the occasional risk, even if they sabotage their own launch like that.

Not that they have much reason to worry about disgruntled customers. They still can't produce stuff fast enough at the moment and they'll keep trickling Old World restocks out for as long as they sell through stock. Customer satisfaction isn't a big deal when the customers are hooked on the product.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

If you want to come on this long-term journey with us, the factions in the Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes books are the ones to collect and play – and we want to be pretty clear about that

Sounds to me like the 9 are the 9 and new factions like Kislev are an equally deluded prospect as Dark Elves or Lizardmen. Reaffirming that those old design diaries were complete horsegak from day 1.

We get this kind of message because Kislev and Cathay have no preview or release announcement. GW won't acknowledge that they exist as part of the supported forces until they make such an announcement, which so far they haven't. We can't say anything about the status of these armies beyond that.

Klickor wrote:
If there were no chance at all for the legacy armies to be expanded on why even put resources into making the PDFs to begin with. Since they have already done that and there is a ton of lore and models, and some form of basic rules converted to this new edition, there wouldn't be much work at all for them to fully implement them later into the game. Like 95% of it is already done.

They might not put them into the official story line or put up any real marketing for them and yet add them in "fully". As in supported at events and with updates to the rules and maybe even new models. There is a lot of leeway in their statement.

These factions will probably feature in some of the new lore and novels anyway, as filler for the background, even if they won't have any major part of the ongoing stories. They would just be like non marines and non chaos factions in 40k. Part of the background but without any agency while GW favors the main protagonists.

They did it to generate goodwill amd suck people in. Some folks will surely rage out like it's the end times all over, byt many will say "OK, I'm happy to play with my VC using pdf rules". 3 years later, playing with the same army, no updates, while all their friends are playing with new hotness it starts to become "yknow, those Kislev guys look really good, maybe I'll start a second army".

Your own argument also works against you. As you said "95% of the work is done", all the models are in active production, all they need is different packaging and they are making money right off the bat. No need to bring back ancient metal minis or go dumpster duving fir lost minis. Yet they arent trying to sell you thise factions for TOW... weird that they aren't doing that, don't you think?

They were also pretty clear that those factions *won't* be in the narrative. They were very directly explicit about that point. Why you would argue that they will be when they directly stated they won't is baffling.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Two of those already have definitive answers. And the books never sell out, only the boxes.

While GW continues to print books they will continue to print those boxes. They aren't one and done print runs.

Missed the point. The boxes may go out of stock, but i've never seen seperate rulebooks sell out an allocation. Not for 40k or any system.

Those don't have unlimited print run either...

Buy too many and they will run out of stock.

Klickor wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Klickor wrote:
If there were no chance at all for the legacy armies to be expanded on why even put resources into making the PDFs to begin with.

So that people who still have those minis can play, somewhat. In no way does tossing a beggar a loaf of bread guarantee that they will get a steak dinner later that night.

Giving them hope when there is 0 chance to get support later might backfire though. But I do think they would want to expand the scope if the game is successful and this is an easy way to do it in a couple of years without having constant churn for the sake of churn with the core armies or making up new editions. Adding in Dark Elves, or any other legacy faction, could expand the lifetime of the old world for another couple of months with little manpower after all the currently planned armies and supplements have been released.

The point is they aren't giving them hope. They've been fairly clear for a year or so now that you shouldn't have hope and that they are getting rules literally "for old times sake" but wouldnt be getting anything further. The only reason this keeps coming up is because GWs customers apparently can't read or are megadosing on a copium-hopium cocktail. GW is literally trying to kill the hope and people like you are going "yeah, but maybe...". It's pure Denial. Take what they are telling you at face value and move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

If you want to come on this long-term journey with us, the factions in the Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes books are the ones to collect and play – and we want to be pretty clear about that

Sounds to me like the 9 are the 9 and new factions like Kislev are an equally deluded prospect as Dark Elves or Lizardmen. Reaffirming that those old design diaries were complete horsegak from day 1.

They put kislev faction sigils on the map and literally talked about kislev featuring in events and you're really going to argue that they're not coming?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It would be great if it does happen but it just doesn't overly sound likely when based on articles they've broadly got things planned out quite for a while. If they hadn't outright said they are not part of this or their plans for the game and will not be receiving support beyond the basic rules, then potentially I could see it, but unless there are things i've completely forgot I don't think they usually go out of there way to say no to doing something that they then later do.

They don't sound anything different to what they sounded about Epic during 2018...

Just what have they outright denied before only to then actually do a short while later? I really can't think of any examples.

Epic 2018. They "had no plans for it".

Also space hulk. Week before they announced it coming back Jervis flat out said they had no plans of reprinting it...

Week. You think they decided in space of 7 days that "hey let's reprint space hulk and then announce it in few days!"

I have no recollection of any of these claims.

Citation needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Two of those already have definitive answers. And the books never sell out, only the boxes.

While GW continues to print books they will continue to print those boxes. They aren't one and done print runs.

Missed the point. The boxes may go out of stock, but i've never seen seperate rulebooks sell out an allocation. Not for 40k or any system.

Siege of Cthonia for Horus Heresy would beg to differ. Not sure they've actually restocked it yet since selling out on release, it took me almost 5 months to track down a copy that wasn't being sold at a markup on ebay.

I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

chaos0xomega wrote:


They were also pretty clear that those factions *won't* be in the narrative. They were very directly explicit about that point. Why you would argue that they will be when they directly stated they won't is baffling.

So they will never be mentioned anywhere ever in the background? So Chaos Demons don't exist at all in the old world now? Lizardmen and Dark Elves in the new world are just completely wiped from the map? No skaven or ogres that will ever come into contact with any of the main factions? I don't understand why you think that is the case.

Not being part about the ongoing narrative doesn't mean that they are completely gone. They can still have 0 novels or supplements that have any of these factions at the forefront without them being erased from the background. There are no plans for them having a significant role in the near future but that is hardly a large obstacle to give them a full release in a couple of years if the game is popular and that might come with or without a shift in the focus of the narrative.

The game might not even be called "The Old World" at that point but just WFB 10th edition or with the second edition of "The Old World" the name will change meaning from pointing to the specific area that is called "the old world" to mean the world that existed before the end times and incorporate anything that was in WFB. Not like any of GWs games have ever changed before in what scope they have so why would it be 100% true for all eternity for this one?

chaos0xomega wrote:

The point is they aren't giving them hope. They've been fairly clear for a year or so now that you shouldn't have hope and that they are getting rules literally "for old times sake" but wouldnt be getting anything further. The only reason this keeps coming up is because GWs customers apparently can't read or are megadosing on a copium-hopium cocktail. GW is literally trying to kill the hope and people like you are going "yeah, but maybe...". It's pure Denial. Take what they are telling you at face value and move on.

Just like 2018 GW said they had zero plans to make epic.

And even before that people like you said no chance in hell AT comes back when pics of new warlord titan surfaced.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cyel wrote:
I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

Ah yes. Game is obviously so much better when there's zero dice roll and everything seen at list creation time. Tournament players wet dream.

All of what you said was in FB before. Gee shock horror having to roll to hit. Guess you would like "unit A does automatically Y damage" system.

Why bother putting models on table then? You can play 100000 games in hour. Just throw in army lists and you see who wins.

Klickor wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:


They were also pretty clear that those factions *won't* be in the narrative. They were very directly explicit about that point. Why you would argue that they will be when they directly stated they won't is baffling.

So they will never be mentioned anywhere ever in the background? So Chaos Demons don't exist at all in the old world now? Lizardmen and Dark Elves in the new world are just completely wiped from the map? No skaven or ogres that will ever come into contact with any of the main factions? I don't understand why you think that is the case.

Not being part about the ongoing narrative doesn't mean that they are completely gone. They can still have 0 novels or supplements that have any of these factions at the forefront without them being erased from the background. There are no plans for them having a significant role in the near future but that is hardly a large obstacle to give them a full release in a couple of years if the game is popular and that might come with or without a shift in the focus of the narrative.

The game might not even be called "The Old World" at that point but just WFB 10th edition or with the second edition of "The Old World" the name will change meaning from pointing to the specific area that is called "the old world" to mean the world that existed before the end times and incorporate anything that was in WFB. Not like any of GWs games have ever changed before in what scope they have so why would it be 100% true for all eternity for this one?

There’s pretty much no reason for Lizardmen or Dark Elves to appear ’on camera’ if they’re focusing on the Old World continent and not going to the new world. DE might get a mention as to their impact on HE if they ever actually get to the GWAC, but otherwise there’s really no reason for them to appear.
Ditto Skaven who are fighting their civil war. Might get some oblique references wrt the Blighted Marshes, but again no reason to be on camera.

Ogres as a racial grouping could well show up as mercenaries and the like, or within the Empire (like in 4th), but the Ogre Kingdoms themselves are miles away from where the narrative is set and again has no real reason to show up, no one relevant borders them until Cathay shows up.


Sure in a decade’s time if TOW is a massive success GW might revisit their decision on the scope, but we’re talking very long term. It’s taken them 5 years to build what they have now and they’ve got quite a bit to get through in their existing plans. It’d be years before they’re at a point to make a decision about expanding the scope and years again before they’ve developed anything from that decision to release.

tneva82 wrote:

Cyel wrote:
I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

Ah yes. Game is obviously so much better when there's zero dice roll and everything seen at list creation time. Tournament players wet dream.

All of what you said was in FB before. Gee shock horror having to roll to hit. Guess you would like "unit A does automatically Y damage" system.

Why bother putting models on table then? You can play 100000 games in hour. Just throw in army lists and you see who wins.

There's an appropriate quote to describe your response there, tneva - perhaps you're familiar with it (minus the corrected typo)?

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying to pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.

 kodos wrote:

MaxT wrote:
GW doesn’t get to decide which lists are allowed in any tournie other than their own anyway, the community will decide that.

and if you want to run an official tournament, you go by GWs rules
ask how many 40k tournaments allow units from legends pdf to be used

Not for specialist games. Go look at the Blood Bowl community, nearly every tournie other than ones at Warhammer World allow Slann teams, and those aren't GW legal.

I never said they would have any large part in the narrative. But they will of course be mentioned in the background. Like some character without much knowledge of the world meets a merchant or mercenary who tells them a tale or experience relating to any of those other races in passing. That was what I meant. The legacy armies will be mentioned like that and if the discussion is between more powerful people who know more they will perhaps say a bit more detailed things like "We had some diplomacy or trade with the high elves but it got disrupted by dark elf raiders from Naggarond" (or whatever their place is called) and not just vague myths or legends.

That is being in the lore but not the focus. Then in 5+ years they will perhaps move from barely being mentioned to the next supplement being about the Skaven civil war or an erupting war between the dark elves and the high elves, either one of those conflicts could easily spill over and affect the other factions and suddenly Skaven or Dark Elves get a full release.

Klickor wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:


They were also pretty clear that those factions *won't* be in the narrative. They were very directly explicit about that point. Why you would argue that they will be when they directly stated they won't is baffling.

So they will never be mentioned anywhere ever in the background? So Chaos Demons don't exist at all in the old world now? Lizardmen and Dark Elves in the new world are just completely wiped from the map? No skaven or ogres that will ever come into contact with any of the main factions? I don't understand why you think that is the case.

Not being part about the ongoing narrative doesn't mean that they are completely gone. They can still have 0 novels or supplements that have any of these factions at the forefront without them being erased from the background. There are no plans for them having a significant role in the near future but that is hardly a large obstacle to give them a full release in a couple of years if the game is popular and that might come with or without a shift in the focus of the narrative.

The game might not even be called "The Old World" at that point but just WFB 10th edition or with the second edition of "The Old World" the name will change meaning from pointing to the specific area that is called "the old world" to mean the world that existed before the end times and incorporate anything that was in WFB. Not like any of GWs games have ever changed before in what scope they have so why would it be 100% true for all eternity for this one?

From GW, literally today:

"A few of the factions from the previous Warhammer Fantasy Battle game will not feature in Warhammer: The Old World[/u] – this is in terms of game rules, model ranges, and the ongoing background narrative. [u]"

I'm sure you'll see references to "my grandpa fought in the Vampire wars" or "there were old stories of rats as big as a man living in the sewers of altdorf", but that seems to be the extent of it.

There's also nothing in their statements about "for now" or "near future" or "once the narrative shifts". You're reading that in yourself, over GWs own clear-throated statements that they are not part of the game. GW has been very clear about their plans forward, there will not be a "shift in the narrative" that suddenly introduces these factions, not for many many many years - I would say at least 10 years minimum.

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The point is they aren't giving them hope. They've been fairly clear for a year or so now that you shouldn't have hope and that they are getting rules literally "for old times sake" but wouldnt be getting anything further. The only reason this keeps coming up is because GWs customers apparently can't read or are megadosing on a copium-hopium cocktail. GW is literally trying to kill the hope and people like you are going "yeah, but maybe...". It's pure Denial. Take what they are telling you at face value and move on.

Just like 2018 GW said they had zero plans to make epic.

And even before that people like you said no chance in hell AT comes back when pics of new warlord titan surfaced.

Again, citation needed. I can find nothing from gw saying they were not going to make epic. Prove it or acknowledge you're making it up.

Also, what do you mean "people like you"?

So the Border Kingdoms Bombard is mentioned several times as only being available to dishonoured knights in the Journal - we know they have a few journal specific units so i wonder if this is one of them or there is a list of a few mercenaries in the army books....or its just a Empire cannon by another name.

GW always said that they were making AT and NOT making Epic whenever it came up regarding their AT line. It wasn't until they were marketing the new AN that they started saying that they were making it.


The closest you'd get was the heavy implication that they would or might do Epic if sales were good enough because both AT and AN shared the new 8mm scaling. It was clearly an "on the cards" plan that relied on solid sales and forecasts of sales and such for GW to then invest into.


GW never says what they are doing in advance until they are doing the marketing for it. About the only exception was Old World.

Klickor wrote:
I never said they would have any large part in the narrative. But they will of course be mentioned in the background. Like some character without much knowledge of the world meets a merchant or mercenary who tells them a tale or experience relating to any of those other races in passing. That was what I meant. The legacy armies will be mentioned like that and if the discussion is between more powerful people who know more they will perhaps say a bit more detailed things like "We had some diplomacy or trade with the high elves but it got disrupted by dark elf raiders from Naggarond" (or whatever their place is called) and not just vague myths or legends.

That is being in the lore but not the focus. Then in 5+ years they will perhaps move from barely being mentioned to the next supplement being about the Skaven civil war or an erupting war between the dark elves and the high elves, either one of those conflicts could easily spill over and affect the other factions and suddenly Skaven or Dark Elves get a full release.

I think you’d be looking at a lot more than 5 years (if ever). 5 years will be within the current plans and they will already be working on a lot of things within that timeframe. A revisiting of the scope will push well beyond that.

Plenty to fill time with from just the 9 supported factions.

Cyel wrote:
I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

Its a 45 minute promo video that's heavily edited and they just skip to results where they feel it was repetitive. They're not going to include footage of the players quietly thinking about tactics and expositing plans at each other. They're doing a condensed overview of the game using the two army launch sets, not a strategic analysis.
I've been pretty critical of this whole thing, but there's a point where you've gone past criticism and are just swinging at the air.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So the Border Kingdoms Bombard is mentioned several times as only being available to dishonoured knights in the Journal - we know they have a few journal specific units so i wonder if this is one of them or there is a list of a few mercenaries in the army books....or its just a Empire cannon by another name.

Kitbashed cannon would be my guess, especially after the 'unit filler' article.

I used to play with VC, Lizardmen, Ogres and Dwarf armies.
3 of those armies are now TOW'd (or squatted if you still prefer the phrase).

However GW are going to give me a gakky unplaytested pdf rules for those 3 armies, not support them, but tell me that I need to rebase the lot.
Lol GW, I'll stick with several other rulesets I have and ignore this release.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I used to play with VC, Lizardmen, Ogres and Dwarf armies.
3 of those armies are now TOW'd (or squatted if you still prefer the phrase).

However GW are going to give me a gakky unplaytested pdf rules for those 3 armies, not support them, but tell me that I need to rebase the lot.
Lol GW, I'll stick with several other rulesets I have and ignore this release.

Actually the PDFs might be better quality in some regards.. cue the Militia list for HH which beyond beeing on the weaker side strength wise is one of the if not best written representation of it's faction in HH.


But yeah, this sucks hard.

MaxT wrote:

 kodos wrote:

MaxT wrote:
GW doesn’t get to decide which lists are allowed in any tournie other than their own anyway, the community will decide that.

and if you want to run an official tournament, you go by GWs rules
ask how many 40k tournaments allow units from legends pdf to be used

Not for specialist games. Go look at the Blood Bowl community, nearly every tournie other than ones at Warhammer World allow Slann teams, and those aren't GW legal.

Blood Bowl was its own game before that
and I am pretty sure that those people who still play 6th, 7th or 8th Edition will also ignore the new stuff and keep playing

but we are looking at a new game here and not legacy version re-printed

and the other question is, why should you even play TOW instead of the legacy rules if you are going to use house rules anyway?
would have been much easier to just organise 6th edition tournies instead of waiting for TOW if you are not following GW but make your own thing

It's definitely disappointing that the missing factions are not getting proper rules support. I accept they can't do models etc for everything at once, but really the other armies really should get supported army lists that are tournament legal.

I really hope they reconsider that, it's a big black mark against what I consider to be a very solid release so far otherwise.