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 frankelee wrote:
Yeah seriously. Just because it looks like about 2 months worth of work didn't mean it didn't take 4 years to do.

The work isn't even all done by the same people with the same availability. They very likely had designs sitting for months or even years before getting time allocated from toolmakers or packaging designers, who had to schedule TOW things in between other projects like AOS or HH. The same applies to production planning; there was no way 40k 10E launch injection molding would get scheduled behind Bone Dragons or flying Dukes.

Not to mention a big chunk of the last 4-5 years will have been spent developing products that are still yet to release, like the remaining 7 factions.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

James12345 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There were rumors of a Island of Blood MTO

Skaven is legacy, so I don't see it happening. All of the high elf side is seen in the books though so maybe they are finally getting a separate release

The original sprues were mixed with Skaven, but I think they’re CAD era are they not? Perhaps they’re using the files to make new sprues with just the elves?

Still quite a bit of outlay for the new moulds, but presumably cheaper than whole new sculpts.

If they were to make a battleforce with full 20 man units with command for the IoB Elven infantry I would buy multiple boxes in a heartbeat, no matter how much of a PITA it would be to get enough 20mm bases for them. I've wanted to run 4 blocks of Swordmasters ever since I saw Blind Eltharion's rules, and I know my niece was wanting to start a High Elf army from scratch, and the SOC Seaguard force might just entice her.

Scottywan82 wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
Speaking of high elves, the rule book shows off the plastic swords masters of hoeth, which were exclusive to isle of blood. The lothern sea guard as well, though a few guard were available separately. Hmmm…

The dwarf army photo shows a bunch of Skull Pass minis too. I suspect those sets will get re-released or at least some kind of battleforce with one specific side to it.

Skull Pass and Isle of Blood were both incredible starter sets hampered by both armies occupying the sprue frames. It they'd had the foresight to make them separate on the frames, then they would have had the fundamentals for incredible battalion/army boxes.

No doubt it's been a long process with many authors. Hence why we got a WarCom article about Kislev and Cathay tying in to Total Warhammer before an accountant slammed a DENIED stamp down on their budget, and it became four new models for two factions. And I also would not be surprised that GW makes a very small team of designers do everything and just let them take four or five years because they can't focus on anything. And then production bottlenecks on top.

 Ahtman wrote:
Hasn't even been 24 hours since pre-order and already seen multiple articles on it being a failure or that it is such a resounding success it is going to replace AoS. Crazy.

Idiots gonna idiot and clickbaiters gonna clickbait.

Voss wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

Now? Its happened every edition of every game for the last couple decades.

I don't remember there EVER being that sort of discussion about table sizes when I started playing up til recently. In fact the only times I found table size requirements gamewise in 6th/7th WFB or 3rd-5th 40K it was tied solely to deployment zones, objectives, and "no man's land" spaces.

xttz wrote:

 frankelee wrote:
Yeah seriously. Just because it looks like about 2 months worth of work didn't mean it didn't take 4 years to do.

The work isn't even all done by the same people with the same availability. They very likely had designs sitting for months or even years before getting time allocated from toolmakers or packaging designers, who had to schedule TOW things in between other projects like AOS or HH. The same applies to production planning; there was no way 40k 10E launch injection molding would get scheduled behind Bone Dragons or flying Dukes.

Not to mention a big chunk of the last 4-5 years will have been spent developing products that are still yet to release, like the remaining 7 factions.

I have a feeling there was some feedback about which edition things were being pulled from which caused some rolling changes until they finally landed on Super 8th, which then led to the info releases in earnest.

Lets also not forget Covid, Global shipping disaster and Cost of Living all reared their heads during the life of this project.


It might well be what GW envisioned at the start of this project is VERY different to what they have now. Perhaps at one time they were going to re-design all the core armies and then BOOM a bunch of delays and cost increases and suddenly those resources are eaten up by other elements of their company.

It's one reason GW rarely lets us know things are in development until they are at the point of starting marketing to build up toward sales. Because so so sooo much can happen over a products development cycle that can change the product from what was pitched at the start.


Even though GW are big they are not without budget limits and their size is spread over many product lines. Each one screaming for more resources.

 frankelee wrote:
No doubt it's been a long process with many authors. Hence why we got a WarCom article about Kislev and Cathay tying in to Total Warhammer before an accountant slammed a DENIED stamp down on their budget, and it became four new models for two factions. And I also would not be surprised that GW makes a very small team of designers do everything and just let them take four or five years because they can't focus on anything. And then production bottlenecks on top.

Cathay was last mentioned in 2022. Over 2 years after the project was announced and you think they still had no idea what the budget was, what they'd actually be doing for the project, or what they had the capacity for and were therefore just spouting whatever in articles because it was somehow still some completely undecided thing?

I really don't know why people think 4 or so years for a project like this, especially with covid during that, is some absurdly long development time for it that means they did nothing for years or it just went terribly. We had rumours of Horus Heresy Epic being playtested back in 2021 even before it was properly announced in 2023. Things like this just take years.

 Overread wrote:
So it might well be a very tactically sound choice to not release the utterly brand, totally new armies into the "retro nostalgia" game first. Instead push out the door a huge bunch of older models and a few updated sculpts for armies for people who have those armies; or had those armies or wanted those armies. Ergo maximise the popularity by feeding that side of the market first and then when Cathay and Norsca come along BOOM they are able to be new popular things in the game that's selling really well.

Now granted Norsca are not technically a new force, but they had a curious history where they kind of jumped in and out of the Empire book as a subfaction and soforth. So the reworking of them, as presented and as in the video game, is basically all new.

I take it you mean Kislev in the above, not Norsca?

What's absurd is the insistence that Cathay and kiskev were canceled or aren't coming, etc. Just because they weren't available on launch.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So it might well be a very tactically sound choice to not release the utterly brand, totally new armies into the "retro nostalgia" game first. Instead push out the door a huge bunch of older models and a few updated sculpts for armies for people who have those armies; or had those armies or wanted those armies. Ergo maximise the popularity by feeding that side of the market first and then when Cathay and Norsca come along BOOM they are able to be new popular things in the game that's selling really well.

Now granted Norsca are not technically a new force, but they had a curious history where they kind of jumped in and out of the Empire book as a subfaction and soforth. So the reworking of them, as presented and as in the video game, is basically all new.

I take it you mean Kislev in the above, not Norsca?

Yeah I do - totally mixed those two names up!

 Just Tony wrote:
I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

Going by what Ash said in his GMG review of the rulebook, the standard table size is 6x4 as it has always been. However the book does contain options on playing with the smaller, more modern game board size (Like 60x44).

Basically it just provides the option as not many people necessarily have a 6x4 board to play on outside a gaming club or game store.

 Just Tony wrote:


If they were to make a battleforce with full 20 man units with command for the IoB Elven infantry I would buy multiple boxes in a heartbeat, no matter how much of a PITA it would be to get enough 20mm bases for them. I've wanted to run 4 blocks of Swordmasters ever since I saw Blind Eltharion's rules, and I know my niece was wanting to start a High Elf army from scratch, and the SOC Seaguard force might just entice her.

Techically there is a good chance we see Bellanaer as a special character once we get to the elves. He accompanied Finubar on his travels to the old world (around the time of this game) and was the master of the white tower. Would be cool to see him unlock a swordmaster list.

I feel the debate on lead times is one that isn't going to be resolved - but I think its reasonable to say that different things are.. different.

GW have limited production capacity - which we know has been a problem for years now (partly due to a massive increase in demand). Making all these kits (and also shipping them round the world etc) is an either-or. See much bleating that they aren't producing enough of just about everything - whether from customers or from FLGS who want to sell to customers.

To a degree that applies to everything - but its not really the same bottleneck. Writing rules is relatively straight forward - especially when, for the most part, these are the same as before. Art and layout of the books etc will take time - but you can hire more artists. Printing them is easier than printing models. Its not something you'd do in 5 minutes - but its also not something that would take 4-5 years.

Welp I spent more than expected after seeing the review of the rules, I got a little excited.

Just on preorder, I dropped $550 on rules, cards, dragon ogres for Beastmen/WoC. So I did my part lol (thinking of that scene from Starship troopers).

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Utterly ridiculous if you really think that, when we've been told it takes 2-3 years just to go from designing miniatures to releasing them normally, that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period, designed and made multiple brand new miniatures, found and retooled old stuff, figured out what the rules would be, and managed to manufacture all this stock within just 12 months to do all that, at best....

And that was all done by one person doing one thing at a time, in sequence.

don't forget how long the extensive play testing and feedback plus resolution of issues and repeating the cycle will have taken...

 xttz wrote:

 frankelee wrote:
Yeah seriously. Just because it looks like about 2 months worth of work didn't mean it didn't take 4 years to do.

The work isn't even all done by the same people with the same availability. They very likely had designs sitting for months or even years before getting time allocated from toolmakers or packaging designers, who had to schedule TOW things in between other projects like AOS or HH. The same applies to production planning; there was no way 40k 10E launch injection molding would get scheduled behind Bone Dragons or flying Dukes.

Not to mention a big chunk of the last 4-5 years will have been spent developing products that are still yet to release, like the remaining 7 factions.

You make it sound like GW is one of those TV shop advertisement women who just fumbles everything and its so complicated to carry two dishes from counter to kitchen table.

This was a low effort army book release.

I'm happy we have the old world. But this has not been worked on for 4 years. More like 2 months. Thays the time they made gorkamorka from skratch in, I believe. In 1997. With far fewer tools and digital aids. This is just a reprint more or less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
What's absurd is the insistence that Cathay and kiskev were canceled or aren't coming, etc. Just because they weren't available on launch.

So maybe a 2028 release for those, if so? Being serious here.

It never ceases to amaze how many game designers we have here on Dakka!

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Utterly ridiculous if you really think that, when we've been told it takes 2-3 years just to go from designing miniatures to releasing them normally, that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period, designed and made multiple brand new miniatures, found and retooled old stuff, figured out what the rules would be, and managed to manufacture all this stock within just 12 months to do all that, at best....

And that was all done by one person doing one thing at a time, in sequence.

Oh right, because having multiple people working on it means that they could do things out of sequence and just go straight to getting to to work on manufacturing the miniatures that they hadn't designed yet, without having to wait for the toolings needed to actually make those miniatures that they'd have needed those non-existent designs to actually do, and just skip the whole idea of first having established just what the setting is and what they need to make which designing, tooling and manufacturing would have depended on doing in the first place...

Yeah, 12 months seems reasonable when they can just magic things up out of nowhere and don't have to take into account reality.

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

Reliance on official GW and event rules for every little thing about playing with your dudes has killed any creativity or problem-solving amongst a large portion of the general player base. It's a far cry from looking at old GW publications that open with statements like 'these rules are a framework, if you don't like something or want to try something different, go nuts.' I'll be figuring out how to use content from The General's Compendium in my TOW hobbying, it's easily my new favorite GW book after recently discovering it.

The internet, fb groups and social media has made playing strangers more common. The reach of my games early 2000s was my friends and the odd tournament. Have to be honest it felt like a chore to meet a new fellow nerd and listen to him rattle off all his 'brilliant house rules'. Half of which were not fixing half the problems they were creating.

Having strict and clear rules pregame reduces endless feelbad arguments at the table with strangers, mostlynin situ where both wants to jockey for the immediate reward and where the more socially normal player usually ends up bending over for the more socially inept (removed - no, just no.), setting awful precedents.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Utterly ridiculous if you really think that, when we've been told it takes 2-3 years just to go from designing miniatures to releasing them normally, that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period, designed and made multiple brand new miniatures, found and retooled old stuff, figured out what the rules would be, and managed to manufacture all this stock within just 12 months to do all that, at best....

And that was all done by one person doing one thing at a time, in sequence.

Oh right, because having multiple people working on it means that they could do things out of sequence and just go straight to getting to to work on manufacturing the miniatures that they hadn't designed yet,

These Tomb Kings were designed in 1999 or close to it. The Old World has had one heck of a development time.

 triplegrim wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
What's absurd is the insistence that Cathay and kiskev were canceled or aren't coming, etc. Just because they weren't available on launch.

So maybe a 2028 release for those, if so? Being serious here.

I expect Kislev within a year, maybe 18 months on the longer end.

So, the big question that matters a lot only to me, probably, is this: Are there rules for siege in the book?

 triplegrim wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

Reliance on official GW and event rules for every little thing about playing with your dudes has killed any creativity or problem-solving amongst a large portion of the general player base. It's a far cry from looking at old GW publications that open with statements like 'these rules are a framework, if you don't like something or want to try something different, go nuts.' I'll be figuring out how to use content from The General's Compendium in my TOW hobbying, it's easily my new favorite GW book after recently discovering it.

The internet, fb groups and social media has made playing strangers more common. The reach of my games early 2000s was my friends and the odd tournament. Have to be honest it felt like a chore to meet a new fellow nerd and listen to him rattle off all his 'brilliant house rules'. Half of which were not fixing half the problems they were creating.

Having strict and clear rules pregame reduces endless feelbad arguments at the table with strangers, mostlynin situ where both wants to jockey for the immediate reward and where the more socially normal player usually ends up bending over for the more socially inept (removed), setting awful precedents.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Utterly ridiculous if you really think that, when we've been told it takes 2-3 years just to go from designing miniatures to releasing them normally, that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period, designed and made multiple brand new miniatures, found and retooled old stuff, figured out what the rules would be, and managed to manufacture all this stock within just 12 months to do all that, at best....

And that was all done by one person doing one thing at a time, in sequence.

Oh right, because having multiple people working on it means that they could do things out of sequence and just go straight to getting to to work on manufacturing the miniatures that they hadn't designed yet,

These Tomb Kings were designed in 1999 or close to it. The Old World has had one heck of a development time.

The old stuff was. But the new Tomb Kings miniatures that they needed ready to be released alongside those were not designed in 1999.

As expected, I asked GW if they had any idea of the release for other factions, and got the standard "When we have info we'll post it to warcom!" marketing BS answer.

So who knows when people not interested in TK or Bretonnia but don't have existing WHFB armies laying around will get anything.

3D printed stuff looking better and better, especially when you factor in that most of the models are 15+ years old, some even 20+ (TK came out the end of 2002) and the skeleton horses are the same garbage from fething 1993 (proven by looking at the picture of the sprue, it says (C) 1993 on it) so those are over 30 years old

What did you seriously expect them to say?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I expect Kislev within a year, maybe 18 months on the longer end.

this we should now rather soon
would mean we see every 2-3 months a new release with journal+models for the remaining core factions

depending what happens this and next month, if the 2nd wave is going to pre-order next week or not and if the next release is again 2 factions happening sooner than later, it might be possible

yet adding that the designers said they are going to release Kislev when they reach Praag and now have said that this event is rather far in future

Wayniac wrote:
As expected, I asked GW if they had any idea of the release for other factions, and got the standard "When we have info we'll post it to warcom!" marketing BS answer.

So who knows when people not interested in TK or Bretonnia but don't have existing WHFB armies laying around will get anything.

3D printed stuff looking better and better, especially when you factor in that most of the models are 15+ years old, some even 20+ (TK came out the end of 2002) and the skeleton horses are the same garbage from fething 1993 (proven by looking at the picture of the sprue, it says (C) 1993 on it) so those are over 30 years old

Those horses are even older than that. They were on a different sprue in 1991, maybe even older.

Snotlings are included in books and if they have rustled up the full mixture of snotlings that were only discontinued a few years ago, some are even older yet again.

That said, I like the old minis.

 kodos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I expect Kislev within a year, maybe 18 months on the longer end.

this we should now rather soon
would mean we see every 2-3 months a new release with journal+models for the remaining core factions

depending what happens this and next month, if the 2nd wave is going to pre-order next week or not and if the next release is again 2 factions happening sooner than later, it might be possible

yet adding that the designers said they are going to release Kislev when they reach Praag and now have said that this event is rather far in future

Necromunda releases quarterly, so I’d anticipate at least that. Maybe faster initially since it got pushed back 3 mths by the Li issue.

My prediction is that we’ll get all the initial AJs in this BP sandbox, then probably Kislev since they have factions in the BP sandbox, possibly followed by a campaign focus in Kislev itself or maybe the northern Empire as well.

After than a new sandbox focussing on Cathay, probably the Time of Darkness and Disharmony leading up to the Monkey King’s conquest since that’s the situation described for Cathay in the Rulebook.

Then probably a new mini setting, perhaps the Affair of the False Grail? Or some Empire focussed squabble?

When are the next events with GW previews? Adepticon is end of March - anything before that?

 Darnok wrote:
When are the next events with GW previews? Adepticon is end of March - anything before that?

LVO is in two weeks and usually has a Warhammer preview