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 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

(i know this is a bit of a necropost but stick with me)

Man, if they go with a Titanicus pricing structure, it's gonna have a hard time outside the UK. To use the Knights and the US as an example, those cerastus knights are 22GBP, which is roughly 27$. GW charges 35$, decidedly not pocket money. Questoris are 27GBP+33$, they charge 45$, the other cerastus are 45GBP=56$, charges 75$. Etc. Etc.

They're gonna have to be absolutely killer value per-box if they want to have it succeed with that pricing structure. You can see this with the success, or rather, lack thereof of games like Aeronautica and to a lesser extent Titanicus. That 30GBP=37$ box of Thunderbolt Fighters? 50 Fething bucks here. They'll need to be dropping entire companies in a box to make epic work with their current non-UK pricing structure.

That's almost guaranteed not to happen.

RazorEdge wrote:

 schoon wrote:
I suppose it could be AT 2.0.

The game is due for another edition.

I doubt; where is the 2nd Edition for Necromunda. If they plan a 2nd Edition for AT, they would had it already released in 2021.

Ash Wastes was released in 2022.
A new edition doesn’t need to be a complete redo, it can be a large expansion set.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:


Man, if they go with a Titanicus pricing structure, it's gonna have a hard time outside the UK. To use the Knights and the US as an example, those cerastus knights are 22GBP, which is roughly 27$. GW charges 35$, decidedly not pocket money. Questoris are 27GBP+33$, they charge 45$, the other cerastus are 45GBP=56$, charges 75$. Etc. Etc.

They're gonna have to be absolutely killer value per-box if they want to have it succeed with that pricing structure. You can see this with the success, or rather, lack thereof of games like Aeronautica and to a lesser extent Titanicus. That 30GBP=37$ box of Thunderbolt Fighters? 50 Fething bucks here. They'll need to be dropping entire companies in a box to make epic work with their current non-UK pricing structure.

Knights weren't really the focus of AT, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare their pricing to the expected core units in Epic. That said, Knights still got a one-off xmas box with a decent discount.

Thanks to a few factors AT has been really affordable in comparison to other GW games, though that affordability has been mostly focused on the titan models. There's been several points in time where you could put together a full sized maniple for less than you'd need to spend on a 500-1000pt 40k army. I'm confident that will continue for the 'core' Epic units like troops and tanks. Due to the HH setting any starter box will have all of the models usable by one person.

With Knights having more of a role to play against tanks & infantry we may well see them repackaged into better value 'knight lance' boxes for Epic, like how HH now sells two infantry squads together. I do think that Epic aircraft will probably see pricing on par with current AT knights though.

twentypence wrote:
Ash Wastes was released in 2022.
A new edition doesn’t need to be a complete redo, it can be a large expansion set.

Thats then an expansion, not a new Edition. A new Edition of a GW-Game comes with a complete Ruleset overhaul and a new Rulebook.

Ash Wastes is just an Expansion, not a new Edition.

twentypence wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:

 schoon wrote:
I suppose it could be AT 2.0.

The game is due for another edition.

I doubt; where is the 2nd Edition for Necromunda. If they plan a 2nd Edition for AT, they would had it already released in 2021.

Ash Wastes was released in 2022.
A new edition doesn’t need to be a complete redo, it can be a large expansion set.

Of course. And it's entirely possible that the big takeaway from the new, molded base is that new, molded bases are coming to AT.

It's a little frustrating as an AT fan to see people more or less rooting for the game to die so that they can have a limited Epic game. But whatever...what will be will be.

Regarding pricing, new Epic minis would need to be reasonably priced if they want to compete with the third party and 3D print options out there already. I don't know that GW really wants to play in that end of the pool. Then again, it all depends on the business plan. Lots of ways that could go.

 xttz wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:


Man, if they go with a Titanicus pricing structure, it's gonna have a hard time outside the UK. To use the Knights and the US as an example, those cerastus knights are 22GBP, which is roughly 27$. GW charges 35$, decidedly not pocket money. Questoris are 27GBP+33$, they charge 45$, the other cerastus are 45GBP=56$, charges 75$. Etc. Etc.

They're gonna have to be absolutely killer value per-box if they want to have it succeed with that pricing structure. You can see this with the success, or rather, lack thereof of games like Aeronautica and to a lesser extent Titanicus. That 30GBP=37$ box of Thunderbolt Fighters? 50 Fething bucks here. They'll need to be dropping entire companies in a box to make epic work with their current non-UK pricing structure.

Knights weren't really the focus of AT, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare their pricing to the expected core units in Epic. That said, Knights still got a one-off xmas box with a decent discount.

Thanks to a few factors AT has been really affordable in comparison to other GW games, though that affordability has been mostly focused on the titan models. There's been several points in time where you could put together a full sized maniple for less than you'd need to spend on a 500-1000pt 40k army. I'm confident that will continue for the 'core' Epic units like troops and tanks. Due to the HH setting any starter box will have all of the models usable by one person.

With Knights having more of a role to play against tanks & infantry we may well see them repackaged into better value 'knight lance' boxes for Epic, like how HH now sells two infantry squads together. I do think that Epic aircraft will probably see pricing on par with current AT knights though.

The Knight box was for the 40k 28mm models, let's be clear. I was also just using knights as an example since Doc was. The Titan's are bracketed the same as the Titanicus Knights are. Warhounds? 45GBP, 75$. At 37.50GBP, the reaver is 60$, etc. etc. It Applies to the core models as well.

There was an all knight Titanticus battleforce box...

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

The Knight box was for the 40k 28mm models, let's be clear.

I was referring to this box:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
The Titan's are bracketed the same as the Titanicus Knights are. Warhounds? 45GBP, 75$. At 37.50GBP, the reaver is 60$, etc. etc. It Applies to the core models as well.

Reavers & Warhounds are available in the AT starter box for £15 less than the cost of buying the kits separately, which also adds knights, rulebook, tokens, etc. All of those kits can also be picked up cheaply on the second-hand market as a result. In addition there have been AT bundle boxes available at various times containing 1500pts+ at a 30-40% discount. The 2021 box was responsible for kickstarting the game at my local club, with around a dozen people picking up a copy.

I expect that Epic would follow a similar approach, with a large launch boxed set followed later on by a cheaper starter set and limited discount bundles to draw new starters.

The other thing I don't understand is why the Dominus-class Knight has not yet appeared in either HH 2.0, nor AT, and wondering if they're holding it back until the launch of Epic - should it be happening.

SamusDrake wrote:
The other thing I don't understand is why the Dominus-class Knight has not yet appeared in either HH 2.0, nor AT, and wondering if they're holding it back until the launch of Epic - should it be happening.

Not the right time period? I don't know the fluff behind that one, but it certainly looks like something the latter-day Mechanicus would cook up.

You might ask when fluff would get in the way of GW selling product, but sometimes it does.

Only thing is that the Dominus had rules for the previous edition of Horus Heresy.

Strange are the ways of GW.

You don't say!

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
I just wish they'd stop with the nonsense and release xenos Titans. Heck, even design some for the races that don't have them already.

I would throw money at them hand over fist if they were to give the KV128 Stormsurge and KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour the Titanicus treatment and fill out the range with a non-Manta walker or two.

Both of those suits are knight scale units. I'd rather see the Orca and Manta show up for AI.

If any xeno faction was going to be added to AT, orks would make sense to be first. They have the Nauts and squiggoths for scale 3-4, stompas and gargantuan squiggoths for scale 4-5, gargants around scale 7-8, Great gargants at 9-10, and Mega Gargants to scale with the Warmaster. Mechanically, they have more but less accurate firepower, and are slower but a lot tankier.

Orks are honestly the only faction whose titans even play the same game as imperials.

I'd say eldar titans and knights also work well. And chaos of course

 Gitdakka wrote:
I'd say eldar titans and knights also work well. And chaos of course

Squats don't have titans per se, but have superheavy superheavies that could match them.

Outside the Heresy era, Tyranids also have extremely powerful biotitans in the fluff, it's just their tabletop representation that got progressively worse over the editions, mostly due to scale limitiations and not getting buoyed up by the general powercreep other things got over time. To be fluff-accurate they'd need to introduce a new creature at the level the Hierophant usually occupies in the fluff, because the o.g. hierophant got demoted to scout-titan powerlevel and the hierodule barely reaches the power of a current-day knight.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gitdakka wrote:
I'd say eldar titans and knights also work well. And chaos of course

Squats don't have titans per se, but have superheavy superheavies that could match them.

Outside the Heresy era, Tyranids also have extremely powerful biotitans in the fluff, it's just their tabletop representation that got progressively worse over the editions, mostly due to scale limitiations and not getting buoyed up by the general powercreep other things got over time. To be fluff-accurate they'd need to introduce a new creature at the level the Hierophant usually occupies in the fluff, because the o.g. hierophant got demoted to scout-titan powerlevel and the hierodule barely reaches the power of a current-day knight.

The other alternative would be to give the Tyranids the advantage of numbers. The other thing the Tyranid Bio-Titans need is more weapon options. In Epic Hive War, they did but not all of these were converted over and some of those would only have been useful against non-Titan scale targets. FW and GW sort of all collapsed it to "Bio-cannons" and just left it at that, which is rather bland even if the Bio-cannons were made competitive.

Way I see it, there are two scenarios with xenos Titans - 1) what those rules would look like in a new Epic game, and 2) what those rules would look like in AT.

For a slew of reasons, a new but classic style Epic game would have to handle Titans in a much more simplified way than what we see in AT. AT is awesome for simulating Titan battles, but doesn't really even handle Knights well, let alone infantry and tanks and planes and a greater number of units on the tabletop. Starting over with streamlined and separate Titan rules for Epic would probably make it easier to add xenos without creating new issues.

On the other hand, AT as it currently exists is built around more detailed Titan management, and the template is obviously Imperial Titans. As people have pointed out, Orks would be an easy add. They'd fit nicely into the system -- reactors, shields, structure points, etc. (and could be fleshed out nicely with maybe 4 kits and some FW accessories/upgrades). Ork Titans seem like a layup for GW and something that should happen.

GW's conceptual approach with Eldar (and Elves I suppose) in games has been to emphasize speed and make them more fragile but harder to hit, etc. And this track record is a little spotty IMO, as in other games the end result tends to be that they're either over- or underpowered. Or just oddly balanced where they become very rock/paper/scissors. It could be done, but would have to be done thoughtfully, and that might start with not making them too different for the sake of being different. Maybe the best approach for xenos like Eldar, Tyranids, etc. would be to identify a single game component -- shields, structure points, reactor, etc -- that behaves differently for that given faction. That way you're not introducing too many new variables to the Imperial-centric system.

 gorgon wrote:
Way I see it, there are two scenarios with xenos Titans - 1) what those rules would look like in a new Epic game, and 2) what those rules would look like in AT.

For a slew of reasons, a new but classic style Epic game would have to handle Titans in a much more simplified way than what we see in AT. AT is awesome for simulating Titan battles, but doesn't really even handle Knights well, let alone infantry and tanks and planes and a greater number of units on the tabletop. Starting over with streamlined and separate Titan rules for Epic would probably make it easier to add xenos without creating new issues.

On the other hand, AT as it currently exists is built around more detailed Titan management, and the template is obviously Imperial Titans. As people have pointed out, Orks would be an easy add. They'd fit nicely into the system -- reactors, shields, structure points, etc. (and could be fleshed out nicely with maybe 4 kits and some FW accessories/upgrades). Ork Titans seem like a layup for GW and something that should happen.

GW's conceptual approach with Eldar (and Elves I suppose) in games has been to emphasize speed and make them more fragile but harder to hit, etc. And this track record is a little spotty IMO, as in other games the end result tends to be that they're either over- or underpowered. Or just oddly balanced where they become very rock/paper/scissors. It could be done, but would have to be done thoughtfully, and that might start with not making them too different for the sake of being different. Maybe the best approach for xenos like Eldar, Tyranids, etc. would be to identify a single game component -- shields, structure points, reactor, etc -- that behaves differently for that given faction. That way you're not introducing too many new variables to the Imperial-centric system.

That was already the case with the old Epic 2nd edition system. Eldar Titans had the holofield mechanic but otherwise operated like Imperial Titans with the turning abilities of Imperial scout Titans. Ork Gargants had the fire damage mechanic and power shields instead of void shields but otherwise were pretty conventional. Tyranids had their Wound and regeneration system. So we see from these examples that xenos Titans usually had one major variation in mechanics but otherwise followed the main rules.

 gorgon wrote:

Regarding pricing, new Epic minis would need to be reasonably priced if they want to compete with the third party and 3D print options out there already. I don't know that GW really wants to play in that end of the pool. Then again, it all depends on the business plan. Lots of ways that could go.

I don't think any credence at all will be given at all to 3rd party proxies or 3D prints. They will judge that a sizeable percentage of collectors will pay three or four times the amount to have a shrink-wrapped box with a GW logo on it, or pay for a set of rules that will most likely be markedly worse than free-to-download community produced versions.

Conversely though I think a lot of proxy producers will do very well from any Epic relaunch, simply because it will bring so many new players to the scale, and if the prices are high there will a fair proportion of hobbyists who will search around (and be told, by people like me! ) that other brands are available.

Some people have more money than time, others have more time than money. I find that is usually the dividing line between 3D printer users and those who aren't 3D printing

semajnollissor wrote:
Some people have more money than time, others have more time than money. I find that is usually the dividing line between 3D printer users and those who aren't 3D printing

3d printing of the at-home variety is a whole new hobby in itself, with a significant buy in both in monetary costs and time and space needs - you need to do research, decide which type and model of printer and printing process to use, need to source it an raw materials, set all of this up, develop your personal workflow for printing, cleaning, waste disposal and so on, and need to avail yourself of printable files and so on. Not everybody wants to develop a completely new hobby to facilitate their original one

 Pacific wrote:


I don't think any credence at all will be given at all to 3rd party proxies or 3D prints. They will judge that a sizeable percentage of collectors will pay three or four times the amount to have a shrink-wrapped box with a GW logo on it, or pay for a set of rules that will most likely be markedly worse than free-to-download community produced versions.

Conversely though I think a lot of proxy producers will do very well from any Epic relaunch, simply because it will bring so many new players to the scale, and if the prices are high there will a fair proportion of hobbyists who will search around (and be told, by people like me! ) that other brands are available.

Sounds like everyone ends up a winner, so I would love to see it happen. If it gets more people playing Epic Armageddon/NetEA I am a happy boy!

The retired (ex GW Painter) Louise Sugden posted her first Painting Video on her new Youtube Channel.

Fun Fact; She shows an old Ork Gargant Box with an big EPIC Logo on the Background.

RazorEdge wrote:
The retired (ex GW Painter) Louise Sugden posted her first Painting Video on her new Youtube Channel.

Fun Fact; She shows an old Ork Gargant Box with an big EPIC Logo on the Background.

Xenos Titans for AT second edition confirmed!

It's a clear message since there were no signs of epic infantry or tanks.

Tsagualsa wrote:

semajnollissor wrote:
Some people have more money than time, others have more time than money. I find that is usually the dividing line between 3D printer users and those who aren't 3D printing

3d printing of the at-home variety is a whole new hobby in itself, with a significant buy in both in monetary costs and time and space needs - you need to do research, decide which type and model of printer and printing process to use, need to source it an raw materials, set all of this up, develop your personal workflow for printing, cleaning, waste disposal and so on, and need to avail yourself of printable files and so on. Not everybody wants to develop a completely new hobby to facilitate their original one

Exactly why I've abstained from 3D printing myself. Two main hobbies (40K stuff & musics) is more than enough time sink already. I can reconsider 3D printing when the tech matures enough to be common in every household, which is still 5-15 years away. In terms of printing tech, the boffins are only just discovering ways to print electronics (based on graphite and water somehow), there's lot of advances still to come on the path towards a genuine "replicator" ala Star Trek

Valrak repeated in his last Stream yesterday that he is confident that GW will preview Epic at Warhammerfest.

RazorEdge wrote:
Valrak repeated in his last Stream yesterday that he is confident that GW will preview Epic at Warhammerfest.

Good to hear

Valrak also got pranked with 4chan rumours about Arks of Omen yesterday and in consequence unlisted the video where he acted all excited about the 'leaks'

He also mentioned that he will make an "Epic Rumor summary" Video.

RazorEdge wrote:
He also mentioned that he will make an "Epic Rumor summary" Video.

... I'm gonna have to do an Epic Rumour Roundup thread soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valrak is live at the moment, and says Epic will come in August/September.