Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Played several more games with my CSM both with daemonic heavy lists as well as more varied armies. I'm really enjoying the diversity of army building and strategy with the different chaos marks. Here's my quick rundown of the units I've been using.

Exalted Champion + Legionnaires
I know Chosen do extremely well but the Legionnaires with the Exalted Champion have been doing great for me. I do mine with Khorne and chainswords and they are great going into MEQ. I don't like running them without a rhino though, the times I have not they have been quickly obliterated by hellblasters with or without Oath.

Cultists
As others said these can definitely punch above their weight class and sticky objective is quite nice, until you draw the mission card that makes all objectives sticky
I use the BSF models so I generally take one of each special and lots of ranged combat along with Tzeentch. In the future I may run a max size squad with a Dark Commune once I build a second.

Accursed Cultists
Wow these guys are great when led by a Dark Commune. I am eager to build another box and run a max size unit. I run mine with Tzeentch solely for skin shift to heal and and replace a model; this was useful enough to tie up an AoK for 3 Rounds (and some lucky Invuls)

Dark Commune
Love these models, looking forward to using them more. They're a solid and very cheap unit and provide great durability and versatility to our chaff.

Master of Possession + Possessed
I ran a 10 man squad and honestly I feel like these are pretty undercosted, they are very, very good and durable and aggressive. I run mine with Slaanesh for the advance and charge.

Warpsmith
I have had nothing but poor outings with mine. I've run a vehicle heavy list several times and he usually gets killed by a deepstriking unit I failed to screen against. The one time I paired him up with some Havocs who would be moving upfield with my Helbrute and Defiler I had forgotten my opponent had a Death Jester, and if you haven't played them yet it's comically easy for the elf-clowns to precision target devastating wounds.

Havocs
I've have bad luck with them so far. With the lascannon setup, the first time they were used I failed to get a single Wound through in 3 Rounds due to some terrible rolls. They redeemed themselves in another game but after destroying their prime targets were simply too slow to matter much in later Rounds. A problem with playing on a board dense with tall terrain. I ran the 4x Reaper Gatlings with Tzeentch and while the boat load of Lethals was nice, they were quashed by anything with a 2+ Save.

Obliterators
Very good, I'd like to get more but I really don't care for the new sculpt on the refresh. As others have mentioned where you place them will matter the most since the 4" move isn't going anywhere fast. I run mine with Tzeentch and love using Skinshift.

Warp Talons
Apparently a distraction carnifex for me. I've run them on foot and deep striking, both min and max size squads and they always become priority target number one. The last time I rapid ingressed them 2 of the 10 survived a shooting onslaught and a kamikaze charge. They then failed to charge the backfield artillery piece which is why I had placed them there, and the mission rule had command reroll as 2CP. I think 100pts is fair for them, I just haven't had any luck with them and all of my opponents tend to focus fire on them, not a bad thing I suppose.

Termies
Love the durability this edition. Depending on the army if I predict I'll have CP I will rapid ingress and go with a Mark of Khorne, otherwise a Tzeentch mark does great as well. I've got 5 of each and I'm tempted to pick up another box of 5, but they are very pricey in points but I would say they're worth it more often than not.

Defiler
I appreciate the points cut but with his giant profile he has a hard time staying alive. Disappointingly our crab tank is only T10 and that hurts a lot. Mine is built as Khorne with the Scourge, it's been great the few times I get into Melee but that rarely happens. I think I'm going to start putting these into Reserves and dumping them on the table later. The Defiler cannon and reaper is my go-to for ranged options since it's usually paired up with a hammer helbrute.

Helbrute
These are fantastic and the points drop was nice. I'm still on the fence about running three of these. I do a Tzeenth dakkabrute and a hammer brute Slaanesh.

Forgefiend
Still great even with the points hike, I'm kicking myself for not buying a second one a while ago. I've switch to Nurgle instead of Chaos Undivided since I go through CP quickly.

Heldrake
Great unit, but like the Warp Talons they tend to get focus fired when you bring them in Hover mode with the biggest guys the enemy has. Like the Defiler I'm going to start using these in reserve and dropping them in later.

Last but not least the humble (traitor) guardsmen. Great unit, although I've never felt the need to bring the Commisar + Ogryn, a bit too expensive methinks
I prefer to run mine with 2x Snipers with Tzeentch since the sniper rifles have gotten a nice glowup this edition, especially the Imperial versions.

Overall, I'm really enjoying Dark Pacts and I may have a hard time switching to a new detachment whenever the codex drops. The versatility with this one is fantastic. How has everyone else been faring in their games?

I agree with all of your sentiments. You should build a max cults with ranged weapons, Tz, and a dark commune. It is loads of fun. I start mine in reserve and then they pop up on flank near an objective and have scored me many many points

So I had two back to back 1250 point games over the weekend. My list in both was as follows:

Master of Possession und
5 x possessed und
5 x warptalons slan
2 x venomcrawlers nur
1 x hellbrute nur
1 x forgefiend und
dark commune tz
20 x ranged cultists tz
2 x obliterators tz

A word on small games. While both games were fun, the game is really meant to be played at 2000 points. Certain units (like the PBC or Abbadon's unit) have an outsize power increase at lower points due to the smaller number of threats. If you play a smaller game, make sure you are on the same page as your opponent as to what should be taken so it doesn't become one sided. (I just watched a Winters battle report on Youtube and they played 1100 points and his opponent brought a large tank that literally could not be killed.)


My first game was against deathguard. He had some PBCs, small terminator squad, some of those small small drone things, and some plague marines with supported characters. I ended up losing this game, (my first loss of tenth actually) basically due to the sticky objective rule for his whole army as he was scoring primary each turn without worrying about keeping units on objectives. That is actually a better rule than people give it credit for, especially now with the extra contagin (he used -1 WS/BS) and definitely in smaller games.

My second game was against CSM and he had Abbadon with terminators, a defiler, a forgefied, havocs with the chain guns, 5 man chosen with a lord and a small cultist squad with a dark commune. I ended up scoring a bunch of points early and took the game by 1 point. It was fun.

Here is my unit breakdown

Master of Possession und with 5 x possessed und- These guys put in work both games, killing a bunch of plague marines and in the second game holding an objective. 5 is not enough in my opinion, just because if they take any casualties it hurts their output. 2 or 3 are not deadly, while 5 -6 are, which shows the importance of the larger squad size in relation to casualties. I also did not make one FNP save in either game!

5 x warptalons slan - I liked these guys before, but at 100 points they are a straight steal. They kind of got screwed in the first game, scoring me some secondary, but then getting clobbered by the indirect from the PBCs (indirect if very potent in small games). The second game they also scored me secondaries, and using the advance and charge killed the cultist unit and took the center objective away from him. These guys are great little early scoring and skirmishing unit. I really want to try ten to see if they can be more of a mainline damage dealer squad, but I only own five. There is no way they stay at 100 points on the next balance pass.

2 x venomcrawlers nur with 1 x hellbrute nur - I bascially used these as a "unit" with the hellbrute giving out the double dark pact and the venomcrawlers making the most of it with their 12 shots. These guys are pretty deadly, especially against 2w marine targets. They wiped the havocs, and the plague marines pretty easily, and did some damage to the defiler, and PBCs. I really like this combination. I don't know if it is better than just bringing more forgefiends however, and the venomcrawlers and hellbrute are not the most tank-y units.

1 x forgefiend und - We all know what this guy does, and with the re-roll strat, [Devastating Wounds] is still really really good, especially against vehicles and terminators. My opponent in the second game used his with mark of nurgle for the [Sustained Hits]. When there is only one I am not sure which is better, but definetly if you bring more than one the remainder should be nurgle.

dark commune tz with 20 x ranged cultists tz- Everyone on here knows how much I love this unit, and it still rocks. In game one it came in and did not do any damage, but held objectives and scored points. His blast did a number on them, but with the 5++ they weathered it better that you would think. In the second game they appeared and killed 4 chosen. Then proceeded to take an objective and held it and basically won me the game.

2 x obliterators tz- as I said before, 2 is not enough, and 4 is to many. They did what they do appearing and shooting stuff, but I could not take advantage of the Tz strat due to the small size. If you are only taking 2 I would recommend nurgle or undivided over Tz.

My opponent's CSM units

Abbadon with the terminators - Again I think everyone knows how good this combination is. I really had nothing to deal with it at 1250 as the forgefiend was dealing with his/defiler. In a bigger game my 10 man possessed could really hurt that unit, but only 5 not so much. Same with the obliterators. I did not get the chance to shoot them with the venomcrawlers, but I don't think that they would have done much to that block.

Defiler - This is the first time I have seen this unit. I thought it was ok, it was pretty tough, and did survive my first round of attacks on 2 wounds, which made it a big problem for me on turn 2 that I had to deal with. Maybe if it had a 2+ save it could be better. Also even with its special move ability, it is such a big model that it can be hard to move it around the board. In fact my opponent failed a charge because it could not fit in a gap and had to go around.

Havocs with Chain cannons- so he had a unit of havocs with Nur with the chain cannons. I was not impressed. The chain cannon only being ap0 means it is not very helpful against anything with a 3+ or 2+ save. It ended up killing a few possessed, but then got smashed by my venomcrawler. I think LC havocs are a better choice, as the chain cannon is only really good at clearing light infantry, and realistically, CSM can do that pretty well with almost all of their units.

hope this was helpful

Some personal thoughts on your thoughts Xeen.

-It's a shame you've had bad luck with Havocs, I have a Nurgle lascannon squad in every game I play and they usually put in work, especially if Abby is around.
-Kudos for using him, but a defiler has no business in any 10th CSM list right now lol
-Using Skinshift on TZ cultists feels like a poor allocation of CP but, to each their own.
-Deep striking Oblits are an excellent rapid ingress candidate, especially with their once a game LoS ability. 2 in deep strike are enough to keep any scurred opponent thinking!

Interesting point about the Possessed. I was considering running 2 squads of a MoP and 5x Possessed but I may want to reconsider since they lack lethality once they dip below a certain point.

I finished painting some cultists but I need to pick up a second Dark Commune before I attach them to my cultist blob. For now they are indispensable on the Accursed Cultists.

I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with Havocs. I think I'm going to place mine on the shelf at their current points cost.

I love the Defiler, one of my favorite models but with T10 and a 3+ Save he's pretty fragile for a 'tank'.

Skinshift is being used on the Accursed Cultists to heal one of the 3 Wound units and then bring back another 3 Wound unit. It's great when the accursed cultists are about to be wiped out and you want to tie up an enemy unit for even longer.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Interesting point about the Possessed. I was considering running 2 squads of a MoP and 5x Possessed but I may want to reconsider since they lack lethality once they dip below a certain point.

I finished painting some cultists but I need to pick up a second Dark Commune before I attach them to my cultist blob. For now they are indispensable on the Accursed Cultists.

I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with Havocs. I think I'm going to place mine on the shelf at their current points cost.

I love the Defiler, one of my favorite models but with T10 and a 3+ Save he's pretty fragile for a 'tank'.

Skinshift is being used on the Accursed Cultists to heal one of the 3 Wound units and then bring back another 3 Wound unit. It's great when the accursed cultists are about to be wiped out and you want to tie up an enemy unit for even longer.

Tzeentch on Accursed definitely makes more sense, but sacrificing all those potential Slaanesh exploding hits feels like wasted potential. Certainly the way to go if you don't envision them seeing combat though! As I see it, Unless you're playing against a melee army, you're always burning through 1 CP for the Nurgle strat, so CP is even more scarce for us. I'm currently running a 16 man accursed unit led by the dark commune. So I want them seeing battle!!!!

On the Havocs perhaps... I think they're appropriately costed, and certainly not an auto-bench. That's the beauty of a CSM list though I guess, plenty of options

My cultists are ranged, so Tz is for [Lethal Hits] for their ranged attacks. In rapid fire range (they usually are) is 32 auto gun shots, 14 heavy stubber, and then two grenade lanchers, which unless engaging something heavy, I usually use blast for more shots. It is just overload with shooting. I do not use skinshift on them ever, that is for the oblits if they survive.

And I did not use the defiler, or havocs as that was my opponents units. I like havocs with a LC, but not the Chain cannon. The defiler was neat, but I think more forgefieds is better.

Hi all,

I've been running a 2K list, for the last week or so, and have had a number of games in. All gone well.

Here's the list:

Abaddon the Despoiler

Dark Commune (Undivided)(x5)

Accursed Cultists (Undivided)(x16)

Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x16)

Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)

Legionnaires (Undivided)(x10)

Obliterators (Undivided)(x4)

Warptalons (Slaanesh)(x5)

Forgefiend (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Bluescribes

Seekers (x5)

Nurglings (x3)

Nurglings (x3)

Its very strongly based off of a CSM list from the 40K Dirtbags channel, but I removed his third AC unit and added Oblits. I think CSM lists need Undivided Oblits because they are a valid counter to Wraithknights, or equivalent.

If you hide Oblits behind a wall you create a 24" radius, where if the WK enters the midfield you can shoot them indirectly, pop the Undivided strat, move out the Nurgle FF, kill the WK then use the Nurgle strat in the opponent's turn and they can't really do anything about either the Oblits/FF.

If they have a second WK and they decide to contest the center or midfield again, you repeat this and expose the Oblits.

The AC meanwhile, have totally swamped the board and with the changes to dev wounds, are much harder to get rid of. Abaddon is giving them a 4++ and is with the Legionnaires.

Nurglings and Bluescribes drop in on the periphery to score and do their thing. Ditto for the Warp Talons.

All credit to the guy from 40K DB: the Seekers are an excellent unit for boxing the opponent into their DZ.

With all this going on, its very hard for the opponent to score anything.

Any thoughts on this?

Best,
Samii.

I have also had great success with my list.

Dark Commune (55pts)
• 2x Blessed Blades
• 2x Commune blade
• 1x Cult Demagogue
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Commune stave
• 1x Iconarch
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Slaanesh
• 1x Mindwitch
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Warp Curse

Abaddon the Despoiler (310pts)
• 1x Drach'nyen
• 1x Talon of Horus
• 1x Warlord

Fabius Bile (85pts)
• 1x Fabius Bile
• 1x Rod of Torment
• 1x The Chirurgeon
• 1x Xyclos needler
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte's tools

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

OTHER DATASHEETS

Accursed Cultists (190pts)
• 1x Slaanesh
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Chaos Terminator Squad (390pts)
• 10x Terminators
• 8x Combi-bolter
• 2x Accursed weapon
• 2x Chainfist
• 2x Reaper autocannon
• 6x Power fist
• 1x Tzeentch

Chosen (220pts)
• 10x Chosen
• 6x Bolt pistol
• 10x Boltgun
• 8x Accursed weapon
• 4x Plasma pistol
• 2x Power fist
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Obliterators (170pts)
• 1x Tzeentch
• 2x Obliterator
• 2x Fleshmetal guns
• 2x Crushing fists

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Nurgle

Chaos Rhino (75pts)
• 1x Armoured tracks
• 1x Combi-bolter
• 1x Havoc launcher
• 1x Chaos Undivided
• 1x Combi-weapon

ALLIED UNITS

Nurglings (35pts)
• 1x Diseased claws and teeth

Abby handing out rerolls to the Termies & Forgefiends (if close) has been excellent (especially on overwatch), the Chosen with Fabius are durable and hit hard, and the dark commune over 16 accursed cultists is a massive tough, regenerative block that is a real thorn in peoples sides.

Hi all,

I changed my list and its been doing even better.

I changed the Nurgle Forgefiend to Nurgle Chaos Land Raider, replaced the Bluescribes with some Nurgle Chaos Bikes, dropped an oblit and changed their allegiance to Tzeentch.

What this has enabled me to do:

1) The Chaos Land Raider I added for a couple of reasons. With the Undivided FF, I have enough anti-elite infantry, so I needed a bit more anti-tank. The Nurgle allegiance gives me output that can work alongside the Undivided FF. It also gives me excellent deployment options. The enemy is wary of Abaddon and the Legionnaires going in it, deploying on the line, Nurgle strat and turn 1 wrecking balling his deployment zone, whether or not I go first. The shooting and melee threat can cut the opponent in half, in turn 1. While you may lose Abaddon's unit, its also possible the opponent won't have enough resources left to deal with him.

Similarly, I can create a killing zone in the midfield that the enemy cannot enter, if I decide to play defensively and deploy the oblits turn 1 out of sight ready to warp rift. The threat of this is enough to make the enemy think twice at the deployment step. The Land Raider helps me to deploy conservatively also, by reducing my footprint if I need to.

2) The oblits can thus deploy defensively, or offensively. With Tzeentch their shooting is able to co-exist with the FF and Land Raider. Rerolls from Abaddon benefit all three. In contrast to the above turn 1 wrecking ball scenario, I found that the oblits can replace Abaddon, in this role. If they deep strike behind a wall, warp rift firepower; then move up and charge something the following turn, you can pop the two defensive strats on them (-1 to hit and -1 ap) and the enemy can't really deal with them. Use the resurrection strat if you lose any. The trick is to expose everything the turn you do this. Don't bother with the Nurgle strat on anything, maybe smoke on the Chaos Land Raider, trust me there will be too many threats for the enemy to deal with, you can overload them.

The trick is progressive overload: turn 1 you trade shots with minimal units, hide stuff and use the Nurgle strat to deny return fire (and/or warp rift firepower) and next turn overload the enemy with threats.

While this is happening, the objectives are getting swamped by Accursed Cultists and the scoring units (bikes, Nurglings, Seekers) are scoring.

3) The bikes are a great harassment unit, as are the Seekers.

No-one wants to deal with them, but they have surprising levels of damage output when ignored and can score points.

Very happy now with this list.

Best,
Samii.

Kangarupe wrote:
I have also had great success with my list.

Dark Commune (55pts)
• 2x Blessed Blades
• 2x Commune blade
• 1x Cult Demagogue
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Commune stave
• 1x Iconarch
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Slaanesh
• 1x Mindwitch
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Warp Curse

Abaddon the Despoiler (310pts)
• 1x Drach'nyen
• 1x Talon of Horus
• 1x Warlord

Fabius Bile (85pts)
• 1x Fabius Bile
• 1x Rod of Torment
• 1x The Chirurgeon
• 1x Xyclos needler
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte's tools

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

OTHER DATASHEETS

Accursed Cultists (190pts)
• 1x Slaanesh
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Chaos Terminator Squad (390pts)
• 10x Terminators
• 8x Combi-bolter
• 2x Accursed weapon
• 2x Chainfist
• 2x Reaper autocannon
• 6x Power fist
• 1x Tzeentch

Chosen (220pts)
• 10x Chosen
• 6x Bolt pistol
• 10x Boltgun
• 8x Accursed weapon
• 4x Plasma pistol
• 2x Power fist
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Obliterators (170pts)
• 1x Tzeentch
• 2x Obliterator
• 2x Fleshmetal guns
• 2x Crushing fists

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Nurgle

Chaos Rhino (75pts)
• 1x Armoured tracks
• 1x Combi-bolter
• 1x Havoc launcher
• 1x Chaos Undivided
• 1x Combi-weapon

ALLIED UNITS

Nurglings (35pts)
• 1x Diseased claws and teeth

Abby handing out rerolls to the Termies & Forgefiends (if close) has been excellent (especially on overwatch), the Chosen with Fabius are durable and hit hard, and the dark commune over 16 accursed cultists is a massive tough, regenerative block that is a real thorn in peoples sides.

How are you finding Terminators? I like the idea of them, but most of the time I feel Abaddon is the one doing the most damage, in melee anyways.

Best,
Samii.

I like the lists listed above.

So I had a 3000 point mega battle me v. 2 1500 point space marine armies. My list was as follows:

Master of Possession und
10 x possessed und
5 x warptalons slan
2 x venomcrawlers nur
1 x hellbrute nur
1 x forgefiend und
warpsmith (just state and helped the forgefiend)
dark commune tz
20 x ranged cultists tz
4 x obliterators tz
Vindicator nur
Chaos Lord kh
10 x Chosen kh
daemon prince with wings SL
10 x traitor guard Tz (just holding backline)
Allied Chaos Knight Abomadant.

I ended up getting beat pretty badly, the new SM book has some really good options combined with somewhat kind of sillly point reductions/costs. I also went second and got caught with some of my units in the open (due to terrain) so really started off on my back foot. I also did not use the obliterators correctly. I am not going to review all the units I have talked about many times before, just some of the new to me ones.

5 x warptalons slan - well these guys got hit by a whirlwind indirect on turn 1 and despite having 3+ saves against the attacks, I lost 4 of them. So basically out of the fight from the very beginning. (aside on indirect. The rule should really require that if the shooting unit can't see the target, at least one other unit in your army has to see it. I mean it is really not fun to have a weapon that can just target anything and you can't do anything about it at all, especially going second). However, based on previous games I really think 10 of these could be good, but this game shows that they are pretty squishy, especially against damage 2 weapons.

2 x venomcrawlers nur with 1 x hellbrute nur- Again these guys did some pretty good damage, and the venomcrawlers are very good against marine infantry, especially with both [Lethal Hits] and [Sustained Hits] from the hellbrute. The hellbrute was ok, but he goes down petty quick to AT fire, but the ability to throw down [Lethal Hits] and [Sustained Hits] is so good. I think you could work this combo in a competitive list, but more forgefiends is probably better.

4 x obliterators tz- I really miss used these. I deepstiked in the rear and killed the whirlwind, however I should have put them more on the main line to deal with the two redemptor dreads that were causing me all kinds of problems (-1 damage still really really good especially with 2+ save now). I also put them in a spot where they were really exposed and were easily flanked and killed by eradactors and terminator. Long story short, they are good, and do a lot of damage, and are tough, but are not really as tough as a vehicle.

Vindicator nur- so yea, he got killed turn 1 before he could do anything on my first 10th ed use of him. However, my opponent had a SM one, and it was really good, tanking some AT, and the cannon, while swing-y, can put out some serious damage. Really want to try with a helbrute, but I think I am going back to TS for a bit.

Chaos Lord kh leading 10 x Chosen kh- The ability to both advance and charge and fall back and charge is really huge with these guys. They took out the infantry they fought easily, but got stuck in a bad spot fighting redemptors. They actually manage to put a lot of wounds on it, but my opponent rolled hot on the saves (again the 2+ made a huge difference) and they bounced off him twice. The three wounds does make them kind of tougher than you would think. I know people have been using them competitively and doing well, but I still think the possessed are better.

daemon prince with wings SL- So I know there is some back and forth on this guy on this tread about his utility. I think he can have a place, but really only as slannesh. He is really really fast, and he is pretty good at bulling any infantry other than terminators. Using the fall back and charge strat, I picked combat, did damage and then slipped away on my turn to keep moving to the backfield to deny objectives. He was ok with surviving as long as he is not the main target, especially with the 5+++ from the relic. He is still probably like 20 points to much, or needs an ap -3 on his main attack (I mean he is a daemon prince).

Allied Chaos Knight Abomadant. Maybe this thing is good in a knight detachment, but as an ally it is hot garbage. Its gun did next to nothing, its close combat was mediocre (again the low ap really hurts) and he really wasn't all that tough. The ability to put out some mortal wound was cute, but ultimately did nothing of consequence, and battle shocking a unit in your own turn with his ability is basically completely useless. I mean I could have had a land raider, a predator, and some legionaries for like 5 points more. Don't use this guy as an ally.

Probably going to play some TS for now, but hope this was helpful.

Samii wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:


How are you finding Terminators? I like the idea of them, but most of the time I feel Abaddon is the one doing the most damage, in melee anyways.

Best,
Samii.

While they are expensive they put in a lot of work...particularly with overwatch. I start the whole blob right on the deployment line knowing full well they're safe from fire with Dark Obscuration. As they slowly meander their way to the center objective (usually), they can shoot and overwatch anything encroaching into the 12' bubble. Most opponents want nothing to do with an Abby 10x termie blob. If they do want to get close, Abby is there to wreak havoc so yeah... fairly happy! With full hit re-rolls and dark parks on an overwatch they're a real menace (8x combi bolters, 2x reaper cannons, talons of horus.)

Hi,

So I've played quite a few games with CSM in 10th now and I have some observations, some of which are counter-meta:

I think a lot of people misuse the Nurgle strat and mark too many units Nurgle. If you declare it too soon, you make it obvious who its going and when, while marking too many units Nurgle limits your firepower utility. Granted, there are situations you want to pop it early; specifically turn 1 to get better position, or limit return fire. However, if you wait to use it, you are effectively splitting your opponent's shooting in that phase, making the other units in your army a bit tougher. If you are closer to your opponent (within 12"), it is a good idea to use it sooner, because you're getting the benefit of -1 to hit and parts of your opponent's army can't shoot, but otherwise it can be good to wait. The Chaos Land Raider is a great candidate to wait with: you can draw out a few shots first and then pop the strat. Those first shots could have gone into other things.

In terms of the Mark itself, it benefits some units shooting, but not others. Cultists, for example. Because they make objectives sticky, I actually want my opponent to be able to shoot them with indirect etc., because even if they die, they still hold it. So I mark them Tzeentch. Same for bikes. The shooting profile is better with those and the Nurgle Mark can go elsewhere.

Knowing when to pact is important too and which iteration to use. Sometimes it might be better to not pact. CSM have no problem with damage output, but a lot of people seem to lean into that. CSM have some tough units, Obliterators, Chaos Land Raider, Accursed Cultists etc., by shoring up and playing strategically, you can make it so that the enemy can't trade as efficiently as you. You have to work a bit harder at this, than say Space Marines, who have access to AoC and are cheaper, but if you play efficiently I think you have the best point-for-point trading utility in the game, its just you have to do a lot of on the spot calculations.

On the point of Terminators @Kangarupe I think they are the best candidate for Rapid Ingress. You drop them behind a wall and next turn shoot and charge. Add a Sorcerer and drop in a unit of Obliterators too: warp rift and Rapid Ingress combined with these two units can be a really devastating hammer blow, with no answer from the enemy. While I like the brick strategy of Terminators and Abaddon I think its an all eggs in one basket scenario and is not very mobile. In 10th the brick has less legs, because of the faster objective scoring pace.

Also, one last point: the Tzeentch oblits are an amazing unit, I had three of them effectively duel with and kill two Wraithknights in a game.

Best,
Samii.

has anyone tried a 10 man of Warptalons?

If so how did they do?

I have no major strategy when it comes to the terminators, but I'll tell you their psychological effect is strong, one big distraction carnifex while my small demon ally units, cultists, whatever are off scoring on various secondaries. That unit lives rent free in your opponents head.

As for obliterators...man, not a fan currently. I had two of them blow two rounds of shooting in a game the other day...low shot count, completely whiffed their hit and wound rolls. They're just so swingy. They have come out and been replaced by two seeker units.

Kangarupe wrote:
As for obliterators...man, not a fan currently. I had two of them blow two rounds of shooting in a game the other day...low shot count, completely whiffed their hit and wound rolls. They're just so swingy. They have come out and been replaced by two seeker units.

Yes, Obliterators are swingy: but they give you a lot of firepower utility and you do have some control over it, if you drop them close to something big, it improves the chances of destruction quite a bit on the melta profile, even if you roll low.

I always keep a command point to reroll one of the shots, if I need to.

I find CSM are quite swingy in shooting generally: you are always hoping to explode, if you don't spike the shooting can seem lack luster, even with rerolls.

Somewhat relatedly, I've found Tzeentch cultists to be a great utility shooting unit. If your opponent brings something big, their chip damage makes up points every time. With rerolls, I've had them take a couple of wounds off a Wraithknight a turn, for example.

Unrelatedly, how are people finding Cypher?

I think he's a great unit. He's a lone operative and can advance and do actions, meaning he can control a couple of objectives in my DZ or the midfield, he also has decent pistol shooting and can clear out chaff objective holders, better than his own points cost. The ability to increase strat cost is still great, even if you just use it deny your opponent a command reroll.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
As for obliterators...man, not a fan currently. I had two of them blow two rounds of shooting in a game the other day...low shot count, completely whiffed their hit and wound rolls. They're just so swingy. They have come out and been replaced by two seeker units.

Yes, Obliterators are swingy: but they give you a lot of firepower utility and you do have some control over it, if you drop them close to something big, it improves the chances of destruction quite a bit on the melta profile, even if you roll low.

I always keep a command point to reroll one of the shots, if I need to.

I find CSM are quite swingy in shooting generally: you are always hoping to explode, if you don't spike the shooting can seem lack luster, even with rerolls.

Somewhat relatedly, I've found Tzeentch cultists to be a great utility shooting unit. If your opponent brings something big, their chip damage makes up points every time. With rerolls, I've had them take a couple of wounds off a Wraithknight a turn, for example.

Unrelatedly, how are people finding Cypher?

I think he's a great unit. He's a lone operative and can advance and do actions, meaning he can control a couple of objectives in my DZ or the midfield, he also has decent pistol shooting and can clear out chaff objective holders, better than his own points cost. The ability to increase strat cost is still great, even if you just use it deny your opponent a command reroll.

Best,
Samii.

Tzeentch is my go to on cultists. You're absolutely right, between all the different weapon shots they can put out a fairly decent number of auto-wounding hits.

Cypher was in my list in early 10th but came out with the change to freebie stratagems. Since everyone's ability to mitigate CP loss was nerfed, he no longer fulfilled a justifiable role for the points. His damage output was pretty crap too, if he had is 9th ability to dip out of combat and into reserve he'd be worth it.

Obliterators... poopy slow and sometimes cannot be deep struck effectively if you're being screened well. I stand by my statement! haha

Tzeentch is my go to to cultists as well. 20 with tzeentch can actually do some damage especially against units with a low save.

In my opinion obliterators need to be 4 or none. Two is not enough. Mine have been key in several games taking out big enemies.

Just a thought

Samii wrote:
Hi,


On the point of Terminators @Kangarupe I think they are the best candidate for Rapid Ingress. You drop them behind a wall and next turn shoot and charge. Add a Sorcerer and drop in a unit of Obliterators too: warp rift and Rapid Ingress combined with these two units can be a really devastating hammer blow, with no answer from the enemy. While I like the brick strategy of Terminators and Abaddon I think its an all eggs in one basket scenario and is not very mobile. In 10th the brick has less legs, because of the faster objective scoring pace.\

Best,
Samii.

This comment flashed across my mind during a sleepless night last night lol...rapid ingress with a 10x block of terminators *somewhere useful* sounds extremely challenging. The unit footprint is huge, especially if you're running Abby with them. Better to have them on the board from the get go I say, control no man's land somewhere.

Hi all,

I've taken @Kangarupes' advice RE Obliterators.

As noted, they are slow and hard to place. I think with CSM you have to go all in offense, if you compromise you lose out on the factions strengths. With Obliterators they are a unit that shoots, can't be interacted with and then has decent offensive and defensive capabilities, in subsequent turns, so they trade well.

But if they are not possible to place, they lose a lot of their sparkle.

Also, CSM works better when there are multiple threats presented simultaneously and Obliterators work best by having a turn where they are hidden, which works against the faction symmetry, in my opinion.

So I replaced the Obliterators with Chosen and an Exalted Champion. They go in the Chaos Land Raider and present a turn 1 threat that can just demolish a DZ. If there's screens the Seekers can clear them and then the Chosen go in. I've found the unit has always made its points back and presents a threat that can't be ignored and draws attention away from other elements of the list.

Here it is:

Abaddon the Despoiler

Exalted Champion (Khorne)*

Dark Commune (Undivided)(x5)

Chosen (Khorne)(x10)

Helbrute (Nurgle)

Accursed Cultists (Undivided)(x16)

Chaos Cultists (Tzeentch)(x10)

Legionnaires (Undivided)(x10)

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)

Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5)

Chaos Land Raider (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Seekers (x5)

Nurglings (x3)

Nurglings (x3)

*Talisman of Burning Blood

Any thoughts?

Best,
Samii.

Did you also Changes the terminators with Legionaires? Will you Team them Up with abbadon? What is the Job of the Legionaires?

Samii wrote:
Hi all,

I've taken @Kangarupes' advice RE Obliterators.

As noted, they are slow and hard to place. I think with CSM you have to go all in offense, if you compromise you lose out on the factions strengths. With Obliterators they are a unit that shoots, can't be interacted with and then has decent offensive and defensive capabilities, in subsequent turns, so they trade well.

But if they are not possible to place, they lose a lot of their sparkle.

Also, CSM works better when there are multiple threats presented simultaneously and Obliterators work best by having a turn where they are hidden, which works against the faction symmetry, in my opinion.

So I replaced the Obliterators with Chosen and an Exalted Champion. They go in the Chaos Land Raider and present a turn 1 threat that can just demolish a DZ. If there's screens the Seekers can clear them and then the Chosen go in. I've found the unit has always made its points back and presents a threat that can't be ignored and draws attention away from other elements of the list.

Here it is:

Abaddon the Despoiler

Exalted Champion (Khorne)*

Dark Commune (Undivided)(x5)

Chosen (Khorne)(x10)

Helbrute (Nurgle)

Accursed Cultists (Undivided)(x16)

Chaos Cultists (Tzeentch)(x10)

Legionnaires (Undivided)(x10)

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)

Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5)

Chaos Land Raider (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Seekers (x5)

Nurglings (x3)

Nurglings (x3)

*Talisman of Burning Blood

Any thoughts?

Best,
Samii.

I prefer Legionnaires to Terminators because they A) give rerolls to Abaddon, meaning I don't need to use the undivided strat on him: that can go on the AC, B) give me some interesting shooting and assault options and C) are enough of a wound sink that if I expose them and the other shooting units, my opponent has to split fire and I don't have to pop the Nurgle strat immediately.

On that point, by waiting to pop that strat, I've saved up to 200-300 points worth of stuff: you have to think of it as investment in the other CSM units in your army, not just the unit its protecting.

Best,
Samii.

I have Something quite similar.

xxx Khorne Abba Lucius (2000 points)
Chaos Space Marines
Strike Force (2000 points)
Slaves to Darkness


CHARACTERS

Abaddon the Despoiler (310 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Drach’nyen
1x Talon of Horus

Lucius the Eternal (95 points)
• 1x Doom siren
1x Duellist’s sword and Lash of Torment

Warpsmith (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Flamer tendril
1x Melta tendril
1x Plasma pistol
1x Warp hammer



BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 9x Chaos Cultist
• 9x Close combat weapon
9x Cultist firearm

Cultist Mob (55 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 9x Chaos Cultist
• 9x Close combat weapon
9x Cultist firearm

Legionaries (90 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Aspiring Champion
• 1x Chaos Icon
1x Close combat weapon
1x Heavy melee weapon
1x Plasma pistol
• 4x Legionary
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Balefire tome
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Heavy melee weapon
1x Lascannon



DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Chaos Rhino (75 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-bolter
1x Combi-weapon
1x Havoc launcher



OTHER DATASHEETS

Chaos Terminator Squad (390 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Terminator Champion
• 1x Chainfist
1x Combi-bolter
• 9x Chaos Terminator
• 2x Accursed weapon
1x Chainfist
7x Combi-bolter
6x Power fist
2x Reaper autocannon

Havocs (135 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Havoc Champion
• 1x Plasma gun
1x Power fist
• 4x Havoc
• 4x Close combat weapon
4x Havoc lascannon

Khorne Lord of Skulls (480 points)
• 1x Gorestorm cannon
1x Great cleaver of Khorne
1x Hades gatling cannon

Noise Marines (85 points)
• 1x Noise Champion
• 1x Chaos Icon
1x Close combat weapon
1x Doom siren
1x Power fist
1x Sonic blaster
• 4x Noise Marine
• 1x Blastmaster
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
3x Sonic blaster

Raptors (90 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Raptor Champion
• 1x Plasma pistol
1x Power fist
• 4x Raptor
• 4x Astartes chainsword
2x Bolt pistol
2x Plasma pistol



ALLIED UNITS

Nurglings (35 points)
• 3x Nurgling Swarm
• 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings (35 points)
• 3x Nurgling Swarm
• 3x Diseased claws and teeth


Expect that the terminators are my pawns in which shadow the Lord of khorne moves Forward to Tank shock everything away. Lucius with the Legionaires im the rhino (cultists ho Out, Legionaires Go in) and the noise marines Take on another Side with fireing Angle.

When enemy blasts Lord of khorne away the Warp Smith Supports the rhino and suddenly blastmaster and lascanon Hit in 2s while sustained Hit at 5+. But Warp Smith ist more because i painted Up a cool model with it.

What do you think?

I think your list is stronger and can do everything right to Score big.

Oblits are incredibly popular though I must say! CSM won a huge 190 player GT in CA the other day...used 4 obliterators, as did 2nd place also running CSM. Common thread is Chosen in Rhinos which I can attest has been great. I run a 10x man Fabius Bile unit which always puts in work. Without natural invulnerable saves or feel no pains, they really need that protective shell, Fabius taking them to T5 is super helpful, and +1 to melee strength doesn't hurt either.

Either way...enjoy your games now girls and boys. We're getting hit with a nerf on the next dataslate for sure. Wouldn't be surprised to see Chosen get back corrected, as well as Oblits and Forgefiends going up even more. Lots of great tools leftover in the toolbox though fortunately.

Yeah, I've seen CSM are pulling ahead of Aeldari now.

This doesn't surprise me: I was regularly winning stand up firefights with Aeldari for a while now.

They have a better objective game of course, in my opinion.

But if you use Allies and Accursed Cultists intelligently, you can still lock them out.

I think the trick with CSM is to balance objective scorers and power play: you need a bit of both, some units can do both, but you still need a good balance at the list building stage.

If you build too heavily into power (Chosen, Possessed, Oblits, Forgefiends etc.), CSM become a one-trick army, they don't have the tactical toolkit that SM get with Gladius. So you need Nurglings, Seekers etc. But if you take too many you lose out on the faction strength: damage output.

I think Accursed Cultists are a great balance of the two (tough, damage output and OC 2).

You also have to figure out how to Pact well.

I actually think CSM are the strongest 'bully' army in 40K (and have been for a while), but to win with them you need to be really tactical. Which is great army design.

Best,
Samii.

Since I play pure Word Bearers I've been avoiding Abaddon as he doesn't fit (although at some point I want to get one and convert him... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em and all that) so thus far I've been focusing on 10 Possessed w/MoP, 2x Plasma forgefiends, and then generally 10 Terminators with a Sorcerer

I think I definitely need to get Accursed Cultists, not only do they fit well but they are super nasty from what I've seen, but budget is quite limited right now and I'd need a Dark Commune as well.

Chosen look like they are solid too if you go all out with a Lord and Champion/MoE, so I might look at repurposing some of my Legionaries to be Chosen since nobody would really know the difference anyway.

What I really want to get though, are Warp Talons.

Wayniac wrote:
Since I play pure Word Bearers I've been avoiding Abaddon as he doesn't fit (although at some point I want to get one and convert him... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em and all that) so thus far I've been focusing on 10 Possessed w/MoP, 2x Plasma forgefiends, and then generally 10 Terminators with a Sorcerer

I think I definitely need to get Accursed Cultists, not only do they fit well but they are super nasty from what I've seen, but budget is quite limited right now and I'd need a Dark Commune as well.

Chosen look like they are solid too if you go all out with a Lord and Champion/MoE, so I might look at repurposing some of my Legionaries to be Chosen since nobody would really know the difference anyway.

What I really want to get though, are Warp Talons.

I own 10 chosen, I want to run a second 10x man and thats precisely what I’m doing… buying the legionnaire set and kitbashing with everything I can leftover from the chosen sprues. They’re so similar, no one woold ever question it…. (except for maybe people in this specific thread ) $50 vs $100 no brainer.

I’ve got a hell talon, hell blade, and of course a Heldrake, plus an unfinished fire raptor conversion. I’ve been looking at the rules for aircraft and struggling to feel inspired to go to the length of organising a large enough game to make them feel worth it. They seem a lot easier to ‘herd’ (or perhaps, a lot harder to ‘steer’), and they’ve got none of the rules that used to make them resilient, other than not being chargeable. Anybody bothered with them? (Except a hover mode drake, which is more of a fast and funky DP)

Hell Blade and hell Talon are Legends now and dont seem to do anything with so Low ap and shots.
Only nice stuff about heldrakes was that you could Box your enemy in their deployment Zone Turn 1 when you got Turn 1. But now with that you have to Go the full length Up and down you need to stand Out in the Open to do that and that is a super risky move. One that you can do with 70 - 95 Points of nurglings cheaper and much less risky.