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Yeah, and plus you now need to measure its flight over terrain like Pythagoras. I’m honestly not sure what flyers are *for* in this edition. Almost feels like they’ve deliberately written them so janky that there’s no need to rebalance them because nobody will bother fielding them.

Seems like GW couldn't have kept Fly the rule in core rules, and for traditional flyer datasheets just repurposed the "supersonic" ability.

i.e
Heldrake
"Supersonic"
-Model must move it's minimum distance in a 180 degree direction, if it travels off the board, can't shoot, can't perform actions, etc etc...
-This model ignores all terrain features for the purpose of movement.
-Hard to hit, -1 when resolving shooting attacks against this model

It's not like a jet in the classic sense of the word would be flying that close to the ground that terrain would bother it. Silly.

Hi All,

So, I've been playtesting quite a bit against my mates Eldar. Every time I've been hammering him. He runs the Night Spinner meta list that is in vogue right now. I run the list I posted a while back (minor correction: the Exalted Champion is now a Chaos Lord).

It seems he can't do enough damage, even though I can't touch him with the indirect. He chips wounds off a Land Raider, kills a few cultists etc. Then, if he comes out of cover, he just gets blasted off the objectives every time.

If he stays out of sight, no problem I just flood his DZ with rapid ingress Accursed Cultists and Warp Talons.

The CSM meta seems to be leaning into assault, but I think blending shooting and assault is the real key to effective CSM.

Also the Helbrute is such a great force multiplier, against Orks, Space Wolves, World Eaters, it makes your own assault units with Slasnesh and Khorne marks much much better and dramatically increases the shooting effeciency of Tzeentch and Nurgle.

I'm surprised they aren't taken in ever list.

Best,
Samii.

When, in which round, is your helbrute normaly shoot down? For me without nurgle strat it was always like,"Aha thats your force mutiplier" and it was killed

 Fip wrote:
When, in which round, is your helbrute normaly shoot down? For me without nurgle strat it was always like,"Aha thats your force mutiplier" and it was killed

I'll address this with an illustrative scenario.

In the last game my Eldar opponent went first (the Night Spinner spam list). I had everything hidden, my Nurgle LR with Chosen on the line, and the Night Spinners and flicker jumping Warp Spiders killed a few Accursed Cultists (which regenerated later). He moved his Wraithguard onto an objective on one flank and a Harlequin troupe in a Starweaver on the other.

My turn everything jumps out and Abaddon pops reroll hits. The FF kills seven Wraithguard, and the LR finishes them off and the Spirtseer leader. The Helbrute, bikes and Legionnaires demech the Harelquins and then the Chosen take the objective off them. Warp Spiders are killed by Accursed Cultists. The Yncarne has no good places to pop up.

His turn its basically a stalemate: if he moves another unit out of his DZ, the overwatch from FF wipes it out (with Abaddon rerolls), if the Yncarne challenges the Chosen, with Khorne strat its basically dead too.

So, I've lost a few Accursed Cultists, maybe some Chosen and my opponent at this point has lost most of his army, except the Night Spinners.

The Helbrute gives such incredible firepower utility to an optimised CSM list with Nurgle/Tzeentch (where both abilities crit on 5+), it doesn't matter after the first volley if the enemy kills it. That's assuming they still can, its done its job. The bikes, FF, LR, Legionnaires (even Cultists) just gain so much firepower utility from it, in terms of target choice. They can crack armour, elite infantry, hordes etc. Against assault armies, the same is true for Khorne and Slaanesh. So, the Chosen and Warp Talons gain (even more) target utility.
Knowing this is one of the reasons the Yncarne was hesitant to drop in my DZ, when a single Warp Talon unit can solo it, in range of the Helbrute.

On a separate note, I'm going to make a couple of changes to my list. I'm going to replace the Accursed Cultist blob with a smaller min size unit and a Chaos Spawn unit. I'm dropping the Dark Commune. I think the great thing about Chaos is that they do cheap, tough scoring units well. The smaller AC unit becomes like a Necron blob that doesn't need max size or characters (to benefit from the regen), the Chaos Spawn aren't great, but they are cheap and faster than regular AC. With a lot of cheap, tough, distributed objective scoring units I think the list can become overwhelming to play against.

I have enough hard hitters in the Chosen, FF and Abaddon. Bikes, Warp Talons and Spawn can do work if they need to. Also, I'm changing the Chaos Lord to a MoP. The extra movement (+4") you get from him, means that Chosen unit in the LR can charge on turn 1 deep into the enemy DZ, so capture outpost is guaranteed, without screens.

I have enough points left for a Changeling. Ideally, I'd like Cypher. I've found that he can be used to stop going to ground. This might be a bit obscure, in 10th edition it's true its easier to get cover, but with the terrain setups if you want to hold an objective with infantry, a lot of them need to be in the open. My opponent loves to go to ground with Wraithguard, on objectives. Being able to stop this could be useful.

Best,
Samii.

Another Helbrute anecdote.

A Cultist unit, within range of it was able to kill almost an entire ork mob with shooting, thanks to the crits on 5+ and rerolls from Abaddon.

A single Cultist unit. That's ridiculous levels of utility.

Relatedly, I've been using the smaller AC unit and it has been doing extremely well for me. For fun, I played a mirror match. The same combo (LR and FF) that killed an entire Wraithguard unit, failed to kill the single AC unit on an objective. I was giving them a 4++ with Abaddon. They went down to two big guys, but next turn I just regenerated a big one and three of the small ones. Blast mitigation helped.

Again, for the cost (95 points) that's ridiculous utility.

Best,
Samii.

"... and rerolls from Abaddon."

Hmm...

That's nice to know, thank for the explanation.

If you go big on MoP, Chosen first Turn Charge you can sprinkle in an MoE (Master of Executions) for Character Snipping.

I guess in a mirror match you could take out Abbadon of a Terminator unit and maybe half the unit by first strike and then fighting on death.
First MoP Precision shot with dagger on Abbadon them Precision Melee with rerolls from MoE. Maybe with Khorne relic for more reliability?

Edit:
That way you can have captured enemy outpost and it was all worth it, because Abbadon and some terminator kills are an uptrade for your whole first strike unit in points.

Yes, I actually like the idea of the Turn 1 Chosen bomb with MoE and MoP.

Ordinarily, I would not want to spend that many points on a unit, but it can literally demolish the enemy DZ. It force the opponent to screen, but not all armies have screens and you can always wait until they're gone before unleashing it. With the LR, the threat range is just so massive and there's no real counter, as the Nurgle strat protects you completely from shooting.

I actually think this could be a real winner.

Best,
Samii.

 Fip wrote:
That's nice to know, thank for the explanation.

If you go big on MoP, Chosen first Turn Charge you can sprinkle in an MoE (Master of Executions) for Character Snipping.

I guess in a mirror match you could take out Abbadon of a Terminator unit and maybe half the unit by first strike and then fighting on death.
First MoP Precision shot with dagger on Abbadon them Precision Melee with rerolls from MoE. Maybe with Khorne relic for more reliability?

Edit:
That way you can have captured enemy outpost and it was all worth it, because Abbadon and some terminator kills are an uptrade for your whole first strike unit in points.

I like this combo a lot, will deffo give it a try! Sadly nobody's bringing a Khorne relic in a unit that's being joined by a Psyker - everyone needs to be Marked the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you bring Slaanesh Warp Talons as a utility unit, should it prove unnecessary to DS them then they can join in the game of tag.

So how do you get a first turn charge with Chosen?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So how do you get a first turn charge with Chosen?

Presuming dawn of war and LR is leading the charge...

LR moves 10" + disembark 3" + advance w/ MoP 2" - 7" + charge w/ MoP 3" - 13".

Probably use a CP to re-roll charge roll for better than avg roll.

So a threat range of: 18" - 33" with the avg dice roll being ~24"

Provided my math is right...

Pretty spicey!

 whembly wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So how do you get a first turn charge with Chosen?

Presuming dawn of war and LR is leading the charge...

LR moves 10" + disembark 3" + advance w/ MoP 2" - 7" + charge w/ MoP 3" - 13".

Probably use a CP to re-roll charge roll for better than avg roll.

So a threat range of: 18" - 33" with the avg dice roll being ~24"

Provided my math is right...

Pretty spicey!

You can't Advance from a Disembark. Not to my knowledge.

Yeah, no advancing after disembarking.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can't Advance from a Disembark. Not to my knowledge.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, no advancing after disembarking.

I stand corrected.

LR moves 10" + disembark 3" + charge w/ MoP 3" - 13".

So a threat range of: 16" - 26" with the avg dice roll being ~20"

Still... not too shabby.

Hmm. Do we get to measure disembark from the tip of the LR tracks, or do we lose some reach to the recessed front door? Is this a binary win/lose the game gambit based on whether or not we throw a 10+ with a reroll? Are there many factions that can make us lose the reroll or penalise our charge range? Are there any means to improve our charge? It's going to be epic when it works but I'm really not liking those odds, this fails more often than not except against the greenest marks.

Does it bug anyone else that the Master of Possession has a movement of 8", but Possessed have a movement of 9"?

World championships metawatch article’s live.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/23/warhammer-40000-metawatch-the-world-champions-of-warhammer/

The winning list was an incredibly tight and efficient Rhino & Torments list. I’m looking at it and presuming each Rhino carries a Legionary squad and a Chosen squad with Chaos Lord? I guess they’re using their free strats to throw down challenges and activate full rerolls after a first turn of everything that’s not a Forgefiend advancing, and cheerfully ignore Callidus and similar counter-stratagem stuff.

CSM are sitting at a 54% win rate, which is the absolute sweet spot. The studio mainly seems to nerf and buff armies to keep them within 45-55%, so hopefully we won’t have a lot of points hikes to deal with.

The only thing that will happen is that GW will increase the price of Chosen and Torments.

Okay, so, how are we weighing up MoE vs Lord using challenge strat as and when?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The only thing that will happen is that GW will increase the price of Chosen and Torments.

Most likely. While I think those changes are probably warranted, I think the bigger balance issue with CSM is in the strats and Mark interactions. I think the strats are probably a bit too powerful given how permissive the Mark rules are and that's one of the big drivers of moist successful CSM lists. Most good lists are set up to always get the maximum value from the strats and it leads to weird interactions like Noise Marines in Nurgle Rhinos, or basically all transport vehicles being Nurgle to make use of the strat.

I suspect the following rebalances are being playtested:
- Chosen price hike
- Accursed Cultists price hike
- Transports and passengers having to have the same Marks
- Transports only being allowed to carry one unit

I probably should clarify RE the LR.

If you tilt the base, then disembark 3," move 8," advance d6 + 1" and charge 2d6 + 1," you will hit the enemy DZ fairly reliably.

Of course, its not a guarantee but most armies lack the ability to do this.

You can do it with a Rhino too.

Best,
Samii.

 lindsay40k wrote:
- Transports only being allowed to carry one unit

Why that one, specifically? Transports being able to carry multiple units has been a thing since 8th. Why change it now?

A unit can't advance after leaving transport. Still the transport land raider can advance. Of course you loose the shooting, but afterwards the units dropping out should be able to charge. A disembarked unit counts as having moved, but not advanced. So can still charge in any case. Or do I miss something? So the calculation is

LR moves 10" + d6advance + disembark 3" + charge w/ MoP 4" - 19".

So a threat range of: 17" - 31" with the avg dice roll being ~23"

Assault Ramp: Each time a unit disembarks from this model after it has made a Normal move, that unit is still eligible to declare a charge this turn.

Land Raider can't advance and do this.

Samii wrote:
I probably should clarify RE the LR.

If you tilt the base, then disembark 3," move 8," advance d6 + 1" and charge 2d6 + 1," you will hit the enemy DZ fairly reliably.

Of course, its not a guarantee but most armies lack the ability to do this.

You can do it with a Rhino too.

Best,
Samii.

The move is measured based on the path of the part of the model that moves the furthest, so you can't get "extra" movement by tilting the model.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
- Transports only being allowed to carry one unit

Why that one, specifically? Transports being able to carry multiple units has been a thing since 8th. Why change it now?

A handful of armies won tournaments with the (dis)loyal 32 and GW waged a furiously disproportionate war on soup, driving a truck through every thematically diverse grand alliance collection and forcing them to climb through a bewilderingly complicated and inconsistent obstacle course with topography that changed every six months (and ultimately parked on “Traitor Guard are a kind of Chaos Space Marine, take a platoon of them if you want”), it would be entirely on-brand for a tournament win by three Rhinos full of Heretacs and Chosen to beget a severe over-correction of a core rule that wildly oscillates until the twilight of 11th edition

 Rihgu wrote:

Samii wrote:
I probably should clarify RE the LR.

If you tilt the base, then disembark 3," move 8," advance d6 + 1" and charge 2d6 + 1," you will hit the enemy DZ fairly reliably.

Of course, its not a guarantee but most armies lack the ability to do this.

You can do it with a Rhino too.

Best,
Samii.

The move is measured based on the path of the part of the model that moves the furthest, so you can't get "extra" movement by tilting the model.

Ahh, you're "that guy". Maybe not technically cheating, but....

He's not the one tilting the model. How does that make him 'that guy'?