[LI] Thoughts on legions so far

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**leopard**

tneva82 wrote:
leopard wrote:

also while Six Vanquishers did drop a warhound, they had some lucky rolls to do it and the warhound fluffed its saves

Well that's given Average is 3 lascannon hit and 3 vanguisher.

That leaves 1 vanguisher to be saved(obviously warhound will tank the vanguisher cannon to void shields) for 75% chance and 3 lascannon so 1.75 wounds in average out of 4.

That's assuming warhound isn't hugging terrain for -1/-2 to hit by hiding part of the titan out of sight. Which scout titans with their manouverability generally should aim to do. They are also small enough that the -2 to hit isn't even super hard to get.

it was a clear shot, he positioned it to be partly in cover, then added "first fire" orders, I moved the tanks to get a clear shot

six lascannons got four hits, slightly above average but not unexpected, dropped both shields and got lucky to do a damage point

six vanquishers got three hits and two more failed saves and good night Mr Wobbly was nice knowing you, this after it fired at a bunch of rapier laser cannons, which actually wasn't a bad choice, it wiped most of them and in turn protected an objective, just got unlikely

have more terrain in the works including more larger buildings specifically as LoS blockers, some industrial stuff that blocks sight but cannot be occupied is also in the works.

my Warhound lived by hanging back out of range for the most part - which is another issue with the Vanquisher, the long range, though here I had moved up to get the laser shots and hardly used the range

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oh, and had it survived there was another six waiting.. which ended up without a viable target on the first turn, so in effect while only six killed it, it "took" the fire of twelve

**westiebestie**

Yeah let's wait about 4 weeks so we see the full army lists with Artillery and assault transports, Drop Pods and Fast Attack as well as SA core transports before tweaking points or lists shall we? Those things will shake up what's good a fair bit and introduce counters to mainly Gun lines.

Vanquishers are a bit OP currently for sure, but soon (TM) we can approach and charge them out of Land Raiders & Spartans, or Drop Pods around them and throw Dreads at them.

Already you can Turn 1 charge them out of a Thawk which is pretty survivable to Overwatch without Skyfire. SA needs air cover to protect them from that.

I thought it was only Assault marines that could turn 1 charge as I thought you had to change to Skimmer in the end phase only. But Paragraph 4 of the Embark/Disembark rule p97 states Flyers w Hover can touch down during their move to disembark troops, immediately changing to Skimmer. Disembark Terminators or Contemptors on a Charge order. What survived Overwatch should be able to take out those Vanquishers tanks. Then the Thawk changes to Flyer in the End phase and flies off, becoming a useful strafing Gunship for Turns 2+. Assuming it survived. This means Astartes can charge out to 25+1+10 = 36" Turn 1. Glass Cannon, but deadly. Works best with multiple Thawks as you might loose one or its contents. People brag about taking out a full Armoured Comp with a twin Thawk Turn 1 Charge.

At the very least it forces Tank players to think about their deployment.

Anyway Drop Pods soon bring this to a lot of units and anywhere on the table, presumably for cheaper.

leopard wrote:
guessing if they do it right Land Raiders will fall under armour, with some formations able to take them as transports or some detachments as dedicated transports

Spartans the same, though maybe slightly more restricted

wondering on the stats, 2+ armour at a guess, and for the basic land raider a hull heavy bolter and a pair of "accurate" las-cannon sponsons, perhaps lacking the "Arc (Front)" rule

issue is the Spartan if they give it four "accurate" las cannon will either be too expensive or over powered in game, personally I'd give it three "accurate" dice

could go with a 1+ save on them as well, so a 2+ if you flank them, or a 2+ with a note they do not suffer the -1 from the rear

I am Thinking

LR Transport, 1W 2+, 2 Accurate (TL) Lascannons

Spartan Transport/Heavy Armour, 2W, 2+, 4 Accurate LC shots or 2x Laser Destroyers (4 Shots)

Spartan should be balanced by point cost, its a strong, survivable vehicle.

**leopard**

oh for restrictions I'm just thinking that as a stop gap for now that I'm going with myself

charging is another one where the activations game matters, you bring in your Verminators and manage a charge on the tanks, which may or may not overwatch, more likely their escort unit will overwatch (i.e. something nearby specifically there for the purpose)

if you have the number of activations to wait for the tanks to activate, or they are on first fire, its gravy. if not the tanks are not pinned by the infantry and can just back off (unless you can surround them of course)

so its not perfect, especially if you are burning points on expensive assault transports, and even if you are thats a lot of points to kill a unit of tanks

unless you are also grabbing an objective or key part of the board in the process naturally

will be more stuff soon though thats going to make rear area and flank defence a lot more important and allow marines to do what they are meant to be doing, working as shock troops

**westiebestie**

Yup, but I don't consider the Thawk cost a Tax as its pretty great IMO. And yeah you have to play the activation game, as always. Come in last, target something that has already advance moved so it can't drive out of CC, or is on FF. It pretty much forces the SA player to dedicate escorts, and stay back, avoid the best lanes of fire, and avoid FF. Which means objectives are yours. A threat in being. Terminators also bring a lot of TS so once there, they can threaten any objectives. 80pts of Terminators very likely take back 2-3x their cost by taking out a big SA tank detachment even if taken out immediately after.

Anyway for now it's expensive, soon anything in a LR can Assault out to 16+1+10 = 27" from your DZ.

Drop Pods anywhere you like Turn 1. LC dreads getting rear arcs and/or charges. Wonder what the Dread Pods will cost in points.

This will drastically alter what's possible.

Also note that Vanquisher Russ squadrons have very few shots, if powerful. So in a game of rock, paper, scissors they come out a lot worse on Overwatch then let's say a Sicaran against a rush charge. Russ roll 2 dice each, Sicarans throw out 3+2+1/2 sponson dice, so 6-7 each. 2/4 of which are on 5+ instead of 6+. Suddenly those OP Vanquishers are only OP if allowed to do their thing.

A rounded list once we get complete lists will have to contain fast threats. To chop the shooty. And balance defensive capability to shoot the choppy.

Heck even Knights get to 32-36" with a turn 1 March & turn 2 Charge.

I can't see any army really counting on avoiding melee by Turn 2.

Lets see how lists look with Artillery, Pods, Transports & Assault Transports.

**Albertorius**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah. Until we’ve a wider suite of options, I think it’s safe to say we’re not seeing the game at its full potential

This, of course, has nothing to do with GW approaching it as DLCs

I will be very interested on seeing the final opinions when the game is actually complete ^^

**leopard**

is any GW game actually complete?

this is a joke and I know what you mean, I suspect there will be a lot of options but a few rock-paper-nuke lists that work and a lot of stuff thats nice on a shelf

it will however be very different.

and yes Thunderhawks are not a tax unit as they can do work, assuming they last more than until the next activation after they arrive of course (and a unit able to reasonably reliably bring it down will be even more expensive in Intercept mode), they are however very expensive given assault bods especially have a pretty decent move on their own

I think with more area terrain like trees the ability to operate them in skimmer mode for pop up attacks and really only ever face overwatch will be decent

have also seen the Auxila fliers in action now, two flights of two lightnings is far from cheap but they did a lot of work and all four survived, indeed were never even fired at, using 30" range missiles and only closing the laser range towards the end of the game

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what is notable from last nights game is that as usual the first turn was brutal, about a quarter of my models and a third of the enemy destroyed in the turn

also I have previously seen it but my opponent now has as well, sending assault marines after troops in buildings that out number you is a waste of good models, they need to be going in to clean up a crippled unit

apparently in previous games he had been using titans as building demolition tools, he didn't try it here, largely because it didn't live that long but also he noted getting that close was suicidal

also a 100% focus on the way to score points is critical

**SU-152**

leopard wrote:

the LR are 43 points per wound they have, the Baneblade 50, which is crazy when you consider the firepower

/quote] /quote]

Haven't you thought about comparing the LR firepower with the TH firepower? because the later seems way more OP than the former.

**leopard**

not sure I think the TH is overpowered in terms of firepower, faced too last night and I think between them they killed about two infantry stands

as with other things they can have a lot of guns but die quickly

problem is a TH is a lot of points, takes two wounds and is dead. six LR(V) can take six wounds, and work as degrading performance as they are slowly removed. but anything with the likes of "engine killer" can still only splat one wound from them

**The_Real_Chris**

Crablezworth wrote:

Another idea I had was ditching, allowing plains to immediately go back into reserve if overwatched but they burn their whole turn.

Yes, depending on how the rest of the releases pan out suffering damage from Overwatch could bounce the aircraft (and their payload/transported units) back into reserves. Maybe miss next turn as well. Note if they attack with bombs during their move then get brought down they are dead not bounced as caught during attack run.

**Crablezworth**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:

Another idea I had was ditching, allowing plains to immediately go back into reserve if overwatched but they burn their whole turn.

Yes, depending on how the rest of the releases pan out suffering damage from Overwatch could bounce the aircraft (and their payload/transported units) back into reserves. Maybe miss next turn as well. Note if they attack with bombs during their move then get brought down they are dead not bounced as caught during attack run.

Yeah good point about the bombing run.

**The_Real_Chris**

How are people finding a horde of small activations vs a few large ones style match ups?

**leopard**

looked at the bomb option for the lightnings, not sure I see a situation to ever use it, not because they don't look decent, they do, but the target has to be within movement range of my board edge (unless I can drop into hover mode), and means a lot can decide to fire overwatch so the most effective will

better to stay at range with missiles

**Crablezworth**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
How are people finding a horde of small activations vs a few large ones style match ups?

The problem is the core of the game is like AT in that a lot just comes down to who shoots first, but combined with the fact that the most popular order is advance, move and shoot, so the balance is keeping the tempo of activations.

Stuff that messes with that imo is really maxed out units in terms of firepower. Do the math on 10 vanquishers shooting just about anything and it's a bit upsetting. There's no right or wrong answer mind you, and that's sort of the other problem. Formations don't limit very much, I could make a 50 leman russ tank formation with 6 activations or an 8 leman russ tank formation with 3. But nothing is limiting those formations other than point cost, Case in point with the low end, I could have 6 formations of 8 leman russes and baneblade at 460pts per formation for a grand total of 18 activations anyway.

so if i doubled up all those units into two detachment teams working in tandem, basically 2 units of 4 russes instead of 1 of 8/10 I double up activations and available targets, both units can also move out from cover at the same time.

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leopard wrote:
looked at the bomb option for the lightnings, not sure I see a situation to ever use it, not because they don't look decent, they do, but the target has to be within movement range of my board edge (unless I can drop into hover mode), and means a lot can decide to fire overwatch so the most effective will

better to stay at range with missiles

It's perhaps useful on boards with a lot of area terrain. But with sentinels and marine missile launchers also having ignores cover, doesn't seem as useful. The lightning to me seems all about maxing missiles and sniping long range.

**leopard**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
How are people finding a horde of small activations vs a few large ones style match ups?

I have found you don't need a horde of activations, but you do want to maintain having two or three more than your enemy, provides potentially a huge advantage

e.g. force his stuff to charge while I still have an assault unit on charge orders to come to the rescue in a way it cannot be pinned, force fliers in before my interceptors

you do want some decent sized blocks though so as to be able to get the bulk of your firepower out quickly

**Pacific**

SamusDrake wrote:
There's that as well.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there are a lot of Legions threads on the go. I still think a 30K section, with it's 4 games, is worth consideration.

I agree. Where is a good place to ask, Nuts & Bolts section?

This place has gone from about 4 or 5 of us regularly posting before Legions to about 50!* I guess a good problem to have but not ideal if you aren't interested in that game I guess.

*and I almost certainly wouldn't have been told I am 'breaking the social contract' and am a dastard for mounting my missile launcher marines on strip bases before

**westiebestie**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
How are people finding a horde of small activations vs a few large ones style match ups?

A bit more activations than your enemy is a big advantage when it comes to getting charges to stick, unless your scale is enough to pin them you want to charge after they've already moved so they can't advance away.

There's a small points premium to bring more activations, as adding models to a Detachment is cheaper per model. So 4 Kratos are cheaper than 2+2 for Example. 4 costs 260p, 2+2 cost 300p. That's 15% more, so it adds up and is not negligible imo.

So it forces one to think during army building.

**tneva82**

leopard wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
leopard wrote:

also while Six Vanquishers did drop a warhound, they had some lucky rolls to do it and the warhound fluffed its saves

Well that's given Average is 3 lascannon hit and 3 vanguisher.

That leaves 1 vanguisher to be saved(obviously warhound will tank the vanguisher cannon to void shields) for 75% chance and 3 lascannon so 1.75 wounds in average out of 4.

That's assuming warhound isn't hugging terrain for -1/-2 to hit by hiding part of the titan out of sight. Which scout titans with their manouverability generally should aim to do. They are also small enough that the -2 to hit isn't even super hard to get.

it was a clear shot, he positioned it to be partly in cover, then added "first fire" orders, I moved the tanks to get a clear shot

six lascannons got four hits, slightly above average but not unexpected, dropped both shields and got lucky to do a damage point

six vanquishers got three hits and two more failed saves and good night Mr Wobbly was nice knowing you, this after it fired at a bunch of rapier laser cannons, which actually wasn't a bad choice, it wiped most of them on the first turn, so in effect while only six killed it, it "took" the fire of twelve

Note you resolve all hits and then defender allocates. Obviously he'll allocate vanquishers to void shields.

Well guess he could but why allow titan to be hit by armourbane when you can drop void shields instead

**ashlevrier**

westiebestie wrote:
I'm a handful of games in, maximum 1500p yet. So far liking it a lot even though it has its issues.

Here are some quick lessons our group has learned so far (only Astartes vs Astartes yet).

-Playing tactically for the Scenario at hand is rewarded
-Going overly aggressive to score VPs turn 1 is punished by Divide & Conquer and the other player has so far swing round and won for us (not yet tested infiltrate, this is with turn 1 March/air deployed assault marines. Infiltrate is stronger, so looking forward to facing that, except maybe in Retrieve & Forward Push)
-Overwatch is crucial, it's much easier to stop Infantry/transports BEFORE they can garrison
-Buildings within 3" of an Objective are a death trap. They go down easily. So far I've stayed maximum 1-2 turns in a Garrison, using Transports to redeplpy before it collapses
-Point Defence is a strong ability both in Overwatch & firing out of sequence/split fire
-Flyers deal pain but are taken out easily by weight of fire since everything can shoot at them (boo)
-Reaver is a bit too strong at 1500p, where not enough detachments are available to strip its Shields & overwhelm it. We'll probably leave it to 2000+ and go for a Warhound next time round.
-Knight Questoris are pretty deadly but also far from Invulnerable
-A & B weapon choices for the same points cost aren't balanced at all. Case in point Contemptors, TLLC is crazily betterer than AssCans.

Here's my review & Comparison with EA30K/EpicAU 30k that I really like.

I will update after bigger games and any Erratas and if course once we get more complete army lists with core transports & artillery.

Rules 8/10
Balance 5/10
Weighted 7.5/10

+Good terrain rules that really affect gameplay, same as EA30k, but also terrain that you can affect (by targeting structures)
+Balancing mechanics built into Army building, Formations limiting what you can take to limit spam & Strategic assets being limited
+Detachments with higher initial cost and reduced expansion cost forces you to choose if you want more activations or larger Formations/Detachments that are harder to break
+Multiple Victory Condition scenarios
+Objective Control/Tactical Strength values is a good mechanic
+Scale rules, larger units can shoot and/or leave cc and move over smaller units
+/- The USP of LI, its Hybrid phase/alternating activation system. Orders locked in start of turn forces you to think ahead but at the cost of reactivity during the turn. Subphases of taking turns activating vs true alternating activations. Means no possibility to move after everything has shot.
Also activations are not necessarily alternating, if player 1 has chosen fewer or no prders for a certain phase player 2 potentially gets to do lots in a row
+/- Legion Traits add flavour, but at the cost of balance as the power level is very unequal. Could have cost points per Formation to balance them?
-A bit slow. Very granular with (too) many special rules and traits for large games. CC with one vs one pairing also slows the game.
-No supression/pinning mechanic. Just focus fire to kill and hope to break as there is no pinning units you can't kill enough of to break. Morale plays little role over all as even broken formations' units can be ordered to Move & Shoot & charge
-No degradation of Multi wound units as they are damaged. Together with lack of supression this means everything is at full capacity until dead. Which will again reward larger/tougher units and make it sometimes pointless to shoot at things you can't finish. e.g. a Warlord Titan with 1W remaining is as dangerous to you as an undamaged one.
-Bad internal balance. A&B weapon choices for the same points where one is clearly statistically better. Also Titans in particular gain more in power level than points increase, bigger is stronger per point
-Everything gets to shoot at flyers

Here images from our last games for terrain density reference, if your group has come to other conclusions. We are working on more scatter, obstacles & obstruction area terrain.

The balance can be improved by Erratas & house Erratas.

Its also early days, incomplete game without assault/core transports & artillery.

-Going overly aggressive to score VPs turn 1 is punished by Divide & Conquer. every time i play aggressive i win. but so far you have only played marine vs marine. as i am one of two marine players in the group and everyone else is aux. i have sean both armys be played. establishing board control and forcing the other guy into his corner or deployment zone so i can hold the objectives is for now the winning strate.

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leopard wrote:
high speed stuff and hopefully flanking stuff is going to mix the game up a fair bit, especially drop pods

i hope drop pods have a way to not come into contact with buildings. otherwise they die with no save. i lost a full unit of terminators because they scattered into a building.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Also, seems folks haven’t yet encountered Really Big Things, like Warlords and up in scale, because it seems our collections aren’t large enough to hit the point threshold to allow such Behemoths.

So again, not and to never doubt the experience of others, Spesh when I’m yet to roll the bones and actually, y’know, play? We’re collectively yet to see the game at its full potential.

**Crablezworth**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, seems folks haven’t yet encountered Really Big Things, like Warlords and up in scale, because it seems our collections aren’t large enough to hit the point threshold to allow such Behemoths.

So again, not and to never doubt the experience of others, Spesh when I’m yet to roll the bones and actually, y’know, play? We’re collectively yet to see the game at its full potential.

Reavers even with warp missile banned are very strong at 1500 points. And warlords can be taken at 2000. The reaver if kitted for long range is just very strong like the warlord. In the case of the last game, reaver had two laser blasters and the turbo laser up top, a lot of 40 inch range shooting, 8 dice worth and 2 of those are accurate so can be re-rolled. It's not that it killed a bazillion points but it did remove a kratos unit very easily at long range, it was that it just had so much of the board in range, even with a fair amount of los blocking, It can also split this fire pretty efficiently if need be.

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ashlevrier wrote:

i hope drop pods have a way to not come into contact with buildings. otherwise they die with no save. i lost a full unit of terminators because they scattered into a building.

I don't like that the only real balancer for deep strike is the risk of total destruction. I think the mishap table handled it better, I'd rather the unit just went back into reserve and was delayed or at worse got placed by the opponent. Both of those still seem better than the unit getting wiped.

With that said, there really needs to be some limits on it, I sorta don't want to see giant armies of pods, I think they're really cool in combined arms but in a skew list its gonna get boring fast even if deep strike remains really deadly in terms of scatter.

**ashlevrier**

leopard wrote:
another game, 2k+ warhound

enemy was marines, armour & demi, with a pair of thunderhawks eating a good few points

I have Auxilia, armour & pioneed, plus marine garrison

so yes..

- Thunderhawks can be annoying when you only have -1 AP firing at them, but not half as annoying as a pair of lightnings removing one in "intercept" mode with decent dice
- Vanquishers are broken, yes I had 16 of them out of 18 Leman Russ, one unit of six one shotted his warhound, another deleted most of a block of nine predators.
- having assault marines, on charge orders as a reserve in place is wonderful for dealing with enemy who think they have gotten a charge off against armour only to find friends drop by to say hello
- thudd guns are evil little sods

by turn four we called it, as by then while we were equal on points I had half my army to the marines having basically nothing so the 5th turn was mine, and I was on all three objectives. I also had my secondary and he didn't to add in

I think the big stuff is seriously over costed for its robustness

-Vanquishers are just the better option for killing tanks. also because so much of the aux weapons out range the marines. marines have to play aggressive. that vanq has 32 inches i think.
-the knights and titans seam to be lacking fire power or deffence for there points. like we bring knights for fun because there just not. 3 vanqs ends a knight.
-i dont own any thunders yet. something we have though about doing with them is pop up attacks. turn them into longbows basicaly.
-in the last game we played the aircraft didnt even matter. as i firmly had almost 1500 points on all the objectives the two lightings just didnt have the fire power to do anything to me.

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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, seems folks haven’t yet encountered Really Big Things, like Warlords and up in scale, because it seems our collections aren’t large enough to hit the point threshold to allow such Behemoths.

So again, not and to never doubt the experience of others, Spesh when I’m yet to roll the bones and actually, y’know, play? We’re collectively yet to see the game at its full potential.

at 3k you just need 2100 points of marine or aux. the last 900 can be a warlord and a knight. because the warhound is 330 you cant bring a warlord and warhound in the same list a 3k.

i have 2100 points of marines and i have a large number of titans and knights. but no one else seams to be ready to play at 3k yet. the game may play completly def at that level. but until then i dont know.

**leopard**

I think the thunderhawk could make a good, if expensive, "Apache longbow"

**ashlevrier**

Crablezworth wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, seems folks haven’t yet encountered Really Big Things, like Warlords and up in scale, because it seems our collections aren’t large enough to hit the point threshold to allow such Behemoths.

So again, not and to never doubt the experience of others, Spesh when I’m yet to roll the bones and actually, y’know, play? We’re collectively yet to see the game at its full potential.

Reavers even with warp missile banned are very strong at 1500 points. And warlords can be taken at 2000. The reaver if kitted for long range is just very strong like the warlord. In the case of the last game, reaver had two laser blasters and the turbo laser up top, a lot of 40 inch range shooting, 8 dice worth and 2 of those are accurate so can be re-rolled. It's not that it killed a bazillion points but it did remove a kratos unit very easily at long range, it was that it just had so much of the board in range, even with a fair amount of los blocking, It can also split this fire pretty efficiently if need be.

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ashlevrier wrote:

i hope drop pods have a way to not come into contact with buildings. otherwise they die with no save. i lost a full unit of terminators because they scattered into a building.

I don't like that the only real balancer for deep strike is the risk of total destruction. I think the mishap table handled it better, I'd rather the unit just went back into reserve and was delayed or at worse got placed by the opponent. Both of those still seem better than the unit getting wiped.

With that said, there really needs to be some limits on it, I sorta don't want to see giant armies of pods, I think they're really cool in combined arms but in a skew list its gonna get boring fast even if deep strike remains really deadly in terms of scatter.

yeah. like i know they deep strike all the time into ships and buildings just fine in the books. why they made it the most leathal of things here is beyond me. "teleport in to the walmart of doom, find your self in the back rooms"

**leopard**

the bigger titans look a lot more robust and scary, not going to be scoring points but can certainly deny some

disappointment was the Baneblade, its no more robust than a Malcador, which feels wrong

**ashlevrier**

leopard wrote:
I think the thunderhawk could make a good, if expensive, "Apache longbow"

i think anything with hover can do the pop up attack. but the thunder has that 40 inch range laser

**westiebestie**

Agree with C, Reavers are strong, long range Reavers deleting a structure at will in one turn scares you away from garrisoning. This is at 1500. At 2000+ And with more counters it might be different.

Warp missile we are not playing cause they are broken. We currently expect to limit them to 0-1 per army and assign them a point cost, later on..

Warlords+ I expect to dominate at 2000-2500 currently, we'll see.

ashlevrier wrote:

-Going overly aggressive to score VPs turn 1 is punished by Divide & Conquer.

Every time i play aggressive i win. but so far you have only played marine vs marine. as i am one of two marine players in the group and everyone else is aux. i have sean both armys be played. establishing board control and forcing the other guy into his corner or deployment zone so i can hold the objectives is for now the winning strate.

Opposite experience for me, only Astartes at my club. All are pretty experienced alt activation players and tactically shrewd, so dont fall for e.g partial rushes. Just playing the long game of divide & conquering the aggressive parts of the enemy army first, and thenoutscoring turns 3-5 has worked so far. Yet to face a full rush air cav, the most so far have been 1 Thawk + 2 Eagles worth of Terminators, Ass Marines supported by 16 rushing Dreads at 1500, with the rest of his army coming in transports behind. Overwatch and AA is pretty decent if positioning well. Sicarans do work. My counterchargers handle the rest, then I can deep strike behind their front portions and start to counter.

When I get to face SA I plan to go very aggressive, both as they are better at long range, weak on AA and weak on RoF so weak on Overwatch given everyone and their mother seem to be going only max Vanquisher Cannons currently.

People also tend to miss the humble Heavy Bolter, maxing Lascannons. That 5+ Overwatch does a difference.

**tneva82**

Trust you remember warp missile errata?

Played game today and damn got to be careful of going to building with acastus around...4 shots -4 hitting on 2+...

Losing 10/13 infantry before able to shoot missiles into his infantry in building hurt.

Thankfully he was so focused on killing thunderhawks and reaver my armoured company after 2 turns was at full strength.

**leopard**

ashlevrier wrote:
leopard wrote:
I think the thunderhawk could make a good, if expensive, "Apache longbow"

i think anything with hover can do the pop up attack. but the thunder has that 40 inch range laser

have to say the very best counter to something like that is an army lacking large high value targets

**westiebestie**

tneva82 wrote:
Trust you remember warp missile errata?

Played game today and damn got to be careful of going to building with acastus around...4 shots -4 hitting on 2+...

Yup, its nerfed vs Titans but still deletes any detachment on 2+. Baneblades, Kratos, coming Fellblades etc. Bye bye. Too good in our opinion.

Yup, Reavers and Acastus mean building denial.

**The_Real_Chris**

ashlevrier wrote:
i lost a full unit of terminators because they scattered into a building.

Stick to teleporting into spacehulk corridors, far safer