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How have you assigned the support infantry?

I’ve specialised a Troops with 6 Heavy stands, and another with 6 Plasma Stands.

I think there may be some merit to mixing them up for “kill a bit of everything”, and certainly that’s easily enough done later. But for now, I think specialising is the order of the day.

 Pacific wrote:
A photo I yanked from FB of someone playing 3k points. The tank parking lots in FoW and Team Yankee used to annoy me a bit, but this takes it to another level. I know we are dealing with fantasy concepts of super humans fighting thirty thousand years in the future, but this still tramples the suspension of disbelief bit for me, which it will do for anyone with even a passing acquaintance with real-life military history.

Spoiler:

It will be interesting what other big-points units come along to soak up some of those 3k points, I guess units moving on via drop-pod (or in reserve) will also help with the cramming of miniatures. Or the game just ends up settling on 2k as a standard. Or, I might just be making more of a fuss than is needed and this doesn't bother most people!



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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Really must seek a buyer for my Solar Auxilia half.

Ideally Swapsies, but probably missed the boat on that one 🤣🤣

If you try either the Middlehammer or Epic 30k Legions Imperialis FB groups you will probably find someone who wants to swap, there are still some posters on there asking that sort of thing.

i used to think the FoW car parks was so dumb and unrealistic. till i saw ukraine. some times i looks like a flames of war game.


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leopard wrote:
infantry, in terms of how many points each wound costs, are the best thing out there

they may die easily, but do you have enough bullets to get all of them?

infantry suck in small numbers with a few exceptions, e.g. marine heavy support bods in a building will do work, but to advance you need a lot, it means several large units advancing as a wave, dilute enemy firepower, with your own long range stuff supporting

its basically WW2 tactics, having run large infantry formations I smiled when facing tanks, they simply lack the rate of fire to splat enough infantry to stop them

but you need a lot, as in "I can take your P75 output for two turns and still have enough bodies"

and by that I mean I can take notably above the average damage result, the result you only have a 25% chance of exceeding.

say if you have four shots, that will likely do three hits, that means I need to be able to take six hits and still have enough to kill you

a pair of sicaran are 105 points, assume loaded for little guys so AC/HB, 5 shots, on a 5+, assume 3.5 hits, so seven hits, half with AP-1. facing Auxilia thats likely seven kills

for the same points I get 16 las-rifle stands, or any of the similar cost infantry upgrades

for good output you will break them, but not kill them, on average they will probably have a few more stands survive, assuming you went HB not LC on the sides.

but its a seriously large unit, which short of printing not many people will have access to, especially since you really need to be running them in triples, and probably two triples, which is still only a bit over 600 points, to which the support axe lunatics and commanders need to be added so maybe a 750 point pair of formations, thats a lot of bodies. especially with someone aggressive, march orders first turn, then charge orders if they get close

will take luck to stop, or a specific anti infantry load out

and thats probably less than half the SA army, so it can bring a brick of tank hunters as well

this is where the marines or the other Aux player needs to target and kill the aux command. Aux have weak leadership.

i have faced the large boddys of dudes you are talking about. my Sics and Kratos have heavy bolters. with 4 sics i killed all but one charging Oger out of 12. when the axe men charged the heavy tanks fired overwatch and killed all 12. also dreads and Rhinos are also good at overwatch. because you can say "i overwatch fire when you are at 2 inches from me. double the shots ouf of the unit firing. 10 Rhinos on overwatch is a scary wall of fire for infantry.

my preds all have las i keep them at the back to deal with tanks. my infantry lead the way mounted in Rhinos. march the transports 18 inches. advance the troops inside thats 5 inches. if i reall need to get there. march the dudes inside for 15 inches instead.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How have you assigned the support infantry?

I’ve specialised a Troops with 6 Heavy stands, and another with 6 Plasma Stands.

I think there may be some merit to mixing them up for “kill a bit of everything”, and certainly that’s easily enough done later. But for now, I think specialising is the order of the day.

i run the heavy weapons in a unit of tacs and i do the same for the useless plasma. that way bolter bots can take the hits and the heavy weapons can still live to shoot stuff. i like to run at least two units of 12 stands each. the blob of infantry will take all objectives.

tneva82 wrote:


Funnily got box yesterday. Add that and its 250 pts ally det(bit more if i take sentinels) with 2 plane wings to carry units to grab lone objectives plus 4 stands left to slog.

Tasty.

Sounds good. I think we'll mostly use the models in Horizon Wars, but I can see us giving Legions another try at some point.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How have you assigned the support infantry?

I’ve specialised a Troops with 6 Heavy stands, and another with 6 Plasma Stands.

I think there may be some merit to mixing them up for “kill a bit of everything”, and certainly that’s easily enough done later. But for now, I think specialising is the order of the day.

Plasma is just worse than missile unfortunately, and missile is very very very good. I have two plasma bases, and no real plans for more than 2 more. Missiles on the other hand, are just insanely good, 8 bases for 70pts have the same firepower minus the multilaser as the solar aux heavy sentinels and are quite at home in a structure.

fair few locally are running "all plasma troops are actually missile troops"

and yes target the detachment with the SA command is viable, it can be mitigated by taking say three formations instead of two, each of two detachments instead of three - however it gets more expensive with the support choices required and means lower break points

they are largely crippled by being forced onto advance orders though

 ashlevrier wrote:


i have faced the large boddys of dudes you are talking about. my Sics and Kratos have heavy bolters. with 4 sics i killed all but one charging Oger out of 12. when the axe men charged the heavy tanks fired overwatch and killed all 12. also dreads and Rhinos are also good at overwatch. because you can say "i overwatch fire when you are at 2 inches from me. double the shots ouf of the unit firing. 10 Rhinos on overwatch is a scary wall of fire for infantry.
.

You are overwatching 1 det though. Wall of infantry comes with multiples. With maybe some rhino's spread around. Those charge and you get pinned so infantry is safe from shooting.

Also 6 sicarans. Average 11 hits. Let's say 1 6+ save. 10 dead. Det 245.

Full 16 strong detachment 105. You kill 4 lasrifles and 6 las/flamer/axe. Leaves 6 axe's charging in.

And that's for half the cost.

Don't underestimate infantry. And I wouldn't be surprised if # of real heavy infantry armies haven't been tested. At this point 3d printing most likely solution(kind of tempted to proxy with cardboard "bases" to be honest)

Well I can say that, infantry aren't terribly fun to build, especially if 3d printed. It's not only boring clipping supports but anxiety inducing because some of the aux models are very easy to damage with clippers.

Add to that, the infantry bases are more fiddly to interact with over the vehicles. I'm also far less afraid of dropping a vehicle than an infantry base. My first instinct is to try and find some clear or thin movement trays to help speed play up if needed.

Infantry are indeed strong because combat is so brutal. I think rend needs a baby brother special rule that's about half as potent, think extra D3 instead of D6, You still have infantry with rend like veletari and ogryns that are perhaps a bit too strong. I can't help but feel like for how slow and detailed the combat process is, it's really lacking in interesting interaction. By defaulting to neither side getting saves, basically both sides causing just enough ap for saves to be irrelevant, they wanted all infantry to be able to hurt tanks and vehicles up close, which is fine. The problem is it doesn't leave room for much nuance or specialty. I get not making everyone buy krak grenades but defaulting to melta-bombs that are also power weapons for everyone seems a bit much. It leaves you wondering why terminators and contemptors feels so weak in combat vs veletari and ogryns.

Infantry are good but I get sick of the lack of options, I don't want my army to be a sea of charonite ogryns, so I run some with proxies making them look like rough riders on mukaali. Problem there is the look a bit silly occupying a structure. The ratios players are able to field infantry in are also a bit all over considering even multiple infantry boxes still limit the better units and also sorta burden players with less than ideal units. Where as again on the 3d side, its very easy sadly for the brrr to really affect what a player is able to put down. Very easy to max out only the better infantry and not even have to deal with the others other than buy in for formations.

tneva82 wrote:

 ashlevrier wrote:


i have faced the large boddys of dudes you are talking about. my Sics and Kratos have heavy bolters. with 4 sics i killed all but one charging Oger out of 12. when the axe men charged the heavy tanks fired overwatch and killed all 12. also dreads and Rhinos are also good at overwatch. because you can say "i overwatch fire when you are at 2 inches from me. double the shots ouf of the unit firing. 10 Rhinos on overwatch is a scary wall of fire for infantry.
.

You are overwatching 1 det though. Wall of infantry comes with multiples. With maybe some rhino's spread around. Those charge and you get pinned so infantry is safe from shooting.

Also 6 sicarans. Average 11 hits. Let's say 1 6+ save. 10 dead. Det 245.

Full 16 strong detachment 105. You kill 4 lasrifles and 6 las/flamer/axe. Leaves 6 axe's charging in.

And that's for half the cost.

Don't underestimate infantry. And I wouldn't be surprised if # of real heavy infantry armies haven't been tested. At this point 3d printing most likely solution(kind of tempted to proxy with cardboard "bases" to be honest)

if i was underestimating infantry i A would not be putting heavy bolters on all the tanks. B running 12 stands of infantry with APC support to wipe out and provide overwatch for my own infantry.

i dont care for math hammer. because math hammer can fail to account for what the situation is really like. the unit overwatching does not need to be the one getting charged. lets say you charged a unit of tanks A. unit of tanks B fires overwatch. later unit A just drives away form the fight because they have not activated yet and they fire there weapons during the advance stage of the turn. or lets say unit A is a unit of 12 infantry. now its 12 to 6. your going to die. even with rend every second one of my guys gets to swing 3 dice just like you.


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i also forgot to add. you rolled a 1 for your moral after taking over 50% losses. your charge has failed and your order token was replaced with a fall back token

infantry lists with mechanics like this are always a dice game, but can easily have the odds in their favour

you deal with them by having some infantry to screen your tanks, infantry they have to get through to get to the objective

Quick question:

I read a suggestion from a poster a few posts prior recommending a few house rules, one of which was Gone To Ground. (I believe it was taken from FoW)

Would template weapons/blasts allow Infantry to gain a -1 to be hit when the Infantry remove their Order counter and Go to Ground? (I'm thinking that Infantry would NOT get a -1 against template weapons, but that's applying modern physics and not "40K/30K" universe physics)

Thus, an Infantry stand Goes to Ground, gains a -1 to be hit. Can they claim the -1 GtG modifier against template weapons???

 ashlevrier wrote:

i also forgot to add. you rolled a 1 for your moral after taking over 50% losses. your charge has failed and your order token was replaced with a fall back token

Brave assume i roll 1 and not 4 5 6. But that's why i send in 2 det's i assume 1 dies.

Or even better go msu. Rather than 2 det send in 8. Your overwatch kills less than half of what it could.

You assume infantry weak but has anybody really faced 170+ list at 2k? Even better 250+ if one doesn't go for token tanks.

have run infantry in WW2 games I have seen generally the only thing that actually stops them tends to be more infantry - of course you need less to stop them as you are not taking losses while advancing etc

it is tempting to find some suitable Auxilia files and go, already have MK V and MK III files for marines.

suspect it will be glorious, but not something to do too often, just something to let an opponent know they may end up facing, or maybe they will face every Vanquisher ever made

comes back to a point made earlier, slew lists break games

Well so far people tend to take anti-armour skew lists. I want myself infantry horde to scare people to take more balanced list that isn't throwing armourbane everywhere

tneva82 wrote:
Well so far people tend to take anti-armour skew lists. I want myself infantry horde to scare people to take more balanced list that isn't throwing armourbane everywhere

strangely enough this is exactly why my WW2 German flames list was grenadiers, with zero armour, and I also have a Soviet Strelkovy infantry force, again zero armour. people tend to look at both and go "oh" as their list designed to fight panthers etc now has a slight problem

and when I noted people bringing a hell of a lot of machine guns and mortars but not much else.. well thats when the Tigers came out to play

LordBlunt wrote:
Quick question:

I read a suggestion from a poster a few posts prior recommending a few house rules, one of which was Gone To Ground. (I believe it was taken from FoW)

Would template weapons/blasts allow Infantry to gain a -1 to be hit when the Infantry remove their Order counter and Go to Ground? (I'm thinking that Infantry would NOT get a -1 against template weapons, but that's applying modern physics and not "40K/30K" universe physics)

Thus, an Infantry stand Goes to Ground, gains a -1 to be hit. Can they claim the -1 GtG modifier against template weapons???

I would say for simplicity yes, the -1 would be against everything that doesn't have the no cover rule. If you really want to go more punitive, say the whole detachment fights at -1 to their caf roll or something. so going to ground isn't just losing their order but also potentially doing worse if assaulted. Just a thought, I don't even think it needs the second part as basically taking a units ability to activate/shoot/overwatch is already pretty big.

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well so far people tend to take anti-armour skew lists. I want myself infantry horde to scare people to take more balanced list that isn't throwing armourbane everywhere

strangely enough this is exactly why my WW2 German flames list was grenadiers, with zero armour, and I also have a Soviet Strelkovy infantry force, again zero armour. people tend to look at both and go "oh" as their list designed to fight panthers etc now has a slight problem

and when I noted people bringing a hell of a lot of machine guns and mortars but not much else.. well thats when the Tigers came out to play

The big disparity in list archetypes for LI are pretty easy to explain:

-marine infantry have wonky details/marine tanks have really nice details
-its way faster to build and paint vehicle boxes to completion compared to infantry
-vehicle detachments tend to give a more immediate impact for their box price than infantry
-infantry boxes have a really discouraging mix of support units, preventing mass missiles/assaults/terminators in the same was as preds/kratos
-legacy ai/at collections

Let's be real in that it's mostly a combination of the second, fourth, and fifth points, and especially the AI planes. The amount of posts I've seen on Facebook of low point starter games with like, 3-6 planes in them is unreal. I think I even saw one today of 600 points with 3 xiphon in it.

Infantry heavy can really skunk things if you don't respect it, with the sheer damage you can get from missiles, aggression from assaults and terminators, or just presence from rhino tacs (to say nothing of solar aux melee DPS). But you can also gun down mass infantry with ease when you take a lot of the infantry support stuff like rapiers, missiles and rhinos.

Yes definitely, speed and ease of painting is part of why you will see more tanks than infantry at the moment - especially as we are barely 2 months into release and people are still getting their stuff together.

I haven't played in a few years but you always used to see a lot more tank and armoured companies in FoW as painting infantry companies takes loads more time - although I would argue painting infantry at 8mm is easier than 15mm as for the most part you don't have the details to pick out.

I find tanks slower to paint to complete state than infantry though.

Easier to get playable though as infantry needs paint first before basing. Grey tanks can be played with easier than empty base.

8mm SA infantry is a lot easier to paint that 15mm Soviet, though to be honest I found painting the damned based (urban rubble theme for Stalingrad) took longer than the actual infantry - and thats with all colours as three layer

it is though, apparently, why Flames 4 is rubbish compared to Flames 3, the focus moved from infantry & combined arms to armour as "thats easier to paint" and they thought it would bring in more players

personally I have found the GW Solar aux infantry a doddle to paint, small enough that a spray base, wash with thinned earthshade then a couple of contrasts and a drybrush is plenty.

it helps the SA box has a much more sensible mix of models, to the point the marine box really is actually quite bad and should have been two boxes - have the starter box be tacticals and then one of the support, heavy, assault or terminator - and have the rest in another box so you get usable quantities of stuff

The reason flames 4 moved to focusing on tanks is because tank kits is where battlefront makes its money. It's what players find cool, not little man-shaped blobs of metal. They've been investing into plastic infantry in the hopes the improved detail generates more interest in infantry from customers as the details improve

chaos0xomega wrote:
The reason flames 4 moved to focusing on tanks is because tank kits is where battlefront makes its money. It's what players find cool, not little man-shaped blobs of metal. They've been investing into plastic infantry in the hopes the improved detail generates more interest in infantry from customers as the details improve

plastic they did for "open fire" for the infantry was very good, the less said about their resin faceless horde the better, at least thats a mistake GW haven't made

Facebook post i read mentioned capitol imperialis. Got myself curious and calculated size. If gw does it in titan's scale it's 30cm long. If in infantry scale 36cm...

Will that be equilavent of 40k plastic thunderhawk

guessing that will be slightly rescaled... could still be 40k rhino sized though

The infantry and the titans are in the sane scale.

Trouble with the Capitol Imperialis is traditionally, it’s not been great in combat.

It looks sweet, and everyone loves a mobile command centre. But for combat? You want a Leviathan.

agreed on that, it was a transport, with decent protection and a decent long ranged gun, and some close in defences, but it wasn't a battle fortress

epic model though

chaos0xomega wrote:
The infantry and the titans are in the sane scale.

Nope. When you measure titans and infantry and calculate you will find that infantry is 1:220. Titans 1:269.

We know size of things in fluff(warlord 33m tall, non-primaris marines 2.1m). We have tools to measure models and then it's simple calculation(can even calculate it in head but if you don't want to do trivial math calculator helps).

There's no point to arque gw didn't change scale since at. We even have designer of warlord saying they sized it so that marines would be 8mm(which would mean scale isn't 8mm). Incidentally marine at 1:269 scale would be...7.8mm....

Math doesn't lie and it's easy enought to prove titans are 1:269 scale and if infantry was so solar auxilia wouldn't be 8mm, marines wouldn't be 10mm. It would be 6.5mm and 7.8mm instead.

keeping in mind the "fluff" height of titans is something of a variable feast over the years I run with "so long as it looks good", and they are impressive compared to the infantry without being impractically large so I'm happy

IIRC even in 1st the scale wasn't consistent, though the Hellbore and Capitol Imperialis were massive neither was large enough for what it was clamed to do

the Leviathan when that came out looked like a cute little baby thing next to it - by which point GW had given up all pretence of having a scale for this

Sorry tneva. The sculptors and designers say they are in the same scale, therefore they are in the same scale.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble with the Capitol Imperialis is traditionally, it’s not been great in combat.

It looks sweet, and everyone loves a mobile command centre. But for combat? You want a Leviathan.

It's a cool scenery centerpiece, more than anything else.


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tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The infantry and the titans are in the sane scale.

Nope. When you measure titans and infantry and calculate you will find that infantry is 1:220. Titans 1:269.

We know size of things in fluff(warlord 33m tall, non-primaris marines 2.1m). We have tools to measure models and then it's simple calculation(can even calculate it in head but if you don't want to do trivial math calculator helps).

There's no point to arque gw didn't change scale since at. We even have designer of warlord saying they sized it so that marines would be 8mm(which would mean scale isn't 8mm). Incidentally marine at 1:269 scale would be...7.8mm....

Math doesn't lie and it's easy enought to prove titans are 1:269 scale and if infantry was so solar auxilia wouldn't be 8mm, marines wouldn't be 10mm. It would be 6.5mm and 7.8mm instead.

So AT titans are not 25% the size of 40k titans? Because AFAIK, that's what the AT/AI/Legions scale is, not really any "X mm".