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They are. All models are 25% of their full size scalings. Tneva is basing his tenuous arguments based on references to supposed fluff heights which have never really been accurate to begin with

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The infantry and the titans are in the sane scale.

Nope. When you measure titans and infantry and calculate you will find that infantry is 1:220. Titans 1:269.

We know size of things in fluff(warlord 33m tall, non-primaris marines 2.1m). We have tools to measure models and then it's simple calculation(can even calculate it in head but if you don't want to do trivial math calculator helps).

There's no point to arque gw didn't change scale since at. We even have designer of warlord saying they sized it so that marines would be 8mm(which would mean scale isn't 8mm). Incidentally marine at 1:269 scale would be...7.8mm....

Math doesn't lie and it's easy enought to prove titans are 1:269 scale and if infantry was so solar auxilia wouldn't be 8mm, marines wouldn't be 10mm. It would be 6.5mm and 7.8mm instead.

sorry but according to the company they are all to scale.

Well, change the complaint to "FW model schematics are horsegak" then?

chaos0xomega wrote:
They are. All models are 25% of their full size scalings. Tneva is basing his tenuous arguments based on references to supposed fluff heights which have never really been accurate to begin with

No. I'm basing it on MATH. You do know we have fluff sizes and measuring tools? And even calculators if math in head is too hard.

BTW there's nothing that stops infantry and titans being different scale and legions being 25% of 40k being incompatible...It just means 40k titans are different scale than 40k infantry. Seeing how bad GW is with scales that's not even that unlikely..But since I don't have 40k titan in neutral standing position at hand(just see their euro cost...).

I do have legion scale titan though. And I have measuring tool. And I have read how tall warlord titan is. And I have graduated finnish school system.

Oh and we also have designer of adeptus titanicus warlord say size was so that marines are 8mm Which incidentally fits with titans being 1:269 scale.

It's really embarrassing to claim they are in same scale when math is showing and we have guy who designed the titan revealing what scale titans were made for. Marine 8mn, Which is pretty much spot on 1:269.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ashlevrier wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The infantry and the titans are in the sane scale.

Nope. When you measure titans and infantry and calculate you will find that infantry is 1:220. Titans 1:269.

We know size of things in fluff(warlord 33m tall, non-primaris marines 2.1m). We have tools to measure models and then it's simple calculation(can even calculate it in head but if you don't want to do trivial math calculator helps).

There's no point to arque gw didn't change scale since at. We even have designer of warlord saying they sized it so that marines would be 8mm(which would mean scale isn't 8mm). Incidentally marine at 1:269 scale would be...7.8mm....

Math doesn't lie and it's easy enought to prove titans are 1:269 scale and if infantry was so solar auxilia wouldn't be 8mm, marines wouldn't be 10mm. It would be 6.5mm and 7.8mm instead.

sorry but according to the company they are all to scale.

Nope.

Warlord designer said 8mm for marines.

Which is 1:269. Which is not what legions infantry is. Plans changed.

It's really bad idea to arque something that elementary school kid can prove by easy simple math...Never try to claim something that is trivially proven false. It's embarrassing.

We have GW saying it's 1/4 of 40k scale but that doesn't actually contradict. 40k model scales are not exactly consistent so it just means infantry and titan scales are different in 40k as well. Have you ever measured 40k models? The scale is all over the place...

(btw reminder. 32mm, 6mm etc those are not scales. 1:X is scale)

But gents.

Importantly?

It doesn’t matter. Can’t say it matter. Don’t really matter. It doesn’t matter.

To get properly back on topic?

GW really need to get the next wave out, and get the already released stuff properly in circulation.

It’s clearly selling for now, but if release and stock are stymied, you’re preventing the game’s overall growth.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


GW really need to get the next wave out, and get the already released stuff properly in circulation.

It’s clearly selling for now, but if release and stock are stymied, you’re preventing the game’s overall growth.

And that's the interesting paradox with 3d printer going brrr, it's doing a lot to help the game's growth. And clearly can't be affected demand given gw's supply is already constantly being exhausted.

Whilst not expecting or intending to persuade either side of that fence? And certainly not going to bother anyone with moralistic arguments…

I’m yet to see evidence 3D Printing is a particular issue for GW. I mean, people absolutely are making use of that tech for that purpose, and depending on their knowledge and competence with it getting on fine.

But I still think the evidence points to a firm majority happy to buy off the peg. Though if GW don’t get supply lines sorted, they are just handing impetus to that hobby.

Me? I’ll be sticking with off the peg. But you, Dear Dakkanaut reading this with thine own eyes? You do you!

tneva82 wrote:
words

Dunno what to tell you, except that you're wrong. The guys that sculpted it said they are in the same scale, therefore they are the same scale. The AT/LI warlord titan is 1/4 of its 40k counterpart, LI space marines are 1/4 of their full scale counterparts. GW pretends that all its full-size models are in the same consistent scale as well. Ergo, everything is the same size.

Also, the warlord designer did *not* say 8mm tall marines, if they did then that was removed in a subsequent edit of warhammer community, because theres no evidence of it there. Warcom itself has referred to LI and AT as being "8mm scale" on multiple occasions, including here:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/8th-aug-adeptus-titanicus-war-on-a-new-scalegw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-1/

"Chris Drew from the Specialist Games team is the man responsible for turning the huge Warhammer 40,000 models into their 8mm scale counterparts – and here he is to talk about the process."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/04/warhammmer-community-team-liveblog/

"The Specialist Games team ran a special preview participation game of the forthcoming Adeptus Titanicus here at the hotel last night. They used Warhammer 40,000 Titans to stand in for the 8mm scale versions the game itself will use."

It doesn’t matter.

Really. It doesn’t.

All that matters is the game is fun to play, and I maintain my Hobby Streak as a result of shiny tiny being released.

You're right, it really doesn't matter.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whilst not expecting or intending to persuade either side of that fence? And certainly not going to bother anyone with moralistic arguments…

I’m yet to see evidence 3D Printing is a particular issue for GW. I mean, people absolutely are making use of that tech for that purpose, and depending on their knowledge and competence with it getting on fine.

I agree, I would be very, very surprised if 3d printing prevented even 1% of GWs sales of Legions. Even the people I know of who are Epic die-hards and been in the community for years, have tons of classic, proxy and printed minis, are still buying stuff (often in large quantities!)

The biggest barrier I can see to the success of the game are stock availability (great sign that it seems to be constantly sold out), and the game rulebook being an utterly turgid affair, possibly one of the most dull rulebooks I have ever read (and I say this as someone who *loves* Epic). So the game is going to rely on a strong demo network of people into the game, and who give 'casual' players a demo of the game without them being given a look at the rulebook, lest they slip into a coma.

I don't think 3d printing is preventing sales, those who print wouldn't have bought anyway in most cases.

for me its a mix, the SA infantry will be bought, the box has decent contents and its all very usable, I could probably print for less but they are fiddly so I prefer not to

for marines, well the Mk V stuff I have is nice, and have grabbed some Mk III which I like. most of the armour is printed as I'm not paying that price for Rhinos and the other stuff is basically out of stock anyway

so 'meah'

but being able to have games is driving more to get the starter, or try to, and get those who have it to get it on the table and play it

its a cracking game, not perfect, but its fun

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whilst not expecting or intending to persuade either side of that fence? And certainly not going to bother anyone with moralistic arguments…

I’m yet to see evidence 3D Printing is a particular issue for GW. I mean, people absolutely are making use of that tech for that purpose, and depending on their knowledge and competence with it getting on fine.

I agree, I would be very, very surprised if 3d printing prevented even 1% of GWs sales of Legions. Even the people I know of who are Epic die-hards and been in the community for years, have tons of classic, proxy and printed minis, are still buying stuff (often in large quantities!)

The biggest barrier I can see to the success of the game are stock availability (great sign that it seems to be constantly sold out), and the game rulebook being an utterly turgid affair, possibly one of the most dull rulebooks I have ever read (and I say this as someone who *loves* Epic). So the game is going to rely on a strong demo network of people into the game, and who give 'casual' players a demo of the game without them being given a look at the rulebook, lest they slip into a coma.

Biggest factor for me playing outside the basement is stores having nice small scale terrain. I think that's the catch 22 as most options from gw are sold out, there are wonderful third party options but largely require printing so puts stores in an awkward sport, I think the easiest solution to at least get the ball rolling is the paper hawk wargames cityscape boxes. Even 2 of those would be enough for a store to host some epic gaming.

The problem with titanicus was even if stores had room for the sideboard required. it was a big ask to have to also bring appropriate terrain, so that locally was a big barrier. I also understand a stores reluctance to have small scale terrain because its often very expensive for its size and much easier for someone to pocket than a big 28mm ruin.

If it can get over the niche it stands a good chance of remaining popular. The demand is certainly there for now.

Sorry if this seems Weasel Words on my “no 3d, not for me, thank you please” approach?

But terrain is entirely fair game for me. Yes GW’s kits exist. And they’re nice. And for the amount you get not insanely priced. But terrain is terrain is terrain.

GW branded, otherwise shop bought, scratch made or 3d printed*, it’s all fair game to me. All that matters is it’s in proper scale and painted to a reasonable standard, and in sufficient quantity to make the game interesting.


*unless it’s 3d print copies of any commercially available kits, in which case you’re not a tech maverick, you’re a thievey little cheap skate and get in the bin.

keep in mind that unless you actually play in a GW shop, where they may have terrain, or at a shop that has a "you buy it here or bugger off" policy where you get stuff from basically doesn't matter any more than you and your opponent want it to matter

there is plenty out there that will do the job

indeed once you step outside the world of GW games the idea that you *must* use terrain made by the games creators is basically laughable

leopard wrote:
keep in mind that unless you actually play in a GW shop, where they may have terrain, or at a shop that has a "you buy it here or bugger off" policy where you get stuff from basically doesn't matter any more than you and your opponent want it to matter

there is plenty out there that will do the job

indeed once you step outside the world of GW games the idea that you *must* use terrain made by the games creators is basically laughable

No but if it's a store that tends to chase of people using 3d miniatures it's odd to give 3d printed terrain a pass. I really wish more were going the other way and showrooming terrain they can print on demand, but don't see many shops doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry if this seems Weasel Words on my “no 3d, not for me, thank you please” approach?

But terrain is entirely fair game for me. Yes GW’s kits exist. And they’re nice. And for the amount you get not insanely priced. But terrain is terrain is terrain.

GW branded, otherwise shop bought, scratch made or 3d printed*, it’s all fair game to me. All that matters is it’s in proper scale and painted to a reasonable standard, and in sufficient quantity to make the game interesting.


*unless it’s 3d print copies of any commercially available kits, in which case you’re not a tech maverick, you’re a thievey little cheap skate and get in the bin.

Well there's crossover that blurs the line as well, like hybrid gw plastic and 3d printed resin kits.

one of the local shops near here is considering adding a couple of 3d printers themselves and selling (licensed) prints, the bulk of their terrain is 3d printed and they seem to be going down the "if you cannot beat them, join them" route with a print on demand service

For me it depends what do they actually sell.

If they don’t stock terrain kits (perhaps due to difficulties sourcing stock, or limited shelf space), then “no you can’t use 3d prints” isn’t really justifiable, as it’s not hitting them for potential sales.

But if they do sell terrain (GW, MDF, other) then of course that argument then starts to hold water.

Then there’s the consideration of why GW and FLGS encourage in-store gaming. And that of course is…free advertising!! Look at the people playing. What are they playing? I dunno, but they sure seem to be having fun doing so. Man those models look pretty. Oh you paint them yourself? That’s kinda cool and so on and so forth.

Terrain is part of that visual experience. And an integral one at that.

For me, I guess that provided theyre not knock-offs off a commercially available design*, using a 3D Printer is just another version of Scatch Built terrain, with the added bonus that once you’re a dab hand with the printer, it’s gonna look great painted, and probably be more resilient to being packed and unpacked for a game.


*I’ll let each draw their own line on when a kit is a knock-off and when it’s simply copying a certain overall aesthetic, because to do otherwise is fruitless. But certainly “I scanned in a GW piece and now I print 1:1 copies is not something I’ll ever agree with.

I'm pretty lucky that my FLGS is really good for stocking terrain for loads of different game types, if a few people coming in to play have an interest in the game usually the owners will put some terrain together for it.
So they've already got a bunch of Adeptus Titanicus terrain and I'm guessing they'll add some scatter terrain and other bits for this

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m yet to see evidence 3D Printing is a particular issue for GW.

Of course it's not an issue. Like all piracy (and like other forms of proxying in the case of miniatures games) it's free advertising and grows your ecosystem. And for LI specifically, right now, a printed army isn't even a lost sale as the line is out of stock everywhere anyway. A printed army is a retained player that otherwise might have lost interest in the game entirely by the time they could buy official minis, and so might his friend who bought the first wave but has nobody to play with.

This kind of made me laugh reading some of the special rules this morning. The Independent rule in Legions vs. the same rule in Epic SM2 (this is a copy from NetEpic, which is more or less the same although actually wordier than the original rule in SM2!)
These are what those dozens of 'Lean Methodologies' courses you seem to get on LinkedIn are obviously for! Jesus wept.

SM2 rule:


Legions rule:

...good golly

Yeah and what's amazing is they can take two pages to say stuff that might take a couple paragraphs, but nowhere in the book do they even touch on the fundamentals of how or where to draw line of sight from or even height.

So played a game last night where we limited overwatch to first fire only (with the exception of weapons with point defense) and it played a lot better and made a lot more sense. One thing it cut down on a bit was units dump firing overwatch at planes. It also saw more detachment on both sides actually use the first fire order, which in our past games has been quite rare.

 Crablezworth wrote:
So played a game last night where we limited overwatch to first fire only (with the exception of weapons with point defense) and it played a lot better and made a lot more sense. One thing it cut down on a bit was units dump firing overwatch at planes. It also saw more detachment on both sides actually use the first fire order, which in our past games has been quite rare.

Noted! going to use that too.

Also, in order to keep things simple, instead of suggesting a slight change in cover rules and/or to hit rules (-> 6s not always hit), I am going to suggest to use all saves available to a model, instead of choosing just one (that will reduce lethality).

seem to remember 1st Edition had the "snap fire" mechanic limited to units of first fire.

I think it would work to allow a unit on advance orders that is itself charged to fire at the unit charging it, but otherwise limit reaction fire to first fire orders

Allowing some sort of snap-fire mechanic on Advance order is a really interesting design decision, in that it swerves away from the prior game to only allow that on First Fire.

One of the main purposes of secret orders is the risk/reward component of how you are going to activate and move your troops. Do you sit still and fire, meaning you will be out of position and range with no targets? Do you advance, which gives you the opportunity to shoot later on but puts you at risk of being charged by an opportunistic charging opponent? There won't be one person who played Epic that didn't have the stomach sinking realisation of moving a tank unit forward only to leave them exposed to a charge, and there is nothing you can do about it.

So that has taken away a big part of the risk/reward mechanic of choosing between FF and advance. I wonder if during play testing, with the much larger move ranges this game has, they found units were just too exposed to charges and so had to give a snap-fire mechanic.

well initially you also had secret orders that were only exposed when the unit was selected to act

and charge movement before advance movement, still able to fire when charging, with a -1 and on first fire with a +1 etc

The problem is nothing in advance order even compels you to move anyway but nothing prevents you from staying still either, so why ever use first fire if advance is just better/more flexible.



There are 3 rules I can think of that either require the detachment not move or specifically in the case of 2 of them where the detachment must be on first fire order but sadly no units have weapons that use them yet. The weapon rules are: siege weapon/ripple fire/power capacitor.

Just feels like until more units have rules that benefit first fire in some way it will be quite rare.

have seen first fire quite a bit, any unit not planning to move tends to be on it here specifically so it can get its shots out nice and early