Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Are you feeling alright? Because you’re coming on a bit strong here.

My example isn’t “bs”, on account…I’ve correctly and directly quote the rule as it’s printed.

Full is not the defining term. Points Limit is.

Show us where it says the Points Limit of a game is based on what the player has actually spent. Because that is the core of your argument. And so far, it’s not supported by the rules.

What is full referring to then? The legate comander's ability to be taken is contingent upon having a FULL 1500 points. You have yet to show where that lets you take one in less than 1500 points, or why you could take 2 in less than 3k.

its all "points limit", doesn't even specify thats points spent on SA stuff

plenty of GW games have done this previously, you pick to play a 2,000 point game - you are playing a 2,000 point game, even if your army is 1,994 or whatever. that point total then sets stuff like the table size and various limits

e.g. go back to Warmaster, with lists that have min & max per 1,000 points, thats min & max per 1,000 of the game size

leopard wrote:
its all "points limit", doesn't even specify thats points spent on SA stuff

plenty of GW games have done this previously, you pick to play a 2,000 point game - you are playing a 2,000 point game, even if your army is 1,994 or whatever. that point total then sets stuff like the table size and various limits

e.g. go back to Warmaster, with lists that have min & max per 1,000 points, thats min & max per 1,000 of the game size

Quote where i can take a legate commander in a 1000 point limit game. I'll wait.

in a 1,000 point game you cannot, a 1,500 point game you can, even if the SA are an allied detachment using maybe 200 points.

you cannot take a second until the game goes to 3,000, and a third until 4,500

you don't have to spend all of your points but the limits key off how many you have to spend

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Are you feeling alright? Because you’re coming on a bit strong here.

My example isn’t “bs”, on account…I’ve correctly and directly quote the rule as it’s printed.

Full is not the defining term. Points Limit is.

Show us where it says the Points Limit of a game is based on what the player has actually spent. Because that is the core of your argument. And so far, it’s not supported by the rules.

What is full referring to then? The legate comander's ability to be taken is contingent upon having a FULL 1500 points. You have yet to show where that lets you take one in less than 1500 points.

I mentioned it earlier, but the thread has been active.

1 per full 1,500 points of the points limit is there to explain that it’s not per 1,500 or part thereof. Hence the examples essentially shake out to 1-1,499 points limit = No Legate allowed. 1,500 to 2,999 = max 1 Legate, 3,000-4,499 = max 2 Legate.

None of the examples make reference to the test being points spent. Only the points limit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:

leopard wrote:
its all "points limit", doesn't even specify thats points spent on SA stuff

plenty of GW games have done this previously, you pick to play a 2,000 point game - you are playing a 2,000 point game, even if your army is 1,994 or whatever. that point total then sets stuff like the table size and various limits

e.g. go back to Warmaster, with lists that have min & max per 1,000 points, thats min & max per 1,000 of the game size

Quote where i can take a legate commander in a 1000 point limit game. I'll wait.

Which nobody has argued? So I’m not sure what the relevance is here.

this is also why fantasy used to see a lot of "1,999+1" point games, so you had the limits as if 1,999 to stop extra rare slots, but you could still spend 2,000 points

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Which nobody has argued? So I’m not sure what the relevance is here.

Gaslight much?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
think Crablezworth is being a bit over literal.

Whilst they’ve clearly explained their thinking, as long as it’s a 1,500 point game? I’d be happy to see a Legate,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re placing your emphasis on the wrong part of the rule.

The inclusion of Full isn’t indicating “if you’ve not spent 1,500 points, no Legate for you”. Instead, it’s clarifying it’s not “per 1,500 or part thereof”. So at 2,000, still just the one.

But at all times, the wording couldn’t be clearer it’s the points limit that defines the entitlement.

You're agreeing with me...

The assesment of facebook is in their collective opinion you don't have to fill 1500 points, they're saying 1499 with legate is fine.

 Crablezworth wrote:

And how does an army add a legate if it's less than 1500 points? Oh right, it can't.

Yes. If point limit is less. You know. The thing you agree before single unit is added to roster as per page 126.

As you clearly haven't read that page yet go read it now. You embarass yourself less.

leopard wrote:
this is also why fantasy used to see a lot of "1,999+1" point games, so you had the limits as if 1,999 to stop extra rare slots, but you could still spend 2,000 points

Its not brilliant writing but it's also pretty clear you can't take a legate under 1500pts, people are arguing on facebook that you can. Which is just not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
You embarass yourself less.

I'm not the topic.

Reminds me of the time we had oral exams at uni and a classmate was adamant, standing at the blackboard, that the formula for table salt was HCl. The professor said "I know you're just having a brain fart right now, but I can't let you pass when you're saying this gak in front of 50 people"

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
Lol tneva doing an odd pairing of being embarrassingly wrong with almost every statement, while also going into weird diatribe personal attacks whenever crabz posts.

Literally just being a troll I guess?

@mad doc it says per full 1500 points of the points limit, which means the complete amount. Going by your interpretation "full" is meaningless in the sentence and could be removed without impacting the mechanic at all.

So if one interpretation uses the actual wording to derive the intended mechanics, and another interpretation doesn't rely on the wording, which is the more accurate interpretation? Its the former, at least in areas of law, statutory interpretation, and technical writing.

I keep asking people why full or what full means in the sentence and they can never seem to answer it because it destroys any nuance with incredible specificity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Reminds me of the time we had oral exams at uni and a classmate was adamant, standing at the blackboard, that the formula for table salt was HCl. The professor said "I know you're just having a brain fart right now, but I can't let you pass when you're saying this gak in front of 50 people"

Reminds me of the time I filled my gas tank, to the point where it was full, like, couldn't contain anymore gas. I then ordered a full large pizza and ate it, fully. To completion. You know, a subjective thing...

And I think you’re misunderstanding what our take on this is.

Army Size is defined, as per these rules, by the agreed points limit. With nothing to show it’s the points you actually spend in assembling said army.

If the agreed points limit is 1,499 or less? Nobody can take a Legate.

But if it’s 1,500-2,999? 1 Legate can be chosen, regardless of how many points the army actually tots up to, because that is not a relevant qualifier under the rules.

 Crablezworth wrote:
I keep asking people why full or what full means in the sentence and they can never seem to answer it because it destroys any nuance with incredible specificity.

Nah it's been explained to you plenty of times, you're literally having a full mental lock right now. You need to sleep this over and tomorrow we can pretend this never happened.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And I think you’re misunderstanding what our take on this is.

Army Size is defined, as per these rules, by the agreed points limit. With nothing to show it’s the points you actually spend in assembling said army.

If the agreed points limit is 1,499 or less? Nobody can take a Legate.

But if it’s 1,500-2,999? 1 Legate can be chosen, regardless of how many points the army actually tots up to, because that is not a relevant qualifier under the rules.

^^^^ this

and your army could be just the man himself and the other core stuff at minimum size

it will be a quick game

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And I think you’re misunderstanding what our take on this is.

Army Size is defined, as per these rules, by the agreed points limit. With nothing to show it’s the points you actually spend in assembling said army.

If the agreed points limit is 1,499 or less? Nobody can take a Legate.

But if it’s 1,500-2,999? 1 Legate can be chosen, regardless of how many points the army actually tots up to, because that is not a relevant qualifier under the rules.

I'm not sure what you're arguing then, we agree, you can't take a legate until the list is 1500 on the nose, not 1499.

"A Solar Auxillia force can include a maximum of 1 legate commander per FULL 1500 POINTS of the points limit

What does full refer to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I keep asking people why full or what full means in the sentence and they can never seem to answer it because it destroys any nuance with incredible specificity.

Nah it's been explained to you plenty of times, you're literally having a full mental lock right now. You need to sleep this over and tomorrow we can pretend this never happened.

I'm not the topic.

I'd say in this context this is saying take your points limit, divide it by 1,500, round the result down, thats how many you get to take

leopard wrote:
I'd say in this context this is saying take your points limit, divide it by 1,500, round the result down, thats how many you get to take

Yes and people on facebook are arguing you don't have to fill 1500 points to take the legate. They're arguing you can take it at 1499, for example. Which you can't.

 Crablezworth wrote:

leopard wrote:
I'd say in this context this is saying take your points limit, divide it by 1,500, round the result down, thats how many you get to take

Yes and people on facebook are arguing you don't have to fill 1500 points to take the legate. They're arguing you can take it at 1499, for example. Which you can't.

yes, however its the size of the game that matters, not the size of the army, a 1,500 point game can be played with 200 point armies if you want, I mean daft but its legal, nothing says you have to spend all your points. if you agreed a 1,499 point game then no, he stays at home

to be honest I really don't see whats meant to be unclear about this, the game has some funny rules but not sure this is one of them

what is the reasoning people are quoting?

leopard wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

leopard wrote:
I'd say in this context this is saying take your points limit, divide it by 1,500, round the result down, thats how many you get to take

Yes and people on facebook are arguing you don't have to fill 1500 points to take the legate. They're arguing you can take it at 1499, for example. Which you can't.

yes, however its the size of the game that matters, not the size of the army, a 1,500 point game can be played with 200 point armies if you want, I mean daft but its legal, nothing says you have to spend all your points. if you agreed a 1,499 point game then no, he stays at home

to be honest I really don't see whats meant to be unclear about this, the game has some funny rules but not sure this is one of them

what is the reasoning people are quoting?

That's irrelevant, I'm fully aware you can play any point level, that statement though doesn't mean at any point level you can play a legate commander, it needs to be 1500 or higher. This is not what facebook is arguing, they're arguing you can take a legate commander at 1499, which you can't. None of this has anything to do with the point level you choose to play outside of 1500 point increments, it has no effect on the set in stone requirements for fielding a legate until 1500 or more points worth is fielded.

 Crablezworth wrote:
I'm not the topic.

If you are convinced you are the only person in the world who is correct, are not able to accept rational arguments and are unwilling to answer counterpoints, then you are the topic, I'm afraid, because it's no longer an issue with the rules text.

Eh, I'm bowing out of this cringefest.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I'm not the topic.

If you are not able to accept rational arguments and are unwilling to answer counterpoints, then you are the topic, I'm afraid, because it's no longer an issue with the rules text.

Eh, I'm bowing out of this cringefest.

You haven't made any. Reported.

 Crablezworth wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

leopard wrote:
I'd say in this context this is saying take your points limit, divide it by 1,500, round the result down, thats how many you get to take

Yes and people on facebook are arguing you don't have to fill 1500 points to take the legate. They're arguing you can take it at 1499, for example. Which you can't.

yes, however its the size of the game that matters, not the size of the army, a 1,500 point game can be played with 200 point armies if you want, I mean daft but its legal, nothing says you have to spend all your points. if you agreed a 1,499 point game then no, he stays at home

to be honest I really don't see whats meant to be unclear about this, the game has some funny rules but not sure this is one of them

what is the reasoning people are quoting?

That's irrelevant, I'm fully aware you can play any point level, that statement though doesn't mean at any point level you can play a legate commander, it needs to be 1500 or higher. This is not what facebook is arguing, they're arguing you can take a legate commander at 1499, which you can't. None of this has anything to do with the point level you choose to play outside of 1500 point increments, it has no effect on the set in stone requirements for fielding a legate until 1500 or more points worth is fielded.

if you note I'm agreeing with you, I'm asking what reasoning people are using to say otherwise, I think the rule is very clear

for every 1,500 points in the size of game you have agreed, you can bring one of them

leopard wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

leopard wrote:
I'd say in this context this is saying take your points limit, divide it by 1,500, round the result down, thats how many you get to take

Yes and people on facebook are arguing you don't have to fill 1500 points to take the legate. They're arguing you can take it at 1499, for example. Which you can't.

yes, however its the size of the game that matters, not the size of the army, a 1,500 point game can be played with 200 point armies if you want, I mean daft but its legal, nothing says you have to spend all your points. if you agreed a 1,499 point game then no, he stays at home

to be honest I really don't see whats meant to be unclear about this, the game has some funny rules but not sure this is one of them

what is the reasoning people are quoting?

That's irrelevant, I'm fully aware you can play any point level, that statement though doesn't mean at any point level you can play a legate commander, it needs to be 1500 or higher. This is not what facebook is arguing, they're arguing you can take a legate commander at 1499, which you can't. None of this has anything to do with the point level you choose to play outside of 1500 point increments, it has no effect on the set in stone requirements for fielding a legate until 1500 or more points worth is fielded.

if you note I'm agreeing with you, I'm asking what reasoning people are using to say otherwise, I think the rule is very clear

for every 1,500 points in the size of game you have agreed, you can bring one of them

Yes but they're holding that premise there, at just agreeing to play a 1500 game, they don't think they actually have to field 1500 to take the lagate, simply agree to the point level of the game. Which is false.

leopard wrote:


if you note I'm agreeing with you, I'm asking what reasoning people are using to say otherwise, I think the rule is very clear

for every 1,500 points in the size of game you have agreed, you can bring one of them

Except he's arquing what you agreed is irrelevant...

He's arquing point limit is what you have spent.

This means

A) there's no poit limit agreement pre-game. Point limit at the point you pick allegiance is 0 as you have spent 0(direct violation of page 127 btw)
B) you literally cannot go over point limit as your point limit is what you have spent...so he can bring whole collection to game if he wants. Once you are at 1500? Add 1500 more. Now your point limit is 3000 so still inside point limit. Add 3000 more. Now you have 6000 and point limit is 6000...obviously this doesn't work like this but thats his arqument...

Page 127(sorry about misremembering page #) though says point limit is agreed BEFORE even allegiance is picked.

And legate rule talks about point limit. Not points spent.

A Solar Auxilia force can include a maximum of 1 Legate
Commander per full 1,500 points of the points limit
(e.g., a 2,000 point Army can include a single Legate
Commander, a 3,000 point Army can include 2 Legate
Commanders, etc.).

Where does it say points spent rather than points limit?

And are you realizing if you agree with him you are allowing people to bring their whole collection to game? Point limit is after all same as point spent according to him.

And here's handy quote from page 127.


Once a points limit for a game has been agreed upon,
players can begin mustering their armies.

So as can be seen point LIMIT(you know, the one referenced in legate rule...) is set before army is created.

If you have agreed to 1500 pts point limit then that's the point limit legate rule uses. And minimum formation rule. And ally continent size. None of those is altered by how much points of your limit you manage to spend.

tneva82 wrote:


A Solar Auxilia force can include a maximum of 1 Legate
Commander per full 1,500 points of the points limit
(e.g., a 2,000 point Army can include a single Legate
Commander, a 3,000 point Army can include 2 Legate
Commanders, etc.).

Read it again.


Timo can a 1497 point list legally take a legate commander? YES/NO

If the agreed points limit is 1,500-2,999 points? Yes.

If the agreed points limit is 1,499 points? No.

Because the points spent are not cited as a requirement. Only the points limit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If the agreed points limit is 1,500-2,999 points? Yes.

If the agreed points limit is 1,499 points? No.

Because the points spent are not cited as a requirement. Only the points limit.

if the agree upon point limit is 1500 and one player field 1499, they can't field legate commander. This is equally true if you agree to play 2999 points and one side only fields 1497 points of that possible 2999, they can't take a legate commander, they didn't field at least 1500.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Because the points spent are not cited as a requirement. Only the points limit.

They absolutely are, hence the specificity of full, something that is not subjective. A full 1500 point solar auxillia force and a full gas tank, absolutely indicate 100% capacity.

No. Full means you need to agree to 1500 to get 1. Not 1250 pts. And you don't get 2 in 1750. Without word full you would get 2 at 1501 pts game.

Funny. 6 year old niece understands this

Of course she isn't angleshooter bringing full collection to game. Not surprising. She has been taught not to cheat.

tneva82 wrote:
No. Full means you need to agree to 1500 to get 1. Not 1250 pts. And you don't get 2 in 1750. Without word full you would get 2 at 1501 pts game.

Funny. 6 year old niece understands this

If you agree to 1500 point game and field less than 1500 points, you can't field a legate commander.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:


Of course she isn't angleshooter bringing full collection to game. Not surprising. She has been taught not to cheat.

I'm not the topic, reported. And it seems like you're agreeing with me, so quite confusing to choose to insult me.

OK. Final interaction from me on this topic.

People understand where you’re coming from. But the whole “points spent” is an insertion into the rules entirely your own.

The rules refer to “full 1500 of the points limit”.

Not “full 1500 spent of the points limit”. I’m afraid you can’t just go around inserting words and then insisting that’s what the rule means.

Full 1500 points of the points limit is setting the maximum number available per integer - not spend.

Right. I’m off for now. Got some washing up to do and my next YouTube video to film when my buddy arrives.