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I'm going to go ahead and jump on the "It's not a new faction" wagon. As mentioned by others it doesn't have to be a new faction just because it's "Redacted".
My guess is it's Imperial Agents. If they continue to be a bolt on for other Imperium factions and not a stand alone army I'm not particularly excited about the codex.
Kanluwen wrote: It's most likely going to be Guard, given that GSC are the ones right before it and there's a rumor of a GSC v Votann set, featuring Brood Brothers.
Gotta get those cross-faction dollars while the Guard aren't super-salty about having their arsenal torn out into another book after all!.
...is that a thing guard players get annoyed by? brood brothers has been a thing for as long as GSC have existed. i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either. GSC have existed for several editions now, and at no point has GW seemed to feel a need to tie the two factions together, beyond us needing to use guard's toys to fill out our heavy supports
...is that a thing guard players get annoyed by? brood brothers has been a thing for as long as GSC have existed.
I can't speak for anyone else, but yeah. I'm annoyed by it. Read how Brood Brothers works now and realize that they literally get to pull the prime units out of the Guard roster with no downside. They shouldn't get any of the "named" Regiment units(Kasrkin, Cadian Shock, Death Korps, Catachan Jungle, or Attillan Rough Riders).
I have zero issue with them getting access to Scions, Commissars, Ogryn, etc. But I draw the line at the "named" Regiments.
i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either.
It would be its own unit option, so yeah. It would. Because unless they're going to have only the Cadian Shock Troop options? There's something that's going to be missing, and that's still the basic Infantry Squad.
GSC have existed for several editions now, and at no point has GW seemed to feel a need to tie the two factions together, beyond us needing to use guard's toys to fill out our heavy supports
And your troops. Remember that there literally was a Brood Brothers kit that's a Cadian Shock Troop box + sprue
Kanluwen wrote: It's most likely going to be Guard, given that GSC are the ones right before it and there's a rumor of a GSC v Votann set, featuring Brood Brothers.
Gotta get those cross-faction dollars while the Guard aren't super-salty about having their arsenal torn out into another book after all!.
...is that a thing guard players get annoyed by? brood brothers has been a thing for as long as GSC have existed. i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either. GSC have existed for several editions now, and at no point has GW seemed to feel a need to tie the two factions together, beyond us needing to use guard's toys to fill out our heavy supports
For my part, I wouldn't say "annoyed" so much as "leery". You said it yourself, you (sometimes) need our toys. But...why? Why do you need our toys and why do you need our toys? Why can't GW give you toys of your own? Why can't you take extras from Tyranids? I'm fine with GSC retaining a few (limited and specific) Guard datasheets to futureproof against whatever Allies rules do or do not exist, but if access to the Guard goodies is so essential to your list why not do an allied Guard force from the Guard book instead? (Note: no idea what Allies rules look like for 10e, not sure if this is viable or not; also, wouldn't blame a GSC player for feeling a bit miffed at having to buy two codices to make their force. That said, if they wanted to lean in the other direction and do GSC+Tyranid force, that's already the boat they're in, so...)
I won't say that BB is inherently a threat to (the less copyrightable) Guard, but it does kinda feel like there's a certain baseline chance that GSC+BB will end up just being "Guard but better", and I don't trust GW to see that and react appropriately (or the players, for that matter - I'd rather not face the day where I gripe about the lack of options for a Guard raiding/fast-attack force and get told "Oh, you should pick up GSC! They've got all the Fast Attack options and rules that you need and will never get because GSC already have them!"). You're right, it is a paranoid fear, but we live in the dumb timeline and I'm too jaded to rule that possibility out.
PS - Yes, I was the oldest child in the family, how could you tell?
i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either.
It would be its own unit option, so yeah. It would. Because unless they're going to have only the Cadian Shock Troop options? There's something that's going to be missing, and that's still the basic Infantry Squad.
but it's a genestealers kill team. i imagine it's going to have genestealer-specific options, and even some specific mutations. why would that also be a guard release?
Kanluwen wrote: It's most likely going to be Guard, given that GSC are the ones right before it and there's a rumor of a GSC v Votann set, featuring Brood Brothers.
Gotta get those cross-faction dollars while the Guard aren't super-salty about having their arsenal torn out into another book after all!.
...is that a thing guard players get annoyed by? brood brothers has been a thing for as long as GSC have existed. i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either. GSC have existed for several editions now, and at no point has GW seemed to feel a need to tie the two factions together, beyond us needing to use guard's toys to fill out our heavy supports
For my part, I wouldn't say "annoyed" so much as "leery". You said it yourself, you (sometimes) need our toys. But...why? Why do you need our toys and why do you need our toys? Why can't GW give you toys of your own? Why can't you take extras from Tyranids? I'm fine with GSC retaining a few (limited and specific) Guard datasheets to futureproof against whatever Allies rules do or do not exist, but if access to the Guard goodies is so essential to your list why not do an allied Guard force from the Guard book instead? (Note: no idea what Allies rules look like for 10e, not sure if this is viable or not; also, wouldn't blame a GSC player for feeling a bit miffed at having to buy two codices to make their force. That said, if they wanted to lean in the other direction and do GSC+Tyranid force, that's already the boat they're in, so...)
I won't say that BB is inherently a threat to (the less copyrightable) Guard, but it does kinda feel like there's a certain baseline chance that GSC+BB will end up just being "Guard but better", and I don't trust GW to see that and react appropriately (or the players, for that matter - I'd rather not face the day where I gripe about the lack of options for a Guard raiding/fast-attack force and get told "Oh, you should pick up GSC! They've got all the Fast Attack options and rules that you need and will never get because GSC already have them!"). You're right, it is a paranoid fear, but we live in the dumb timeline and I'm too jaded to rule that possibility out.
PS - Yes, I was the oldest child in the family, how could you tell?
(Note: no idea what Allies rules look like for 10e, not sure if this is viable or not
genestealers get 500 points maximum of guard, and a list of keywords we can't take. that's not a lot, two or three takes, and these days we don't want to take brood brothers infantry since it doesn't benefit from our army rules, so it really is just about the tanks. there's no overarching rules for allies, so unless you have something like that, you don't get to take allies at all
i would love if we could also take tyranids as allies! it's really annoying that we can't! but i don't think it's a zero sum game, and with genestealers being as small as we are (the army is mostly characters), we could definitely use more options
i don't think getting rid of brood brothers should even be considered. it's been part of the army's identity since Rogue Trader— genestealers have been taking leman russes since before my parents met. it's as core a part of the army as magi or hybrids
youngest of three, btw. can you tell?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/02/18 00:50:41
Kanluwen wrote: It's most likely going to be Guard, given that GSC are the ones right before it and there's a rumor of a GSC v Votann set, featuring Brood Brothers.
Gotta get those cross-faction dollars while the Guard aren't super-salty about having their arsenal torn out into another book after all!.
...is that a thing guard players get annoyed by? brood brothers has been a thing for as long as GSC have existed. i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either. GSC have existed for several editions now, and at no point has GW seemed to feel a need to tie the two factions together, beyond us needing to use guard's toys to fill out our heavy supports
For my part, I wouldn't say "annoyed" so much as "leery". You said it yourself, you (sometimes) need our toys. But...why? Why do you need our toys and why do you need our toys? Why can't GW give you toys of your own? Why can't you take extras from Tyranids? I'm fine with GSC retaining a few (limited and specific) Guard datasheets to futureproof against whatever Allies rules do or do not exist, but if access to the Guard goodies is so essential to your list why not do an allied Guard force from the Guard book instead? (Note: no idea what Allies rules look like for 10e, not sure if this is viable or not; also, wouldn't blame a GSC player for feeling a bit miffed at having to buy two codices to make their force. That said, if they wanted to lean in the other direction and do GSC+Tyranid force, that's already the boat they're in, so...)
I won't say that BB is inherently a threat to (the less copyrightable) Guard, but it does kinda feel like there's a certain baseline chance that GSC+BB will end up just being "Guard but better", and I don't trust GW to see that and react appropriately (or the players, for that matter - I'd rather not face the day where I gripe about the lack of options for a Guard raiding/fast-attack force and get told "Oh, you should pick up GSC! They've got all the Fast Attack options and rules that you need and will never get because GSC already have them!"). You're right, it is a paranoid fear, but we live in the dumb timeline and I'm too jaded to rule that possibility out.
PS - Yes, I was the oldest child in the family, how could you tell?
(Note: no idea what Allies rules look like for 10e, not sure if this is viable or not
genestealers get 500 points maximum of guard, and a list of keywords we can't take. that's not a lot, two or three takes, and these days we don't want to take brood brothers infantry since it doesn't benefit from our army rules, so it really is just about the tanks. there's no overarching rules for allies, so unless you have something like that, you don't get to take allies at all
i would love if we could also take tyranids as allies! it's really annoying that we can't! but i don't think it's a zero sum game, and with genestealers being as small as we are (the army is mostly characters), we could definitely use more options
i don't think getting rid of brood brothers should even be considered. it's been part of the army's identity since Rogue Trader— genestealers have been taking leman russes since before my parents met. it's as core a part of the army as magi or hybrids
youngest of three, btw. can you tell?
OK, that sounds pretty fair for limitations. I might like it a bit more if you had to buy a squad or two of BB Infantry to unlock a tank (I won't say "its impossible that a cult could have snuck a tank out by itself without subverting guards as well". That's absurd given that Orks canonically snuck off with multiple Deathstrikes, no subversion necessary), but it sounds fine.
Honestly, I agree with you - it shouldn't be zero-sum, you guys should have (similarly limited) access to Tyranids, and I don't think Brood Brothers should go away at all. Like I said, my main worry is that GSC end up just being "Guard but better", so as long as there are limitations enough to prevent that (and play-style differences enough that GSC and Guard can be their own thing without stepping on each other's toes too much) I'm fine with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/18 01:16:38
Kanluwen wrote: It's most likely going to be Guard, given that GSC are the ones right before it and there's a rumor of a GSC v Votann set, featuring Brood Brothers.
Gotta get those cross-faction dollars while the Guard aren't super-salty about having their arsenal torn out into another book after all!.
...is that a thing guard players get annoyed by? brood brothers has been a thing for as long as GSC have existed. i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either. GSC have existed for several editions now, and at no point has GW seemed to feel a need to tie the two factions together, beyond us needing to use guard's toys to fill out our heavy supports
For my part, I wouldn't say "annoyed" so much as "leery". You said it yourself, you (sometimes) need our toys. But...why? Why do you need our toys and why do you need our toys? Why can't GW give you toys of your own? Why can't you take extras from Tyranids? I'm fine with GSC retaining a few (limited and specific) Guard datasheets to futureproof against whatever Allies rules do or do not exist, but if access to the Guard goodies is so essential to your list why not do an allied Guard force from the Guard book instead? (Note: no idea what Allies rules look like for 10e, not sure if this is viable or not; also, wouldn't blame a GSC player for feeling a bit miffed at having to buy two codices to make their force. That said, if they wanted to lean in the other direction and do GSC+Tyranid force, that's already the boat they're in, so...)
I won't say that BB is inherently a threat to (the less copyrightable) Guard, but it does kinda feel like there's a certain baseline chance that GSC+BB will end up just being "Guard but better", and I don't trust GW to see that and react appropriately (or the players, for that matter - I'd rather not face the day where I gripe about the lack of options for a Guard raiding/fast-attack force and get told "Oh, you should pick up GSC! They've got all the Fast Attack options and rules that you need and will never get because GSC already have them!"). You're right, it is a paranoid fear, but we live in the dumb timeline and I'm too jaded to rule that possibility out.
PS - Yes, I was the oldest child in the family, how could you tell?
(Note: no idea what Allies rules look like for 10e, not sure if this is viable or not
genestealers get 500 points maximum of guard, and a list of keywords we can't take. that's not a lot, two or three takes, and these days we don't want to take brood brothers infantry since it doesn't benefit from our army rules, so it really is just about the tanks. there's no overarching rules for allies, so unless you have something like that, you don't get to take allies at all
i would love if we could also take tyranids as allies! it's really annoying that we can't! but i don't think it's a zero sum game, and with genestealers being as small as we are (the army is mostly characters), we could definitely use more options
i don't think getting rid of brood brothers should even be considered. it's been part of the army's identity since Rogue Trader— genestealers have been taking leman russes since before my parents met. it's as core a part of the army as magi or hybrids
youngest of three, btw. can you tell?
OK, that sounds pretty fair for limitations. I might like it a bit more if you had to buy a squad or two of BB Infantry to unlock a tank (I won't say "its impossible that a cult could have snuck a tank out by itself without subverting guards as well". That's absurd given that Orks canonically snuck off with multiple Deathstrikes, no subversion necessary), but it sounds fine.
Honestly, I agree with you - it shouldn't be zero-sum, you guys should have (similarly limited) access to Tyranids, and I don't think Brood Brothers should go away at all. Like I said, my main worry is that GSC end up just being "Guard but better", so as long as there are limitations enough to prevent that (and play-style differences enough that GSC and Guard can be their own thing without stepping on each other's toes too much) I'm fine with it.
the limitations are definitely there. the difference between orders and the respawning mechanic are pretty huge, which encourages using GSC units and not brood brothers infantry. and re:needing brood brothers infantry to take tanks, i think the idea is supposed to be that we didn't steal it, but that we've taken over enough of the planet's regional guard that they've just given it to us (and any relevant guardsmen involved in bringing the tank to the cult forces are probably inside it)
I can't speak for anyone else, but yeah. I'm annoyed by it. Read how Brood Brothers works now and realize that they literally get to pull the prime units out of the Guard roster with no downside. They shouldn't get any of the "named" Regiment units(Kasrkin, Cadian Shock, Death Korps, Catachan Jungle, or Attillan Rough Riders).
I have zero issue with them getting access to Scions, Commissars, Ogryn, etc. But I draw the line at the "named" Regiments.
I don't necessarily disagree- I wouldn't care so much if they were restricted to generic Platoon Command Squads and Infantry Squads. It wouldn't prevent me from using Krieg Models to represent my BB, as long as they were equipped as Platoon Command Squads and Infantry Squads. It would be a "count as" arrangement- they still take the appropriate datacard ability.
I also don't disagree that we might see a generic Platoon Command Squad, and a generic infantry squad as a Guard release, with GSC upgrade sprues for their release, and then an explicit change to reflect that those two units are meant to represent the Brood Brothers. And if the kit is cool enough, I wouldn't mind using it
But I do have to point out that the "with no downside" part of your post isn't exactly accurate: Brood Brothers can only be 25% of the total points of the GSC army, can't include Epic Heroes, Abhumans, Commissars, Scions, Preachers, Enginseers, Servitors or Aircraft. They can't be warlords or have Enhancements, and because they don't actually gain GSC keywords, they can't use any of their strats and aren't subject to their detachment and army rules.
Now it does seem like they can still use Orders- just like nothing grants them the GSC keyword, nothing removes the Astra Militarum keyword. That's pretty cool, but I'm not sure it compensates for the loss of greater synergy with the larger GSC army.
Personally, if I was running a narrative campaign that included both GSC players and IG players, I'd say the force available to GSC as Brood Brothers would be the same force the IG player was using. Cults are opportunists who recruit from the pool of potential hosts available, and if a cult is up against a particular regiment, that regiment is fair game for conversion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/18 02:04:12
i don't think a KT brood brothers kit would really demand a new guard release, either.
It would be its own unit option, so yeah. It would. Because unless they're going to have only the Cadian Shock Troop options? There's something that's going to be missing, and that's still the basic Infantry Squad.
but it's a genestealers kill team. i imagine it's going to have genestealer-specific options, and even some specific mutations. why would that also be a guard release?
The rumored Brood Brothers Kill Team is an upgrade frame to the new Cadian Shock Troops.
That's a Guard kit. Your upgrade frame means nothing.
genestealers get 500 points maximum of guard
They get a max of 750, per the app. You get 250 at Incursion, 500 for Strike Force, 750 for Onslaught.
and a list of keywords we can't take. that's not a lot, two or three takes, and these days we don't want to take brood brothers infantry since it doesn't benefit from our army rules, so it really is just about the tanks.
there's no overarching rules for allies, so unless you have something like that, you don't get to take allies at all
So basically, you get to be special when very few armies do.
i would love if we could also take tyranids as allies! it's really annoying that we can't!
It's contrary to their lore. GSC pave the way, and then members flee or get devoured.
but i don't think it's a zero sum game, and with genestealers being as small as we are (the army is mostly characters), we could definitely use more options
You have more options than some armies do, not counting the Brood Brothers pool.
i don't think getting rid of brood brothers should even be considered. it's been part of the army's identity since Rogue Trader— genestealers have been taking leman russes since before my parents met. it's as core a part of the army as magi or hybrids
Don't invent an argument. Nobody has said to get rid of Brood Brothers. It's weird that you don't ever mention the fact that literally GSC, when brought back, had certain items actually in their codex.
Brood brothers exists purely because GW doesn't want to reproduce the unit entries across 2 books, which is exactly what they should be doing tbh. That way they can have faction related rules and synergies at appropriate points costs.
The only argument for not doing that is as the guard range evolves it means they don't need to faq/errata more stuff to be covered by it.
I tried to collect and play gsc but it wasn't for me, nevertheless the fact gw keep pumping out random character models instead of giving them vehicles/something heavy, is the sole reason people turn to brood brothers in the first place.
I would say that anyone salty about it better be salty that rhinos, predators etc. Exist in multiple armies too.
Now it does seem like they can still use Orders- just like nothing grants them the GSC keyword, nothing removes the Astra Militarum keyword. That's pretty cool, but I'm not sure it compensates for the loss of greater synergy with the larger GSC army.
orders in 10th are part of guard's army rule, so unless you're playing a guard army, you don't get access to them. there's no compensation for the loss of synergy, like i've said, so you have no reason to take battleline infantry over neophytes
I tried to collect and play gsc but it wasn't for me, nevertheless the fact gw keep pumping out random character models instead of giving them vehicles/something heavy, is the sole reason people turn to brood brothers in the first place.
again, brood brothers is baked into the heart of the army. it's one of the original ideas behind the army back in 1st and 2nd edition, so when GW brought the army back, it was front and center for the army. we don't turn to brood brothers because we don't have other options, we have other options because this army is designed with brood brothers in mind. it's like trying to talk about custodians strictly as being their plastic range because you don't like resin— sure, you might not use that stuff, but it's a clear part of the army, and is a part of the consideration in balancing the army and designing it
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/18 14:15:39
Dudeface wrote: Brood brothers exists purely because GW doesn't want to reproduce the unit entries across 2 books, which is exactly what they should be doing tbh. That way they can have faction related rules and synergies at appropriate points costs.
The only argument for not doing that is as the guard range evolves it means they don't need to faq/errata more stuff to be covered by it.
I tried to collect and play gsc but it wasn't for me, nevertheless the fact gw keep pumping out random character models instead of giving them vehicles/something heavy, is the sole reason people turn to brood brothers in the first place.
Arguably the characters added more to the faction than just vehicles would have...and ironically, a few of them would have been more at home as Guard characters than GSC. Looking at you Jackal Alphus and Nexos.
I would say that anyone salty about it better be salty that rhinos, predators etc. Exist in multiple armies too.
Not the same thing. Rhinos and Predators are the "basic" chassis. Not everyone gets Immolators, Exorcists, Castigators, Baal Predators, or Razorbacks.
There's a precedent for "similar but not the same". GSC breaks it with their current Brood Brothers rules, which are just an excuse for people to cherrypick "the best". There is no reason for DKoK, Kasrkin, Cadian Shock, etc to ever make an appearance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/18 15:16:25
Now it does seem like they can still use Orders- just like nothing grants them the GSC keyword, nothing removes the Astra Militarum keyword. That's pretty cool, but I'm not sure it compensates for the loss of greater synergy with the larger GSC army.
orders in 10th are part of guard's army rule, so unless you're playing a guard army, you don't get access to them. there's no compensation for the loss of synergy, like i've said, so you have no reason to take battleline infantry over neophytes
That makes sense- So to Kan's point, guard in GSC armies are super disadvantaged- having no army rule, or detachment rule, or enhancements or strats at all that they can use.
Before I'm done with Brood Brothers and GSC, I want to check my headcannon against the rest of Dakka. When GW released the first BB upgrade sprue, it bothered me because some of the heads looked more GSC than human. It was always my understanding that Brood Bothers did not have any physical signs of infection. The looked human, but their minds worked differently- they were susceptible to the psychic suggestions of Patriarch and Magus; they have a distain of mere humans and a reverence for the purestrain form.
Their offspring are the ones who a afflicted with physical signs of genetic corruption, not the Brood Brothers themselves.
The first generation born to brood brothers are Acolytes. Acolytes breed a generation of Neophytes that are still discernably alien, though they are two limbed and can pass from a distance. This generation of Neophytes breed one more- the one that is almost human. This is the generation to which the Magus belongs.
And the following generation is purestrains, beginning the cycle anew.
Is that consistent with what everyone else remembers about the GSC lifecycle?
I tried to collect and play gsc but it wasn't for me, nevertheless the fact gw keep pumping out random character models instead of giving them vehicles/something heavy, is the sole reason people turn to brood brothers in the first place.
again, brood brothers is baked into the heart of the army. it's one of the original ideas behind the army back in 1st and 2nd edition, so when GW brought the army back, it was front and center for the army. we don't turn to brood brothers because we don't have other options, we have other options because this army is designed with brood brothers in mind. it's like trying to talk about custodians strictly as being their plastic range because you don't like resin— sure, you might not use that stuff, but it's a clear part of the army, and is a part of the consideration in balancing the army and designing it
I don't think the guard vehicles points cost is considered when looking at GSC or vice versa, it's an afterthought.
Conversely, I'm saying the russes etc should be in the gsc book, have their own entry with jury-rigged ammo and whatever other random rules they can think up to make them work for gsc.
Kanluwen wrote:
Dudeface wrote: Brood brothers exists purely because GW doesn't want to reproduce the unit entries across 2 books, which is exactly what they should be doing tbh. That way they can have faction related rules and synergies at appropriate points costs.
The only argument for not doing that is as the guard range evolves it means they don't need to faq/errata more stuff to be covered by it.
I tried to collect and play gsc but it wasn't for me, nevertheless the fact gw keep pumping out random character models instead of giving them vehicles/something heavy, is the sole reason people turn to brood brothers in the first place.
Arguably the characters added more to the faction than just vehicles would have...and ironically, a few of them would have been more at home as Guard characters than GSC. Looking at you Jackal Alphus and Nexos.
They add more character to the force and some minor ways to interact with the existing kits, but they have plenty now, they need some genuine fire support etc in their own codex.
I would say that anyone salty about it better be salty that rhinos, predators etc. Exist in multiple armies too.
Not the same thing. Rhinos and Predators are the "basic" chassis. Not everyone gets Immolators, Exorcists, Castigators, Baal Predators, or Razorbacks.
There's a precedent for "similar but not the same". GSC breaks it with their current Brood Brothers rules, which are just an excuse for people to cherrypick "the best". There is no reason for DKoK, Kasrkin, Cadian Shock, etc to ever make an appearance.
Can't argue with that, but it's the same reason gsc should have a lot of the units with minor tweaks in their codex rather than having to frankenstein guard in.
Kanluwen wrote: There is no reason for DKoK, Kasrkin, Cadian Shock, etc to ever make an appearance.
I maintain that the actual mistake is having specific units linked to specific regimental origins when they should be archetypes.
There shouldn't be a Cadian unit entry, there should be a Shock trooper entry. There shouldn't be a Kasrkin entry, there should be a Grenadier entry. There should be a Catachans entry, it should be Jungle Fighters etc. They seem to have gone down this route to match the units to the box descriptions, but I think it stifles the creativity of the Guard in which similar uniforms are used by many different worlds. They shouldn't have made 3 slight variants of infantry squad to begin with. Infantry squad is fine.
GSC having brood brothers drawn from the Grenadiers of their world is much more reasonable than it being specifically Kasrkin.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Kanluwen wrote: There is no reason for DKoK, Kasrkin, Cadian Shock, etc to ever make an appearance.
I maintain that the actual mistake is having specific units linked to specific regimental origins when they should be archetypes.
And you'd be mistaken in that argument. If Guard were to be given supplemental books? It would be more acceptable. But they aren't, so this is fine.
There shouldn't be a Cadian unit entry, there should be a Shock trooper entry. There shouldn't be a Kasrkin entry, there should be a Grenadier entry. There should be a Catachans entry, it should be Jungle Fighters etc.
Cool, so there shouldn't be multiple variations of anything you like either.
It has taken FIVE EDITIONS to finally get back the bare minimum of what we had in the doctrines book. FIVE EDITIONS.
They seem to have gone down this route to match the units to the box descriptions, but I think it stifles the creativity of the Guard in which similar uniforms are used by many different worlds. They shouldn't have made 3 slight variants of infantry squad to begin with. Infantry squad is fine.
If they had gone this route to match the units to the box description, we would have gotten an Infantry Squad box by now. Because like I have been saying since the Guard codex dropped in 9E, no single box builds the Infantry Squad entry. And that's not even taking into account the lack of a Heavy Weapons Team.
If they truly had gone this route? We would have lasgun options for Cadian Shock Troop Sergeants(the upgrade sprue released alongside of them features at least one lasgun that can be matched to the pointing sergeant arm) and Hellguns for the Kasrkin Sergeants(it's literally an option for Kill Team AND a build in the instructions). We would have vox-caster options for Cadian Heavy Weapon Squads.
It's easy, as I've said, to continue blathering about "they made it match the boxes"...but it isn't the case for Guard.
GSC having brood brothers drawn from the Grenadiers of their world is much more reasonable than it being specifically Kasrkin.
Which is why I've said, multiple times, that a generic option should be there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/18 17:32:36
JNAProductions wrote: So, why do you need all Shock Troops to be Cadian?
Does no other world have Shock Troops?
Same with Grenadiers.
Jungle Fighters feels a little more Catachan-specific, but surely Catachan isn't the only jungle world.
Counterpoint:
Where's the harm in having the capability to field these unique "race specifics"?
We have how many different flavors of Marines, Loyalist and Traitor? We have entire codices devoted to single Chaos Gods. Yet somehow it's a bridge too far for Cadians, Death Korps, Catachans, and Attilans(because reminder: the Rough Riders in the index currently are keyworded to Attila) to each have a unique unit?
As an additional point, not every world has a heavy armored infantry type. Catachans don't, Tanith don't, Tallarn don't, Mordians don't.
Nor does every world have recon infantry types, mechanized, etc.
Every world, however, does have the basic infantry squad...yet somehow we Guard players are supposed to be okay with the literal inability to build it out of any of our currently available plastic kits?! We're supposed to be okay with the fact that we're SUPPOSED to be forced to buy three kits to build a single battleline unit with its options? We're supposed to be okay with the fact that we're SUPPOSED to have to go and hunt secondhand for certain special weapon options for that unit?
The differences between the named unit types and the infantry squads aren't "just" the doctrinal shift--it's that of the "racial subtypes".
Cadians RIGHT NOW have a significant amount of stuff because they got a range refresh. DKoK have just as much stuff, but it's sadly mixed between Legends and the Imperial Armour Index.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/18 17:59:26
JNAProductions wrote: So, why do you need all Shock Troops to be Cadian?
Does no other world have Shock Troops?
Same with Grenadiers.
Jungle Fighters feels a little more Catachan-specific, but surely Catachan isn't the only jungle world.
Counterpoint:
Where's the harm in having the capability to field these unique "race specifics"?
We have how many different flavors of Marines, Loyalist and Traitor? We have entire codices devoted to single Chaos Gods. Yet somehow it's a bridge too far for Cadians, Death Korps, Catachans, and Attilans(because reminder: the Rough Riders in the index currently are keyworded to Attila) to each have a unique unit?
As an additional point, not every world has a heavy armored infantry type. Catachans don't, Tanith don't, Tallarn don't, Mordians don't.
Nor does every world have recon infantry types, mechanized, etc.
Every world, however, does have the basic infantry squad...yet somehow we Guard players are supposed to be okay with the literal inability to build it out of any of our currently available plastic kits?! We're supposed to be okay with the fact that we're SUPPOSED to be forced to buy three kits to build a single battleline unit with its options? We're supposed to be okay with the fact that we're SUPPOSED to have to go and hunt secondhand for certain special weapon options for that unit?
The differences between the named unit types and the infantry squads aren't "just" the doctrinal shift--it's that of the "racial subtypes".
Cadians RIGHT NOW have a significant amount of stuff because they got a range refresh. DKoK have just as much stuff, but it's sadly mixed between Legends and the Imperial Armour Index.
You should be able to have a basic infantry kit with everything you need. That's not something I've ever argued against.
And I don't think any of the Loyalist Angels or Wolves need their own 'Dex. Hell, Thunderwolf Cavalry shouldn't even be unique to the Space Wolves-there should be a generic animal mounted Marine option.
I do believe that different factions should be treated more equally-either EVERYONE should have supplements and different 'Decs for all their minor variations, or NO ONE should. And I err more on the side of no one gets that much, because it flanderizes minor differnces between subfactions.
For Chaos specifically, I'd like to have it one of two ways:
1) Renegades and Heretics, CSM (including DG, TS, WE, and EC), and Dark Mech.
or
2) One big book for each god and Undivided, including R&H, CSM, and Dark Mech of that specific god.
I think 1 is the better choice, but both are workable.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Because here, I'm with Kanluwen- guard are just as desrving of subfactions as any other faction. As y'all know, I'm a big fan of subfaction identities, especially since we're long past the point when subfactions are going back into the box for Marines and God-Aligned CSM. If two factions are classified as important enough to have defined subfactions, then every faction should have them.
But I also see the other side, and certainly other regiments DO have Grenadiers, Shock Troopers, Jungle Fighters etc.
So the compromise is "counts-as" right? Want to play jungle fighters that aren't Catachan? No problem: paint or convert to make the models look like your dudes, come up with your regiment's name and history. Use the rules for Catachans, but everything else is your dudes. This way, you have your cake, but you get to eat it too.
Right now, subfaction doesn't confer rules beyond those included on the datasheets of bespoke models, so it doesn't matter as much now as it once did. The new Codex and accompanying models could significantly modify the pool of available options. Personally, I'd like to see new Catachans, including a both a generic Company level HQ , a Platoon Command Squad unit, and a Heavy Weapons team. I'd like to see those in plastic for Krieg as well. I think that's a reasonable ask.
Beyond that, there had been talk about Elysians, but I'm not sure whether that was a rumour from a credible source or just wishful thinking brought on by the Plastic Necromunda Tauros. And if so, they need the same kind of HQ representation. I also loved Tallarn desert raiders, and I really miss them. But I don't think it's reasonable to expect that much.
As always, GW will want at least one thing from the new release to be unexpected and new, and one to be named.
Nobody has made mention of detachments as far as I've seen. I'm talking about the literal models.
Though I will say this: Having a detachment basically "creating" Infantry Squads that get the perks of each of the major worlds, slightly watered down, isn't a bad idea. It's not like the injured or lone surviving members of DKoK, Catachan, or Cadian regiments aren't shipped around the galaxy to function as advisors and training instructors.
And what's the difference between a Cadian force, a Krieg force, and an Armageddon force?
What kind of Cadian force? What kind of Krieg force? What kind of Armageddon force?
Because an Armageddon Ork Hunters force that's built to be lore-accurate is going to look and play far, far more similarly to a Catachan Jungle Fighter force than a Steel Legion built to be lore accurate.
A Cadian Kasrkin Regiment would be something that would be visually similar but mechanically distinct to a DKoK Grenadiers force.
I could go on, but the thing to understand is: Each of the "Major Planets" weren't just one specific thing. They have at least one to two iconic styles of warfare tied to them--and that even includes the Catachans!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/18 18:53:13
Kanluwen wrote: What kind of Cadian force? What kind of Krieg force? What kind of Armageddon force?
Because an Armageddon Ork Hunters force that's built to be lore-accurate is going to look and play far, far more similarly to a Catachan Jungle Fighter force than a Steel Legion built to be lore accurate.
Yes. That is my point.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Because here, I'm with Kanluwen- guard are just as desrving of subfactions as any other faction. As y'all know, I'm a big fan of subfaction identities, especially since we're long past the point when subfactions are going back into the box for Marines and God-Aligned CSM. If two factions are classified as important enough to have defined subfactions, then every faction should have them.
But I also see the other side, and certainly other regiments DO have Grenadiers, Shock Troopers, Jungle Fighters etc.
So the compromise is "counts-as" right? Want to play jungle fighters that aren't Catachan? No problem: paint or convert to make the models look like your dudes, come up with your regiment's name and history. Use the rules for Catachans, but everything else is your dudes. This way, you have your cake, but you get to eat it too.
Right now, subfaction doesn't confer rules beyond those included on the datasheets of bespoke models, so it doesn't matter as much now as it once did. The new Codex and accompanying models could significantly modify the pool of available options. Personally, I'd like to see new Catachans, including a both a generic Company level HQ , a Platoon Command Squad unit, and a Heavy Weapons team. I'd like to see those in plastic for Krieg as well. I think that's a reasonable ask.
Beyond that, there had been talk about Elysians, but I'm not sure whether that was a rumour from a credible source or just wishful thinking brought on by the Plastic Necromunda Tauros. And if so, they need the same kind of HQ representation. I also loved Tallarn desert raiders, and I really miss them. But I don't think it's reasonable to expect that much.
As always, GW will want at least one thing from the new release to be unexpected and new, and one to be named.
I'll agree that Counts-As is a decent middle ground, but it still feels weird to take units that are explicitly named after a world in a force from the other side of the galaxy. Also, I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone that we could recover a lot of the missing kits with simple upgrade sprues or multikits (ie. one "tunic Guard" kit that covers Mordians, (old) Cadians, Tallarn, etc). I'd love it if GW did a Victoria Minis/Mad Robot deal and had build-a-squad setups with individual arms, torsos, legs, heads, and so on, but that's not the only way to get back to what we lost.
Racerguy180 wrote: Just say you don't like (insert thing here)...rather than using a derogatory term for the people who happen to live in Flanders!
