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Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2007-03-06-denmark-usat_N.htm?csp=34

Denmark a unique mix of welfare, economic growth

COPENHAGEN — Across Europe, nations such as France, Italy and Germany struggle with lackluster economic growth, high unemployment and high taxes that often fall far short of paying for their welfare states.

Then there is Denmark.

As most in Europe, the Danes have high taxes, which take an average of 50% of income.

They have a big welfare state, which provides free public health care, education, child care and job training on top of generous unemployment benefits.

Wages are high, with 87% of the workforce belonging to unions. Prices are high, too.

But the Danes enjoy steady economic growth, the lowest jobless rate on the continent, a budget surplus and shrinking government debt. And they work 37 hours a week.

Denmark defies much conventional wisdom that you cannot have jobs, growth and sound government finances while imposing high taxes and running a big welfare state.

It's done it through what the Danes call "flexicurity," a hybrid of free labor markets, unfettered business and adjusting welfare to give incentives for people to work so they can pay taxes to finance the benefits they get.

Flexicurity has become an economic eye catcher of Europe, where global competition is widely feared as eroding jobs and undermining the social safety net.

Western government officials are trekking here dying to copy it. Even the low-tax, small-government, free-marketeers at the USA's libertarian Cato Institute say the Italians and the French could learn from the Danes.

"People in other European countries are wondering: 'What is happening in Denmark?' " says Anita Vium, chief economist of the Economic Council of the Labour Movement, a labor think tank here. "We have people coming to study it. The European Union has looked at it. They want to know what we are doing."

They often leave disappointed, say Vium and other Danish economists, bankers and government and industry leaders, who acknowledge that their model is not easy for other European nations, or the USA, to replicate.

Many European nations are not willing to pay the political price to free their labor markets, privatize some companies and build work incentives into their welfare benefits, they say.

In the USA, Americans may not want to pay the taxes the Danes do for health care, education and other social programs, though some Danes, such as Tine Aurvig-Huggenberger, vice president of the Danish Confederation of Trade Unions, say Americans may be paying as much in other ways.

"This is not something that is easy to export," says Danish Employment Minister Claus Hjort Frederiksen. "We have an advantage over some other countries. We are small country. We are homogenous. We've always had to adapt to change. I don't know that this would work in the United States."

Flexible labor market

The "flex" part of flexicurity is a flexible labor market. Workers can be fired with little notice. Roughly 800,000 Danes, or about 30% of the labor force, switch jobs each year, government statistics show. Only 10,000 of the turnover is attributed to layoffs. Most move on to what they see as better jobs.

That contrasts with many European nations, such as France, where employers pay a penalty for firing people. The penalties, which are written into law, make employers reluctant to hire. When the French government last year tried to relax penalties for young workers, students took to the street in protest; the change was revoked.

Instead of giving job security, Denmark gives government unemployment benefits at roughly 90% of pay if a person is laid off. The benefits are not limitless; Danes can collect a lifetime equivalent of four years' worth of benefits before they run out. That provides incentive to find a job.

"You can reduce your workforce when you want," says Klaus Rasmussen of the Confederation of Danish Industries. "That means you can hire people because you know you can reduce your workface if you need to. It's the same in Britain and the United States. You are willing to take risks in hiring. In France and Italy, they want assurances before they hire."

To collect unemployment benefits, Danes must be available to work and take jobs that government job centers find. The government provides free training and education to equip workers for new jobs. Business and trade unions also coordinate on what new skills and education are needed for emerging jobs in the economy.

"The strength of the Danish system is Danes do not cling to the job they have today," Frederiksen says. "They are willing to do something else."

Unemployment was 4.1% in December, a 32-year low. The Finance Ministry predicts it will be 3.9% this year. In comparison, the U.S. jobless rate was 4.6% in January.

Many Danes see the system as one that encourages them to constantly move up the economic ladder.

Dennis Kjaer, 34, is one. After being a math teacher for seven years, Kjaer went back to college last summer to get an anthropology degree — for free, along with a $720-a-month living stipend from the state. Two weeks ago, he was offered a job placing American exchange students with Danish families. He's going to put more college on hold, knowing that he can always go back and the state will pay for it.

"I got a job that gives me administrative experience, so I took it," Kjaer says. "I can go back at any time for my degree. We talk a lot about life-long learning here. You have to evolve all the time."

Kjaer is a divorced father with a 7-year-old son to help support. He says his son can get a free education, too, and other help as he grows up, if he needs it. "If you fall here, someone along the way will catch you and help you," he says. "I pay my 50% taxes with a smile because they're worth it."

At the same time, Denmark embraces free trade, competition and little government ownership or involvement in business.

Denmark has the least amount of government red tape and the shortest start-up time for new businesses in the EU, according to measurements by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, a Paris-based confederation of the 30 largest industrial democracies that is a watchdog against economic and governmental corruption.

Denmark keeps business taxes competitive, about 28%, or comparable to most in Europe. Personal income taxes and a high sales, or value-added tax of 24%, pay for the unemployment benefits, job retraining, child care and education.

The government leaves business and unions to settle almost every aspect of employment. There is no government-set minimum wage, but Danes earn livable wages. They also negotiate pension contributions that go into a national fund that is privately administered, but whose earnings the government taxes. That way, workers can carry their pensions with them from job to job.

The government provides a bare-bones pension. Danes retire on an average of about 87% of their income, depending on their wage level. And those are taxed.

No working poor

If this sounds like lots of taxes to Americans, says Aurvig-Huggenberger of the Danish Confederation of Trade Unions, then Americans should calculate how much they pay for college, day care, what they and their employers pay for health insurance, and add-on taxes for Social Security and Medicare.

"The big difference between the United States and Denmark is you put an emphasis on individualism vs. the collective," she says. "We have no working poor. There are no kids living in cars with no child care. We pay high taxes for it. But in the end, how much money do you need?"

The Danes have a word for their collectivism. It's "jantelov," (pronounced YAN-tee-loav), or Jante Law. It roughly means that nobody is better than anyone else. Hence, there is a greater desire for people to help each other.

In Denmark, the unions and business have a working relationship rather than an adversarial one, with shop stewards sitting on company boards. If the economy takes a downturn or cannot compete globally, Danes and their unions know pay can be affected.

But they also know that there are no jobs if companies go under.

As a result, says Rasmussen of the Confederation of Danish Industries, business and labor willingly work together. "It's a healthy relationship," he says.

Economic, government and labor leaders say the model is the only way Denmark can survive in an increasingly competitive global economy: Business must be flexible, markets must stay free and workers' skills and education must always be upgraded to provide a knowledge-based or value-added economy.

"We cannot compete with China or Vietnam on wages," Employment Minister Frederiksen says. "If we do not compete in salaries, how do we compensate for that? This system has proved to work very well in our accelerated globalized world."

Not for everyone

The Cato Institute based in Washington rates Denmark as one of the freest nations in the world in its 2006 rankings of countries' economic freedom. Denmark ranks 17th, along with Germany, of 130 nations. Hong Kong is first, the USA third, Great Britain sixth, France 24th along with Sweden, and Italy, 45th.

And, says Cato global policy analyst Marian Tupy, France, Italy and other European nations can learn from Denmark: "Leave the economy alone."

But while Tupy applauds Denmark's free-trade and free-enterprise policies, he gives low marks to the big state-provided health, education and child care programs, wondering whether they could be offered less expensively by the private sector. And he questions whether the high taxes are a disincentive for some people to work.

Some Danes, such as Christina Moeller, think so and say the Danish workers paradise isn't for them.

Moeller, 30, who is in the oil shipping business in London, says taxes are a big reason she's unlikely to ever return to Denmark. She earns more and pays less in taxes in Britain. And she says her prospects of moving up the economic ladder are greater than at home.

She also says Denmark's social-welfare system has an insidious effect on her countrymen and women: It saps individual motivation.

"The mindset of most Danes is: How can I get more out of the system?" she says. "The system doesn't make you competitive. You cannot always do what (job) you want to do. It's not going to bring you a high life. It's a security system."

Would Moeller, who is single, consider returning if she got married and had children? Yes, she says, free child care and a free education are tempting.

"But if I did, I would be thinking only about myself," she says. "I'd have to ask: Do I want my children growing up in the same competitive environment that I am in now or without motivation?"

How Denmark, other nations compare

Denmark France Germany Italy U.K. USA

Total area (sq. mi.) 26,777 399,806 221,842 187,175 152,124 3.7 million

Population 5.5 million 62.8 million 82.4 million 58.1 million 60.6 million 300 million

Major religions Evangelical Lutheran, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Muslim Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim Protestant, Roman Catholic, Muslim Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Muslim, Hindu Protestant, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim

Major languages Danish, Faroese, Greenlandic, German, English French German Italian, German, French, Slovene English, Welsh, Gaelic English, Spanish

GDP $256.3 billion $2.2 trillion $2.9 trillion $1.8 trillion $2.3 trillion $13.2 trillion

Average per-capita income $47,390 $34,810 $34,580 $30,010 $37,600 $43,740

Unemployment rate 4.5% 9.1% 7.1% 7.0% 5.4% 4.6%

Taxes (% of GDP) NA 22.7% 11.0% 21.3% 28.3% 11.2%

Government budget balances

Revenue $147.0 billion $1.2 trillion $1.3 trillion $832.9 billion $973 billion $2.4 trillion

Expenditures $138.9 billion, including capital expenditures of $4.6 billion $1.2 trillion $1.3 trillion $925 billion $1.0 trillion $2.7 trillion2

Debt (% of GDP1) 28.6% 64.7% 66.8% 107.8% 42.2% 64.7%

1 = 2005 results; 2 = includes capital expenditures Sources: World Bank, CIA World Fact Book (2006 estimates)


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Madrak Ironhide







That's a fascinating system.

But right now, I want a danish.

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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






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Executing Exarch





Los Angeles

It just goes to show that there are a lot of different ways to do things and they all come with their own pros and cons.

**** Phoenix ****

Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Mannahnin wrote:The Danes have a word for their collectivism. It's "jantelov," (pronounced YAN-tee-loav), or Jante Law. It roughly means that nobody is better than anyone else. Hence, there is a greater desire for people to help each other.


Holy non sequitur, Batman!

A very impressive article about a very impressive system. But I couldn't let that one slide.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/01/18 21:07:22


"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

bigchris1313 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:The Danes have a word for their collectivism. It's "jantelov," (pronounced YAN-tee-loav), or Jante Law. It roughly means that nobody is better than anyone else. Hence, there is a greater desire for people to help each other.


Holy non sequitur, Batman!

A very impressive article about a very impressive system. But I couldn't let that one slide.


Yeah, that’s either some terrible writing or terrible editing.


Phoenix wrote:It just goes to show that there are a lot of different ways to do things and they all come with their own pros and cons.


Or in the case of Denmark, pros and pros.

Or perhaps, pros and blondes.

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Made in ie
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I've always found the danes to be insufferably pleased with their system and highly critical of our own. They're right of course, but it's still unpleasant to have it constantly pointed out when you're just trying to get on with things.

   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






"We are able to make our system work with our 12 citizens, it should work just as well for your 300 million."

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
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Madrak Ironhide







Pros and babes. Hair color makes no difference to me.

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"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Ahtman wrote:"We are able to make our system work with our 12 citizens, it should work just as well for your 300 million."


You're so right. 12 is a much closer order of magnitude to 5.5 million than it is to 300 million.

Or you could just be casually dismissing and disregarding information about a successful system based on a caricaturish exaggeration of our difference in population.

I'm pretty sure it's one of those.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/01/19 17:34:13


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Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Mannahnin wrote:
Ahtman wrote:"We are able to make our system work with our 12 citizens, it should work just as well for your 300 million."


You're so right. 12 is a much closer order of magnitude to 5.5 million than it is to 300 million.

Or you could just be casually dismissing and disregarding information about a successful system based on a caricaturish exaggeration of our difference in population.

I'm pretty sure it's one of those.


Actually it was just purely a joke.

I never said there was anything wrong with the system, though you do seem to be playing right into the attitude that Da Boss was talking about. And saying it might not work for the states, well, that is also stated in the article itself so I'm not really saying anything the author had not already.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

I'm pretty sure Da Boss was joking. The few Danes I've known have been pretty humble, nice folks.

As you say, the article already allowed for the fact that no system is easily transferable from one country to another; to me that just made your comment look more like a cheap shot, and less like you had actually read the piece.

I'm not a socialist or a communist. I'm definitely much more interested in a hybrid system, with a flexible economy, and the government there to provide things it needs to, in areas where private entities either can't do things we need, or won't do them right.

In my opinion healthcare has fairly well proven to be the latter.

To name two quick examples, Germany and Denmark both seem to have systems like this. They've also got strong economies (Germany is lagging a little behind, particularly with the expenditures they're still making to bring the former East Germany up to speed), and are doing substantially better than we are on healthcare.

While any solution we adopt has obviously got to be tailored for our needs, that doesn't mean we should assume that a system that's working really well somewhere else can't possibly work here.

A lot of people are suffering and getting insufficient care under our system.

Is it better than what any society offered throughout most of human history? Certainly.

But is it something we can boast about, in the happy knowledge that the wealthiest and most powerful country in the history of the world also has the best healthcare for its people? Sadly, no.

It often seems to me that some politicians and a lot of regular folks blindly repeat the assertion that we have the "best healthcare in the world" as an article of faith, in deliberate disregard or blind ignorance of the statistical evidence to the contrary. This is pretty frustrating to me. IMO our country's supposed to be about striving for excellence, and for attempting to be the best in the world. When we stop working at it and start acting like we've achieved it, we fail.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/01/19 20:29:46


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See this why you should never forget the

I'm not trying to be condescending or take cheap shots. When you said our systems you were implying that you were Danish. Of course if I had remembered your sig that may have saved me the disgrace

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Hyderabad, India

Ahtman wrote:I want a Great Dane.


HEY! This is a family board!

 
   
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Madrak Ironhide







A family of Great Danes?

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Glasgow, Scotland

I don't think the Danish system is really anything to get too excited about. It is similar to most other countries with the obvious exception that the Labour Unions are much stronger. It works well in Denmark, but it is essentially a uniquely Danish system that won't carry over anywhere else without 150 years of strong Union activity and absence of restrictive laws concerning them.

It is worth pointing out as well that Denmark also has many problems too. But this isn't the place to go into them.

The article though paints too rosy a picture I believe and seems to be a bit on the inaccurate side. It says Denmark has little public ownership. Compared to what? France or Sweden, yes, but compared to America or Britain it has much more. The Union-firm relationship is painted in rather inaccurate terms as well. The reason Danish Union are able to achieve such success for their members is they have the power to make things very uncomfortable indeed for the firms should negotiations break down, and nobody can be fired for going on strike.

There are things that I agree about concerning the Danish system, I like strong Unions, and I like the attempts to keep beaureacracy down, but I wouldn't paint it as being the ideal system.
   
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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

The scale also does make a difference. Denamark being a small country is more cohesive. the language also helps there are not many Danes, and they are mostly in 'one place' this builds more united society and one where more altruistic politics prervails.

In The UK and France the Unions maight talk the talk, but they are just afterpower, at the expense of the workers. The idea of strong Unions not being an economic wrecking bal is a hopeless dream in the UK, this is because the Unions in some countries are seen from within as worker protection, in other countries it is an opportunity for personal power play.

What didnt help was ther Soviet Union. The Uk's unions, like the nuclear disarmament lobbies was very powerful and bankrolled. The wrong people were encouraged to be supported, not 'commie spies', no nothing so two dimensional.
No the "give us what we want or we strike strike strike mentality" infecting the unions in the Uk and France came about because disruptive candidates were supported by the Soviets indirectly. They didnt need to perpetuate the process. Once the close shop meant that people voted for who they were told, and the workers accepted their leaders despite their obvious non-socialist lifestyles (Trade Unionists are very powerful and very highly paid) it became the desired meal ticket up into left wing politics.

Like the CND, this type of union was only really dealt with after their puppetmasters in th Kremlin were no longer there to think long term for them. Think of this, the nukes are still around, but the protesters are gone, is the world suddenly safe? No the lobbyists are not funded by a Soviet Union anymore.

Now Denmark is not a target country, with a smaller polulation and no power projection capability, let alone no nuclear arsenal and vote in the UN. So noone interfered with the embryonic union system. So there and other smaller european countries moderately paid trade Union officials do honest jobs supporting workers righgts within a framework of mutual cooperation with employers.

Meanwhile in the Uk you still have superpowerful public sector unions while in the private sector since the hammer brought down by Thatcher, and completed by Blair workers have very little rights. For example: Constructive dismissal (making workers conditions deliberatly unpleasant though various means so they do not stay, this weeds out those not in in in crowd and cuts pension investments by denying long term employability prospects) and pension plundering ("We dont think you should get the pension you have been contracted for and have worked for for 25 years, here have the statutory minimum instead" - yes I have seen this happen). Workers have nowhere to turn to, and society darent let the Unions riswe, as they are only concerned with power accumulation, not fair working conditions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/01/25 11:37:48


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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