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Please excuse me if this was asked already.

So, I have Azrael leading 5 hellblasters. They ride in an impulsor.

Azrael gives the unit he leads [sustained hits 1]. The impulsor's firing deck allows the tank to choose 6 models embarked in it, and select one of their ranged weapons each and counts as being equipped with those weapons.

Now, my question is if the weapons still have [sustained hits 1] when the impulsor uses them?

 Mickmann wrote:
Please excuse me if this was asked already.

So, I have Azrael leading 5 hellblasters. They ride in an impulsor.

Azrael gives the unit he leads [sustained hits 1]. The impulsor's firing deck allows the tank to choose 6 models embarked in it, and select one of their ranged weapons each and counts as being equipped with those weapons.

Now, my question is if the weapons still have [sustained hits 1] when the impulsor uses them?

Is Azrael leading the impulsor unit?

If not, the impulsor unit can not get [sustained hits 1]

No. The transport counts as having the weapons in this instance, so this rule has no effect.

I do not see any definitive text in the rules that says one way or another.

FIRING DECK
Some transports have firing hatches, ports or platforms from which embarked passengers can shoot.

Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’ listed in their abilities. Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it. Then, for each of those embarked models, you can select one ranged weapon that embarked model is equipped with. Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it counts as being equipped with all of the weapons you selected in this way, in addition to its other weapons.

Tactical Precision: While this model is leading a unit, weapons equipped by models in that unit have the [LETHAL HITS] ability.

You can make the argument that the weapon the models in the unit now has the Lethal Hits ability and that therefore transfers over to the Transport.

I find that unconvincing. The weapons are now equipped by the Transport and are no longer weapons equipped by models in that unit. Instead, the weapons equipped by the transport are now affected by any rules that impact the Transport rather than any that affect the unit it is borrowing them from.

At least, that is HIWPI given the lack of clear guidance in the rules.

It’s really clear. The weapons are equipped by the Transport in this instance, so no Leader benefit could or would apply. Your HIWPI is the RAW.

That's how I read it as well. The weapons are not equipped by the unit but by the transport.

I think that Firing Deck specifying that the weapons are now equipped by the vehicle was written specifically for instances like this.

 Mickmann wrote:
Please excuse me if this was asked already.

So, I have Azrael leading 5 hellblasters. They ride in an impulsor.

Azrael gives the unit he leads [sustained hits 1]. The impulsor's firing deck allows the tank to choose 6 models embarked in it, and select one of their ranged weapons each and counts as being equipped with those weapons.

Now, my question is if the weapons still have [sustained hits 1] when the impulsor uses them?

The transport with firing deck is considered to be shooting the weapons. So only the special rules in the weapons profile would take affect. Hilariously any wounds caused by hazardous would be on the vehicle not the unit. Think of a live hand grenade going off in a troop compartment and only hurting the vehicle leaving the occupants unharmed. I dunno, maybe before it explodes the passengers toss it into the drivers compartment?

Actually in this instance, it was my opponent who told i would get sustained hits because azrael already modified the weapons abilities *before* shooting from the firing deck. Its a rather rare occurence that your opponent tries to interpret the rules to your advantage 😀.

Anyways having a tank soak up the damage of your hazardrous-rolls is really strong already.

Units in Transports cannot be affected by anything. Azrael cannot affect his unit. No Sustained Hits.

 Mickmann wrote:
Actually in this instance, it was my opponent who told i would get sustained hits because azrael already modified the weapons abilities *before* shooting from the firing deck. Its a rather rare occurence that your opponent tries to interpret the rules to your advantage 😀.

Anyways having a tank soak up the damage of your hazardrous-rolls is really strong already.

I actually think that's the RAW. Because the weapons come from a unit Azrael is leading, those weapons have Sustained Hits, even when they're borrowed by the Impulsor. I don't think that's how it was intended, but I think that's how it's written. GW just got too cute.

Breton wrote:

 Mickmann wrote:
Actually in this instance, it was my opponent who told i would get sustained hits because azrael already modified the weapons abilities *before* shooting from the firing deck. Its a rather rare occurence that your opponent tries to interpret the rules to your advantage 😀.

Anyways having a tank soak up the damage of your hazardrous-rolls is really strong already.

I actually think that's the RAW. Because the weapons come from a unit Azrael is leading, those weapons have Sustained Hits, even when they're borrowed by the Impulsor. I don't think that's how it was intended, but I think that's how it's written. GW just got too cute.

That is not at all how that works.

Is Azrael leading the Impulsor unit?

If not, the Impulsor unit can not get [sustained hits 1]

His idea is the weapons on impulsor have the sustained hit and as impulsor uses their guns it includes sustained hit.

However as unit inside transport(unlike reserve) can't be affected in any way one can easily arque gaining sustained hit is being affected.

tneva82 wrote:
His idea is the weapons on impulsor have the sustained hit and as impulsor uses their guns it includes sustained hit.

However as unit inside transport(unlike reserve) can't be affected in any way one can easily arque gaining sustained hit is being affected.

Azrael is leading the Unit, so he's part of the unit - and in fact the Impulsor can even choose to use Azrael's gun along with up to five 5 others.

If Sicarius is leading a unit and thus gives a Tac Squad SCOUTS 6" and they pile in a transport, the transport gets the 6" move because he gave the entire unit SCOUTS 6" during the Declare Formations step - much like Azrael gives his unit Sustained Hits during that same step. He does not stop LEADING the unit while they're in the transport, does he?

That is a convincing argument if not for:

EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move
within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.

Since the unit cannot be affected in any way while embarked, the leader abilities of leader models do not apply to the unit while it is embarked. Thus, the abilities that leader normally applies to weapons equipped by models in the unit do not apply when Firing Deck is used to "borrow" the weapons.

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
His idea is the weapons on impulsor have the sustained hit and as impulsor uses their guns it includes sustained hit.

However as unit inside transport(unlike reserve) can't be affected in any way one can easily arque gaining sustained hit is being affected.

Azrael is leading the Unit, so he's part of the unit - and in fact the Impulsor can even choose to use Azrael's gun along with up to five 5 others.

If Sicarius is leading a unit and thus gives a Tac Squad SCOUTS 6" and they pile in a transport, the transport gets the 6" move because he gave the entire unit SCOUTS 6" during the Declare Formations step - much like Azrael gives his unit Sustained Hits during that same step. He does not stop LEADING the unit while they're in the transport, does he?

But weapon gaining rule is affecting that unit and unit can't be affected in any way.

So azrael is leading unit but he isn't affecting unit by giving the gun.

Scout thing works because rule specifically allows it. What rule specifically overrides "can't be affected in any way" for Azrael buff?

 alextroy wrote:
That is a convincing argument if not for:

EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move
within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.

Since the unit cannot be affected in any way while embarked, the leader abilities of leader models do not apply to the unit while it is embarked. Thus, the abilities that leader normally applies to weapons equipped by models in the unit do not apply when Firing Deck is used to "borrow" the weapons.

And I'm about 75/25 that's how they'd FAQ it for RAI. Maybe 67/33. But the guns have X while Y is leading. This starts in the Declare Formations step and lasts for the duration of the battle/while Y is leading X per the Leader/bespoke rule. Embarking does not end Leader.

That Leader will then attach to that Bodyguard unit for the duration of the battle and is said to be leading that unit. Each Bodyguard unit can only have one Leader attached to it

Firing Deck specifically points to the unit's gun, then unit is still being led, the gun has X.
For the Duration Of The Battle also sounds like it includes any turns the unit is embarked, because it is part of the duration of the battle.

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
That is a convincing argument if not for:

EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move
within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.

Since the unit cannot be affected in any way while embarked, the leader abilities of leader models do not apply to the unit while it is embarked. Thus, the abilities that leader normally applies to weapons equipped by models in the unit do not apply when Firing Deck is used to "borrow" the weapons.

And I'm about 75/25 that's how they'd FAQ it for RAI. Maybe 67/33. But the guns have X while Y is leading. This starts in the Declare Formations step and lasts for the duration of the battle/while Y is leading X per the Leader/bespoke rule. Embarking does not end Leader.

That Leader will then attach to that Bodyguard unit for the duration of the battle and is said to be leading that unit. Each Bodyguard unit can only have one Leader attached to it

Firing Deck specifically points to the unit's gun, then unit is still being led, the gun has X.
For the Duration Of The Battle also sounds like it includes any turns the unit is embarked, because it is part of the duration of the battle.

Is Azrael leading the Impulsor unit?

If not, the Impulsor unit can not get [sustained hits 1]

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
That is a convincing argument if not for:

EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move
within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.

Since the unit cannot be affected in any way while embarked, the leader abilities of leader models do not apply to the unit while it is embarked. Thus, the abilities that leader normally applies to weapons equipped by models in the unit do not apply when Firing Deck is used to "borrow" the weapons.

And I'm about 75/25 that's how they'd FAQ it for RAI. Maybe 67/33. But the guns have X while Y is leading. This starts in the Declare Formations step and lasts for the duration of the battle/while Y is leading X per the Leader/bespoke rule. Embarking does not end Leader.

That Leader will then attach to that Bodyguard unit for the duration of the battle and is said to be leading that unit. Each Bodyguard unit can only have one Leader attached to it

Firing Deck specifically points to the unit's gun, then unit is still being led, the gun has X.
For the Duration Of The Battle also sounds like it includes any turns the unit is embarked, because it is part of the duration of the battle.

Yeah azrael is in unit.but inside transport he isn't giving effect to gun because unit can't be affected in any way. So the gun profile is what datasheet has.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
That is a convincing argument if not for:

EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move
within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.

Since the unit cannot be affected in any way while embarked, the leader abilities of leader models do not apply to the unit while it is embarked. Thus, the abilities that leader normally applies to weapons equipped by models in the unit do not apply when Firing Deck is used to "borrow" the weapons.

And I'm about 75/25 that's how they'd FAQ it for RAI. Maybe 67/33. But the guns have X while Y is leading. This starts in the Declare Formations step and lasts for the duration of the battle/while Y is leading X per the Leader/bespoke rule. Embarking does not end Leader.

That Leader will then attach to that Bodyguard unit for the duration of the battle and is said to be leading that unit. Each Bodyguard unit can only have one Leader attached to it

Firing Deck specifically points to the unit's gun, then unit is still being led, the gun has X.
For the Duration Of The Battle also sounds like it includes any turns the unit is embarked, because it is part of the duration of the battle.

Is Azrael leading the Impulsor unit?

If not, the Impulsor unit can not get [sustained hits 1]

He doesn't have to, the Impulsor is using the (Hellblaster whatever unit) weapons which Azrael is leading, and giving Sustained Hits to.

Except Firing deck says:

FIRING DECK
Some transports have firing hatches, ports or platforms from which embarked passengers can shoot.

Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’ listed in their abilities. Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it. Then, for each of those embarked models, you can select one ranged weapon that embarked model is equipped with. Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it counts as being equipped with all of the weapons you selected in this way, in addition to its other weapons.

So it is the transport that counts as being equipped with all of the weapons you selected in this way, in addition to its other weapons. If the transport is the one with the equipped weapon, it cant be a part of the unit that AZ is leading.

Also "Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked."

This needs an FAQ I reckon. Until then i'll be playing it however my opponent wants to play it or getting clarification from the TO. Honestly I think this can be interpreted either way with equal validity and we don't know what's intended.

I want to say 'well yeah of course they should get the leader buff' but the case of the ork mek buffing the vehicle, and the firing deck guns gaining that buff, gives me pause.

It doesn’t need an FAQ.

Think of it this way:

- The vehicle counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside. You use the gun profiles given.
- The vehicle is not being lead by anyone. Therefore you don’t modify these gun profiles or add rules.

What’s needing an FAQ there, short of people trying it on?

It needs an FAQ 'cos it's confusing. Transport rules always are it seems.

It is just confusing enough that a Rules Commentary entry would have been really useful.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t need an FAQ.

Think of it this way:

- The vehicle counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside. You use the gun profiles given.
- The vehicle is not being lead by anyone. Therefore you don’t modify these gun profiles or add rules.

What’s needing an FAQ there, short of people trying it on?

It counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside - the guns of the squad inside have a "new" profile because they're being led by Azrael. The vehicle gets (counts as getting) guns with that profile because the profile of the guns/weapons were altered. Right now each weapon profile is unique. The bolter/bolt/Sisters/Legionnaire/Whatever Rifle are all unique. And now the Plasma Incinerato and the Azrael Led Plasma Incinerator are also different.

Breton wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t need an FAQ.

Think of it this way:

- The vehicle counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside. You use the gun profiles given.
- The vehicle is not being lead by anyone. Therefore you don’t modify these gun profiles or add rules.

What’s needing an FAQ there, short of people trying it on?

It counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside - the guns of the squad inside have a "new" profile because they're being led by Azrael. The vehicle gets (counts as getting) guns with that profile because the profile of the guns/weapons were altered. Right now each weapon profile is unique. The bolter/bolt/Sisters/Legionnaire/Whatever Rifle are all unique. And now the Plasma Incinerato and the Azrael Led Plasma Incinerator are also different.

Except the profile of the guns of the squad inside do not have sustained hits. So your assessment is not correct.

"Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked."

Since "units cannot... be affected in any way while they are embarked." The leader does not give his squad the sustained hits while they are embarked.

Bottom line is that the vehicle will not have sustained hits because of AZ being attached to an embarked unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t need an FAQ.

Think of it this way:

- The vehicle counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside. You use the gun profiles given.
- The vehicle is not being lead by anyone. Therefore you don’t modify these gun profiles or add rules.

What’s needing an FAQ there, short of people trying it on?

It counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside - the guns of the squad inside have a "new" profile because they're being led by Azrael. The vehicle gets (counts as getting) guns with that profile because the profile of the guns/weapons were altered. Right now each weapon profile is unique. The bolter/bolt/Sisters/Legionnaire/Whatever Rifle are all unique. And now the Plasma Incinerato and the Azrael Led Plasma Incinerator are also different.

Except the profile of the guns of the squad inside do not have sustained hits. So your assessment is not correct.

"Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked."

Since "units cannot... be affected in any way while they are embarked." The leader does not give his squad the sustained hits while they are embarked.

Bottom line is that the vehicle will not have sustained hits because of AZ being attached to an embarked unit.

Yeah, lets go over the same ground. Leading is for the duration of the game. They're embarked during the game. The Transport specifies the weapons of the embarked squad. The squad has Sustained Hits on their weapons for the duration of the game.

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t need an FAQ.

Think of it this way:

- The vehicle counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside. You use the gun profiles given.
- The vehicle is not being lead by anyone. Therefore you don’t modify these gun profiles or add rules.

What’s needing an FAQ there, short of people trying it on?

It counts as gaining the guns of the squad inside - the guns of the squad inside have a "new" profile because they're being led by Azrael. The vehicle gets (counts as getting) guns with that profile because the profile of the guns/weapons were altered. Right now each weapon profile is unique. The bolter/bolt/Sisters/Legionnaire/Whatever Rifle are all unique. And now the Plasma Incinerato and the Azrael Led Plasma Incinerator are also different.

Except the profile of the guns of the squad inside do not have sustained hits. So your assessment is not correct.

"Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked."

Since "units cannot... be affected in any way while they are embarked." The leader does not give his squad the sustained hits while they are embarked.

Bottom line is that the vehicle will not have sustained hits because of AZ being attached to an embarked unit.

Yeah, lets go over the same ground. Leading is for the duration of the game. They're embarked during the game. The Transport specifies the weapons of the embarked squad. The squad has Sustained Hits on their weapons for the duration of the game.

This of course does not matter since "units cannot... be affected in any way while they are embarked." The leader does not give his squad the sustained hits while they are embarked.

Bottom line is that the vehicle will not have sustained hits because of AZ being attached to an embarked unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
This of course does not matter since "units cannot... be affected in any way while they are embarked." The leader does not give his squad the sustained hits while they are embarked.

Bottom line is that the vehicle will not have sustained hits because of AZ being attached to an embarked unit.

And Leaders are said to be leading their units for the duration of the battle - which includes the time they're embarked. It could go either way. I was merely explaining the confusion is understandable. It needs a FAQ, it could go either way. I see two times out of three they say no, one time they say yes.