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Hi there,
As I was reading the excellent "Know No Fear" Horus Heresy book, Gulliman explains that the council of Nikaea let them weaker against the Ruinous Powers, just in time for the beginning of the war, and that it might have been made on purpose. And it's stated, in a way or another, several times in the book.
Which actually makes a lot of sense !
However, having read about the Council, I don't remember any "invisible hand" of Chaos leading the Council, it is quite the opposite: The Emperor Himself decreed the Edict, and not all of the traitor primarchs opposed the use of the Librarian (which would make sense, in order to favorise their future rebellion, even if I understand that they weren't necessarily corrupted and scheming consciously yet).
Do we have more informations corroboring Gulliman's view ?
Thanks !

In Prospero Burns, a daemon manipulated events somehow - we’re not sure.

The Council was the culmination of a long "experiment" by the Emperor in allowing the Legions to utilise Psykers.

The manipulations of the Gods aren't necessarily going to be direct or even short term for that matter.
Think of Mortation, sent to a world ruled by sorcery-wielding Xenos that would result in him bearing an unbridled hatred of Psykers and sorcery.
Magnus was manipulated by Tzeentch multiple times in order to gain more knowledge and encouraged his Legion to find their Tutelaries which were literally just Daemons in a different form that played the long con with the XVth until they revealed their true nature at Prospero.
The Changeling even showed up to Nikea and attacked both the Wolves and Custodes while disguised as Amon to stir up trouble for the Thousand Sons.

But you are right in that it was ultimately the decision of the Emperor to ban the use of Psykers and that short-sightedness cost the Loyalists dearly.
Baser human instincts of fear, distrust, and superstition led to the Emperor's decision. The majority did not favour Psykers within the Legions and the testimony of the Space Wolves, the first betrayal in the eyes of the XVth, sealed their fate.

During the Great Crusade, Thousand Sons tended to have Familiars, which were essentially Daemons. This of course greatly annoyed The Emperor, and is given as the reason why Nikaea went the way it did.

So Guilliman could be right. That the Familiars (they do have a proper name, but I can’t recall it) were part of a ploy to push Magnus ever further into studying Chaos, as they revealed secrets to their owners. Making it Sorcery, not Psychic, and thus Extra Naughty.

Indeed, I forgot about the deamon in the Council !
Yeah, the tutelaries were little bast*rds, I clearly remember what they did on Prospero but I didn't remember they played a role in the Emperor's decision ? Were they even mentioned ?

I think it’s more their use, and the Thousand Sons not seeing them for what they truly were was the deciding factor.

The unbridled thirst for knowledge left the Thousand Sons open to literally making pacts with Daemons.
Again, this could have been stopped if the Emperor had actually explained what the Warp was to Magnus at the very least but He was waaaay too paranoid.

Or he realised Magnus was overly curious, and over confident, and so perhaps entirely doomed to dabble even if he knew the full truth. Hence “stop it all” was arguably the best solution to a growing concern.

I think you could make the argument that Tzeentch's feeding Magnus's curiosity and (probably) having a hand in the catastrophic mutations of the Thousand Sons were actions taken partly to encourage the council of Nikea to go the way it did. Basically, Magnus's hubris way pretty transparent and unconvincing, and other legions had witnissed a Thousand Son going full chaos spawn here and there. So the Thousand Sons were arguably set up to be a big, flashing warning signing as to why psychic powers are bad and people who use them are obviously foolish.

Every primarch's reaction, in a nutshell:

Lorgar: So long as they don't stop my insidious agenda.. I mean "Chaplain Program", I'm fine.
Sanguinius: I'm a Psyker, I know I'm a Psyker, and my ability let's me see how this will sort of pan out.. So, all Librarians are now basically battle brothers and will "Not" use their abilities in combat.
Conrad Curze: No Librarians- I would never curse another with my sight
Leman Russ: Our rune priests are not warlocks, they are sacred rune priests!
Jaghatai Khan: What Russ said, only they are "Stormseers".
Magnus: But.. but... powers!!
Fulgrim: Psykers are a mutant strain and that would not be perfection. Never mind we need more apothecaries to solve this glaring geneflaw in our brothers..
Vulkan: Ha ha ah! Yes, our battle brothers can summon fire from our homeworld like drakes! Most agreeable to torch Eldar children with! Ha ha ah!
Mortarion: Serves them right! No good psyker xenos overlord I didn't get to kill.. grumble, grumble..
Alpharius/ Omegon: We got rid of our librarians a while ago, and would neeeever use them to see into important minds and/or train our legion to combat psykers so they can't see what we're thinking... Honest!
Rogal Dorn: Whatever you say, Dad.
Horus: Meh.
Purturabo: What's a Psyker? A kind of machine?
Ferrus Manus: What Peter Turbo said, but cyborg implants.
Guilliman: My upcoming book on combat doctrine has taken all situations into account! At this moment, Librarians being banned will not. I repeat WILL NOT change the outcome of any major battle!
Corvus Corax: We just have these guys that can make people extra stealthy.. but we're all stealthy! No way my ability to Wraithstep has ANY possible conection to the warp!
Angron: I already killed all mine.. soooo...

I was under the impression that the main (only?) purpose of Council of Nikaea was to stop Magnus from torching the Webway on Terra.

In the Horus Heresy books about Magnus there's an exchange where the Emperor says something along the lines of "How much clearer could I have been in asking you to never use the warp again? Bringing all your brothers into a single spot for a single purpose of telling you stop. You should have trusted me and now you've damned us all".

It seemed that the Emperor foresaw the way Magnus would ruin his great work and tried to change the future.

Nikea was to decide if the experiment of Psykers in the Legions was a good idea.
Remember, there were no Psykers in the Imperial Army only Navigators and Astropaths.
The Emperor was even trying to build the Imperial Webway so that humanity wouldn't have to rely on them for transport and communication.
The Long Night saw many worlds dominated by Rogue Psykers or invaded by Warp monsters because they couldn't control their powers. The fear was very real and very understandable.

Psykers in Legions would’ve benefitted Chaos just as much as Loyalists not using them.

Because any Psyker using their powers is a warp conduit, literally channeling the stuff of Chaos. And any conduit, with just a nudge and the right circumstances can become a gateway.

So had Nikaea gone the other way? The threat shifts, and still isn’t removed. Indeed, in certain ways it could’ve been far, far worse, with fleshy warp portals potentially appearing in otherwise secure locations.

I'd argue that isn't the case.

Allowing a Librarius doesn't mean unrestricted use of powers, indeed the White Scars and Blood Angels both proved that with discipline and training, Astartes Psykers were extremely useful assests. Technically the Wolves also proved this point but were just wrong about where their powers came from.

The issue was Magnus taking it too far and saying that Legion Psykers should be free to roam the Sea of Souls in search of enlightenment with no restrictions.

They’re still a doorway.

Rile up the warp, and the risk increases. Such as the Ruinstorm. When using your psychic powers in battle, shortcuts become more tempting. You may become more desperate and push yourself just a little more.

You remain a potential doorway. The only question is how strong the kick has to be to get you off your hinges.

Every single one of those Psykers still exists though and no specialised training or protective gear leaves them in an objectively worse state than before.

Psykers aren't always identified as such when they are recruited and many develop their abilities during the initial training stages of Legion recruitment.

Plus as I said, the Wolves, Blood Angels and Scars all proved that a dedicated Librarius could work. Indeed in 40k it does work and even with the usual Psyker issues, Astartes don't nearly explode as much as baseline humans.

Yes, the Legions would stop recruiting known Psykers but they would then have to execute every Aspirant who showed signs of the ability to fully prevent it from manifesting.

The risk is greatly reduced when not actively channelling, whether you’re fighting Daemons or not. Once your channeling, possession and fleshy warp gate risks increase.

The post-heresy equipment points to this. Psychic Hood, Force Weapons.

Historically both designed and manufactured to help control and protect.

Both Force Weapons and Psychic Hoods existed during the Heresy though.

Again, yes the risk increases when a Psyker uses their powers but when the alternative is no defence or powerful weapon against the Daemonic or beings with Warp based abilities like Enslavers, it was the wrong decision to can the Librarius just because Magnus was a spoiled child.

I’m not arguing it was. Just that the decision simply had a different impact in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, a well trained and practiced Librarium would’ve been a useful edge against Daemons, and buys the opportunity to nullify enemy psychic shenanigans, like summing MOAR Daemons.

But, at the commensurate risk of Chaos ending up using your own Psykers to create warp breaches unless you’re exceptionally careful and lucky. And the Heretic Psykers may very well have some kind of pact in place to better protect them or grant them greater and more subtle power in that sphere.

The use of unleashed psykers in battle was part of why Prospero got so fluffy as it did.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But, at the commensurate risk of Chaos ending up using your own Psykers to create warp breaches unless you’re exceptionally careful and lucky. And the Heretic Psykers may very well have some kind of pact in place to better protect them or grant them greater and more subtle power in that sphere.

The White Scars and Blood Angels never had any problems with Deamons possessing their Psykers because yet again they were well-trained and regulated by Legion command.

The only reason the Emperor said no was because of Magnus and the XVth which was a problem caused by the Emperor's hands-off approach to his not-sons-but-sort-of-sons. Having one Legion of unrestricted Psykers but another 15 (excluding the World Eaters and Death Guard) with the tools and knowledge to keep the XVth in check wouldn't have been an issue.

Psykers aren't the problem, untrained and unrestricted use of their powers is which is why the Thousand Sons so spectacularly messed up the way they did.

Bit of a lore question here but:

What was up with the WE Librarians / psykers?? I've picked up that Angron hated / strongly disliked them and killed them prior to Nikaea.. But then IIRC during his ascension to Demon Princedom every WE Librarian threw their powers together to basically "tug-o-war" his soul with Khorne / Lorgar. So is the mass-murder of psykers pre Nikaea an exageration / misnomer, or did the WE just re-recruit psykers after Nikaea to give the emperor or a big middle finger?

I do know that the nails had explosive results with psykers, but I haven't read any HH books.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not arguing it was. Just that the decision simply had a different impact in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, a well trained and practiced Librarium would’ve been a useful edge against Daemons, and buys the opportunity to nullify enemy psychic shenanigans, like summing MOAR Daemons.

But, at the commensurate risk of Chaos ending up using your own Psykers to create warp breaches unless you’re exceptionally careful and lucky. And the Heretic Psykers may very well have some kind of pact in place to better protect them or grant them greater and more subtle power in that sphere.

And the thousand sons we’re not going to stop at well managed librarium. They consorted with demons as sought power through the warp. It would be like asking an alcoholic to limit them selves to 2 pints a day.

The emperor may have known that TS would break the ruling so he had an excuse to destroy the legion hoping Magnus would be killed and therefore not destroy the imperial webway project

 morganfreeman wrote:
Bit of a lore question here but:

What was up with the WE Librarians / psykers?? I've picked up that Angron hated / strongly disliked them and killed them prior to Nikaea.. But then IIRC during his ascension to Demon Princedom every WE Librarian threw their powers together to basically "tug-o-war" his soul with Khorne / Lorgar. So is the mass-murder of psykers pre Nikaea an exageration / misnomer, or did the WE just re-recruit psykers after Nikaea to give the emperor or a big middle finger?

I do know that the nails had explosive results with psykers, but I haven't read any HH books.

Well, Psykers come in all sorts of different flavours and strengths. Very low level ones may feel the warp, but can’t channel it in any particular way without extreme stimulus.

So…both could be true. As in, any Brother of noticeable psychic ability got all murdered as a result. But that still leaves a bunch of genetic descendants of little ability, but complete faith in their Primarch to manifest all of a sudden.

The World Eaters didn't explicitly murder all their Psykers prior to Angron's ascension to Daemonhood.

The Butcher's Nails made their brains explode if they tried to implant them which set them even further aside from their brethren. It also didn't help that even the baseline psychic "hum" as it were made the Nails bite in non-Psyker Astartes so even being around a Psyker was a trigger for violence.

Many were killed in random acts of violence or simply died then went unreplaced because of the aforementioned blowing up of heads being messy and annoying.
They still had their Psychic Hoods and Force Weapons because Angron literally didn't care if they lived or died. They were the lowest of his sons and did not even enter his thoughts.
The last Librarians of the World Eaters were killed by Angron and Lorgar on Nuceria.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Bit of a lore question here but:

What was up with the WE Librarians / psykers?? I've picked up that Angron hated / strongly disliked them and killed them prior to Nikaea.. But then IIRC during his ascension to Demon Princedom every WE Librarian threw their powers together to basically "tug-o-war" his soul with Khorne / Lorgar. So is the mass-murder of psykers pre Nikaea an exageration / misnomer, or did the WE just re-recruit psykers after Nikaea to give the emperor or a big middle finger?

I do know that the nails had explosive results with psykers, but I haven't read any HH books.

I just listened to Slave of Nuceria and remember that each Primarch has innate Psyker/ special abilities. Angron's was actually an empath and he could calm and boost the morale of his fellow gladiators. This was part of the reason the Nails were killing him. His librarians inherited some of this and were able to make him sleep when he was going on a rampage. The incident with Gehenna allowed the Legion's apothecary/ tech adepts to implant the Nails successfully into other memebers, but there was a small contingent (Mostly Terra- born Warhounds and Librarians) that said nope, we should NOT do this- but rest of Legion, especially Kharn, wanted to have their Father's approval. Road to hell and all.. So, those that rebelled most likely got the typical treatment of traitors.