ZergSmasher wrote: I'll probably want that new starter (although I definitely don't need MORE Morannon Orcs or another Troll- oh who am I kidding, I love Trolls!), and I'll probably get at least the Rohan battleforce, as I need the plastic Eomer and more Rohan models (particularly the infantry for the Defenders of Helm's Deep LL). And I probably want Rumil and Orophin for my Lorien army (which I'll probably order at the same time as I get the Dragon Emperor of Rhun to save on shipping).
My wallet is in the corner crying...
With complete new Miniatures, the Osgiliath Set would had been an Instand Buy for me...
Fergie0044 wrote: Hope the battle host boxes are popular and are expanded. I'd snap up ones for Dwarfs, Corsairs or Harad in a second!
I suspect they want to keep them entirely plastic, which rules out a lot of factions if they stick to the hero & warband(s) formula. I'd love to see some plastic heroes for moria or khazad dum but I doubt it'll happen (if we ignore the balrog...)
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I wish they wouldn't replace Pelannor and instead just have a different starter box. A shame its going away.
Eh with mordor side almost same it hardly makes sense to do 2 almost identical sets...They don't do that in 40k/aos side either.
You might have better luck getting smaller sets from same overall model like in 40k/aos side but not much room for that especially if heroes are one sprue per side. Faramir + rangers vs gothmog on foot+half the orcs, then full set minus terrain and full set for example.
But even that is expecting too much from minor game. It's not 40k/aos level game.
Since these boxes just scoop up and use existing models, I don't see what would be so hard about having multiple starters for Middle Earth. They have multiple start collecting boxes for 40K, this would be no more difficult. Other than eventually they just don't sell anymore because everyone who wanted one, bought one, and new players are actually nearly as rare as hen's teeth for GW.
Except the 40k/aos are parts of same set. Equilavent would be say faramir and half gondors vs foot gothhmog and half mordor orcs. If foot gothmog and faramir can't be separated from rest doesn't work.
You don't have 2 big starters in 40k/aos. Don't expect gw to put more support to side game than their main cash makers.
tneva82 wrote: Except the 40k/aos are parts of same set. Equilavent would be say faramir and half gondors vs foot gothhmog and half mordor orcs. If foot gothmog and faramir can't be separated from rest doesn't work.
You don't have 2 big starters in 40k/aos. Don't expect gw to put more support to side game than their main cash makers.
Well, all of that's correct, but I would say GW might think about thinking slightly outside the box. If for no other reason than this game isn't that big and doesn't sell that much. They're all actually just little plastic men, there is no difference between any of them, they could sell five army vs. army starter sets just as easily as they can sell a 40K Start Collecting box. The distinction is entirely in their heads.
But I think their stuff is overpriced and tend to think they need to bundle it more aggressively in general.
tneva82 wrote: Except the 40k/aos are parts of same set. Equilavent would be say faramir and half gondors vs foot gothhmog and half mordor orcs. If foot gothmog and faramir can't be separated from rest doesn't work.
You don't have 2 big starters in 40k/aos. Don't expect gw to put more support to side game than their main cash makers.
Well, all of that's correct, but I would say GW might think about thinking slightly outside the box. If for no other reason than this game isn't that big and doesn't sell that muchl.
The fact we're getting a new starter and army boxes should be telling you the opposite of that.
Well, all of that's correct, but I would say GW might think about thinking slightly outside the box. If for no other reason than this game isn't that big and doesn't sell that muchl.
The fact we're getting a new starter and army boxes should be telling you the opposite of that.
When the great majority of the game’s releases are either Forgeworld or repackaging of 15+ year old plastics, then I’m inclined to believe either sales are low relative to other systems or that GW is specifically avoiding investing in MESBG models because of the license fee.
another good reason for not making many more sculpts may well be how hard it is (now) to get them approved
when LoTR was new and fresh and only just released the licensors would have had plenty of folk assigned to keep the licencees happy and buying new licences
now there are going to be far fewer of them, and they're probably also dealing with a whole bunch of other old films too
(and i'm not sure if only new line will have to approve things?)
so a slow release pace may not only be down to a limited amount of production time
(edit: read up on the whole Prodos Alien vs Predator saga and all the trouble they had getting approvals back from Fox to see how much of a pain approvals can be)
Very excited for all the hints Adam was dropping in the stream especially him mentioning "maybe a return to Last Alliance" twice. At this point I'd put money on new Numenor and High Elf infantry kits in the future. Plus, Elrond in Last Alliance armor instead of Third Age armor (as featured in the current Lords of Rivendell pack) with the herald of Gil Galad is so obviously the tip of the iceberg here.
Pelennor had a good four year run, and I agree with Rob listening to the community about the lack of terrain in Pelennor. He opted for less models, but new scenery, and a more involved campaign, so that the new starter is more of a complete experience for new players.
I'll definitely get it, despite not needing Morannon orcs or WOMT _at all_, as the updated rulebook is nice, plus... fully modular Ray Dranfield designed Gondorian scenery with options to make intact buildings or ruins is the top of my "didn't even know I wanted it" list. And as an insane collector, I Gotta Have Em All for every SBG sculpt, and I'm sure the starter will be cheaper than waiting and buying the components I want separately.
I'm very happy they're bringing back the 'starter army' Battlehosts sets for new players - tbh that's how I achieved some chunks of my current massive collection back in the day, so even more good news for new players. Obviously not designed for veterans like myself, but I'm not going to decry an easier buy in for those testing the waters with SBG.
I have to say, if they do end up releasing new Last Alliance models, I'm going to jump all in on Númenor. I've always loved the look of those guys. Hopefully the get some Banners and Commanders too!
Last Alliance with complete new range would be awesome. But if they work on a complete new range for it, they could spare the stream and a new Starter Box for this?
RazorEdge wrote: Last Alliance with complete new range would be awesome. But if they work on a complete new range for it, they could spare the stream and a new Starter Box for this?
Considering the Last Alliance accounts for only a few moments of the six films the license encompasses, I doubt it would be starter box worthy, whereas Osgiliath covers two films as well as the fact it changed hands several times during the War of the Ring. But maybe a 40k/AOS style campaign box for LA? That's wishlisting of course, as I imagine merely just a new set to release alongside a LA campaign supplement.
The war scenes from The Lord of the Rings films were always special, but I much preferred the Fellowship's journey through Moria, or Sam and Frodo's hike to mount doom.
RazorEdge wrote: Last Alliance would need a mostly complett overhaul (except that new Elrond and the High Evles Cavalry from Hobbit?) and new set on Models:
My guess would be:
GW High Elves, plastic sprue redo, 10-12 figs per sprue
GW Numenorean infantry, plastic sprue, 10-12 figs per sprue
GW/FW Elendil, Isildur, Gil-Galad in plastic
GW/FW Sauron in plastic
FW Anarion
FW Numenorean Cavalry
frankelee wrote: Since these boxes just scoop up and use existing models, I don't see what would be so hard about having multiple starters for Middle Earth. They have multiple start collecting boxes for 40K, this would be no more difficult. Other than eventually they just don't sell anymore because everyone who wanted one, bought one, and new players are actually nearly as rare as hen's teeth for GW.
Probably because they want the boxes to be all plastic, which rules out a lot of the heroes in the range. I guess they could use the new Elrond for a future High Elf box? Use the company of Thorin plastics for an army of Thror box?
RazorEdge wrote: Last Alliance would need a mostly complett overhaul (except that new Elrond and the High Evles Cavalry from Hobbit?) and new set on Models:
My guess would be:
GW High Elves, plastic sprue redo, 10-12 figs per sprue
GW Numenorean infantry, plastic sprue, 10-12 figs per sprue
GW/FW Elendil, Isildur, Gil-Galad in plastic
GW/FW Sauron in plastic
FW Anarion
FW Numenorean Cavalry
ImAGeek wrote: I’ve a feeling new troops would look a lot less appealing for a lot of people with the price tag they’d also come with.
We already get new troops with insane Forgeworld pricing. A proper GW plastic release would only be cheaper by comparison. I for one don’t touch Forgeworld.
SamusDrake wrote: The war scenes from The Lord of the Rings films were always special, but I much preferred the Fellowship's journey through Moria, or Sam and Frodo's hike to mount doom.
A Middle Earth "Quest" game could be a thing.
With the Quest of the Ringbearer book you already have exactly that, no?
We’re doing something very special for this very special box – running an advance pre-order.
The Lord of the Rings Battle of Osgiliath is dropping in December – but there will also be a two-week pre-order window this September, running from the 10th until 8:00 BST on the 26th.
This longer pre-order window means that you can relax, safe in the knowledge you’ve secured your The Lord of the Rings Battle of Osgiliath boxed set in time for Christmas. There will also be a regular pre-order window at the end of the year, one week before the box hits the shelves of your local Warhammer store or independent stockist.
Thats'..odd? I don't quite see the purpose of doing a two week pre-order 3 months before the release and a seperate third week pre-order the week before it's actually released.
Hm, i wonder if the Sep order time will be direct only, to try and get one up on third parties before the Dec release.
With the Quest of the Ringbearer book you already have exactly that, no?
Sadly, I haven't the foggiest. I've got the old Return of the King manual from ages past but not actually jumped in with the game yet.
Whats that like then? Any good?
SBG has primarily been a narrative game since it's launch.
Over the last 21 years there's been an absolutely insane number of campaigns and scenarios specifically for recreating the films and books. Quest of the Ringbearer is a massive campaign that takes you through the LOTR films.
Plenty of wargame companies use a preorder system (see GMT's P500) to gauge interest in a product and determine how large a print run is needed. This sounds like GW doing something ... not quite the same, but similar.
callidusx3 wrote: Plenty of wargame companies use a preorder system (see GMT's P500) to gauge interest in a product and determine how large a print run is needed. This sounds like GW doing something ... not quite the same, but similar.
Yeah, that aspect is fine (though the timing seems weird), I just don't get why they aren't specifically making it clear that's what they're doing.
Is it tied into whatever production/distribution problems are making a mess of the (still ongoing) chaos release? And why Warcry is a two week but while-supplies-last preorder?
A little transparency would go a long way at this point. (though a pre-preorder for the December release makes it feel like a production issue, not a distribution one)
Voss wrote: Wait... so...
you can pre-order in December for the release in December
Or you can pre-pre-order it during two random weeks in September for... the release in December?
I guess it means they can better manage order expectations and have a pile ready to go for shipping, but they don't... actually say that.
I expect to hear angry ranting a week or so after the September pre-order that people haven't gotten their boxes.
Agreed. They need to be clearer in-so-far as to what the preorder in september means. on their pages. Otherwise there is already built-in backlash from those who don't understand.
Preorder in September and they'll likely have your copy made by the time it comes to December dispatch,
preorder in December you risk the 'oops this was more popular than expected, some folk get their toys, some have to wait a few weeks/months while we make more/wait for more boxes to arrive from china to pack the sprues in)
We’re doing something very special for this very special box – running an advance pre-order.
The Lord of the Rings Battle of Osgiliath is dropping in December – but there will also be a two-week pre-order window this September, running from the 10th until 8:00 BST on the 26th.
This longer pre-order window means that you can relax, safe in the knowledge you’ve secured your The Lord of the Rings Battle of Osgiliath boxed set in time for Christmas. There will also be a regular pre-order window at the end of the year, one week before the box hits the shelves of your local Warhammer store or independent stockist.
I can see this as a bit of an experiment for the big box releases for Games Workshop. If it works, instead of having to do a Made to Order run after the release date like they did for Indomitus, they have a better idea of the quantities that they need and everyone who wants one for Christmas can get one.
yeah I don't get the confusion over a 3 month pre-order. Sure it's not something GW normally does, but it's absolutely in good taste to secure your product rather than have to hope a store near you got an extra copy.
SBG has primarily been a narrative game since it's launch.
Over the last 21 years there's been an absolutely insane number of campaigns and scenarios specifically for recreating the films and books. Quest of the Ringbearer is a massive campaign that takes you through the LOTR films.
Ooooooooh I see. Well thats good. Had a look at the first narrative( on youtube ) and it was Farmer Maggot against the evil forces of Frodo and his accomplices in petty crime.
There was me, cynically, thinking they'd brought the release forward to get ahead of the financially crippling rise in energy prices in the UK and get one last big payday before October 1st.
Well lets take an educated guess using the Isengard box. It's a box of scouts, warriors and Saruman. Total cost of £81 retail. So starter box discount, i'm going to take a stab at £60.
Assuming these get third party releases at a further 20%, could be around £48.
No. They're starter boxes, like the start collectings. These are meant to entice new players. I would expect one item in each box to be free over retail or close to it.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: No. They're starter boxes, like the start collectings. These are meant to entice new players. I would expect one item in each box to be free over retail or close to it.
If you figure 60 pounds 80e would be about same. Think relatively speaking better as pound to e ratio would be close to real and not gw inflated...
Would 2 to 3 months be enough to expand the print run if needed? GW may want to do a smaller print run since it isn't a core game, while at the same time avoiding it instantly selling out and becoming an unavailable mess like Cursed City.
I don't know if it will expand the print run. I think it's just to make sure that anyone who orders in September is going to be guaranteed one for the Christmas period. If you order in December you might run the risk of it getting back ordered.
Bit late to the party, but it's strange seeing those wonderful new Glorfindel sculpts and the significantly less wonderful new Guards of the Galadhrim Court in that same preview article. The former is probably among the best models they've released in recent years, while the latter look like off-brand or trainee sculpts. The Guards aren't completely terrible, but certainly rather flat and the proportions seem off. Wouldn't expect these two sets to be made by the same company, let alone released at the same time.
For the two pre-order windows, the way I read the post on WH page, the September pre-order is just to guarantee your copy before Christmas since it's a December release.
I'm sure part of it is a test so they know how many to produce. I could be wrong but I don't believe the MESBG demand is anywhere near that of 40K so it's a smart move to prevent over production.
Galadhrim Court guard do look terrible compared to the other releases. I just hope they plan a plastic starter with new sculpts for Numenor and Rivendell. Based on the Elrond spoiler video I think we have a shot.
If you watched the live stream the guy also made a comment about Gil-Gilad that also sounded like a promising figure in the future. It's all wishful thinking really.
RazorEdge wrote: I still wonder why they put that Banner Bearer in that Elrond set...
Because that particular banner is Gil-galads personal colours and Elrond was Gil-galads banner bearer during that time period. It's not really shown in the movie, though I do believe there's some cut footage of him holding the banner in the prologue.
Its not Elrond, but it could certainly represent him in a narrative campaign. Otherwise it's just a funky banner to use.
They said the battlehosts were coming very soon after the stream. As for anything else, maybe a few unknown FW bits, but i wouldn't think anything else major this year.
Thranduil does have that big base with him, which probably increased his price - not so sure why Dain is so expensive comparatively, though. Is it just because he is listed as Character Series?
I rewatched the Preview for the Osgiliath Starter.
It his hairs combined with that red dot of paint which realy looks odd and stupid. In the Video you can see him without this red dot which looks absolute much better.
The Embracer group (owners of Admodee etc) has just bought up the LoTR/Hobbit/Middle Earth/Tolkien rights from the Saul Zaentz company who are the ones that provided the licence to New Line Cinema for the Peter Jackson LoTR movies etc
so while the Middle-Earth SBG is secure as long as the current (newly renewed) licence goes future renewals may be trickier
I doubt it. The licence GW has is set up with their own parameters based primarily on the movies etc. If any new games are made, it will be something totally different.
Minimal support and minimal effort for (I'm assuming) minimum sales.
That said, I've seen people make KoW armies out of The Elves and Rohan so I'm pretty sure seeing them make armies out of minas tirith models is not too far off.
Minimal support and minimal effort for (I'm assuming) minimum sales.
That said, I've seen people make KoW armies out of The Elves and Rohan so I'm pretty sure seeing them make armies out of minas tirith models is not too far off.
They look like standard Warhammer Fantasy movement trays from the past. A modern solution would be War of the Ring style MDF trays with round cutouts. You can get these from several manufacturers such as Sarissa Precision, Warbases or Litko.
They look like standard Warhammer Fantasy movement trays from the past. A modern solution would be War of the Ring style MDF trays with round cutouts. You can get these from several manufacturers such as Sarissa Precision, Warbases or Litko.
I went with the Renedra ones without cutouts as in KoW (like WHFB) human infantry have 20mm square bases. Renedra also have cutout bases these days. All in HIPS rather than MDF or perspex.
Since I use round bases because dual-use, my 100m frontage has 4 models instead of 5,
As KoW uses wound markers rather than model removal for casualties, it works better than having the wrong frontage in order to have the correct number of models.
That's almost double want they normally charge for a single Middle-earth MtO mini. $18-$22 being the norm. A mounted hero is generally $40. I hope this isn't to become the norm...
The Battle of Osgiliath has a very special advanced pre-order. It’s going to be available to order from the 10th of September until 8am BST on the 26th of September. Orders placed in this window should arrive before Christmas.
Ahh! The final fate of the witch-king is back next week too. Good thing I haven't ordered that Gandalf yet, I can get them both in one hit.
Nice to see they're bringing back the old Osgiliath ruins too. Good kit that one and it looks like they mesh up quite nicely with the new kit, looks wise. It looks like though that they might be combing it with the old Ruins of Middle-earth pack too. As the Osgiliath set didn't have the rubble scatter.
Arbitrator wrote: Those Dale dice are quite nice. The Rivendell ones seem quite tacky.
My thoughts exactly. I like the patterning on the blue, but the gold helmet just isn't well done.
But what's caught my attention is the M-E SBG painting intro minis. Wonder if they're something new we havent seen or if it's just WoMT/Morannon Orcs slightly repackaged
Snrub wrote: Not even going to speculate on Aus/NZ prices.
But what's caught my attention is the M-E SBG painting intro minis. Wonder if they're something new we havent seen or if it's just WoMT/Morannon Orcs slightly repackaged
There's no price quoted so are they just individual minis to order for painting in store like GW Stores currently do with a Primaris or Stormcast figure?
Somebody on Reddit thought $180 was equivalent for Osgiliath.
The Battlehosts are priced so well I can see a lot of people grabbing one of those, while the Battle for Osgiliath set is priced so poorly I can see no one grabbing it.
Reaper makes the same troll for $7, and building sections are more easily made with foam board, which with craft paint can outfit a whole table for like $10.
frankelee wrote: Somebody on Reddit thought $180 was equivalent for Osgiliath.
Absolutely no way that it is. Whoever said that just plugged it into a currency exchanger.
The Battlehosts are priced so well I can see a lot of people grabbing one of those, while the Battle for Osgiliath set is priced so poorly I can see no one grabbing it.
Core book was $60 by itself. And this features two sets, not just one, of the new scenery.
Reaper makes the same troll for $7, and building sections are more easily made with foam board, which with craft paint can outfit a whole table for like $10.
lol, Reaper models aren't as sharp as GW, but it's funny how a 20% improvement in details costs 500%.
Of course their new stuff like Reaper Black doesn't even give GW that much of an edge. More like 5%. And they put it them in blisters still so people can see for themselves before they buy it.
The Battle for Osgiliath would be something to wait until the half-off sale if it were an Age of Sigmar product, I don't know if they'll make enough for that here, but then again, you might not have to make many at that price.
frankelee wrote: lol, Reaper models aren't as sharp as GW, but it's funny how a 20% improvement in details costs 500%.
You said you can outfit a whole table "for like $10".
Hence my "and it will look like it too!" comment.
Of course their new stuff like Reaper Black doesn't even give GW that much of an edge. More like 5%. And they put it them in blisters still so people can see for themselves before they buy it.
Sure, and the GW Mordor Troll is on a plastic frame. It's not metal or finecast where a lot of work will be potentially necessary.
But you knew that, right?
The Battle for Osgiliath would be something to wait until the half-off sale if it were an Age of Sigmar product, I don't know if they'll make enough for that here, but then again, you might not have to make many at that price.
Maybe for you, but really it seems like you just want things at a deep discount no matter the quality no matter what system it is.
As it stands?
Getting two armies and enough scenery for the associated scenario book plus the core rulebook isn't necessarily the gamebreaker it is to others as it seems to be for you.
Battle for Osgiliath is less army content but a bit more usable in some ways. Pelennor gave you plenty of warriors seemingly without thinking about the fact that mounted models can be dismounted in LotR. The osgiliath set needs another leader on the evil side, but those are missing in plastic for all of the MESBG ranges.
Having some nice terrain is always good in a starter box too.
Commitz wrote: The osgiliath set needs another leader on the evil side, but those are missing in plastic for all of the MESBG ranges.
You can make the troll into a chieftain. That gives you your 2nd leader. Might not be ideal, but certainly makes the evil side playable straight out of the box.
Snrub wrote: Not even going to speculate on Aus/NZ prices.
Someone at my group said they saw it at an RRP of $350AU, which is $90 over what the direct conversion rate is.
That's just 35% more than what it's supposed to be! Be glad they didn't arbitrarily double the price, like they sometimes decide to do when they feel like gouging Australians particularly hard
Commitz wrote: Battle for Osgiliath is less army content but a bit more usable in some ways. Pelennor gave you plenty of warriors seemingly without thinking about the fact that mounted models can be dismounted in LotR. The osgiliath set needs another leader on the evil side, but those are missing in plastic for all of the MESBG ranges.
Having some nice terrain is always good in a starter box too.
I argue that it is a superior starter. Pelennor gave you three armies; one midsize Mordor, one tiny Rohan starter and one tiny Dead starter, and no scenery at all. Considering how _vital_ scenery is in SBG, I'm happy that Rob followed the community feedback and opted to swap out some infantry for scenery in the new starter. My only minor complaint is that the old Ruins scatter frame that is being bundled in the rerelease of Osgiliath ruins should also have been tossed into the starter for some more scatter terrain. Pelennor sets the wrong tone for new SBG players - games should have scads of terrain everywhere; Osgiliath is more on the right track. IMHO the (named) heroes ratio being off for Matched Play is barely a consideration as you should learn the game from Dan's included narrative scenarios before deciding which way to grow your force, plus the fact that any model can be a Captain if you want to ignore the narrative scenarios and jump right into competitive gaming.
Snrub wrote: Not even going to speculate on Aus/NZ prices.
Someone at my group said they saw it at an RRP of $350AU, which is $90 over what the direct conversion rate is.
That's just 35% more than what it's supposed to be! Be glad they didn't arbitrarily double the price, like they sometimes decide to do when they feel like gouging Australians particularly hard
There's a reason most MESBG games I play have more than a few 3d printed models in them.
frankelee wrote: lol, Reaper models aren't as sharp as GW, but it's funny how a 20% improvement in details costs 500%.
You said you can outfit a whole table "for like $10".
Hence my "and it will look like it too!" comment.
Yeah you need four official little GW building corners spread across an entire gaming table to make it NICE looking. People can't make good terrain with foam, cardboard, glue, and craft paint. Everyone knows that. Dude, tell me you're an inexperienced tabletop gamer without telling me you're an inexperienced tabletop gamer.
Of course their new stuff like Reaper Black doesn't even give GW that much of an edge. More like 5%. And they put it them in blisters still so people can see for themselves before they buy it.
Sure, and the GW Mordor Troll is on a plastic frame. It's not metal or finecast where a lot of work will be potentially necessary.
The Battle for Osgiliath would be something to wait until the half-off sale if it were an Age of Sigmar product, I don't know if they'll make enough for that here, but then again, you might not have to make many at that price.
Maybe for you, but really it seems like you just want things at a deep discount no matter the quality no matter what system it is.
As it stands?
Getting two armies and enough scenery for the associated scenario book plus the core rulebook isn't necessarily the gamebreaker it is to others as it seems to be for you.
Muh quality system.
Yeah, again dude, once you actually learn about tabletop games, maybe get to know some people who play them, you're going to discover wargamers can count. I've been doing this a few decades now, and in all that time endless stans who support company X at any price for any product are a dime a dozen. And 100% of them know better than me, until of course things play out and then in reality they never actually do. It's not a compelling product, it's old infantry minis from 20 years ago, a couple of characters who aren't worth $35 each, and some sad looking building corners, which after you buy you will see don't make your table look like anything approaching a ruined city. And a book, wow a book. All at an absurdly high price.
People who already play the game aren't likely to find anything of value in it as the models are redundant, the book is unnecessary, and the scenery is basic and bland. Also, if you're involved with a group of people who play much MESBG, you probably can get those old infantry models off somebody in the group, or formerly in the group, who doesn't want them anymore for very little cost. Meanwhile if you're one of the vanishingly few potential new players who will consider joining the game over the next year, the box set is $200+ just to get started and has nothing exciting in it to justify the cost. It isn't a loss leader, it has no curb appeal, it's not tempting to new consumers. And GW does stuff like this all the time, and it never works out for them. It's not even new, it's predictable. They just let them sit on retailer's shelves until the owner offers some to regulars at a deep discount.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Are the heroes in the Osgiliath box, exclusive to it? That's the only reason my OCD might force me to give in.
This isn't a new, or meaningfully changed core rulebook, is it?
for a window, much like Theoden was in Pelennor.
Nope, just the same core rules since the early 2000's, with included faq/errata, much like GW has done since the big blue book of 2005, and no meaningful changes since 2012.
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frankelee wrote: People who already play the game aren't likely to find anything of value in it as the models are redundant, the book is unnecessary, and the scenery is basic and bland.
I disagree completely, but the way you write is so full of absolutes that there is certainly no meaningful discussion that can be had with you.
judgedoug wrote: Nope, just the same core rules since the early 2000's, with included faq/errata, much like GW has done since the big blue book of 2005, and no meaningful changes since 2012.
Whatever your leanings, the new Battlehosts are a fantastic way to start or bolster a Middle-earth™ Strategy Battle Game collection, and once you pick your side you’ll want to hit the battlefield running.
For this reason, we’re giving away a Quickstart Rules Guide PDF which can be downloaded right here. The document contains a simplified set of the Core Rules, as well as a selection of scenarios to play through. We’re also giving away four separate Quickstart Booklet PDFs – one for each of the Battlehosts – with profiles for all the miniatures you get in the boxes so you can get started playing as easily as possible.
Warhammer wrote:Download the free rules for the Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game and unit profiles for the new Battlehost boxes here: https://bit.ly/3cQVymP
They're 'just' Quickstart Rules, but it's better than nothing...
Let's pretend I don't know anything at all about MESBG. Are the new army boxes an okay buy? Do they need a lot of other purchases to play regular sized games? Are those four factions good to play? What else do I need?
Yes, they're very good. You're essentially getting a unit for free. All of them are good armies, and no you don't need too much else. Probably a command box and maybe an extra troop/cavalry box. Then you can look at expanding to more elite units from there. Typical points range at around 700-800 but the game is more designed in mind with scenario play.
lord_blackfang wrote: Let's pretend I don't know anything at all about MESBG. Are the new army boxes an okay buy? Do they need a lot of other purchases to play regular sized games? Are those four factions good to play? What else do I need?
Yes indeed, they are a great core to each of those 4 armies. Each includes a mighty hero who'd you wind up eventually getting as well. Here's some of my thoughts about them, in no particular order:
Minas Tirith focuses us primarily on, obviously, Minas Tirith. the Gondor Commanders pack and a pack of Citadel Guard will do wonders. Maybe even add Beregond for some siege of MT theme (with Gandalf the White). Obviously the Starter + Minas Tirith is very useful for continuing an Osgiliath theme as well.
Mordor box is wonderful for going Angmar or Mordor. New Starter + Mordor even better for Mordor for a mix of the soldier orcs, orc rabble, warg riders, and some trolls. In either Angmar or Mordor, adding the box of orc commanders is useful. For Mordor, how about some Morgul Knights and the Mouth of Sauron? For Angmar, can't go wrong with some spooky stuff like Spectres and Barrow-Wights!
The obvious pairing here would be Starter + Minas Tirith + Mordor box and you'll have just a pile of War of the Ring in Gondor options to choose from, maybe adding a Fell-Beast for late War of the Ring, and Boromir to go with his bro for earlier pre-Fellowship reclamation of Osgiliath.
Rohan box sets you up well, the next logical step from here would be more Riders of Rohan. Mounted Rohan command would be useful, or if you want to go hero-heavy, Gamling with his banner. Wanna redo some Fords of Isen action? Add Theodred and Grimbold. Later in the War of the Ring? Theoden and some Royal Guard.
Isengard is a great core for Isengard in general or branching into Scouts or Soldier Uruks only. Logical next purchases: for Scouts, the Scout Command pack and Lurtz/Ugluk. For soldiers, Fighting Uruk-hai command pack, crossbowme, berzerkers.
And of course the obvious pairing here would be Rohan and Isengard and either build towards early War of the Ring battles such as the Fords of Isen w/ Theodred/Grimbold vs Uruks (and maybe grab a box of Warg Riders and normal Orcs for these battles). Or Eomer's riders (add more Riders) vs Uruk Scouts roaming throughout Rohan. Or Theoden, Eomer, etc vs soldier Uruks for late-War in Rohan. Or Theoden and Dernhelm/Eowyn for Pelennor era.
In all cases, you can absolutely use a normal soldier fella as a Captain (for example, the Knights of Minas Tirith, I would 100% use one as a mounted captain).
And additionally, I'd say "which battle or event in the books or films do you like the most" because it's real, real easy to theme some armies around those events, and if it's a battle or event you just love, it makes building the armies all that more enjoyable.
Thanks y'all. Sad, I would love Isengard the most as a faction and trolling people with Saruman/Grima, but I can't live without cavalry and they seem to have none. Losing the Army rule to take allies is probably a big deal, yea?
lord_blackfang wrote: Thanks y'all. Sad, I would love Isengard the most as a faction and trolling people with Saruman/Grima, but I can't live without cavalry and they seem to have none. Losing the Army rule to take allies is probably a big deal, yea?
If you're talking matched play, they have a few in-list cavalry options.
Oooh I skipped over Warg Riders because their stats aren't under Isengard. Still can't see Dunlending Cavalry. Is "Armies of the Lord of the Rings" the most current list?
lord_blackfang wrote: Oooh I skipped over Warg Riders because their stats aren't under Isengard. Still can't see Dunlending Cavalry. Is "Armies of the Lord of the Rings" the most current list?
Yep if the stats for units were repeated on every army the unit would be in the damn book would be like 500 pages.
"War in Rohan" is the campaign book you are looking for; big ol book with a ton of scenarios that also has a bunch more Rohan specific stuff including Dunland expanded to cover the units and heroes that are more book-based versus film-based.
lord_blackfang wrote: Oooh I was completely unaware there's already a bunch of splatbooks for this edition. Thank you. I really might go Rohan&Isengard.
Most of them are really great, especially if you're into campaigns and scenarios like I am. Some are merely okay, like Fall of the Necromancer is a little light. But War in Rohan has over 20 scenarios and a campaign play system if you want to link them, in addition to new profiles for different Ents (Quickbeam, etc), expanded Dunland, historical figures like Helm Hammerhand, etc etc, plus oldschool GW style painting guides for Rohan scenery, etc. edit: oh plus greatly expanded siege rules and new siege scenarios!
I managed to score a copy of Pelennor Fields online over the weekend, and have asked my lfgs to order in the Osgiliath, Rohan, Gondor, and Isengard boxes. That should give me sizeable Mordor, Rohan, and Gondor forces to go alongside my already fairly sizable Easterlings force plus a start on my Isengard force.
chaos0xomega wrote: I managed to score a copy of Pelennor Fields online over the weekend, and have asked my lfgs to order in the Osgiliath, Rohan, Gondor, and Isengard boxes. That should give me sizeable Mordor, Rohan, and Gondor forces to go alongside my already fairly sizable Easterlings force plus a start on my Isengard force.
That's what I'm talkin' about! The only thing is that you may wind up with an excess of soldier/morannon orcs, but could always trade away a frame or two of them to someone for something else! With Pelennor I'd recommand grabbing the King of the Dead as well (the new plastic one comes with Heralds as well) and maybe The Three Hunters so you could do an Aragorn/Dead/Pelennor themed force.
Hmmm actually there's still plenty of Battle of Pellenor Fields in German floating about for about the cost of two Battlehosts. I'd have to toss the book, but the savings on minis are even better, right?
Oh is the book in Pelennor the old one? Didn't realize (not a problem since I'm also getting Osgiliath) - but yeah the savings is better for Pelennor than Osgiliath.
chaos0xomega wrote: I managed to score a copy of Pelennor Fields online over the weekend, and have asked my lfgs to order in the Osgiliath, Rohan, Gondor, and Isengard boxes. That should give me sizeable Mordor, Rohan, and Gondor forces to go alongside my already fairly sizable Easterlings force plus a start on my Isengard force.
That's what I'm talkin' about! The only thing is that you may wind up with an excess of soldier/morannon orcs, but could always trade away a frame or two of them to someone for something else! With Pelennor I'd recommand grabbing the King of the Dead as well (the new plastic one comes with Heralds as well) and maybe The Three Hunters so you could do an Aragorn/Dead/Pelennor themed force.
Yeah, I forgot about the Army of the Dead minis. TBH I was thinking of dumping them, not sure its worth collecting an army that has such few options available and in general they don't much appeal to me.
Not really worried about having too many morannon orcs, 60 seems like a solid number XD
Not sure whats in the Two Towers box, but as far as Pelennor + Rohan battlehost is concerned, yes. Pelennor gave you a lot of riders and a good amount of warriors, but because you need warriors as dismounted minis for your riders it doesn't quite add up to being a larger force. By adding the Battlehost you get a few extra riders but you get a lot more warriors, which means you'll have enough for dismounts AND still be able to field a good number of guys on foot alongside your cavalry.
Keep in mind that you really don't need a 1:1 of cavalry and dismounts - only need a dismount on the off-chance your mount gets killed and the rider doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: Hmmm actually there's still plenty of Battle of Pellenor Fields in German floating about for about the cost of two Battlehosts. I'd have to toss the book, but the savings on minis are even better, right?
Considering the rules are 99%+ unchanged, no reason to toss the book
judgedoug wrote: Keep in mind that you really don't need a 1:1 of cavalry and dismounts - only need a dismount on the off-chance your mount gets killed and the rider doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: Hmmm actually there's still plenty of Battle of Pellenor Fields in German floating about for about the cost of two Battlehosts. I'd have to toss the book, but the savings on minis are even better, right?
Considering the rules are 99%+ unchanged, no reason to toss the book
Well the reason is that it's in German English copies are already at scalper prices but German copies can still be found at 20% off original retail - a smidge above the GW retail cost of 3 plastic infantry boxes.
Well the reason is that it's in German English copies are already at scalper prices but German copies can still be found at 20% off original retail - a smidge above the GW retail cost of 3 plastic infantry boxes.
woops! somehow missed that. toss it on ebay and make a few bucks or post it on the FBMESBG trade group(s)?
This thread got me fired up about revisiting a few SBG projects I had half finished, but now I am bummed, because it seems like the camel riders are all gone? I really wanted to do a full camel list. :-(
Anyway, for someone away from the game for a few years, is there any way to catch up on what supplements have new units, and the new army-lists? I've heard they added quite a few, but I haven't bought a book since the new Battle Companies skirmish guide.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: This thread got me fired up about revisiting a few SBG projects I had half finished, but now I am bummed, because it seems like the camel riders are all gone? I really wanted to do a full camel list. :-(
It was mentioned on Warhammer Community that Mahûd Raiders and King are a part of the range rotation and are due to return in October.
It has been a long time since I played LotR, but the game stills seems great, one of the only games GW makes which hasn't been overcomplicated into oblivion.
Very tempted to dust off some of the few minis I have left from it (bunch of nice metals from the original release + Battle Games in Middle Earth) and make an Osgiliath board.
Middle Earth SBG is pretty much the best ruleset GW have ever made, and they don't tinker with it very much! A lot of the core miniautres are old, and can be quite frustrating to paint, but they look great on the table - no better time to start!
While there is a healthy faq section for odd rules interactions, at least anecdotally it seems like I very very rarely need to ever reference it. The core rules have been stable for two decades.
I'm also getting back into the game after more than a decade and some of the newer plastics are just excellent. Gandalf the White on Shadowfax with Pippin seamlessly slotting in is such clever little feature, the Witch king on horse/foot are stellar sculpts.
I mean, Pelennor was 140€ retail, right? And this definitely has a "Kill Zone"'s worth of new terrain. About 1/2 - 1 boxes less models per side tho, right?
The original original LOTR box if I remember correctly was 9 metal fellowship and a few sprues of moria goblins?
lord_blackfang wrote: I mean, Pelennor was 140€ retail, right? And this definitely has a "Kill Zone"'s worth of new terrain. About 1/2 - 1 boxes less models per side tho, right?
The original original LOTR box if I remember correctly was 9 metal fellowship and a few sprues of moria goblins?
All four original starters costed the same except the very first one, an no box had metals, it was all plastic as all other GW starter boxes.
The very first one (The Fellowship of the Rings) had a box of numenoreans and noldor, plus a box of moria orcs, and socme scenery (plus, obviosly, the game, dice, and a modules book, that's the same in all the boxes). It was also all new, state of the art sprues by the time (whereas this new box is all old stuff except for the characters).
The second one (The Mines of Moria box set) had 9 characters (the fellowship, yeah), a cave troll, 24 moria goblins and Mines of Moria scenery. All new except the moria orcs.
The third one (The Two Towers) had a box of uruk-hai and two boxes of rohirrim infantry, plus some scenery, but still, all new, state-of-the-art sprues by the time.
Lastly, the fourth one (The Return of the King) was IMHO the worst, as it was basically a box of Minas Tirith humans and a box of Mordor orcs, plus again, some lowr level infantry. Still, as said with the above bosex, all new.
But I was actually way off with the prices: the price I remembered was the original price for the Hobbit first box, which was ludicrously expensive in comparison. The first box started at retail at $39.95, whereas the rest went for $45.
lord_blackfang wrote: I mean, Pelennor was 140€ retail, right? And this definitely has a "Kill Zone"'s worth of new terrain. About 1/2 - 1 boxes less models per side tho, right?
The original original LOTR box if I remember correctly was 9 metal fellowship and a few sprues of moria goblins?
No, it was 120 RRP initially before GW bumped up the price a year or so later.
The boxes with the movie releases had just a few plastic sprues, no metal.
Anyone know if the Battlehosts are here to stay or are they a limited run?
lord_blackfang wrote: I mean, Pelennor was 140€ retail, right? And this definitely has a "Kill Zone"'s worth of new terrain. About 1/2 - 1 boxes less models per side tho, right?
The original original LOTR box if I remember correctly was 9 metal fellowship and a few sprues of moria goblins?
No, the very first box for Fellowship was two sprues of each group, Last Alliance and Moria Goblins.
EDIT: Apparently there was another page and this was already answered, my bad for the "dog piling"
Personally the other 4 boxes, despite the price, are very meh/lackluster - they definitely contained fewer minis (although the cost PER mini was substantially lower) and the included terrain was basically irrelevant. Pelennor I think could have been a great box if they included some terrain and the Good side was an actual cohesive force instead of a hodge podge of Rohan and Ghosts.
I think the Osgiliath box is great, despite the price, as its two decent armies and a set of decent terrain - not only was the box enough to make me want to buy it, but it was enough to make me want to buy into the game system as a whole (despite owning Easterlings, I didn't buy them for use with MESBG), such that I then tracked down a copy of Pelennor and ordered 3 of the 4 battlehosts releasing alongside it.
Even if the price is high, it is a much better *product*.
I wouldn't say the early "thin" scenery was irrelevant - I collected about a half dozen sets of those and made a nice themed terrain set around the ruins of Arnor with them. Terrain is hugely important in SBG so the lack of it in Pelennor was the primary negative of that box imho.
however now that the Osgiliath starter preorder is up I can easily see that the new Ray Dranfield designed Osgiliath buildings are incredible and I can't wait to buy a massive gonzo scenery box set like they did for Rohan and Dol Guldur scenery.
Gentlemen, today I scored Pelennor for 112€, in English, at my FLGS. And I'm moving the ghosts for 15€.
Will probably pick up both relevant Battlehosts, on discount they'll cost barely more than the heroes inside that I'd need to buy from Direct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a Fun Fact: I wrote in this thread about 48 hours ago that German Pelennors can still be found online at discounter prices. Kutami.de had 6 in stock at the time, 2 this morning and none now.
Yeah, I was planning on buying a mountain of the old Osgiliath ruins if they ever came back into stock, but now I'm just going to wait until GW releases a $300+ bundle deal of the new ruins and buy 2 of them lol.
Ignispacium wrote: The terrain is the thing I'm most excited for. It's going to be great for setting up a Mordheim table, or just about any city-setting skirmish gaming.
Those sprues look very interesting and has potential. I hope you can make building that aren't destroyed.
I'm going to wait and hopefully they released a big box like that for Rohan or Dol Guldor. I'll probably be waiting a year or more since this box isn't even released until December.
Just bought 2 battlehosts, first new GW miniatures I've bought in about 15 years, so they've really gotten something right with this release.
I picked up Mordor and Minas Tirith, to expand with the Osgiliath box later in the year. The contents don't duplicate at all, with the exception of 12 warriors of minis tirith so it's perfect.
Will probably sell off the scenery from the starter, it's really nice, but 3d printer has been going brrr with ruined stone buildings for quite some time now.
Those sprues look very interesting and has potential. I hope you can make building that aren't destroyed.
I'm going to wait and hopefully they released a big box like that for Rohan or Dol Guldor. I'll probably be waiting a year or more since this box isn't even released until December.
Yep they confirmed you can make intact buildings. There is some unconfirmed speculation that there is a third sprue that will be in the individual kit with roof tiles & accessories, but again, no confirmation.
I'll also be eagerly awaiting a mega box - that being said, the first Rohan mega box came out at roughly the same time as the individual kits, so it could happen.
Ruined building are cool, but for fantasy I don't like too many. Your bows and spears can't cause that kind of rubble so I don't like ally buildings shown as ruins.
Those sprues look very interesting and has potential. I hope you can make building that aren't destroyed.
I'm going to wait and hopefully they released a big box like that for Rohan or Dol Guldor. I'll probably be waiting a year or more since this box isn't even released until December.
Yep they confirmed you can make intact buildings. There is some unconfirmed speculation that there is a third sprue that will be in the individual kit with roof tiles & accessories, but again, no confirmation.
I'll also be eagerly awaiting a mega box - that being said, the first Rohan mega box came out at roughly the same time as the individual kits, so it could happen.
I just noticed that this image has a stairs and balustrade (behind the troll) that aren't available on the initial 2 sprues so there's likely more sprues for later release.
I hope you can make building that aren't destroyed.
Most of the parts are ruined ones, but it looks like if you buy enough kits you should get enough undamaged parts to build one intact building for every few destroyed ones.
I hope you can make building that aren't destroyed.
Most of the parts are ruined ones, but it looks like if you buy enough kits you should get enough undamaged parts to build one intact building for every few destroyed ones.
Sector Fronteris style I guess, though I think some of the imperial sector ruins had ruined floors that slotted together
I just noticed that this image has a stairs and balustrade (behind the troll) that aren't available on the initial 2 sprues so there's likely more sprues for later release.
GOOD CATCH! That amps my desire up, though my wallet is already whimpering.
About fething time they MtO'd the Breaking of the Fellowship. Been waiting for this for ages. Although i'm not really happy that'll it'll probably be $110+.
Can't say i'm overly enamoured with this drip feed style MtO they're currently doing. I didn't order Gandlaf/Final Fate of the Witch-king on a hunch that they might release more. I was right, but it's annoying cause it means I don't know if they'll do another one next week, how much do I need to budget for them all. They just drop them all at once you buggers.
On the upside, every single Shitecast model is truly unique and completely different from the rest in the way it's absolutely awful. Nobody else will have a model that has his axe bent at the exact same angle, or the same amount of bubbles on his face, or the shield warped the exact same way, or the mold slipped several milimiters in the exact same direction, or parts that don't fit in the exact same way as yours.
Snrub wrote: About fething time they MtO'd the Breaking of the Fellowship. Been waiting for this for ages. Although i'm not really happy that'll it'll probably be $110+.
Can't say i'm overly enamoured with this drip feed style MtO they're currently doing. I didn't order Gandlaf/Final Fate of the Witch-king on a hunch that they might release more. I was right, but it's annoying cause it means I don't know if they'll do another one next week, how much do I need to budget for them all. They just drop them all at once you buggers.
It was also in the April 2019 Made to Order. I think the price then was just over £40, not sure how that converts with current GW conversion but can also expect a slight uplift on that.
Carlovonsexron wrote: I haven't watched it, only seen screenshots - and have heard its dialogue is pretty terrible...
but man, I wouldn't mind having some of the Numenoreans from Ring of Power as minis.
Show quality aside (I expected to dislike it and now the show has converted me, I quite like it), it is _wonderful_ to see all new WETA designs for Middle-earth and yes every episode I find myself wishing there were minatures coming out for them... especially ESPECIALLY the orcs.
The show really lost me at episode three. That awful, awkward as hell horse riding scene with galadriel. And somebody made me watch that scene with her in the cell with the four guards.. That's a billion dollar quality show right there..
Anyway, I'm confused, doesn't the breaking of the fellowship happen at amon hen? I got the amon hen set a couple of years ago on mto. I'm confused as to why they have 2 sets representing events so close together?
Anyway, I'm confused, doesn't the breaking of the fellowship happen at amon hen? I got the amon hen set a couple of years ago on mto. I'm confused as to why they have 2 sets representing events so close together?
chaos0xomega wrote: Has there been any definitive word about whether or not GW will be doing Rings of Power minis?
I don't think they're ever going to give us a definitive word. They just sort of set the idea to the side on their livestream, and I expect that may well be the last you ever hear a GW employee mention Rings of Power.
Rings of Power is produced under a separate licence from the New Line (WB) movie series.
GW's licence came from a confusing combination of New Line and Middle Earth Enterprises. Just to confuse things further, Middle Earth Enterprises has just been purchased by Embracer Group, which looks to be building a vertically integrated entertainment group consisting of comic book publishers, video game developers/publishers, movie production studios and most recently Asmodee - the largest board game publishers in the world. Most future board gaming/miniature licences (not existing ones) are likely to go to Asmodee in the first instance with maybe the odd specifically licenced item being allowed to be published elsewhere. Part of Asmodee is Fantasy Flight, which we'll all remember used to be a close licensor of GW IP until both parties abrupted ended their relationship in 2016, rumours suggesting that it was because of Fantasy Flight moving into competing miniature games such as X-Wing.
So I think it's fair to say that it's unlikely that GW are going to be getting a licence for Rings of Power or be making miniatures for it any time soon. Which is probably a good thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Rings of Power licence is forced upon Atomic Mass Games by Asmodee as they appear to be Asmodee's preferred miniature game producer nowadays.
Anyway, I'm confused, doesn't the breaking of the fellowship happen at amon hen? I got the amon hen set a couple of years ago on mto. I'm confused as to why they have 2 sets representing events so close together?
Money, dear boy.
Aye true but really? Here's the fellowship from these scenes in the film, and heres another fellowship from a few scenes later! Makes no sense.
Londinium wrote: Rings of Power is produced under a separate licence from the New Line (WB) movie series.
GW's licence came from a confusing combination of New Line and Middle Earth Enterprises. Just to confuse things further, Middle Earth Enterprises has just been purchased by Embracer Group, which looks to be building a vertically integrated entertainment group consisting of comic book publishers, video game developers/publishers, movie production studios and most recently Asmodee - the largest board game publishers in the world. Most future board gaming/miniature licences (not existing ones) are likely to go to Asmodee in the first instance with maybe the odd specifically licenced item being allowed to be published elsewhere. Part of Asmodee is Fantasy Flight, which we'll all remember used to be a close licensor of GW IP until both parties abrupted ended their relationship in 2016, rumours suggesting that it was because of Fantasy Flight moving into competing miniature games such as X-Wing.
So I think it's fair to say that it's unlikely that GW are going to be getting a licence for Rings of Power or be making miniatures for it any time soon. Which is probably a good thing.
I don't believe thats entirely accurate.
Amazon purchased the rights through a deal brokered between the Tolkien Estate, HarperCollins Publishing, and New Line Cinema/Warner Bros (as in the three entities are collectively together the licensors to Amazons production) - which is why Amazon is able to re-utilize film assets from New Lines/Warners productions, etc. This deal was basically only made possible by Christopher Tolkien stepping down from managing the Estate (he hated the Peter Jackson films and was not on good terms with WB/New Line) and the subsequent settlement of a legal dispute between the Tolkien Estate and Warner Bros/New Line. It was reportedly a specific requirement of Bezos that the Amazon production have access to re-use material from the films because he wanted the Prime show to be seen as being "canon" or "official" by mainstream audiences who identify more with the films than the book (I imagine that Bezos was also thinking ahead, as Zaentz Co was maneuvering to sell Middle Earth Enterprises, etc. even then, which will likely result in a Marvel Studios vs Sony Pictures style rights split - Bezos wanted Rings of Power to come out on the "winning side" of continuity, etc. rather than being seen as the "off brand" version). The Tolkien Estate on its own did not have the ability to grant those rights to Amazon (especially since New Line/Warners rights are derived from Middle Earth Enterprises rights rather than the Tolkien Estate), so New Line/Warner Bros had to be involved in the agreement for that to happen. Confusingly, that means that Amazons rights are indirectly and partially derived from Middle Earth Enterprises as well, via Warner/New Line - which is why Embracers press release indicates that it has a "financial stake" in The Rings of Power, because it will generate royalties indirectly via what I assume are royalties receivable by Warner/New Line and HarperCollins for their part in the deal.
GWs own licenses seem to be derived directly from New Line/Warner Bros, and *not* directly from Middle Earth Enterprises (essentially GW is a sub-licensee), which is why the copyright/trademark rights notations on their web pages all indicated all rights reserved by Warner and New Line, with the additional stipulation that ultimate ownership rests with Middle Earth Enterprises (now Embracer) under license to New Line/Warner. You will see this to be true if you look up previous GW press-releases on the topic, such as this one from 2011 (not their current licensing deal as it was renewed again afterwards). As you can see it states clearly that WARNER BROS (specifically Warner Bros. Consuper Products) has extended GWs licensing agreement for 6 years. Middle-Earth Enterprises is only menioned in the copyright text in relation to it having granted license to WB/New Line. Likewise, if you check the "licensing contacts" page for Middle-Earth Enterprises, you will see that "Merchandising Based Upon the Books" is licensed by MEE directly, but upon "Merchandising Based Upon the Films" is done via Warner Bros (you will also note HarperCollins there for "Other Book Rights"). Its also worth noting that the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit licenses seem to be separate items as those licenses are often called out separately on various pages - I think its safe to assume that, by extension, the forthcoming The War of the Rohirrim from New Line/Warner would also be a separate license that GW would have to negotiate and acquire (though I note that it is being published under the "The Lord of the Rings" banner - so it *might* actually fall under GWs existing license). Likewise, the Rings of Power would also similarly be a separate license that GW would have to negotiate and pay for, likely with Amazon. These are likely not things that GW would have automatic access to.
So.
All that being said, Embracers purchase of Middle Earth Enterprises doesn't directly impact Games Workshop (at least not currently), as GWs licensing deal with Warner Bros/New Line will remain active so long as GW is willing to renew it and Warner Bros/New Lines continues to hold licensing rights, which it seems they will continue to do because not unlike Sony's Marvel license rights, Warner/New Lines rights will basically continue to exist in perpetuity so long as they meet the requirements to maintain "currency" on it so that they can't revert back to Middle Earth Enterprises (this is why Embracer managed to buy the license for ~$750 million instead of the $2 billion asking, because the rights are basically in a patchwork of legal hell and theres no real way for Embracer or anyone else to generate a quick ROI, as all the most valuable rights are basically farmed out already).
I know GW has mentioned Rings of Power (and maybe War of the Rohirrim?) once or twice in official communication, but I wasn't sure if they had indicated that they will *never* do anything with it or if there might be more news in the future, etc.
Never knew that about the Tolkien Estate and the movies but I can see where they are coming from with MME. It's a shame the rights are such a mess as GW being able to jump on the new series in a more direct way could really boost the game. It's clear they are trying to do this with what they have but a new range release with the new series would have been ideal. Does the rights situation mean GW can't produce anything that is in the books but not the movies?
Tallonian4th wrote: Never knew that about the Tolkien Estate and the movies but I can see where they are coming from with MME. It's a shame the rights are such a mess as GW being able to jump on the new series in a more direct way could really boost the game. It's clear they are trying to do this with what they have but a new range release with the new series would have been ideal. Does the rights situation mean GW can't produce anything that is in the books but not the movies?
I'm not into all the legal stuff but GW did release a lot of stuff from the books that wasn't in the movies (Erkenbrand, Bombadil, everything Arnor, the newest book about Erebor during the war of the Ring to name a few).
Tallonian4th wrote: Never knew that about the Tolkien Estate and the movies but I can see where they are coming from with MME. It's a shame the rights are such a mess as GW being able to jump on the new series in a more direct way could really boost the game. It's clear they are trying to do this with what they have but a new range release with the new series would have been ideal. Does the rights situation mean GW can't produce anything that is in the books but not the movies?
GW have the ability to do anything in the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit and the appendicies. So they have a considerable amount of material to draw from. And they really do not need to touch that..show. What they need to do is focus on rescultping plastic troops and getting stuff out of finecast. Get that done and you'll see a wealth of new people.
IIRC, because they went (indirectly) through the rights derived from Middle Earth Enterprises, GW has access to the LotR books and Appendix A plus the timeline. The Saul Zaentz licence was tied in some way to a late-69s/early-70s European-published version of the LotR books. The publisher was going to exclude all the appendices, but Tolkien himself intervened, begging them to include those parts at least.
So GW can include a lot, like the names of the Fall of Arnor characters, but not the specifics of the final battle, or the presence of Glorfindel.
Khamul is the exception, as he's first mentioned in Unfinished Tales. According to the old GW website (circa 2006-8), they got permission from the Tolkien Estate by saying they'd call him "Fred" if they weren't granted permission to use rhe name.
Tallonian4th wrote: Never knew that about the Tolkien Estate and the movies but I can see where they are coming from with MME. It's a shame the rights are such a mess as GW being able to jump on the new series in a more direct way could really boost the game. It's clear they are trying to do this with what they have but a new range release with the new series would have been ideal. Does the rights situation mean GW can't produce anything that is in the books but not the movies?
Tallonian4th wrote: Never knew that about the Tolkien Estate and the movies but I can see where they are coming from with MME. It's a shame the rights are such a mess as GW being able to jump on the new series in a more direct way could really boost the game. It's clear they are trying to do this with what they have but a new range release with the new series would have been ideal. Does the rights situation mean GW can't produce anything that is in the books but not the movies?
I'm not into all the legal stuff but GW did release a lot of stuff from the books that wasn't in the movies (Erkenbrand, Bombadil, everything Arnor, the newest book about Erebor during the war of the Ring to name a few).
GWs rights would basically be an extension of the New Line/Warner rights. By necessity, New Line and Warners rights include things beyond what they have actually produced thus far (I don't know the specifics, but I would guess they include the various appendicies and notes associated with LotR and The Hobbit) - hence the forthcoming War of the Rohirrim anime, ergo GW is able to produce things which don't appear in film. This would, interestingly, potentially allow GW the ability to produce content set during the same era as The Rings of Power, but it would be limited to whatever original content GW produces and whatever canon they could lift form those appendicies and mentions, etc. They would not be able to duplicate the likenesses or original characers, etc. from the Amazon show - and its likely that Warner/New Line would not issue licensor approval for such things anyway.
Tallonian4th wrote: Never knew that about the Tolkien Estate and the movies but I can see where they are coming from with MME. It's a shame the rights are such a mess as GW being able to jump on the new series in a more direct way could really boost the game. It's clear they are trying to do this with what they have but a new range release with the new series would have been ideal. Does the rights situation mean GW can't produce anything that is in the books but not the movies?
GW have the ability to do anything in the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit and the appendicies. So they have a considerable amount of material to draw from. And they really do not need to touch that..show. What they need to do is focus on rescultping plastic troops and getting stuff out of finecast. Get that done and you'll see a wealth of new people.
There is no market for resculpted plastic troops that will bring in a "wealth of new people". The people who care about resculpted stuff are the existing fanbase for the game who have overwhelmingly already purchased all the basic troops they will ever need. The "new people" don't know and don't care one way or the other if something is resculpted or existing product, they will buy it either way. Beyond that, the reality is that the "knock-on"/"carryover" effect from The Rings of Power into Lord of the Rings is and will be miniscule. The masses want direct tie-in products that reference the latest developments in the fandom, not second-hand references to a 10-20 year old series of films. If you want the "wealth of new people" you need them to produce content for "that...show". On that note, we seem to have a schrodingers franchise situation where "that...show" is apparently believed to be bad or awful enough that it has no value, yet its also expected to somehow generate enough interest for a "wealth of new people" to come pouring through the floodgates if GW were to market to them. Both ideas cannot simultaneously be true. Its either bad and will not generate any interest or good and will generate plenty of interest.
Khamul is the exception, as he's first mentioned in Unfinished Tales. According to the old GW website (circa 2006-8), they got permission from the Tolkien Estate by saying they'd call him "Fred" if they weren't granted permission to use rhe name.
I think you should see a number of people who would want to start, but won't because of the age old plastics.
But that's hardly true, now is it? Things can still be bad, but enjoyed by many. Look at the vast majority of Marvel movies.
The show is a bad, if not horrible adaptaion. And the ass writing doesn't help either. It does however look pretty, that i will agree on.
Carlovonsexron wrote: I haven't watched it, only seen screenshots - and have heard its dialogue is pretty terrible...
but man, I wouldn't mind having some of the Numenoreans from Ring of Power as minis.
Show quality aside (I expected to dislike it and now the show has converted me, I quite like it), it is _wonderful_ to see all new WETA designs for Middle-earth and yes every episode I find myself wishing there were minatures coming out for them... especially ESPECIALLY the orcs.
Same. Would kill for an Arondir mini and some silvan rangers. And some people are way ahead on adapting current models for the show.
Khamul is the exception, as he's first mentioned in Unfinished Tales. According to the old GW website (circa 2006-8), they got permission from the Tolkien Estate by saying they'd call him "Fred" if they weren't granted permission to use rhe name.
They should do that with everything else.
"Nice lord of Dakness you've got there. Would be a shame if he showed up on tabletops called..... Keith."
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I think you should see a number of people who would want to start, but won't because of the age old plastics.
I don't think the plastics are the problem, it's how much of the range is still metal and resin. This causes a few issues in that Warhammer stores now stock exclusively plastic (bar a WHW and two flagship stores), it limits the range third party retailers can sell whilst offering discounts and the hobby has massively pivoted to plastic that metal and resin are seen as advanced materials thus not for new entrants.
I'd love to have those Breaking of the Fellowship sculpts; they are perhaps the best renditions of the nine walkers GW made. But if the cost is $100+, I just can't do it.
I don't think the plastics are the problem, it's how much of the range is still metal and resin. This causes a few issues in that Warhammer stores now stock exclusively plastic (bar a WHW and two flagship stores), it limits the range third party retailers can sell whilst offering discounts and the hobby has massively pivoted to plastic that metal and resin are seen as advanced materials thus not for new entrants.
They could solve two problems at once by updating the old plastic kits to be more in line with the newer plastic kits, i.e. include the options for banners, captains, shamans, horns etc. Refresh the range, ditch a lot of the resin commander sets and make the whole game much more newcomer friendly. (want to get started with Gondor? Buy this ONE box and you'll have all you need for a 150ish point starter warband)
Anyway, I'm confused, doesn't the breaking of the fellowship happen at amon hen? I got the amon hen set a couple of years ago on mto. I'm confused as to why they have 2 sets representing events so close together?
Different poses - there's a ton of poses for many heroes and you can use what you prefer. Breaking of the Fellowship is just one of those vanity sets for those (of us) who love all the different sculpts and is no way required to play.
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15007
Many of the earlier "combo sets" (pre-2005) like, for example, Ambush at Amon Hen, were produced for specific scenarios that GW made for events depicted in the films as they were coming out.
Anyway, I'm confused, doesn't the breaking of the fellowship happen at amon hen? I got the amon hen set a couple of years ago on mto. I'm confused as to why they have 2 sets representing events so close together?
Different poses - there's a ton of poses for many heroes and you can use what you prefer. Breaking of the Fellowship is just one of those vanity sets for those (of us) who love all the different sculpts and is no way required to play.
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15007
Many of the earlier "combo sets" (pre-2005) like, for example, Ambush at Amon Hen, were produced for specific scenarios that GW made for events depicted in the films as they were coming out.
Aye I understand that, it just seems so close. The breaking of the fellowship happened at amon hen. Seems odd to have 2 sets for the exact same event.
Aye I understand that, it just seems so close. The breaking of the fellowship happened at amon hen. Seems odd to have 2 sets for the exact same event.
Ambush at Amon Hen includes Lurtz, metal Uruk scouts, Uruks capturing Merry and Pippin, a dying Boromir, because it's designed for a scenario and several of the models are effectively tokens.
Breaking of the Fellowship set is purely the Fellowship at this time and includes fighting poses for just the Fellowship (or running poses in the case of Frodo and Sam), and includes Gandalf at Khazad Dum (who, at that time, the previous metal Khazad-Dum model had been discontinued when the metal Balrog was replaced with the plastic balrog). It also includes a more accurate Aragorn with his cloak (the first Ambush had been sculpted using only photos provided by New Line, and a set photo of Viggo in the reference material did not have his cloak on)
I would just like to point out as well, just so people dont think they're getting a mini they might already have, that BoftF Gandalf is NOT the same as Khazard-dum Gandalf. They're very similar in pose, but are different models.
Anyway, I'm confused, doesn't the breaking of the fellowship happen at amon hen? I got the amon hen set a couple of years ago on mto. I'm confused as to why they have 2 sets representing events so close together?
Different poses - there's a ton of poses for many heroes and you can use what you prefer. Breaking of the Fellowship is just one of those vanity sets for those (of us) who love all the different sculpts and is no way required to play.
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15007
Many of the earlier "combo sets" (pre-2005) like, for example, Ambush at Amon Hen, were produced for specific scenarios that GW made for events depicted in the films as they were coming out.
Back when GW wasn't fixated on everything on plastic when this sort of thing was trivial.
I dream of a day when all the people on dakkadakka who use the word subjective constantly are provided the chance to take an English class and a philosophy class, and finally learn what that word actually means. It is genuinely funny to see grown men keep doing this every time there's an argument over opinion.
I noticed the new Battlehosts up on Miniature Market. They didn't sell out right away or anything, I'm sure interest is quite limited compared to a 40K product, but as long as GW keeps them out there they could really expand their audience for the game.
I'm not sure if Battlehosts boxes are the key to drawing new people in. I'm sure it helps for sure.
I do believe the BoPF box and the new starter box is a great way to draw new players. If they change the box now and then and update the minis I can see it.
Sadly without the movies driving it it will be hard getting any new traction.
I doubt GW will every redo the old plastic kids. With the exception of character series and terrain I can't recall when the put out a plastic warriors box.
Even if they don't redo some of the old plastic that's fine, but please make some of the garbage finecast stuff plastic. Or even let Forgeworld do it.
zombie_sky_diver wrote: I'm not sure if Battlehosts boxes are the key to drawing new people in. I'm sure it helps for sure.
I do believe the BoPF box and the new starter box is a great way to draw new players. If they change the box now and then and update the minis I can see it.
Sadly without the movies driving it it will be hard getting any new traction.
I doubt GW will every redo the old plastic kids. With the exception of character series and terrain I can't recall when the put out a plastic warriors box.
Even if they don't redo some of the old plastic that's fine, but please make some of the garbage finecast stuff plastic. Or even let Forgeworld do it.
I haven't been following the show, so I don't know the timelines until they get to the Last Alliance era (if that is even the plan). But, in 2-3 years replacing the starter with a new Last Alliance themed one with redone plastics for that (aka the original plastics, must be some of the oldest GW ones still in production) I could see being a winner.
The plastic Elrond spoiled, and the preview with him, give me hope. I also think that has a chance because the Men of Numenor are all metal and need plastics. The High Elf Spearmen are finecase. Those sprues are also terribly awkward because both Numenor and High Elves are on the same Sprue.
I do agree, it's possible and I'm holding out. If I can redo the battle of the Last Alliance in all plastic/FW I'll be happy. Plastic Sauron please??
If you watched the last Middle Earth life spoiler I feel like they hinted at a future Gil-galad. He will likely be FW but that's fine.
zombie_sky_diver wrote: I do agree, it's possible and I'm holding out. If I can redo the battle of the Last Alliance in all plastic/FW I'll be happy. Plastic Sauron please??
If you watched the last Middle Earth life spoiler I feel like they hinted at a future Gil-galad. He will likely be FW but that's fine.
I would put money down on plastic High Elves and Numenoreans, but I would not put money down on _when_. The GW ME team on Facebook and on various streams have come as close as one possibly can to confirming it without actually confirming it.
zombie_sky_diver wrote: I'm not sure if Battlehosts boxes are the key to drawing new people in. I'm sure it helps for sure.
Pelennor Fields sold out the moment they were announced. GW putting focus on the game drives interest for sure.
The Battlehost boxes are a fantastic buy-in point for new players, especially for the price. They are hard to say no to, even if you don't really think you're going to play the game. They are also the only "true" 25mm "traditional" fantasy minis line I know of - no heroic scaling, the orcs and goblins and trolls and ogres look like real creatures and not cartoonish caricatures like GW minis, the armor and clothing look like things people would actually wear, etc. so I expect that the minis also see use in other games using model-agnostic rulesets when people are looking for a slightly more "realistic" aesthetic.
frankelee wrote: I dream of a day when all the people on dakkadakka who use the word subjective constantly are provided the chance to take an English class and a philosophy class, and finally learn what that word actually means. It is genuinely funny to see grown men keep doing this every time there's an argument over opinion.
sub·jec·tive
/səbˈjektiv/
adjective
adjective: subjective
1. based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
"his views are highly subjective"
2. dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence.
3.GRAMMAR
relating to or denoting a case of nouns and pronouns used for the subject of a sentence.
noun: GRAMMAR
noun: subjective
the subjective case.
Nobody here that I can find has used the term incorrectly, unless you forget that definition 1 exists and think the only uses of the word "subjective" are definition 2 and 3 (in which case *you* would be wrong).
chaos0xomega wrote:
Nobody here that I can find has used the term incorrectly...
And that my friend is why you all continue to fail.
I guess the dictionary is not the language the same way the map is not the terrain. Not that it doesn't accurately define it the word, it very much does.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Nobody here that I can find has used the term incorrectly...
And that my friend is why you all continue to fail.
I guess the dictionary is not the language the same way the map is not the terrain. Not that it doesn't accurately define it the word, it very much does.
frankelee wrote: And that my friend is why you all continue to fail.
I guess the dictionary is not the language the same way the map is not the terrain. Not that it doesn't accurately define it the word, it very much does.
What are you talking about? You've confused the hell outta me.
Not really surprising with how screwed everything is at the moment and for the forseeable. And still infintely cheaper than hunting the sculpts down indvidually.
Yeah for as much as I'm going to hate paying $125 for BotF, I'd end up paying double that easily if I tried to find them all individually. These sculpts aren't as common as other Fellowship sculpts and they tend to go for more.
zombie_sky_diver wrote: It's really disheartening the BotF is $90. What the hell GW!!!
When it was originally released it was probably $35-40. That was standard then.
Yeah it was $75 usd when it was on MTO in early 2019, so a 20% increase. Still cheaper than scalpers, but this also means after the MTO the scalpers have a new higher base price!
Well colour me very surprised. The invisible ring bearers are only $64AUD. Far less then I was expecting. It's a pain in the arse that FW shipping is $20. Which takes the prices exactly to what I expected it would be. Wonder if i've got enough in the slush fund at the moment to bump myself up to the free shipping threshold.
lord_blackfang wrote:Aaand those lovely Rohan and Isengard dice are GW Webstore Exclusive
How very odd that those two are direct and the others aren't.
House looks great and, if I'm not mistaken, the stairs and walkway bridge the gaps (no pun intended) missing from the ruins to make proper multi-story terrain
Kanluwen wrote: The Gondor Tower will make an appearance in many dioramas, I think.
And given Middle Earth has a more accurate scale (is accurate the right word?) I can see these being pretty popular for other medieval fantasy games and that.
Kanluwen wrote: The Gondor Tower will make an appearance in many dioramas, I think.
And given Middle Earth has a more accurate scale (is accurate the right word?) I can see these being pretty popular for other medieval fantasy games and that.
I think you mean proportions, not scale. The current technical lingo for e.g. 40k is ''28 mm scale with heroic proportions'', which means relatively oversized heads, hands and weapons.
Kanluwen wrote: The Gondor Tower will make an appearance in many dioramas, I think.
And given Middle Earth has a more accurate scale (is accurate the right word?) I can see these being pretty popular for other medieval fantasy games and that.
At least if GW keeps their pretty reasonable pricing compared to their other terrain ranges.
These are definitely cool, I'll get them. Already have the old set and some mdf Osgiliath terrain.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: I like those and can see those selling well with more than just the Middle Earth crowd.
They are certainly close enough to a lot of historical styles to be either used in historical skirmish or other fantasy ranges with no or minimal modifications.
Yep, not-Osgiliath is already pretty much the second most popular 3d printed terrain style after generic medieval village and this will extend it to the non printing crowd.
Ohman wrote: What do you think the odds are for that tower having interior detailing?
The Lake-town kit had some double sided detail and I think the Rohan kit had double sided detail on all major pieces, but those were mostly for variety's sake, rather than for the purpose of opening up the interiors.
Since the tower walls can't be flipped, and they haven't show any damage beyond the top level, I wouldn't get my hopes up for double sided detailing
Man, I'm so happy I haven't spent a small fortune on those Hirst Arts moulds. This looks amazing!
One thing though, this should be bought as soon as it arrives. Dol Guldur terrain is marked as sold out, so I guess the same will follow this one as well.
His Master's Voice wrote: The Lake-town kit had some double sided detail and I think the Rohan kit had double sided detail on all major pieces, but those were mostly for variety's sake, rather than for the purpose of opening up the interiors.
Indeed interiors won't match at all to exterior doors where outside doesn't have as well as windows etc. Better not pay attention to interior if you remove roof
Ahh the ringwraith comes with the accompanying Frodo. Excellent. Saves me tracking both down individually. This will be a comparatively light MtO for me. Just the Ringwraith, the two Hobbits & Gollum needed out of this batch. I managed to track down Theoden after I missed him last time.
I am partial to those warg sculpts though so depending on the price, I might grab another set.
I'll definitely get the Helms Deep set. Best Gimli sculpt and I always liked that Eowyn variant. Might get the Wargs too, just because they're such well executed models.
They always tend to do that when a new release happens as it catches peoples interest in the classic sculpts. As an aside, the rangers are so superior to the plastics, they are a must for me.
I guess it checks out with all of them being Two Towers specific, even if it is a month late for the 20th Anniversary. Rangers are from the Captured By Gondor set, and they add a few more flavour sculpts to a collection.
Very pleased with the fell beast coming back, especially with the new Osgiliath terrain. Costs permitting, I'd love to get an extra one for a vignette.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: They always tend to do that when a new release happens as it catches peoples interest in the classic sculpts. As an aside, the rangers are so superior to the plastics, they are a must for me.
I'm generally all for metal but those rangers are like a foot taller than everyone else. At least the plastics are more in scale.
A few standouts in the unarmoured Theoden, metal rangers and the original ringwraith on fellbeast and a couple of repeats.
Going to be some hard choices for me when this one comes around. I'd manage to get quite a few of the helms deep ones, including doubles of that Éowyn from buying up 2nd hand collections. But I'm missing quite a few in the that set as a whole, but I'm not sure I really need them all (other than the FOMO kicking in)
I was also able to pick up that gandalf the white set new in blister for a really good price. So thats saved a little bit there!
But those felbeasts might ruin me. I've been wanting 9 total, I have 3 of the plastic ones already but the metal one has been escaping me on multiple occasions on 2nd hand pages. To have an easy way to pick several up at once is going to be hard to not to go a bit mad!
I will pick up the Gimli on Uruk-hai, as been kicking myself for not buying it since day one. Those wargs are going to be pretty hard not to grab too, as it would be nice for some variety to add to the plastic ones I have. I have been avoiding buying anything orc related, as at last count I had around 900 orcs to actually paint (I don't play the GW, I used the models for other mass battle games)
I can't decide if I want the Theoden model. I don't have this one and its a nice sculpt, but I do quite like the new one even and I have enough models to paint as it is without getting more variations on sculpts!
If this is going to all be done on one MTO, its a pretty sizeable one. Going to have to drop all other GW purchases this month to get most of this MTO.
For me, the Fell Beast is something I'd be interested in, maybe one pack each of the wargs and Rangers, but that's about it. I already have the Heroes of Helm's Deep thanks to an eBay score a couple of years ago, and I'm not worried about having the more "artsy" stuff like Gimli on the Uruk-hai or the camping Hobbits with fish-eating Gollum. Nothing against those models at all, they're very cool, just not something I need. What I pick up, if anything at all, will of course depend heavily on how much they are going to ask for it. I hard passed on the metal Balrog last year because of the exorbitant price, and sadly I imagine it'll be the same story with the Fell Beast as it's a similar size model.
Metal Fell Beast is the highlight for me as I've never got my hands on one! I picked up Heroes of Helms Deep, Gimli on dead Uruk-hai, Battering ram and Wargs from previous Made-to-Orders.
That's not a bad thing if you ask me, shows there aren't many outliers in the game and balance is overall okay. And I guess they shy away from points changes in that document which could help some underperforming units. Orc archers come to mind that probably haven't been seen outside of scenario play since the trackers dropped something like 13 years ago
tneva82 wrote: Ah yes. Shock horror having actual price and not just get free bonus rules.
Ah well. WAAC's got to WAAC.
I love how WAAC used to mean "actively cheating and being a bad sport" and now it's just some smear scrubs throw out when anyone even vaguely complains about the balancing of the game.
tneva82 wrote: Ah yes. Shock horror having actual price and not just get free bonus rules.
You mean like being locked into Faramir as your leader?
Or that one of the "free bonus rules"(ignoring bow limit for Rangers in your warbands led by Faramir or his named Rangers) is literally just a faction perk for some others?
Ah well. WAAC's got to WAAC.
lol, sure thing bud.
Or maybe people who like a themed list like themed listing.
Also, for the record?
Theming it out, barebones, you're looking at 595 points if you run strictly Rangers.
15 with Faramir(85pts), 12 with Madril(55), 6 each with Damrod(25), Anborn(35), and Mablung(35) for a total of 45 Rangers(8pts each).
That's all you get to utilize to take advantage of that one "free bonus rule", the ignoring bow limit for Rangers in their warbands.
Assuming you go the route of the plastics? You're looking at 2 boxes, with a minimum of 16 Spear(+1 pt/model on Rangers) armed models bumping that list up to 611 points.
Frodo, Sam, and Smeagol add 160 pts, bumping you to 771pts and three heroes that can only be run as their own warband with no warriors accompanying it or in Faramir's taking the place of 3 Rangers.
Anything taken beyond this point is subject to bow limits and requires a generic Captain of Gondor to run more warbands--which is Perfectly Fine.
I know taking the hobbits is a tax but you can see why they did it when you can pack 45 bows in to 600 points. Most other armies allow up to 50% bow limit if they have an allowance, or all the models are mounted which comes with its own disadvantages.
Commitz wrote: I know taking the hobbits is a tax but you can see why they did it when you can pack 45 bows in to 600 points.
It's a Legendary Legion, not a faction army list. There's already a "tax" in that you're locked to a specific roster of units to choose from, specific heroes, and a specific leader. Literally once you hit that cap of 45 Rangers, you're not getting any more that ignore the bow limit as the five characters that give you that bonus have all done it.
Beyond that, any further warbands are led by Captains of Gondor and subject to the bow limits of the force.
Most other armies allow up to 50% bow limit if they have an allowance or all the models are mounted which comes with its own disadvantages.
Or it's a specific unit, since Mirkwood Rangers in the Halls of Thranduil army list are ignored for bow limits... which is literally the perk that Faramir and his Ranger lieutenants grant only to the Rangers of Gondor in this list.
If they wanted to make a tax? Damrod and Madril are right there. Faramir, Damrod, and Madril have basically only been sold in a three pack as well making it a less onerous "tax" in the simple terms of model purchases that keeps theme intact.
The small trio are made a requirement for certain scenarios. That's a whole other kettle of fish as it's narrative requirements, not a generic requirement.
45 bows is more bows than you'll find in any other list in the game, and that's not even the limit. It's 50 with the characters too!
I can see why they added the restriction.
If it's a problem you could probably just ask to play them pure in friendly games.
The difference with the wood elves is that the mirkwood rangers get some good rules, but they're also only defence 3, with no spear options and they cost 14 points so you'll barely even have half as many bows (although you would get legolas, who is amazing).
The best shooting list that you can build is probably Elrond with knights and that list have less than half the bows as Rangers LL and is seen everywhere as a WAAC list that doesn't care about the enjoyment of the opponent at all. Everytime you see someone ask if Elrond + Knights is a good list you will get people responding with "It is very good but you will lose most of your friends if you play it much".
If they removed the little people tax from Rangers the entire lower point level meta will change again and you will hear the same reasoning about it as Elrond Knights. "Very good but unfun and no one will want to play against you"
Commitz wrote: 45 bows is more bows than you'll find in any other list in the game, and that's not even the limit. It's 50 with the characters too!
What part of "Legendary Legion" did you not get?
I can see why they added the restriction.
I can't. It's stupid. It's a Legendary Legion, supposed to be themed around the Rangers of Ithilien.
If they wanted to make it mandatory? Then Battle for Osgiliath should have included Frodo, Sam, and Smeagol in the same set as Faramir, Damrod, and Madril.
If it's a problem you could probably just ask to play them pure in friendly games.
Or they can FAQ it. Nowhere had I actually seen anybody talking about it outside of weird theorycrafted nonsense.
The difference with the wood elves is that the mirkwood rangers get some good rules, but they're also only defence 3,
But they're also Courage 6 rather than 3 with Knife Fighter, Elf Cloaks(Stalk Unseen, anyone?) and Woodland Creature(the other Legendary Legion perk for the Rangers of Gondor) baked in.
with no spear options
Kind of a big "so what?" given that you can still take Palace Guard, if you so choose.
and they cost 14 points so you'll barely even have half as many bows (although you would get legolas, who is amazing).
Legolas and Tauriel both are in that list, along with the option to just take a "generic" Hero of Fortitude Mirkwood Ranger Captain if you're desperate to squeeze out the numbers.
Those "45 Rangers of Gondor" are 360 points, in and of themselves, in a Legendary Legion that grants them two perks that Mirkwood Rangers just magically get period. Assuming a rock-bottom target point value of 600 pts to keep parity with the list I posted for the Rangers of Ithilien Legendary Legion?
305 for Legolas and 15 Mirkwood Rangers 253 for Tauriel and 12 Mirkwood Rangers
Total of 558pts Throw in 5 pts for Legolas' Elf Cloak, 10pts for Orcrist, 5 pts for an Elf Bow on Tauriel and you're up to 578.
That 578 gets you 27 Mirkwood Rangers plus Legolas and Tauriel, while still leaving the rest of the Halls of Thranduil faction's army list open to you.
You get up to 20 more models and bows with Rangers LL over spamming Mirkwood Rangers at 600 and like 17 more models at 500. That is a huge number of extra bodies. The ranger heroes also have bows and some extra abilities that help out being a shooty list (9 might, free might on shots for one of them, maelstrom protection, remove stalkunseen/elven cloaks aura) so they aren't outclassed by Legolas and Tauriel.
Most common mount defense is 4 and most common warrior defense is 6 so S3 over S2 doesn't matter much in quite a lot of matchups and even in those that have a lot of d3 and d5 having 60% more bows beat having +1S unless they only have odd defense values in the list. Most have some even defense.
Those Rangers also have more defense than Mirkwood Rangers and you need to kill a huge amount of rangers to break that list compared to the elves. Also 50% more might with Faramir and his gang.
Quite a few lists will just die in melee to the rangers when they reach them because they will be so outnumbered while the elves will struggle in 1vs1 with d3 and no possibility for supports while the opponent most likely will have it. You only get to use knife fighter when you have priority and get a favorable charge and with the low amount of might in elf lists that isn't easy.
Legendary Legions shouldn't be overpowered or boring to play against.
tneva82 wrote: Ah yes. Shock horror having actual price and not just get free bonus rules.
Ah well. WAAC's got to WAAC.
I love how WAAC used to mean "actively cheating and being a bad sport" and now it's just some smear scrubs throw out when anyone even vaguely complains about the balancing of the game.
Given Kan's later posts in here, are you still going to defend him/attack tneva?
tneva82 wrote: Ah yes. Shock horror having actual price and not just get free bonus rules.
Ah well. WAAC's got to WAAC.
I love how WAAC used to mean "actively cheating and being a bad sport" and now it's just some smear scrubs throw out when anyone even vaguely complains about the balancing of the game.
Given Kan's later posts in here, are you still going to defend him/attack tneva?
Yes, because he's not advocating actively cheating or being a bad sport.
Edit: My post was saying that it was wrong to apply the 'WAAC' label to anyone who is competitive or likes to minmax. There's nothing wrong with this (unless you have an insane scrub mentality). WAAC used to mean 'Person who actively cheats or uses underhanded means to win games'. Now because of the insane scrub-mentality culture all over the wargaming community, it means "bringing a strong list", or "actually trying to win".
Given Kan's later posts in here, are you still going to defend him/attack tneva?
I showed the numbers, Dysartes, to highlight that there's an upper limit to how the Legendary Legion functions.
In exchange for losing Allies, losing a good chunk of the army list, and losing their army bonus they gain a specialized bonus with caveats.
In this case? Rangers in warbands led by Faramir(who, again, is a mandatory requirement for the LL and mandatory army leader), Anborn, Damrod, Madril, and Mablung do not count towards your bow limit. That caps you out at 595 pts without throwing Spears on some of the Rangers or Faramir on a horse or adding the hobbits.
A Battle level game starts at 600 points. You start just shy of a larger scale game, assuming you pack everyone to the gills with Ranger followers in the list. The high end bracket GW gives for that tier is 1000 points.
Why do I phrase it like this? Because it's daft that a trio of heroes that are only included to let you if you so choose portray scenes from the film have become mandatory over some ridiculously hyperbolic doomsday scenario that won't likely ever happen in Matched Play.
They're not untargetable deathmachines. They're humans who get to have a bonus that some others get simply for being a faction(Halls of Thranduil and the Mirkwood Rangers) or a specific general(Elrond and Rivendell Knights) in exchange for completely losing their main army bonus, their ability to have allies, and being locked into five specific characters as the 'tax' to make use of said bonus.
Either the trio should be free and mandatory or they shouldn't be mandatory. It's that simple.
Colour me not at all shocked.
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![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
I was looking for that Aragorn for my Rangers/Grey Company Army for a long time
