The Gun Tracks look interesting- depending on how the kit breaks down re. the gunners seat you might be able to kitbash some cool heavy weapon platforms for 40KIG…
Psychopomp wrote: Wow. They really need to get their new marauder sculptor to immediately roll our some replacement heads for the old models as a stopgap. That's just jarring, having the old stuff right below the new stuff like that.
Commandos come with extra heads. Ripper suit heads are separate and have the same kind of joint. So it's all doable.
this is a missed opportunity by most reviews by now
not doing the easy/simple conversions of changing the heads
also the Riftforged Orcs are compatible with the Marauders
not sure if you want some fantasy themed Marauders, but I can see the use of additional heads and adding hammers as melee weapon instead of knifes
The Gun Tracks look interesting- depending on how the kit breaks down re. the gunners seat you might be able to kitbash some cool heavy weapon platforms for 40KIG…
The gunner's seat and gunner are a single part which can be left off the kit if desired.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other news the Deadzone 3rd edition rules are now available on the free rules section of the Mantic web site.
I remember the gun trakk, hulk etc from when they came out with deadzone 1 (was that one a kickstarter?) They have not aged well. How are people finding the plastic commandos? And do they have that odd thing with a few kits (GCPS troopers, Forge fathers) of plastic sprues but a separate bag of loose legs?
I am still keen on starting a new Forge Father army though, by far my favourite in the Mantic Sci fi range.
the bags with bits in addition from the sprue comes from the old manufactorer in China, were it was cheaper to have a combined sprue of different factions and clip the parts out rather than a 2nd sprue with those parts in the box
with the new manufactorer we see the duplicates of the 5 bodies on the 2nd sprue as solution rather than the seperate bits
I have not done much yet with the Commandos but so far they look good and come with enough bits for small conversions
mould lines are a thing, but nothing that cannot be removed
After watching the rules videos on YT, I immediately ordered a copy of the mega bundle from the Mantic website. I love both Deadzone and Kings of War, and I have high hopes for Firefight.
For anyone wanting motivation to get on a build a Firefight force Mantic have teamed up with Blackjack Legacy to do a three month slow glow army challenge. If you follow along by the end of the three months you should have a 1000 point painted army ready to go.
Me too. Might be interested in picking up those Mawbeast resins separately some day. Not interested in the new Marauder hard plastics, unless I could get some for a bargain; the casting quality on those is just too low.
- Gothic Trees were the best seller from TC2
- 2 Themes - Mushroom and Jungle
- 3 piece trees
Base flat bottom concave connector
Middle convex bottom concave top can link multiple for height.
Topper convex bottom detailed top
Interchangeable pieces
SG for 2 new topper tools. Any space on tools will be filled with scatter.
Sci-Fi scatter
Contemporary scatter
- Barricades, oil drums etc.
2 neoprene mats - the void and sci-fi 6x4, 4x4, 44x60 (made in China)
Neoprene base templates to replace 3D terrain when models need to interact with the space.
Can't see myself backing another crate of PVC. I've learned to hate how heavy all these full solid pieces are, basically needing their own foam trays or they will chip due to weight, whilst having soft detail and heavy mold lines.
Looking forward to this, I have a 3d printer, but things like flora can be tricky to get good results from due to thin leafy stuff not working well on either resin or FDM. This seems like a good use for PVC.
Alien plants done well can look great, the more the better, the GW bracken forest things would work great with these.
Not sold yet, but interested. I'd actually been thinking I'd need to get some trees for scenery at some point in the future.
I'm guessing it will be PVC, which will be the usual royal pain to clean the mold lines off of. Not any worse than cleaning mold lines off of metal models, though. But once cleaned up, Mantic's PVC models can look quite good.
lord_blackfang wrote: Can't see myself backing another crate of PVC. I've learned to hate how heavy all these full solid pieces are, basically needing their own foam trays or they will chip due to weight, whilst having soft detail and heavy mold lines.
It sure does add up when you have a full box of PVC, but at least it's better than the Polystone that MBA and GF9 use. Holy crap are those heavy!
I still really like PVC for terrain, I was enjoying painting Reapers Crypt of the Dwarf King last night and I have a Terrain Crate: Town Ruins set washed and ready for priming this weekend. The key to PVC terrain (and figures) is to use Vinyl, Leather & Fabric spraypaint as primer, comes in a bunch of different colors from a bunch of different manufacturers and it permanently solvent-bonds to the base plastic and stays flexible, so if any paint ever does chip off it'll only ever reveal the colored vinyl spray instead of grey plastic. Also works on HIPS and ABS, but everything already works on HIPS and ABS, and unlike Krylon Fusion or Rustoleum "also bonds to plastic" primers it isn't enamel based, so you can safely use enamel streaking grime, panel liners and oil washes.
But that's for fantasy terrain that can get away with being a little warped and imperfect. Scifi terrain generally needs to be crisp and clean and sharp, so I usually only like HIPS or MDF for sci-fi. PVC should be fine or alien plants and I do like the vibe these give off. They're very much like the old resin Armorcast alien plants or something out of Rogue Trader. I'll skip the KS and maybe pick and choose some specific kits at retail, if they hit retail.
won't do a KS anyway so we will see when those are out on the market
yet PVC for solid pieces as gaming terrain is ok and the only thing I would like to see would be pre-made holes for magnets on the different pieces
this would improve the kits by a lot
Well, this is a tough one for me. I prefer not to do kickstarters anymore, and Mantic's haven't been bad for me - in fact I have good memories of some campaigns - but not always 100% satisfied either.
On the other hand, Ronnie uncannily looked into my mind and found the one thing I actually do need and am still willing to spend money on: forest / plant terrain for sci-fi. It's such a niche product category that I'm actually amused by the coincidence. I'm a Mantic "restic" veteran, too, and can take the PVC pain. It's true that breakage won't be an issue in that material. I'd prefer hard plastic like most folks, but if these trees were resin, I'd never buy them. Too much of a headache worrying about broken branches.
I'm sure I'll continue buying miniatures - I am posting here, after all - but I'm at the point where it's much more logical to focus on scenery for showing off the ones I already have.
In the message Dave C linked above, Ronnie goes at some length about how incredible the deals will be, with an emphasis on beating 3d printing costs. How true that turns out to be will be what decides whether I back or not. I suspect that getting a good deal will depend on how much of a bulk deal you want to sign on for, and since I don't need to fill an entire table, if the smaller pledge bundles aren't well-priced, I will definitely wait for retail. Definitely not looking to drop $200+ on a sci-fi forest, even (especially!) if it fills my entire kitchen floor.
Just checked that blog post. I guess I disagree with Mantic from the initial proposition that "realistic" trees look aesthetically terrible next to the Enforcers. I think they look fine. Sure, there's a place for specifically alien fauna and flora, but "Earth" trees still look fine, especially if we're supposing that human fighters on these planets can fight without all needing sealed suits. Humans bring that gak with, so assuming a place that has been terraformed enough for humans to run around or have settlements on has had some imports seems to totally make sense.
I can see were an earthly forest breaks immersion for a SciFi game with alien factions
I also have to say that I liked the 40k Alien Jungle plants we got in the past and looking forward to add this to the table
I would have liked to see this in HIPS, yet I understand why they go for PVC as the "ready to use" thing is kind of a trademark for the terrain crate stuff
Azazelx wrote: Just checked that blog post. I guess I disagree with Mantic from the initial proposition that "realistic" trees look aesthetically terrible next to the Enforcers. I think they look fine. Sure, there's a place for specifically alien fauna and flora, but "Earth" trees still look fine, especially if we're supposing that human fighters on these planets can fight without all needing sealed suits. Humans bring that gak with, so assuming a place that has been terraformed enough for humans to run around or have settlements on has had some imports seems to totally make sense.
Exactely.
During the battle for Endor I never thought "well, this would be better with neon colored, squid shaped plasme trees..."
Both can be pretty cool looking and fitting. Since the Mantic Terrain Crates are rather pricey for the content, I hope this box will be wort it.
And they confirmed on Facebook it’s the same PVC plastic as prior terrain crate sets.
Ugh. That's killed it for me.
I wash and spray prime before painting, then use AP antishine spray after.
A few weeks later, those terrain crate pieces I invested heavily in last time are now sticky/tacky.
All my terrain crate pieces have gone sticky like this. If they use the same material... no way.
And for the record, I have no issues like this with the old 'restic', resin, metal or hard plastic from Mantic.
lord_blackfang wrote: I've heard Bones go tacky too if sprayed from a can. Must be a PVC thing.
I've got stuff I rattle can primed (with standard Krylon) that are still tacky years later, despite layers of paint and two sealants (1 Krylon, 1 Testors Dull Cote) The air brushed prime stuff worked out fine.
Azazelx wrote: Just checked that blog post. I guess I disagree with Mantic from the initial proposition that "realistic" trees look aesthetically terrible next to the Enforcers. I think they look fine. Sure, there's a place for specifically alien fauna and flora, but "Earth" trees still look fine, especially if we're supposing that human fighters on these planets can fight without all needing sealed suits. Humans bring that gak with, so assuming a place that has been terraformed enough for humans to run around or have settlements on has had some imports seems to totally make sense.
Agreed, I guess Mantic have to try to encourage people to buy their product... what better way than to tell people that a product they currently use is wrong/bad.
I'll stick with the trees I have, they work well for both Fantasy and sci-fi.
lord_blackfang wrote: I've heard Bones go tacky too if sprayed from a can. Must be a PVC thing.
IT's a PVC thing but not all PVC formulas react to the same so one brand of paint may effect bones white but not bones black. It's generally caused by the enamel bases in the can as, for example alcohol based spray paints don't seam to have any issues with PVC (at least none that I've painted up) but they're also 3x the cost.
Sealers are the same. I use brush on matte sealer as even if you use any spray cans to prime/basecoat adding a sealer layer can cause the tacyness as well. Nothing you can do to get rid of it as even if you remove the paint the plastic is still reacting and it bleeds up somehow.
It's why I suggested the Vinyl & Fabric spray upthread, too many primers leave the Terraincrate PVC (and Bones PVC) sticky. My first set of Vanguard Objectives was ruined because I used Rustoelum 2X spray and they just stayed tacky. The Vinyl and Fabric, also from Rustoleum, went on perfectly and I still use those pieces almost 3 years later with no chipping, no stickyness
I've used Halfords Grey/Yellow/Black Primers, as a base, then Army Painter sprays to get a quick colouring. It's ruined a lot of time painting and models I've purchased from Mantic. I don't know if it's both sprays, the Halfords or the AP that's caused the issue.
Bones have warnings about using spray cans, I'm sure I've read it either on their site or on the packs themselves.
It would have been nice if Mantic had given us that warning too. As it happens, I'm down by a fair bit of my initial Terrain Crate Kickstarter which I bought and now refuse to buy Mantic stuff unless it's on a sprue or in real resin. A real shame as I've always been pro-Mantic.
Going back to earth trees in space.
I agree they look fine, but I don’t get the additional To breathe we would terraform and those trees would be everywhere either.
If you are to assume space is very large (it is) and on many planets they have a breathable atmosphere, it’s not just ol Oak trees on every planet.
Endor is a terrible example because that’s just filmed in a forest.
But you could look at current space based film, Marvel stuff and many others etc, they breathe without a Pine in sight.
Long and short, Earth style trees fit very well, and are easy and cheap to get often. But some variance is welcome.
The main issue is the plastic I guess more than anything else. I never grabbed a terrain crate.
I don’t like the notion of Bones not being great for spraying, hadn’t heard that at all. Hopefully when I ever get round to all my Bones V stuff there is no issue there.
I've used Halfords grey primer on all my Terrain Crate stuff without an issue. This is the first time I have heard of anyone having issues with Terrain Crate stuff going tacky.
After reading early on that bones had problems with some sprays I have successfully used Vallejo brush on surface primer on all of the ones I have painted.
Danny76 wrote: Going back to earth trees in space.
I agree they look fine, but I don’t get the additional To breathe we would terraform and those trees would be everywhere either.
I didn't say everywhere, and I also said alien flora and fauna certainly have their place. My point was that Ronnie's argument about it looking "bad" or "unrealistic" was a bad one and that we do indeed bring our crap with us when we go places to make life easier in the new place.
Maccwar wrote: I've used Halfords grey primer on all my Terrain Crate stuff without an issue. This is the first time I have heard of anyone having issues with Terrain Crate stuff going tacky.
After reading early on that bones had problems with some sprays I have successfully used Vallejo brush on surface primer on all of the ones I have painted.
Then maybe the Army Painter sprays I used for colour, or the Army Painter spray varnish are causing the problem?
Either way, for terrain pieces, I'd much rather spray them - they tend to be larger in general than single figures. If I can't use any of the massive collection of spray colours I have, then I've lost interest in the model. At least Resin, Metal, 'Restic', Hard Plastric and MDF can be sprayed without issue.
I used Army Painter spray on all my Reaper Bobes CAV minis. The minis from the first KS became tacky. The minis from the second KS were all fine. I think they were made in Bones Black.
Everyone hating on PVC - but have you ever tried going to your hardware store and getting PVC primer? It's PVC "plastic cement" with less gluing power, but way more "smoothing" power. It really helps fix post-scraped PVC models - you don't have to "cut off" the lines, and can just scrape them as normal. Then, brush on and scrub a bit with your applicator and boom. I use an empty tamiya bottle that I pour the PVC primer into so I can use the small brush in the lid.
This trick is now my go to as I go through all the Battletech PVC models and fix their mold lines, mold slips/soft details. I keep meaning to make a video on it.
Obviously, PVC primer type solvents are a bit more dangerous than what we're used to (maybe), so be careful - but good god is it effective. PM me if you want pictures.
I've tried the pipe primer/glue on expanded PVC sheets for terrain, never wanted it near a model though. I'm sure it's fine if you're careful, but it's not something I'd even want to experiment with. My method is probably gonna be viewed as just as out there, I keep a butane torch in my hobby toolbox for the new Battletech (and Legion, Bones etc) figs. A (very) quick pass with the torch gets rid of 90% of the mold lines without needing to scrape anything, the harder lines and mold slips get the standard scrape or filing and then deburred either with the torch or a wire brush.
One thing I don't like: the only mystic portal shown has monster tendrils breaching through from the other side. It's just narratively limiting. It'd be nice if they at least had two versions, including one without the Cthulhu tendrils.
Other than that, not bad at all.
On PVC mold line removal, I get very good, clean results just by cutting away mold lines and using a wire brush to mop up. It does take a lot more time than I'd like to do well, though, so perhaps that's where the techniques detailed above win out. Still, if the prospect of using PVC primer and / or butane torches scares you, you can get good results without them.
The Pledges
As with all our TerrainCrate Kickstarters the pledges will be really straight forward! This time around we are having 2 Crates. One jam packed full of the multipart trees and the other full to the brim of sci fi scatter terrain. We will also have some spectacular high quality playing mats in three sizes, plus templates for ease of gameplay!
Kalamadea wrote: I've tried the pipe primer/glue on expanded PVC sheets for terrain, never wanted it near a model though. I'm sure it's fine if you're careful, but it's not something I'd even want to experiment with. My method is probably gonna be viewed as just as out there, I keep a butane torch in my hobby toolbox for the new Battletech (and Legion, Bones etc) figs. A (very) quick pass with the torch gets rid of 90% of the mold lines without needing to scrape anything, the harder lines and mold slips get the standard scrape or filing and then deburred either with the torch or a wire brush.
Interesting maybe my primer was much weaker - but it barely made an impact - it just softened it enough to either then scrape/cut super easily, or even mush the line into the surrounding plastic, or melt any shreds remaining from scraping it. But I literally intentionally get it all over the (battletech pvc at least) models with no damage.
I just brush-on colored air-brush primers then wash -- especially since I often paint at night. AFAIK, The solvents in the spray cans are the problem, if there is one.
For mold lines, I use an engraving pen.
Early bird is two sets and a mat. I don't play much sf, so probably won't have much interest in the plants. Battlefield set looks good for not-GW games, and some can be used for post-apoc. Would be nice to have more zombie and post-apoc outdoor terrain, but I think Mantic's already released it for Walking Dead and Mars Attacks and other sets?
Perhaps unsurprisingly, it has now blasted through the first 2x stretch goals.
Interesting to see the negative comments. I think it is a bit strange to wish for HIPs, as the price would seem to my mind not worth it. PVC is a pain, but many of us used to use aquarium plants (those mold lines aren't easy) or scratch build!
Certainly a lot better than a ping pong ball and some cocktail sticks...
I just got a set of rando alien mushroom tree STLs for 12€ in a bundle with 18 other sets, including 4 full regiment kits, from Wargame Atlantic Digital.
Pretty excited for this one. My time to play any games is limited now, but it would be nice to have terrain and a mat to just be able to stick on the kitchen table.
Gimgamgoo wrote: At least Resin, Metal, 'Restic', Hard Plastric and MDF can be sprayed without issue.
which is strange as "Restic" is PVC with different hardness
There's lots of different types of PVC. My Zombicide models, D&D Boardgame models, Nolzur's models are all completely fine, but Bones models from several KS campaigns become tacky. I've given hundreds of $ of them away because sunk cost fallacy. Some does well, but some does not. :/
Unfortunately, I've had some tackiness issues with Terraincrate stuff aside from the warpage and bendiness issues, so I won't back another campaign of it (or buy PVC scenery from Mantic or any non-black models from Reaper)
axotl wrote: Everyone hating on PVC - but have you ever tried going to your hardware store and getting PVC primer? It's PVC "plastic cement" with less gluing power, but way more "smoothing" power. It really helps fix post-scraped PVC models - you don't have to "cut off" the lines, and can just scrape them as normal. Then, brush on and scrub a bit with your applicator and boom. I use an empty tamiya bottle that I pour the PVC primer into so I can use the small brush in the lid.
This trick is now my go to as I go through all the Battletech PVC models and fix their mold lines, mold slips/soft details. I keep meaning to make a video on it.
Obviously, PVC primer type solvents are a bit more dangerous than what we're used to (maybe), so be careful - but good god is it effective. PM me if you want pictures.
I'd love to see a video about this. I have a veritable mountain of Battlemechs awaiting cleanup and anything to make this less painful would be most welcome.
Def interested in the PVC Primer mold removal! Post pics in the tutorial section and let us know. How well does it work for generic fantasy miniatures, zombies, etc.?
I take it that the PVC Primer is this stuff? I like the idea of putting it in a Tamiya glue bottle with an applicator. Blah blah blah ventilation blah blah blah.
Quite a few new nuggets of info posted over the past few days.
Most interesting to me is the fact that there's 2kg of plastic in each crate, so very much price competitive with 3d printing (decent filament or resin will be £20-25/kg and it's £45-50 for a crate), and this comes with the advantage of no layer lines or putting time in to slice/ print/ clean etc.
I think this is how wargames companies stay relevant in a a world of 3d printing, make steel moulds for mass production, start making the price really low.
The videos show the pieces being really huge, I'm starting to see the potential for the trees in both sci-fi and things like post-apoc or fantasy.
It's basically deathworld terrain, could also be brilliant for necromunda as some weird mutant underhive fauna.
I think the xenos terrain goes nicely with the trees since it's all covered in vines, the scatter crate already got made, better, with the hard plastics from Mantic and I have loads of it.
Probably going to go for trees + 2x Xenos Terrain, it's all new stuff that isn't in my collection and I know it's sturdy material that I can magnetize and transport easily.
I usually opt for printing everything for terrain, but this is just more convenient.
scarletsquig wrote: Quite a few new nuggets of info posted over the past few days.
Most interesting to me is the fact that there's 2kg of plastic in each crate, so very much price competitive with 3d printing (decent filament or resin will be £20-25/kg and it's £45-50 for a crate), and this comes with the advantage of no layer lines or putting time in to slice/ print/ clean etc.
I think this is how wargames companies stay relevant in a a world of 3d printing, make steel moulds for mass production, start making the price really low.
The videos show the pieces being really huge, I'm starting to see the potential for the trees in both sci-fi and things like post-apoc or fantasy.
It's basically deathworld terrain, could also be brilliant for necromunda as some weird mutant underhive fauna.
I think the xenos terrain goes nicely with the trees since it's all covered in vines, the scatter crate already got made, better, with the hard plastics from Mantic and I have loads of it.
Probably going to go for trees + 2x Xenos Terrain, it's all new stuff that isn't in my collection and I know it's sturdy material that I can magnetize and transport easily.
I usually opt for printing everything for terrain, but this is just more convenient.
Have they said what shipping costs will be. 2kg per crate is quite a lot of weight.
We very much understand that times are hard for everyone at the moment, speaking to some fans that have had to cancel pledges due to higher bills, Christmas, other Kickstarters.
We already wanted to make the Crates the best value they could possibly be and believe we have achieved that but we understand that this could still be one indulgence too far at this time of year.
So we want to give you followers that may be on the fence about pledging some good news!
The Pledge Manager will open around January time and will stay open for 4 MONTHS! So if you are thinking, i love this Kickstarter but i just can't stretch the hobby budget this month, stick a quid in and get access to the pledge manager then, should your hobby budget be in a better place in the new year, you won't have missed out on this incredible opportunity!
ced1106 wrote: Def interested in the PVC Primer mold removal! Post pics in the tutorial section and let us know. How well does it work for generic fantasy miniatures, zombies, etc.?
I take it that the PVC Primer is this stuff? I like the idea of putting it in a Tamiya glue bottle with an applicator. Blah blah blah ventilation blah blah blah.
Spoiler:
Aight I'ma make a video man and start my for sure wildly successful youtube career!
But seriously regarding the PVC Primer: look for the clear stuff. The purple MIGHT be the same but with a lot of dye, but I like the clear stuff.
Instructions:
- Scrape that sucker like you would a GW kit. Sand it, cut it - whatever. Then, when you've got it roughed up a bit, or if the mold line wasn't much to begin with, paint the primer on. 99% of the time I just scrub the area with only the Tamiya brush itself or buff it with a super high grit sandpaper (otherwise you will get even more shredding). It will smooth down the area and evaporate - for a time, the PVC will be more rubbery and you can actually sometimes kind of score it or do whatever you want - but usually I leave it until it re-hardens.
I've even tested making "sprue goo" (which I prefer to use as filler with typical GW kits because then it perfectly blends gaps with sanding/scoring) using PVC pipe - so far not super impressed, and just use something like Apoxie Sculpt to resculpt/fill imperfections. But for super small stuff, normal grey thick PVC cement will bond and harden (it's just too hard to control as a sprue goo).
I'll share some of my prouder Battletech models that I've salvaged. I bought the whole collection and am slowly working my way through the boxes to make really stand out minis from some rough casts.
> But seriously regarding the PVC Primer: look for the clear stuff.
Dang -- didn't even know there was a clear stuff. (: Dad's been buying purple for decades and I remember being forced -- er, "helping" him lay down PVC pipe for sprinkler systems (which the gardener would then break with his mower...).
Looking forward to the video, although before, during, and after pics of your collection would be fine, too!
Firefight had an incredible year in 2022 and we want to follow that up in 2023 with even more Sci-Fi goodness! to start with we have an A-MAZ-ING release early on, with the Mazon Labs being introduced to the game in the new year!
‘On the surface Mazon Labs is an ethical and responsible medial research company that works at the bleeding edge of pharmaceutical endeavours. However, scratch beneath the board’s shareholder-pleasing smiles and there are whispers of a much murkier organisation. Experimentation in reanimation and civilians being used for Plague research are just some of the milder rumours circulating on the rebel networks. This set brings Mazon Labs to the FIrefight table, trusting that their trained medical and security teams can contain the subjects who willingly consented to being part of the program. This signed contract and waiver here proves it. Signed with red pen. Yes, that’s definitely not blood.’
Updates for Forge Fathers and Enforcers as we see some more metal models make their way to resin!
And we see some completely new kits hit the shelves too… Ranging ahead of the main force, on their own or in small groups, Valkyrs function as outriders, scouting ahead, gathering intel on enemy dispositions, and undertaking small lighting raids on outlying enemy positions at their own discretion.
Then of course there’s the rumbling sound of TANKS and VEHICLES that Ronnie hinted at during the Open Day. These will be crashing into the game later in the year, with a clean up of the rules and new scenarios aplenty! Watch this space for updates as we build upto the launch of ‘Tank Po… adult entertainment’
Spoiler:
Deadzone:
Deadzone players… It’s no time to Rebel! We are revisiting one of the most popular factions in 2023 and sprucing up their list and adding a sprinkling of fresh new models
PLUS!!! A new 2 Player Set is due to crash land onto your home planet early next year!
‘Located outside of the Enforcers’ cordon of the Death Arc, the Omega system was never prepared for the Plague’s invasion. The commerce world of Omega VII had inexperienced and rarely deployed private militaries, so after the contamination made landfall, their survival could only be measured in hours. A Deadzone was declared immediately – located near the GCPS’ galactic shipping lanes, the Omega system has the potential to become a dangerous beachhead for the Plague to spread through the rest of the GCPS. Fearing the rise of their ancient enemy, the Asterian Clade of the Five Daggers has deployed to occupy the planet. The Plague cannot be allowed to win this war. Omega VII must not fall…..’
ForeFathers get new Bikes (resin) and Thor and Doomstorm pattern Iron Ancestor, Thoragrim and Hammerfist Drop Team get their metal parts replaced with resin
given that all previous vehicles are hard plastic (not counting walkers or bikes as vehicles though) with some having PVC/Resin weapon upgrades and their current manufacturer is Archon there is a good chance that those are HIPS by Archon
New vehicles is interesting. But does it mean new vehicles, or replacing old PVC vehicle kits (like the tunnel runners in the photo) with polystyrene ones? Or even replacing older polystyrene kits with improved, more sophisticated polystyrene kits?
Going by earlier interviews with Ronnie. It’s new vehicles.
Though the pictured Hornet or whatever was the current vehicle with more guns I think right?
Three other factions basically share vehicles with GCPS so there may be kits with resin parts or optional plastics to cover a few.
Mantic already have some of the best model kits for vehicles based on ease of assembly and price point. I hate building more than I hate painting (which is a lot) but I have had zero problems with mantic current vehicles
privateer4hire wrote: Mantic already have some of the best model kits for vehicles based on ease of assembly and price point. I hate building more than I hate painting (which is a lot) but I have had zero problems with mantic current vehicles
Not only that, for the ones I've had, Mantic provide enough parts for complete weapon/turret swaps making them a breeze to magnetise.
That other brand has a habit of making a key part of a turret a single shared piece on the sprue so magnetising is sometimes a real pain.
I hope Mantic continue this gamer friendly practice for the new models.
New plague/GCPS/Marauder/Mazon/Enforcer vehicle sounds a lot like it will be a cross-faction kit, possibly a hard plastic strider, maybe something else new as well.
Having a bunch of factions use the same vehicles makes it an easy release.
Could see Forgefathers and Asterians getting their mechs/walkers in hard plastic too.
Veer-myn vehicle could be anything, might be a dual release for KoW, redoing the death engine as hard plastic maybe?
If releases follow recent trends it'll be more of a case of getting the restic & resin out of the range and replaced with hard plastic.
I'm hoping for a Lancer tank, big omission from the current line-up and would work across multiple factions.
Looks like they are using the Archon Wolverine tank and Warlord Games Gates of Antares kits - makes sense as very little cost to Mantic and Archon ands Warlord sell more kits.
makes sense to use the existing tanks instead of ordering new ones, specially with Archon being their manufacturer and having one on stock (so might be part of an agreement)
does anyone know if the Antares plastic was made by Archon as well?
although I don't think the Wolverine fits very well with GCPS and the original Lancer artwork was better
though it makes a nice Orc and Plague tank so not that big of a problem
Video also shows an assault upgrade for the Forgefahters APC and with the Halftrack in the same picture maybe we see a hardplastic one as well
This new starter set could be a much better introduction to this great game. Forge Fathers vs Veer Myn offers up some cool imagery for me and it feels very different for a scifi game.
I have the original starter set and while the Enforcers are mostly ehhhh... fine, I could not get a single person interested in Firefight because of the Marauders which are some of the worst minis I've ever had in my hands. Those models getting past QC is one thing, but to have them in the flagship product for a 'new' system is pretty mind boggling. I say this is a huge Mantic fan.
lord_blackfang wrote: Soooo not new vehicles? Just rules for other comapnies' models?
we don't know yet
Video shows upgrade/conversions for existing vehicles while Mantic is vague with answers but the hints are that the shown Warlord and Archon ones are new list entries and not replacements (so it is open if the Lancer will be there or not)
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: Those models getting past QC is one thing, but to have them in the flagship product for a 'new' system is pretty mind boggling. I say this is a huge Mantic fan.
guess this was the final reason to ditch Chinese manufacturer completely
I'm hoping this means sponsons for the Wolverine will be more easily available - IIRC they were only offered in the initial kickstarter that funded the kit.
The wolverine is acceptable as old tech GCPS, perfect for plague, marauders or rebs. I'd leave off the stowage to get away from the 40k/WW2 styling though.
The Lancer hover tank could maybe be a more modern GCPS/Enforcer exclusive with the safeguard tech which enforcers use to prevent their stuff falling into enemy hands.
Whatever expands the range at this point is good, there are some definite gaps and lack of ground armour is a big one.
New starter box is good value, much better than the Marauder/Enforcer one - both in mini count, variety and with having a couple of large vehicles in there, doubling up on that box works out quite nicely.
The Antares combat drone looks good with the Enforcers, specifically the pathfinders who have had drone tech as an established part of their operations from the start.
The triple pack of wolverines is pretty great, gets them into the mass market at a lower price point, £25 each, £20 after typical online discounts is going to be quite useful as an option no matter what sci-fi game you're playing.
Overall, I'm fairly happy with it, hopefully there's some completely new releases for the game soon though. Rebs, Nameless, Sci-fi goblins etc. and of course, the long-awaited Lancer tank!
100% agreed with scarletsquig, the Exham starter set is immensely good value. Though there are 'just' 55 minis here compared to 71 in the OG set I think the trade off for 4 vehicles is well worth it.
I think the FF and VM are better models than the Enforcers and Marauders anyway, so definitely an improvement all around.
It is just possible that I can convince people to actually try this set...
''The venerable Wolverine ... First introduced to frontline combat by the Jarek Corporation...'' - c'mon couldn't Archon came with the better name for it than their founder's first name? Even his last name would sound better = Ewertowski Corporation.
the Pathfinder box is unexpected but I really like it
the Combat Drones fit that theme better than the Accuser and it was something the Scouts were missing
the vehicle boxes are all good value, as all of them come with additional resin parts that are not part of the regular kits (also the Wolverine tanks get resin APC turrets)
PS: and can we appreciate the D8 dice box for 12€ with 27 dice in 3 colours, that is like the cheapest source for different coloured D8 I have seen in a while
I don't ever remember seeing it before... But think it looks fantastic. Might have to pick up a set just to paint.
I sure wish the preorder page had just a little more details. Is there enough plastic to build just what's shown, or could we field 3 tanks? 3 APCs? Or only the one tank, two APCs shown?
Edit: or rather, I wish I read the internets more carefully. Seems each vehicle can be built as either a tank or APC, so looks like perhaps we can field 3 tanks or 3 APCs or some mix. Nice!
I want to know what the mini turrets on the APC Wolverines is made of
because they aren't in the box as plastic from the Archon kickstarters
so have they made a new sprue for Mantic (and if so does it have any other stuff on it as the wolverine was originally a resin model from their empires of man KS and had a bunch of alternate weapons and sponsons)
or is it just a cast (or 3D printed) resin lump which would be a lot less interesting
pancakeonions wrote:I don't ever remember seeing it before... But think it looks fantastic. Might have to pick up a set just to paint.
it was part of the Rampart Kickstarter, which is mostly terrain and not really something that is easy to find on the Archon page unless you know what you are locking for
also most stores that stock Archon have it, but under the terrain section
ListenToMeWarriors wrote:And they are using GoA drones, when and how did this collaboration come about?
well the one with Warlord started by doing Armada based on their Black Seas ruleset, so using one of their plastic vehicles is unexpected but welcome
and GoA had not many plastic models, mostly single troop boxes and outside the Ghar nothing really that could be useful
pancakeonions wrote: PS what's Archon? A manufacturer? A model/kit? A faction of some other game?
Archon Studios, a plastic model manufacturer in Poland
they have their own game with Masters of the Universe, but make mostly models and terrain for Fantasy RPG (Dungeon & Lasers) and SciFi/Post Apocalypse settings (Rampart)
https://shop.archon-studio.com/
they are the new manufacturer for Mantic plastic models after they stopped doing things in China
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OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I want to know what the mini turrets on the APC Wolverines is made of
because they aren't in the box as plastic from the Archon kickstarters
mantic website says Resin, so I guess the parts are casted by Mantic and added to the plastic kit for the battlegroup boxes
3 x Hard Plastic Wolverine Tanks
3 x Resin APC Turrets
it's a nice kit.. but it is a terrible choice for the GCPS. doesn't fit their aesthetic at all.
it would have worked better as just marauder vehicle, since that faction's home grown vehicles have the same dieselpunk slab sided with rivets style. just look at the gruntbots and stuntbots. the Wolverine just looks way too primitive and slapdash to fit the high tech cyberpunky style of the GCPS. then you could double up later with it as part of the Rebels
Overall, I'm fairly happy with it, hopefully there's some completely new releases for the game soon though. Rebs, Nameless, Sci-fi goblins etc. and of course, the long-awaited Lancer tank!
Not this year in the factions anyway. Just the vehicles for most faction August (September for Asterians and FF/VM), then onto terrain followed by the Enforcers new unit models.
mithril2098 wrote: it's a nice kit.. but it is a terrible choice for the GCPS. doesn't fit their aesthetic at all.
this is one thing most people agree on
though there is the possibility of low level corporations taking the cheap mass produced stuff intended for Marauders or have the outdated leftovers
but one problem of the Warpath Universe is that there are company that want to sell and Orcs are mercenaries, so that everything Orcs get must somehow also be available for the GCPS
but I have to say, somehow I am thinking about taking the challenge to convert that one into something that fits the GCPS better
given that I still need a tank for my Iron Empire force
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overall that sound very good for the changes and why they are doing them, also in there that Mazon Labs won't get the Wolverine as they don't use low tech stuff
still need to get thru the video a 3rd time as it is somehow hard for me to grab all the changes:
If you go first you can’t double activate
-1 hit assaulting a unit you can’t see
can’t assault out of a sprinted vehicle
only 1 faction order per type per round, but increased them from 3 to 6 per faction
add steady aim as new short action
smoke launchers are now just target a unit instead of using the template
I was happy with the armored company potential of the wolverine battlegroup. Even more vehicle packs has me excited for all the sci fi gamers out there.
That quad missle launcher looks excellent, and most kitbashable with other options out there.
Are those Vyrmyn hands, meaning a potential transport option?
The Veer-Myn Tunneler already has a transport option, that can be expanded
But this cage shows rat hands and the rat colours so might be a smaller version of the Tunneler or not a transporter at all
So the marauder models received pretty bad reviews... do we know if they get transferred to Archon for better results? (Don't know if that's even possible with how plastic production works.)
From what I recall, the problem most had with the marauders was just the lack of detail on the sides of the models, which was a design choice to allow the bodies to be cast in plastic as a single piece. That's not something that could be fixed by just handing them to someone else... They would need to be resculpted.
Well, comparing the Ogre models from Archon with the Marauders from China and the Halflings from China, this is a casting problem and not the sculpting
All of those have their bodies in one piece and for 2 of them it worked
And all were made by the same person
Mantic hires the same sculptor since a long time and just changed the casting company and that person knows how to adjust for different processes
That it looks like another person changed the sculpts, this would be the casting company making the moulds by arranging the models for the frame
And for the Marauders it looks more like the casting process was speed up to get them done quicker which causes the soft details on the side
Giving the sculpts to Archon will result in better models, but they would need to make new moulds fitting their machinery
Thanks guys! Since Mantic hasn't stated that anything is in the works for these marauders they probably won't change in the near future.
Maybe they're good enough for what I want to use them.
Mantic isn't likely to re-do all their old kits with Archon any time soon; that's not how they've ever operated, presumably for financial reasons. I think Archon's newer, better kits are likely to be incremental and mostly aimed at brand new models. When they re-do old kits with Archon, like the recent Nightstalkers Ambush box, it's previous PVC models, not Chinese hard plastic kits, that they'll be looking to replace.
I'm done with buying any further Chinese plastic kits from Mantic; the quality just isn't high or consistent enough for me. But whenever a new Mantic / Archon kit targets a faction I like, that will have my serious attention.
It's going to be a wonderful day - one I don't expect to see for years - when Mantic finally start releasing new sci-fi troop kits for Deadzone / Firefight / Warpath in Archon's hard plastic.
Hey, here's a thought. There's one sci-fi faction that's already ripe for an Archon hard plastic troop release: the Nameless. Mantic are actively phasing out their PVC stuff already, and the Nameless have never been cast in anything but resin and PVC, much of that PVC being closer to boardgame than War-game standard. And before anyone says that the Nameless are too obscure to do in hard plastic, come on. The Nameless aren't any more niche or than hard plastic Nightmare Reapers, surely. And if Mantic did them to the Archon standard of the Reapers, it would be one awesome kit.
While you're at it, Mantic, give the Zz'or a majorly cool insectile redesign (IMHO they need an update, and could be awesome if it's done right) and have Archon release hard plastic kit(s) of those troops for the first time, too.
You know what? I'm going to go so far as to write a personal imperial email to Mantic right now, commanding them to do this. I've backed several of their kickstarters in the past, so I have incredible sway there. You're welcome.
Mantic usually replaces existing kits when they run out of stock and the old manufacturer is gone
So only if Marauders sell out or Mantic decide to put them on sale to clear stock, we get new ones
But plastic Rebs were hinted last year and with existing Nameless models being on clearance sale I expect those 2 coming from Archon next year
And yes, making them know either by writing them or posting on Facebook that Z'zor or other Dreadball races must come to Firefight/Deadzone is a good way
Ronnie put up a video on Facebook standing next to the Machine that put out the Ogre sprues in Poland, so this is pretty much confirmed
started with Ogres and everything coming after that
and adding to the above, Enforcer get their release in December and they have still a lot of Metal/PVC stuff so I expect the new models to replace those but also Asterian still have a lot of PVC and a box of Cyphers from Archon would be an option as well
So the sneak peak was a Tangle Tunneller, there’s also a shield and “Saturation” version basically swapping the side panel insert for shields, missiles or a cage presumably in resin.
really depends of those are moveable or not
I guess the model is fixed as those are likely resin parts, but as other options from the tunneler can be moved closer or inside this might work
the other option is of course to cut the model and insert them, but than you won't really be able to swap options
I really dig the Asterian vehicles, and am sorely tempted by the 'Oops! All Vehicles' game mode that's happening right now. I strongly doubt I'd ever get to play it, but FF is gaining some traction in the US, so it's a contender for a game I play at a con once a year
one thing other games have going for is a reason to collect models
for the very same reason Warlord Games added a tank mode to Bolt Action
having a game with only 1-2 tanks means people are just collecting that despite some people want to bu more they have no real reason because there is no possibility to play
now you can collect a tank company because there is a possibility to play it, which is important for some people
kodos wrote: one thing other games have going for is a reason to collect models
for the very same reason Warlord Games added a tank mode to Bolt Action
having a game with only 1-2 tanks means people are just collecting that despite some people want to bu more they have no real reason because there is no possibility to play
now you can collect a tank company because there is a possibility to play it, which is important for some people
Same reason why the armored company for 40k came about after apocalypse initially dropped.
Which, coincidentally, makes the wolverine 3 tank kit the easiest way to outfit your force with vehicles for other sci fi games.
now you can collect a tank company because there is a possibility to play it, which is important for some people
TBH, most people wanting to collect that have already done it, they didn't wait for that possibility in game. Because the collection is their point, the game is just a bonus. And...it was already possible to play only tanks, just by ignoring official list building or tournament games, or simply using other game systems. It's not like Warpath is that popular enough for people to care to play strictly by the rules.
Just a note on the new wolverine battle group that it's on pre-order.
Scale images with a leman Russ from games workshop provided by one of my customers, Kelly Perkins , from his personal collection.
I don't think people realize how useful this three tank kit is. It comes with options for both full battle tanks and armored personnel carriers (APCs)
That means with one of these battle groups and one box of Wargames Atlantic cannon fodder you have three squads that each have a transport as well.
That's a solid start to an army or addition to one.
Then you've got the main battle tank turrets as an option for this vehicle so you could make a full armored company with only a few of the three packs. And that's going based off of industry leaders like Warhammer 40K or grim dark future from Onepagerule.
Add to the fact that this is hard plastic, and you have a package that is extremely attractive to people who convert models and kitbash different vehicle types. Ork players for 40k will have a field day converting these to battle wagons, for example.
They also look low tech enough to fit in with renegade forces like Mantic Games rebs or chaos cults for 40k. You could add some icons to them and pair them with the upcoming "the damned" from Wargames Atlantic and MiniWarGaming to give your damned forces some heavy armor.
In summary, there are plenty of uses for this three pack of tanks and it's an easy way to give some heavily armored punching power to your sci-fi forces for a relatively inexpensive price.
for the size it is somewhere between a Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn (similar length but more narrow)
I need to get one for sure, simply to check how easy it is to convert to make it look more modern.
from the pdf guide from Archon, the main problem could be the front wheel if it need to be cut down
kodos wrote: one thing other games have going for is a reason to collect models
for the very same reason Warlord Games added a tank mode to Bolt Action
having a game with only 1-2 tanks means people are just collecting that despite some people want to bu more they have no real reason because there is no possibility to play
now you can collect a tank company because there is a possibility to play it, which is important for some people
Same reason why the armored company for 40k came about after apocalypse initially dropped.
Which, coincidentally, makes the wolverine 3 tank kit the easiest way to outfit your force with vehicles for other sci fi games.
the rules for the armored company existed before apocalypse, as optional "chapter approved" rules. (apocalypse came out in 2007, the chapter approved armored company rules in 2004), but the apocalypse game mode certainly made owning an armored company much more attractive. that the 5th ed Imperial Guard Codex decided to put most of its vehicles into Squadrons so you could have more vehicle heavy armies without using the optional rules just made it even more common for guard players to run ridiculous numbers of Chimeras, russ's, and so on. (that said codex also added more vehicle options like the manticore and the hydra to the trifecta of the russ, chimera, and Basilisk even more so)
later 40K editions ramped up the vehicle counts for almost everybody.
I just saw (sorry if it has been discussed already in depth) an ebay auction for mantic enforcers that featured gates of antares aircraft. Has mantic bought some of the discontinued antares model lines for this?
Super. Thank you for the link
It would be cool if antares stuff got ported over wholesale.
Different names would be fine of course but a whole other sector or whatever just joined the coprosperity whatsits
I would like to see rules for the Antares factions (at least some of them) in FF as this would expand the universe not only by models but also for the background (Antares is just a single system and the universe would become a lot bigger with that)
the problem is that a lot of the GoA models are metal or resin/metal which is something Mantic wants to phase out
Scale images with a leman Russ from games workshop provided by one of my customers, Kelly Perkins , from his personal collection.
I don't think people realize how useful this three tank kit is. It comes with options for both full battle tanks and armored personnel carriers (APCs)
That means with one of these battle groups and one box of Wargames Atlantic cannon fodder you have three squads that each have a transport as well.
That's a solid start to an army or addition to one.
Then you've got the main battle tank turrets as an option for this vehicle so you could make a full armored company with only a few of the three packs. And that's going based off of industry leaders like Warhammer 40K or grim dark future from Onepagerule.
Add to the fact that this is hard plastic, and you have a package that is extremely attractive to people who convert models and kitbash different vehicle types. Ork players for 40k will have a field day converting these to battle wagons, for example.
They also look low tech enough to fit in with renegade forces like Mantic Games rebs or chaos cults for 40k. You could add some icons to them and pair them with the upcoming "the damned" from Wargames Atlantic and MiniWarGaming to give your damned forces some heavy armor.
In summary, there are plenty of uses for this three pack of tanks and it's an easy way to give some heavily armored punching power to your sci-fi forces for a relatively inexpensive price.
Spoiler:
Are there sponsons available for the Wolverine? I am very tempted to get some for 30k...
privateer4hire wrote:Good points. But the plastic ones would be great at least. And also hopefully cheaper than Warlord.
by now the Pathfinder Box comes with the 2 Drones that are 35€ each by Warlord and 2 boxes Pathfinder that are 20€ for 90
similar for the Wolverine which is 35€, the box with 3 tanks is 90€ but also adds additional turrets
Gir Spirit Bane wrote:Are there sponsons available for the Wolverine? I am very tempted to get some for 30k...
not in the plastic kit, but should be possible to make 3d printed ones that fit as the side panel for the engine details can be removed to place sponsons there
I did hope for something new for the Forge Fathers.
They already had four options to build that tank kit into?
And it’s three more options now?
Great versatility, 7 things from one chassis.
But another vehicle like Hultrr, as most other factions are getting something, would be nice.
Maybe next years releases.
It’ll be interesting to see what the end of this years releases are for Enforcers, post all these vehicle waves.
That will be a bit of a pointer for what 2024’s faction releases could be perhaps..
and August Vault coming with GCPS upgrades and Gun mounts for the Mule
As an independent retailer this seems daft.
Release a physical, cast version in box form, then immediately put the resin part up for 3D print access, this making that physical box relatively less worthwhile to invest in.
So... um... I guess the human hive-conscious continues, as Mantic has apparently reimagined Warpath as an Epic scale game, accidentally, concurrently with GWs return to Epic.
They're asking for player feedback and have a rules draft available.
So... um... I guess the human hive-conscious continues, as Mantic has apparently reimagined Warpath as an Epic scale game, accidentally, concurrently with GWs return to Epic.
well, small scale Warpath was around as an idea long before there were any rumours of Epic coming back, as the development what to do with the mass battle game started with the release of 2nd Edition Firefight and that those rules should be used with a smaller scale was around even before that
guess Mantic is just now late to the party, though it would not matter anyway even if they would have done it before epic was announced people would see it as a knock off
>though it would not matter anyway even if they would have done it before epic was announced people would see it as a knock off
Ding ding ding - we have a winner! Incredibly frustrating for Mantic this.
I would be tempted to support Warpath as a 3D print product so they can get it out ASAP and I recently found out my mate has a 3D printing business so that's useful.
In a similar circumstance, I believe WarCry being relased not too far behind Vanguard definitely harmed the latter. Plus in a rare change in circumstance, WarCry was far easier to play and was a full playable game for two players in a self contained box. Insane.
I know Mantic gets a lot of grief for their "we make that too*" releases, but I genuinely love so many of them. Dreadball was an absolutely wonderful cousin to Bloodbowl, with clear inspirations, but plenty of its own charm too.
If Mantic proceeds with Epic Warpath I just 100% know I would throw a ton of money at it. I'm eager to go read these preview rules.
from the options:
full game system with hardplastic models and terrain but Kickstarter
a release in Resin with a tighter range and
fully digital with STLs and digital rules only
I am not sure what is best, I personally would like to see a 15mm full plastic game with a starter box but this would take time to be released while having a fully digital game can be done soon but needs them to extend the printing service (knowing people to print is fine but having official shops for printing would really help a lot)
I'd have liked to be able to rank the options, because I'd be fine with a big kickstarter drop, a modest slow-grow release, or a full digital game. But I guess I'm probably in the minority and most people have some preference.
I think digital + STLs is not going anywhere as while some people do have access to a 3d printer a lot don't and a fair number of those that do and are interested in epic are will already be committed to fan versions of the old Epic GW games
so they need a physical product to launch
Stores would no doubt prefer resin as that doesn't cut them out in the way a KS would, but would resin be price competitive enough compared to GW? and could mantic actually produce in with sufficient speed (wasn't one reason they went digital for the tail end of the Armada releases down to production bottle necks)
so that leaves a KS for plastics as probably the most sensible option (and gives them the chance to sell the stuff as alien race options to the old epic GW community since GW isn't going to be feeding that market for a long time)
I was a big fan of the original free Warpath "Beta" rules which predated firefight by several years. They were basically a sci-fi version of the first edition of Kings of War. They were my favorite way to fight apocalypse-size battles since -just like KoW- it's basically a ruleset optimized for 15mm but sold for 28mm. We had a good time putting massive 40k armies on the table and yet still finishing up our games in a reasonable amount of time using Beta Warpath.
I'll probably give the rules a look-over. I grew less and less impressed with Warpath in successive versions and Grimdark future has filled my niche for fast-play 40k, but I do have alot of 10mm sci-fi units I haven't used in a while.
Do we have confirmation that Warpath is 6/8mm? I don't see anything specific in the previous posts.
Eilif wrote: Do we have confirmation that Warpath is 6/8mm? I don't see anything specific in the previous posts.
the painted models in the preview picture are 8mm scale while the blog mentions 4 infantry, 2 heavy infantry, 1 walker per base while it was mentioned that scale will be bigger than the new Epic from GW might be closer to 15mm rather than 8mm
Hey Matt, would you all consider doing a scale that's compatible with that other company's entry into small scale wargaming (i.e., about 1/4 the size of your FireFight/Deadzone minis)?
It is quite a bummer, the whole timing of this affair, but a big draw of your product (for me) is how I can mix and match your models with other models, to create the army of my choice.
If the scales are very different, I won't be able to do this. I already have a bunch of Mechwarrior figures that are about 10mm, and probably won't look that out of place against GW Epic (TBD), but I'd prefer to not have 12mm mixed in if that's an option you'd consider...!
I don't think 7mm is currently a popular size either
GW is doing 8mm now so 10mm will look off similar to 12mm, while with 4 models per base difference won't be that big next to 12mm while doing less but larger models will look odd next to 8mm
Question is if 10mm is total size or "to the eyes" as the later will fit 12mm total size better
And Star Wars and Gundam are available in 1/144 as are a lot of scale models
Everything else is either 6mm, 10mm or 15mm
Big oof. Huge oof. And then a year from now Warcradle will be releasing theirs into two direct competitors for Oof 3: Bride of Oof.
12mm is an awkward size tho, I implore you to reconsider either same scale as GW, 10mm or 15mm.
Not interested in resin/siocast, I'd got for a KS with 1 sprue per faction with one of everything on it, make 20+ of the same sprue a reasonable purchase. And STL for rare units and upgrades.
Most "10mm" games are 1/144 which is actually 12mm. Heavy Gear is that scale, Reaper's CAV, Firestorm: Planetfall and the Wizkids clickytech Mechwarrior were also all 12mm. It's also N-scale for trains which is popular, so terrain is easy. And of course there's a bunch of Gundam stuff in that scale
I would definitely pledge for plastic 12mm Warpath, probably pledge for 15mm Warpath on KS, but I doubt I'd even really look at it for 6mm/8mm. I already have that scale on lockdown between Battletech, Alpha Strike, NetEpic and Gundam Skirmish, none of which see enough table time as it is. Warpath would need to be a truly incredible ruleset to even compete at 6/8mm.
12mm. Lost interest.
Why not stick with 8-10mm keeping scale with GW and DZC models.
It's not the thought of bigger models, but yet another whole batch of terrain and boards at yet another scale. The thought of not being able to use existing terrain puts me off totally.
not really, the new Epic won't feature anything non-Marines and Mantic does not have anything that would fit into the Horus Heresy, same with their terrain
next is 8mm is more or less unique to GW so nothing else would fit that line as well
so more or less it really depends "what" 12mm we are talking about
as for example Kalistra is selling 10mm models that are 12mm in total, while GHQ 10mm ones are 10mm total
the old Firestorm Planetfall line was 12mm but advertised as 10mm
also 1/144 is advertised as 10mm or 12mm depending on company
the article also mentions that an existing terrain line was sourced and upgraded with bits to fit the WP universe, so it must be compatible with an existing line
so question is, is it 12mm total, fitting the larger 10mm models/lines or 12mm "to the eye" which puts it closer to the 15mm lines out there
PS: and if someone plans to use 10mm terrain for 8mm scale because the difference is not that big, it is also not that big to 12mm
I'd be interested in a 12mm to 15mm game but only in HIPS - resin and stls hold no interest for me. At the scale it should be possible to do most armies in 2 sprues - infantry and vehicles. I'd hoped a rerelease of Epic would scratch that small scale itch but the setting and Marine focus isn't it. Warpath could definitely be it if done right.
I'm interested in the line " With a view to a potential retail launch, we’ve sourced a plastic terrain range and sculpted new components for it to match the design of our 28mm sci-fi battlezones terrain" makes me wonder if they might get Archons Rampart terrain rescaled with a few add ons?
Glad to see they're not going with GW's new 8mm epic scale. It doesn't sound like much, but at these sizes, the difference between 8mm and 10mm is considerable. GW is the only company doing 8mm and it's silly. Though IIRC, Battletech (nominally 6mm scale) infantry sometimes were nearly that big...
mattjgilbert wrote: Enforcers are currently sculpted 12mm to the top of the head. So GCPS will be about 11mm to the top, Forge Fathers probably 10mm.
11mm to the top of a human head is effectively 10mm. That makes it appealing to those of us with Dropzone, CAV, and MechWarrior Dark age figs which are all 10mm. 10mm is also the same as N scale (1/160) which opens alot of terrain options. It also means that it's mostly compatible with 1/144 (11mm) stuff like Heavy Gear.
This is good news. As someone who games small scale with rebased MWDA figures this is very good news to me. I had just posted earlier that I wasn't particularly interested, but now I'm thinking about maybe picking a few units up!
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kodos 786779 11574911 wrote:
so question is, is it 12mm total, fitting the larger 10mm models/lines or 12mm "to the eye" which puts it closer to the 15mm lines out there
Proper 15mm is 15mm to the eye and should scale about to 1/100.
Manitcs kickstaters are usually pretty epic deals. If they release the physical version and the digital version on kickstarter I could see the digital version being very tempting as I have a 3d printer. STLs usually being very affordable.
another point that might be worth doing a KS is if we again see language packages like with Dungeon Saga
Eilif wrote: Proper 15mm is 15mm to the eye and should scale about to 1/100.
of course it should be but some are advertising their stuff with 15mm as in total model size
hence why we needed that clarification as 12mm total is something different than 12mm to the eye, specially as some model lines that advertise 10mm are effective 12mm in total size
kodos wrote: another point that might be worth doing a KS is if we again see language packages like with Dungeon Saga
Eilif wrote: Proper 15mm is 15mm to the eye and should scale about to 1/100.
of course it should be but some are advertising their stuff with 15mm as in total model size
hence why we needed that clarification as 12mm total is something different than 12mm to the eye, specially as some model lines that advertise 10mm are effective 12mm in total size
I do agree that clarification about scale to-the-eye is necessary.
Started looking around and was about to lament how expensive Tomytech buildings have gotten, but just found a bunch of Outland Models office buildings on Amazon for $5 to $10 with even larger and more detailed ones only going for $15~$25, all made of ABS plastic.
I need to stop this, Warpath 12mm isn't even a confirmed project yet
Definitely interested in this, and as a fan of small scale, I don't think you can have too many Miniatures available!
I like the idea of a plastic sprue and nice clean ruleset, I'll make sure I have a read of the proposed rules. It might make a nice counterpoint to the new Epic game, which looks like it will be a fairly involved affair.
As for the scale, 12mm doesn't mean it's automatically out of scale with other small scale ranges. It's easy to have something labelled "10mm" or "8mm" to be actually 12 or 10mm tall in reality. Depends of the miniatures, the proportions and other considerations.
Good to see Mantic to try that path. I don't see that as a "knockoff" of GWLI, since it's really about their Warpath universe. It's not Space marines vs Space Marines.
If they translate that in other languages than english, it may interest people.
we have also phases with alternating activation of units (initiative rolld at at the start of each phase) and no shooting and moving after like in the previous version
command phase to give hidden orders, that are either move, move double or Overwatch, than Movement phase with alt activation, Overwatch phase with alt activation and Combat phase with alt activation for either normal shooting or melee
units with a normal move order get the option to shoot or do nothing in the Combat phase, units that reach an enemy with the movement order count as charging, units with an overwatch order being charged can shoot one of the charging units unless it is a blast weapon or have a minimum range
Pinning is there as well, making units unable to get the Overwatch order, so will come in handy for melee units to pin their targets before they charge
while there are some similarities with the IL rules preview the details are different, like charge is its own order in epic and they activate detachments not units while shooting happens after melee unless there was an order to shot first etc.
melee looks to be more streamlined in WP than in IL as each unit only fights once and melee is the same as shooting (to hit & to wound)
unit organisation is any number of companies, and a single company is similar to a force in Firefight but with a max of 4 Troops (1 Specialist per Troop, 1 Support per 2 Troops), making it max 11 units + transports per company
it is interesting how both took old Epic as source and came to different conclusions, so for "Epic" it looks good but I am not sure of a little bit more old-Warpath would be better
That sounds really interesting, thanks for posting your conclusions Kodos.
It sounds closer to a quick/clean ruleset of SM 2nd, rather than the heavier/more detailed approach that LI looks to be aiming for. If that's the case, that's a positive as I think there is space for both types of games in the market.
If they do some nice plastic sprues for this I would definitely invest - both for the new Mantic game, and perhaps double-use the miniatures for an antagonist faction (random Alien type x) in some Great Crusade-era Epic games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit - I've voted for the full plastic release and support (hopefully if it is backed by a KS, it won't represent a big risk for Mantic, as they would only go ahead with the plastic sprues if the KS accrued enough funds).
As someone with no skin/baggage/purchases in the game, I feel like this is something they should have done from the beginning instead of three related rulesets/model count games with the same figures.
warboss wrote: As someone with no skin/baggage/purchases in the game, I feel like this is something they should have done from the beginning instead of three related rulesets/model count games with the same figures.
I mean, doesn't seem to have harmed GW much at all taking that approach.
Doing the same scale/models was a less risky approach also because they would still sell to 40k players
Ronni also said a while ago that chasing GW was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years.
Looks like they now tried to fill the gaps GW is not covering, hence Armada exists and 10mm Warpath was planned (while still trying to keep existing customers happy with 28mm games)
lord_blackfang wrote: Rule look slick but maybe a bit soulless, and the army lists do not inspire me at all. Maybe this will change when I see models.
arny lists are not existent for now but like examples or early play test version, as the Enforcer don't have a command and Plague no big support unit, do I guess/hope we see more there in future (though lage Enforcer tanks are a nice start)
Ronni also said a while ago that chasing GW was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years.
Ronnie may believe that, but is it true? I'm glad they are trying to chart their own path now, but world the company exist of not for those early year's of targeting GW players with alternate figures and rules (WHFB)?
100%. In the early days, there was barely a WHFB army that you saw that didn't have Mantic used to help fill the armies (zombies and skeletons especially).
But that was then and this is now. I like that they're trying to do their own thing, and they have a different rules design philosophy to GW. I think it's nice, there should be room in the marketplace for differing types of game and experience, and consumers have the luxury of choosing between them.
I suspect the "beta" rules release by Mantic is as much self preservation as anything else. By releasing before GW, they can't be seen as being derivative of it and getting in legal trouble.
That said, I gave them a read and they look easy to understand and play (as usual for Mantic), even if unpolished at this point.
Which fits that perfectly, not doing the stuff GW is doing now and be a cheap alternative but do things GW is not doing in their own way.
And we still have people who are salty that KoW is not a direct copy of Warhammer Fantasy and that the factions are not identical.
Could also argue Mantic should have switched to 15mm for KoW with 2nd Edition as this could have been better in the long run
It is also that the last WP Kickstarter aimed to be a 40k alternative based on what those players asked for and was basically dead before release as 8th edition dropped
And they have more success now doing their own game without being a direct alternative (also because this spot is filled by OPR, and Firefight could be seen as an alternative to Combat Patrol rather than regular 40k, as buy a single Army Box and have fun)
That GW just releases a copy of 2nd Edi Epic by the time Mantic wanted to release a streamlined version of that game is bad luck but was planned as something GW was not doing
So by now I think the rules for their game can and should derivate more from Epic and be more like Warpath
PS: in hindsight a Space Battle game would have been the better choice but Epic focused on Aliens might still work too
Well, their rules for this are still heavily "inspired" from old Epic game systems, so saying their approach to rules is different than GW is honestly false. Ronnie may have said that about their mistake on running after GW, but they can't help but still doing it.
It's not a bad thing per se. There's simply no point to try to make them look like what they're not.
With GW Epic being hot steamy Man on Man action, maybe Mantic should pick two xenos races for the starter.
Unlikely. There will be at least humans (space marines or corporate guard) vs certainly a xenos (my bet is on the plague or their space orcs).
Because let's be honest, humans in space are universally relatable and if you launch a new game at a new scale (in an unfamiliar universe for most players), it's better to start with something people can relate to.
Launching with 2 obscure xenos races is certainly not the best marketing move ever. Unless you want to have bad sales.
I really can't agree with that, Mantic has Space Dorfs, Space Skaven and Space Orks, all of which are established (beloved?) GW adjacent tropes. I don't see why they would be less successful then Mantic's Not Space Marines in Iron Man Armour.
lord_blackfang wrote: I really can't agree with that, Mantic has Space Dorfs, Space Skaven and Space Orks, all of which are established (beloved?) GW adjacent tropes. I don't see why they would be less successful then Mantic's Not Space Marines in Iron Man Armour.
If it was just a new edition of Warpath with the same scale miniatures, sure. A new edition isn't really about launching a new game, rather continuing the same range than before with "updated rules". You already have the community and , most importantly, previous miniatures that can already be used.
But here, it's more similar to Armada : a new game with a new scale. And the reason why they went classical with Armada by launching with humans vs orcs is because it's the safest one when you launch a new game : you have humans everyone can relate to and their longsworn enemy as opponent.
When you launch a new game, it's better to have a firm basis to build the playing community. And humans are always relatable to a lot more people than, say, space rats. You can develop later if it's successful, and then knock yourself out with more esoteric factions in later editions.
At least that's my experience from previous game systems.
Sure, but this is a setting with 10 years of history, such as it is. Surely it's intended to be picked up first and foremost by existing Mantic customers who already know what it's about. In fact, a cynic might say it's intended primarily for Warpath players to re-buy their army since Mantic doesn't seem fully capable of supporting that game in 28mm...
lord_blackfang wrote: Sure, but this is a setting with 10 years of history, such as it is. Surely it's intended to be picked up first and foremost by existing Mantic customers who already know what it's about. In fact, a cynic might say it's intended primarily for Warpath players to re-buy their army since Mantic doesn't seem fully capable of supporting that game in 28mm...
You could say the same for Armada, that it was primarily intended towards KoW players since it's the same universe as well.
Thing is, since KoW and Warpath were first clearly made as proxies for respectively Battle and 40k, the attachment to their universes (and thus the brand) isn't the same than for GW. I wouldn't be surprised if KoW players weren't massively invested in Armada as a result. Here, better to consider it the same, just in case...
Danny76 wrote: Didn’t they say in the video that the plan was it’s Enforcers and Plague like starting. Then Asterians and something else following/same time.
Yes. I believe they said they had plans for plastic Enforces v Plague for the starter, followed closely by Forge Fathers
I personally don't have any interest in Epic scale games, so I won't be supporting this. I don't have anything against Mantic doing it, or other people enjoying it.
I confess that even though I've been buying Mantic products for years - most recently their excellent Reapers kit - I have no idea what sells best for them, or how their finances are doing in general. What I most want to see and am most likely to buy in the future are Archon-produced Deadzone / Firefight hard plastic kits.
I would go bananas for 10mm KoW that was officially supported. I am one of those people who gets bored of lists/factions after a decent number of games, and I just know 10mm KoW would see me buying a whole new army every month.
KOW is a ruleset well suited to 10-15mm as written (just change measurements).
Perhaps because of that, I doubt we will see smaller scale fantasy figures from Mantic any time soon. Why would they give customers a choice to buy in a less expensive scale for their flagship game? There's no sense in cannibalizing your own sales like that.
Eilif wrote: KOW is a ruleset well suited to 10-15mm as written (just change measurements).
Perhaps because of that, I doubt we will see smaller scale fantasy figures from Mantic any time soon. Why would they give customers a choice to buy in a less expensive scale for their flagship game? There's no sense in cannibalizing your own sales like that.
It's the only open space once ToW drops. And it's more suited to their rulesets. Plus you can be the first to do truly awesome epic scale 10mm fantasy with lots of huge monsters and massive blocks of infantry.
I'll never buy KoW models to play 28mm KoW. But I'd dive hard into 10mm fantasy. I can't be the only one.
Mantic are already happy to sell you a cheap STL version of a model you can otherwise pay quite a bit for.
Selling you an army in a box on a regular basis in a different scale might not be the bad thing... could be quite refreshing for some people and get them playing more.
Eilif wrote: KOW is a ruleset well suited to 10-15mm as written (just change measurements).
Perhaps because of that, I doubt we will see smaller scale fantasy figures from Mantic any time soon. Why would they give customers a choice to buy in a less expensive scale for their flagship game? There's no sense in cannibalizing your own sales like that.
It's the only open space once ToW drops. And it's more suited to their rulesets. Plus you can be the first to do truly awesome epic scale 10mm fantasy with lots of huge monsters and massive blocks of infantry.
I'll never buy KoW models to play 28mm KoW. But I'd dive hard into 10mm fantasy. I can't be the only one.
Same here.
I thought that kind of thing was very unlikely (going out of 28ish mm), but seeing how another "well known" company other than GW is brave enough to to bellow 10mm gives me hope.
There's already quite a few people doing KoW in 10mm, Luke Fellows started a Facebook Group for it following his "Make Warhammer Tiny" video. Copplestone and Pendraken both make 10mm fantasy ranges, and there's a lot of STL files out there for people to 3D print like Forest Dragon
Making it an official KoW scale would be cool, but too problematic. KoW is Mantic's flagship product, already has their largest minis range and playerbase. Wouldn't make much sense to drop all that for a new scale when people already have full size 28mm KoW armies. That would be real Rackham levels of "spite your current customers to try and build new ones"
For Warpath, the smaller scale for the larger games makes sense as there's far less people playing full size Warpath, especially after Firefight became moderately successful
Having 1 game with 2 models is not a good idea
See Black Powder for having both 28mm and 15mm models for the same game
Yet small scale KoW would work to get the models out with a dedicated rules system that takes advantage of it.
Like taking KoW, mix it with Warmaster, do a 10mm models and mix some Titans in that would be too much for Kings
The more I think about it the more I come to realise KoW should be a 10mm game. A lot of my criticism of the rule set would disappear if it were in that scale.
Luckily, we have a lot of great 10mm models available, so even of Mantic don't eventually do 10mm models, we can play it at the correct scale.
Kalamadea wrote: There's already quite a few people doing KoW in 10mm, Luke Fellows started a Facebook Group for it following his "Make Warhammer Tiny" video. Copplestone and Pendraken both make 10mm fantasy ranges, and there's a lot of STL files out there for people to 3D print like Forest Dragon
Making it an official KoW scale would be cool, but too problematic. KoW is Mantic's flagship product, already has their largest minis range and playerbase. Wouldn't make much sense to drop all that for a new scale when people already have full size 28mm KoW armies. That would be real Rackham levels of "spite your current customers to try and build new ones"
For Warpath, the smaller scale for the larger games makes sense as there's far less people playing full size Warpath, especially after Firefight became moderately successful
I'm not saying abandon the 28mm game. I'm saying do both with things in the small version you can't do in the big version. KoW is a good ruleset but it's hard enough to convince people to play IT let alone say "Hey, you know that fantasy game in 28mm like WFB? What if we played it at 10mm with random models not made by that company?". Official support would enable a community of growth. Not to mention that it's one of the few open spaces left at the moment. KoW failed to take advantage of WFB death like it should have. I'd like to see them set themselves as at least the mainstay of some part of the TTG industry.
What I will say is that I realistically would never touch KOW in its current 28mm scale.
At 10mm scale, sign me the feth up.
Same with Black Powder - would not and did not touch it in 28mm scale, but I'm a couple thousand invested in the three eras they've released so far in epic scale.
I'm not saying abandon the 28mm game. I'm saying do both with things in the small version you can't do in the big version.
You mean like GW did with Warhammer Battle and Warmaster when they coexisted in retail stores ? It didn't end good.
Yeah, KoW works perfectly fine with another scale for miniatures, but I'm not sure it would bring them that much more sales if they actually did it. Competition is already there for that scale, and with damn pretty good sculptors too (especially in the 3D printing world) - with prices Mantic Games can never really hope to reasonnably follow for a profit.
Like it or not, 28mm scale also helps to sell the miniature for a high price enough to keep the company floating. 10mm...it's absolutely not the same mindset. Talking about development, hiring sculptors who know their stuff at this scale (it's not just a matter of simply scaling down, at this scale a lot of things matter to make the miniature sturdy enough) and supporting the range...it's not free as well.
I mean, I've been around since those days. But one thing that Warmaster didn't do very well was make the game about bigger stuff than you could really do on the tabletop. It was a product of the times but they weren't out there focussing on dragon/monster riders, huge regiments of large creaters, solo huge monsters, etc.
The way it stands Mantic is unlikely to see money from me outside of filling a niche that isn't already filled by another company. Mantic is big enough that you can sell it to a group. But not big enough that if GW has a comparative game that GW won't win out for people to play that game.
I want to be able to get games in and so do people that I try and bring in. 28mm Mass Fantasy Battle is.....meh. It's a lot of models to paint for markers.
I'm not saying abandon the 28mm game. I'm saying do both with things in the small version you can't do in the big version.
You mean like GW did with Warhammer Battle and Warmaster when they coexisted in retail stores ? It didn't end good.
Warmaster failed for a number of reasons, cost, and exposure.
It was an all metal game, that required sizeable collections to play. Meanwhile WFB had a good selection of plastic kits. This hobbled the reach of the game, every other GW specialist game has had plastic kits (Necromunder, Battle Fleet Gothic, etc).
It had very little White Dwarf coverage, so didn't drum up interest.
Fast forward to the age of 3D printers and Social Media, and Warmaster is very much alive and more healthier than it has ever been.
Is it really fair to say warmaster failed when it had multiple editions and iterations and derivative rulesets continue to be popular among certain segments of the community?
same as any other good system from GW, successful rules are a failure as GW is a model company
that almost all command&control wargames out there are based on Warmaster is just a proof that it failed to sell models as otherwise it would still be protected by GW Good for the Community = Failure for GW (and success for GW = bad for community)
Which brings me back to Warpath, Mantic should look closer to other games for ideas that are not based on Warmaster or Epic to make something new
They can only compete on the rules site and if GW just brings back the original, no matter how bad it is, it will be played and if Warpath is too similar they cannot really expand on it
that said, with the current niche market, you need plastic models not matter what.
everyone can do 10mm in Resin and there are enough old Warhammer and 40k files around, 10mm Metal is also available for all kind of settings as well
the one thing missing is plastic, hence why there is a hype for LI as people expect cheap plastic to make it less of a niche
Yet with GW it will be cheaper to buy a resin printer and all the equipment needed rather than an LI army in plastic
And neither KoW nor WP are strong enough in design to compete with the 1:1 copies of GW models on the 10mm STL market.
Not that the unique armies look different and good enough, but why buying Northern Alliance or Plague when you can have Chaos Warriors or GSC for free.
Having Warpath a digital only release will work, but to be successful it needs plastic models, and the same for 10mm Kings of War (with a dedicated rule book that adds some command&control elements, or alternating phases together with larger armies)
Hulksmash wrote: 28mm Mass Fantasy Battle is.....meh. It's a lot of models to paint for markers.
and in 15mm it is even more models to paint
that a 10mm line works next to the 28mm line is only there if there are the necessary rules to support it.
Warlord Games Epic scale works because there are other historical rules you can use the models for, because the only change from Black Powder is that there are more models to paint
which is a reason why people not only use smaller models but also reduce the unit footprint (that is why you see so many people cutting the WG 12mm stripes in halve, so you can actually play small scale games)
Which brings me back to Warpath, Mantic should look closer to other games for ideas that are not based on Warmaster or Epic to make something new
They can only compete on the rules site and if GW just brings back the original, no matter how bad it is, it will be played and if Warpath is too similar they cannot really expand on it
Making something "new" isn't necessarily a good thing. It's easier to work on an existing base (as well as balancing it) than going on a wildly unknown territory with too much novelty.
Besides, Mantic Games profits from selling miniatures first. Not rules. Rules are just a way to use their miniatures, that's all. And that's how all miniature centered game companies work, like it or not.
Having a game is the best way to use them, but in the end, Mantic Games (like GW) doesn't really care what you do with them as long as you keep buying something from them. It's just that they're happier if people buy exclusively all their stuff at their stores, but that really depends on what they offer.
That's why looking at this from solely a "rule competition" is the wrong way to view it, IMHO. It's not about that at all. It's about making something appealing to their players...and it's easy to gather around something they already know rather than something a bit too "alien" from their perspective.
(And since MG has such a reputation of "having good games"...do they really want to mess it up by being too novel with the game system if it turns out the "holy balance" is disastrous or the game turns out to be "too complicated / not fun" ?)
that said, with the current niche market, you need plastic models not matter what.
Total disagree. Depends of a lot of factors here...and if Epic communities managed to flourish with 3D printing or metal miniatures, it's not a hazard. It would have died a long time ago if all other companies were solely focused on plastic : they know they don't have the same funds than GW here.
that is the point, Epic community flourish because they can get the 40k models in 10mm from 3d prints
there is no reason to buy a STL for Enforcer to use as Space Marines, or Asterian to use as Eldar when you can get the original
the only useful ones are GCPS as they can get away as any Imperial Guard Regiment
the only reason to buy count as is that you get a better material or a cheaper price and Mantic selling STLs will never be cheaper than 10mm 40k files
which leaves plastic models is the only way for that niche
for their own game, it does make a difference as well
just taking a look what a difference small scale plastic makes for historical game
Making something "new" isn't necessarily a good thing. It's easier to work on an existing base (as well as balancing it) than going on a wildly unknown territory with too much novelty.
to unknown base for wargames is simply what people playing GW games don't have encountered yet as there is not really anything new by now any more
it is just the question of taking inspiration by a GW game or not
and doing a game that pleases those groups already failed with the last edition of Warpath, and if it is too similar to Epic people will play the GW version even if it worse simply because it is the official one
while those that want something different won't find it in Warpath
Since they've said it's 12mm it's obviously not aimed at being Epic proxies.
As previously established, they need great models, great rules and novelty to have even a chance of surviving in the shadow of GW even if GW sold literal boxes of feces.
That's an interesting point that was just semi-indirectly made. Despite all the hubbaloo about how 3d printing would kill GW, it hasn't. Instead the only businesses harmed seem to be those who existed to provide alternative minis to GWs own. The people opting for 3d prints are those that searched high and low for lower cost or more customizable versions of GWs minis. Overwhelmingly the mainstream market prefers "official" minis and prefers to pay for the real mccoy.
chaos0xomega wrote: That's an interesting point that was just semi-indirectly made. Despite all the hubbaloo about how 3d printing would kill GW, it hasn't. Instead the only businesses harmed seem to be those who existed to provide alternative minis to GWs own. The people opting for 3d prints are those that searched high and low for lower cost or more customizable versions of GWs minis. Overwhelmingly the mainstream market prefers "official" minis and prefers to pay for the real mccoy.
3D production has been a double edged sword for GW, 3D production has made it so much easier to create product. When they released the Falcon there was a whole article about how difficult the process was, now its pretty simple. As for 3d printing....its come so far you would never even know that a miniature is 3D printed especially once its painted. I bought Leviathan just to make sure my scale is correct, but most of my stuff you would never know is 3D printed....except the stuff that is alternative and actually looks better than GW stuff. My "Arcadian Elves" from Hero's Infinite for the most part look better than the 30 year old GW finecast Eldar....its sad.
I would say 3D printing has a long way to go as far as ease of use, its kind of its own hobby in a way...but eventually it will be push button easy. Thats when GW will really have to worry.
problem is, people 3D print GW proxies because it is the cheapest way to play GW games
so it does not hurt GW at all but they profit from it as it increases the player base and those who are willing to spend money on plastic do it for those games with the largest player base
(same as GW profits from pirated rules)
by now GW games have reached the status of "free to play" MMO with a critical mass that makes it impossible for other games to succeed.
A lot of people don't pay anything, or a minimum to play, they 3D print the armies and pirate the rules
this adds the mass of players so the argument to "which game to play" is the GW ones as there is always someone who plays is while it is hard to find people playing something else
so people will play whatever version of Epic GW will release, spending a 600-1000 on a plastic army (and it looks the way that this will be the price for a 3k army), simply because there are already a lot of people playing it and they don't know that those are doing it for cheap with 3D prints
while Warpath is a new game, no one plays and there must be a reason for it, so models are bad and the rules don't have depth/complexity (the 2 arguments on why GW is better, used for everything without ever looking it the competition)
so as long as people play GW games, the only way to sell models is to make them a useful alternative to GW models
which is either making carbon copies, better looking original designs, or being cheaper plastic
while Warpath is a new game, no one plays and there must be a reason for it, so models are bad and the rules don't have depth/complexity (the 2 arguments on why GW is better, used for everything without ever looking it the competition)
Models and rules may be valid reasons for people not to play. But I think "time" is also a big one, that is often forgotten by us fan players.
It takes time to build models, paint them and play a game. The first 2 are part of the Hobby, and it can be a pleasure in itself, but there's also the time needed to play a game. Complex / deep rules have a vicious setback, in that they ask more time. It often makes the game last longer than it should (looking for the rule, rolling a ridiculous amount of dice several times for just knowing if there's a casualty, and so on).
In our modern days, with our busy lives, time is a precious ressource. Free time to play is the key problem here.
The thing is, asking for people to play several game systems (with their separate own miniatures to build and paint) is an impossible task for most people who have a job and a family. Those who have all the time in the world aren't that many - especially those who don't have much money and can be interested in "low cost" miniature games like Mantic. If they play already one, why would they risk the little time / money they have in another they'll barely be able to follow anyway ? So they make choices.
I believe the miniature market is suffering a similar problem from the video game one : they produce too many games asking for too much time that no average human has enough in a day to fulfill. Choices must be made, and because of that, they are winners and losers. Why GW is on top with their core games ? Because they're the most reliable ones...no one wants to invest time and money in a game that may disappear next year for the reason of being "not profitable enough".
The solution may be to make a game that doesn't ask for too much time to play : simple rules, simple models (small scale miniature tend to be easier to paint with simple techniques because details are less important in their case)...and maybe the dreaded "prepainted models" (but that raises another cost / price issue, as many actors who did that know).
I can't put up a post with pics right now because I'm pressed for time, but having had more time to look it over, I wanted to revise my original gushing review of the Archon-produced hard plastic Nightstalker Ambush pack.
I continue to unreservedly recommend the Reaper sprue. That sprue is the closest I've ever seen anyone come to Renedra / GW quality in terms of crisp detail in hard plastic. However, I do not recommend using GW's melt-it-together plastic glue on it. I tried it, and it really didn't take. I ended up using standard superglue. Still, this is a great kit.
The sprue of larger Ogre-sized figures, the Butchers / Ravagers, isn't as perfect. Casting quality is generally good, but there are some thin fissures running across the larger figures that look like they're manufacturing errors rather than intended by design. The fissures are only cosmetic imperfections, and aren't large enough to cause any structural issues. You could putty them over, or if you're not picky like me, they may be thin and small enough that they don't bother you. After the perfection of the Reapers, I find the Butchers / Ravagers disappointing, as the fissures seem to indicate that Archon doesn't have its casting game down as well or as consistently as I'd hoped.
I will update you later with photos to illustrate better what I'm talking about, but it may be awhile. I just wanted to make sure people influenced by my earlier review had the most accurate info possible in the meantime.
Billicus wrote: GW plastic glue is not the best tbh. Wouldn't blame the kit for that necessarily.
It's not a question of blame, just providing info. GW plastic glue doesn't work well on the Mantic Archon kits. Whether that's a big negative or not is up to you. (I myself can live with it just fine.)
I use Revell and never had a problem, put together many kilos of Archon kits.
The cracks in the plastic are more worrying, sounds like when there's a little too little material, or perhaps not hot enough, and plastic coming in through two ports doesn't fully meld together where it meets. I think I last saw this in a GW kit 20+ years ago.
while Warpath is a new game, no one plays and there must be a reason for it, so models are bad and the rules don't have depth/complexity (the 2 arguments on why GW is better, used for everything without ever looking it the competition)
Models and rules may be valid reasons for people not to play. But I think "time" is also a big one, that is often forgotten by us fan players.
It takes time to build models, paint them and play a game. The first 2 are part of the Hobby, and it can be a pleasure in itself, but there's also the time needed to play a game. Complex / deep rules have a vicious setback, in that they ask more time. It often makes the game last longer than it should (looking for the rule, rolling a ridiculous amount of dice several times for just knowing if there's a casualty, and so on).
In our modern days, with our busy lives, time is a precious ressource. Free time to play is the key problem here.
The thing is, asking for people to play several game systems (with their separate own miniatures to build and paint) is an impossible task for most people who have a job and a family. Those who have all the time in the world aren't that many - especially those who don't have much money and can be interested in "low cost" miniature games like Mantic. If they play already one, why would they risk the little time / money they have in another they'll barely be able to follow anyway ? So they make choices.
I believe the miniature market is suffering a similar problem from the video game one : they produce too many games asking for too much time that no average human has enough in a day to fulfill. Choices must be made, and because of that, they are winners and losers. Why GW is on top with their core games ? Because they're the most reliable ones...no one wants to invest time and money in a game that may disappear next year for the reason of being "not profitable enough".
The solution may be to make a game that doesn't ask for too much time to play : simple rules, simple models (small scale miniature tend to be easier to paint with simple techniques because details are less important in their case)...and maybe the dreaded "prepainted models" (but that raises another cost / price issue, as many actors who did that know).
It does suck when a game you invest in dies. I still use a bunch of Mutant Chronicles Warzone miniatures as imperial guard. GW isn't really immune to that though, The GW graveyard is pretty large.
Matt talking about he general ideas behind and why they do it
also there are already much more responses than expected and it is very close between full plastic and full digital which let them consider both
Matt also mentions why they struggle with Rebs currently because staying true to the background makes it hard for a plastic release and not easy to port them from Deadzone to Firefight
He also mentions that there will be 1-2 new factions next year
Says they could put 1 each of about 8 different things on a sprue and just spam that sprue and you'd have the core army. Then probably STL for specialists. Sure is gonna be more friendly to the wallet that GW's 4 tanks per box.
well, no matter what they do it will be more friendly to the wallet than GW
my personal guess is that the Tank Upgrades on the Vault are a test for STL release before retail release and depending on how this works out and/or how many vendor license they sell going with a STL heavy faction with 1-2 plastic frames will be an option
lord_blackfang wrote: Says they could put 1 each of about 8 different things on a sprue and just spam that sprue and you'd have the core army. Then probably STL for specialists. Sure is gonna be more friendly to the wallet that GW's 4 tanks per box.
They could talk about infantry and not tanks, you know. Wait for the final sprues and prices before saying that. It's generally better on long term.
Of course, if they do STL files, it doesn't matter at all what they intend to put on a sprue. Just sell the individual files. And that is the cheapest way to build a big scale army. Also more eco-friendly than mass production plastic.
kodos wrote: Matt talking about he general ideas behind and why they do it
also there are already much more responses than expected and it is very close between full plastic and full digital which let them consider both
Matt also mentions why they struggle with Rebs currently because staying true to the background makes it hard for a plastic release and not easy to port them from Deadzone to Firefight
He also mentions that there will be 1-2 new factions next year
Now that licensing sprues from other manufacturers is a thing it would be great to see the Maelstrom's Edge Broken as the Rebs sprue, perfect fit.
That set is a good example of what Matt said already during 2nd Edition Deadzone they want to avoid, the humanoid with different heads aliens
and simply just having a frame with bodies and legs/arms you can apply randomly might be a solution but not be considered a good set for beginners
and 1 of each on a frame will end up with people not having enough of what they want but too much of everything else
but I still hope they figure something out for them that gets the variety of aliens they want and is usable for the players
Erfgh. I would not be making any business decisions based on survey results alone. I've seen a number of smaller publishers in the tabletop games arena run these surveys about what they should do next and what people are interested in, they get tons of response, overwhelming support indicating that theres demand behind a certain product or whatever, so they go ahead and make it, and then crickets - nobody buys it. Its very easy for someone to say "I want this thing to exist", but that doesn't mean that once it does exist they will rush out to open their wallet and buy it.
Jamey Stegmaier had a pretty good blog entry about this:
Long story short, he received a lot of feedback that there was a need for improved accessibility (the playing cards were not vision friendly) for his hit board game, wingspan (if you haven't heard of it, it was one of those games that came out and was selling out before stores could even get it on the shelves, one of those rare board game successes where theres millions (1.7 million copies to be exact) of copies printed and sold, etc.). He ran a survey, received overwhelming responses that people did want them, printed 2500 sets of these vision-friendly cards as a trial run... and then in a month after launching them only managed to sell 175 copies.
chaos0xomega wrote: Erfgh. I would not be making any business decisions based on survey results alone.
Agreed. GMT Games has a P500 system which they've been using for *years*.
Buyers of a game *approve* of a charge, and when they have 500 such buyers, their cards *are* charged. While GMT customers are still paying much like a webstore, I think there's more commitment involved per buyer, even if perhaps there are fewer actual buyers than those who are "just interested". https://www.gmtgames.com/t-GMTP500Details.aspx
Also, of course, there's KS for crowdfunding and mebbe Patron. Whatever works.
I suppose they could do a limited release, perhaps a couple of sprues in a starter set and see what the response is like?
But the difficulty then is that perhaps the starter set does get some momentum, which is then lost when there is the delay of tooling new sets or planning future releases and that initial group of early adopters get bored playing with just a couple of factions with a limited range.
I don't envy them making the decision, but I am glad that Mantic is still trying to stay in the wargaming industry and planning things like this, and not just doing the one-off licensed board games and the like, which are doubtless more profitable. Ultimately it's better for us as consumers that there are at least a few alternatives to GW games.
My Terrain Crate 3 items arrived today.
I pledged for the 'alien forest' set, with some of the forest/alien forest neoprene forest shapes and added on the craters.
1. The main item I pledged for, the alien forest items are fantastic. Good solid heavy plastic with magnet holes to allow some modularity. I'm really glad I got these, I just need to figure out some paint schemes for them.
2. The neoprene cutout forest are exactly what I expected and will be useful in games.
3. The craters are disappointing. Very thin - feels like they're made of the stuff board game inserts are made of. They also have a 1cm flat edge around them.
Also, the forest pieces were all bagged and numbered, I'm not sure if there were supposed to be a fixed amount of specific plants or not.
I received: #1 (x3), #2 (x3), #3 (x3), #4 (x4), #5 (x2), #6 (x2)
did not pledge the craters as I expected them to be some kind of vacuum formed plastic (and those kind of craters were already disappointing from GW)
best way to handle those will be to glue them on a base and fill them with some kind of resin foam
but good to know that the forest items are good as those were the main thing anyway
Gimgamgoo wrote: My Terrain Crate 3 items arrived today.
I pledged for the 'alien forest' set, with some of the forest/alien forest neoprene forest shapes and added on the craters.
1. The main item I pledged for, the alien forest items are fantastic. Good solid heavy plastic with magnet holes to allow some modularity. I'm really glad I got these, I just need to figure out some paint schemes for them.
2. The neoprene cutout forest are exactly what I expected and will be useful in games.
3. The craters are disappointing. Very thin - feels like they're made of the stuff board game inserts are made of. They also have a 1cm flat edge around them.
Also, the forest pieces were all bagged and numbered, I'm not sure if there were supposed to be a fixed amount of specific plants or not.
I received: #1 (x3), #2 (x3), #3 (x3), #4 (x4), #5 (x2), #6 (x2)
Good to know! Also have the forest in my pledge with a few other stuff (think I have the "debris" one too), so if they are good, that's gonna be fun! Craters seems to be vac-formed stuff by your description, a bit disappointing really. I was expecting them to be the same material as the trees and stuff. If they are vac-formed, we might be able to use them as mould and make more at least (did that before with another vac-forced scenery with some success).
I got the 6' x 4' mat, the forest crate, and the scatter terrain crate. Likewise just a UPS notification.
Quality of the mat ('Grim Battlefield') is good - I'd say as good as the DeepCut ones in terms of print quality. Certainly not as blurred as previous efforts from DeadZone, and not so thick that it weighs a ton when rolled up. Some fold marks from the box it originally came in, but these feel minor. It also comes with a handy (albeit extremely cheap-feeling) carry bag for when it is rolled up!
The detail on the pieces does feel like what was advertised from the renders and painted examples. I feel the main weakness of the PVC material is on thin elements that can be bendy, but this has all been sculpted as very chunky and with as few discrete pieces as possible. It very much does feel like you could paint, varnish, and toss loosely in a box without fear of damage. The trees are also alien enough that I think they could work at any scale, which is a bonus!
Got my terrain box today! I had forgotten the exact content of my pledge so that was a fun unboxing!
I got the forest crate and the battlefield scatter terrain crate, along most mat template set for forests/ruins.
Each crate have so many pieces in there, that's a lot of terrain in each one! Gonna be really fun to get these all out and check them in more details later! Looks really good for a first impression too
The mats template sets are also pretty cool, print is nice and good quality!
Though I had the craters but after checking my pledge, I skipped those apparently
I dont think hes poor shaming, I think hes pointing out that Mantic is launching a larger and more complete game than Legions Imperialis despite being a fraction of the size of GW.
The air brushed prime stuff worked out fine.
