Oh, I'm not worried about MG here. It will be a kickstarter, they know how to hype and advertise it, they have a faithful community that is always there when they need it, so they'll easily gather close to 1 million IMHO.
Let's see what they'll show. They have big names working on the rules, so it sounds promising. Good thing it's Q1 2024, launching now is not a good time period for Kickstarters.
Though TBH, I don't believe Matt here when he says MG chose Kickstarter after talking with their fans, as if it was really what they were asking MG to do. I think Kickstarter was always what MG planned to do, because they know that's how they can gather a whole lot of money in a short amount of time (it's merely a giant pre-order, at this point). And MG certainly needs it.
I'm not a fan of this strategy of always using Kickstarters, but it's just my personnal opinion on the topic. I just hope MG isn't going the Spartan Games way, that's all.
I think Mantic could release it without KS by doing a book/PDF and resin minis/STLs but many people would rather see a KS so they can get lots of frames of plastic miniatures.
I've personally been asking Ronnie to do this scale of game for the last 8 or so years whenever I see him at shows and things.
I've personally been asking Ronnie to do this scale of game for the last 8 or so years whenever I see him at shows and things.
According to the video, that's what Ronnie always wanted to do with Warpath : big epic battles with huge armies, and a smaller scale is the easiest way to represent that.
I suppose Mantic did plan to do a KS anyway, but I believe them that customers also prefer this release model for them as it's clearly faster and cheaper than the releases that have gone straight to retail. Mantic is one of the prime culprits that people expect insane value in wargaming KS in the first place.
lord_blackfang wrote: I suppose Mantic did plan to do a KS anyway, but I believe them that customers also prefer this release model for them as it's clearly faster and cheaper than the releases that have gone straight to retail. Mantic is one of the prime culprits that people expect insane value in wargaming KS in the first place.
Customers in UK, without any doubts. Customers from other countries...not so much. Value is quickly crippled with import taxes.
But Mantic Games is a UK company and they always listened more to their UK community. It's perfectly normal and logical.
However, there should be something made for the 3D printing community, and if files are part of the Kickstarter, that's a whole another outcome since they can be delivered with a simple download link.
wasn't a problem with the latest terrain crate, and we will see how DSO works out, the only KS from them I ever did but in general it looks like they found ways to solve that problem
and yes, Ronnie always wanted to have the big battles but in the past he did not want to do a dedicated model line but 28mm to keep compatible with the other company
(something he once said to be his biggest mistake in the past 10 years)
and there will be STLs as per the videos/articles, question is just what those will be
Hmmm. First Mantic Kickstarter in a long time I'm somewhat interested in! Depending on what they produce, and how much they charge, might be a good way to get some small scale sci fi...
Sarouan wrote: Though TBH, I don't believe Matt here when he says MG chose Kickstarter after talking with their fans, as if it was really what they were asking MG to do. I think Kickstarter was always what MG planned to do, because they know that's how they can gather a whole lot of money in a short amount of time (it's merely a giant pre-order, at this point).
Well we already discussed this on a video. We were planning on a more limited straight to retail launch but it would have hit at exactly the same time as LI, so rather than go head to head with the guys down the road, we put it out to the community via survey and after about 2000 or so responses, the overwhelming feedback was to make it a bigger thing using KS. So we are
Dungeon Saga Origin kickstarter recently announced they should be soon begin to ship the rewards once they received everything in their hubs (estimation is about end of november for everything, so that best outcome of backers getting their stuff before Christmas looks really on track). Everything should be done before this Warpath Kickstarter, which is the best look for everyone and give fair confidence and good will for the next. The Hype building will have very sane foundations and give an overall positive feeling.
I've been very critical about them in the past (and I admit, quite negative), but this time for me, they give good signals. I still don't like the way they use Kickstarters, but at some point, I have to get over it - they're not gonna change their business model if it works and that's normal in the end. If the majority of their community is happy with it, let's roll with it.
I wonder what they intend to do with terrain at this scale. I somewhat expect building / ruins sprues but mostly because it's a classical / safe choice from previous games from other companies made at this scale. Maybe they can do something more exotic for 3D printing files, since it could be a more risky move for going plastic (meaning they're not sure about sales being high enough to fund plastic production).
Either way, let's enjoy our time and see what the next blogs will reveal.
Sarouan wrote: Though TBH, I don't believe Matt here when he says MG chose Kickstarter after talking with their fans, as if it was really what they were asking MG to do. I think Kickstarter was always what MG planned to do, because they know that's how they can gather a whole lot of money in a short amount of time (it's merely a giant pre-order, at this point).
Well we already discussed this on a video. We were planning on a more limited straight to retail launch but it would have hit at exactly the same time as LI, so rather than go head to head with the guys down the road, we put it out to the community via survey and after about 2000 or so responses, the overwhelming feedback was to make it a bigger thing using KS. So we are
Thansk for answering, Matt. I know I've been quite disrespectful in the past about that, had a lot of anger in me at that time. Really appreciate your time here.
lord_blackfang wrote: Would be nice to get a small scale terrain set that wasn't gothic ruins tbh
Warpath universe isn't really gothic, to me. It's more "classical SF", I expect buildings more like Infinity. Alien buildings like a Forgefather mining outpost or Asterian drone factory would be really cool (and a deeper connection to their background, IMHO).
Can the Plague have infested terrain, too ? I don't remember if it's just about bodies or if they do stuff like tyranids / zergs with "parasitic buildings" or the likes.
Oh otherwise this set looks just right, has sci-fi industrial and plague-infected parts and scales down perfectly, I've already test printed some at 25%
Sarouan wrote: Though TBH, I don't believe Matt here when he says MG chose Kickstarter after talking with their fans, as if it was really what they were asking MG to do.
They didn't ask "should we launch on kickstarter?", they asked "should we do a big range of plastic models for this or sell stls?" and the response was plastic. The tooling to produce plastic kits is expensive, therefore kickstarter because they need a lot more money up front to go this route.
If they can actually achieve this type of detail at an affordable cost in absolute terms (not just relative to GW's offerings) then it might be a success and an alternative to 3d printing. I think their designs and levels of detail translate well to the new scale if this preview image from August is any indication.
warboss wrote: If they can actually achieve this type of detail at an affordable cost in absolute terms (not just relative to GW's offerings) then it might be a success and an alternative to 3d printing. I think their designs and levels of detail translate well to the new scale if this preview image from August is any indication.
For transparency, that was just to show the scale. Those are 28mm models reprinted at small size. We do intend to get as close to that level of detail as we can though. I've got an article coming up in a few weeks talking about scales and sculpting and we will start to show of renders of actual sculpts before then I think too.
lord_blackfang wrote: Would be nice to get a small scale terrain set that wasn't gothic ruins tbh
If it’s the same scale as Dropzone Commander, you can have Art Deco buildings in resin or card. There used to be an amazing line of plasticard buildings, but they’re long OOP.
The last KS from mantic I backed was the first Dungeon Saga one, because at the time it was as close as I could see to Heroquest/Warhammer Quest come again. I've been pretty happy with that choice, have it all painted, played some games and also use the minis for RPGs often.
This is the first one of theirs since then where I've gone "Oh, yes?" because it hits that Epic itch that's been growing for me for some time. I know there are people doing great Epic minis but none that I can easily access where I am without customs faff since brexit. So Mantic making something that might get a more general release (even if short) with 4 proper factions from the start is really appealing.
Like with GW's Warhammer Quest update, I'm not that interested in their Epic update, because I expect the price to be out of my comfort zone and it's subject matter isn't what I really want - I want aliens and faction diversity, so the Heresy isn't it.
I hope it's a big success for Mantic. I'm not sure my own tastes are a good barometer for what's successful any more, but there must be other people who feel somewhat the same, outside of the Mantic core audience?
And those two on the rules is a plus for me, I think the KOW rules are really solid. I just hope the game has proper suppression mechanics and isn't just about killing units.
Like with GW's Warhammer Quest update, I'm not that interested in their Epic update, because I expect the price to be out of my comfort zone and it's subject matter isn't what I really want - I want aliens and faction diversity, so the Heresy isn't it.
I hope it's a big success for Mantic. I'm not sure my own tastes are a good barometer for what's successful any more, but there must be other people who feel somewhat the same, outside of the Mantic core audience?
And those two on the rules is a plus for me, I think the KOW rules are really solid. I just hope the game has proper suppression mechanics and isn't just about killing units.
same here, yet I am a little concerned about the rules because I am more in for something new and dynamic rather than classic Epic but streamlined
not that I expect bad rules but just not something I want from battalion/brigade style games
Eilif wrote: Do we have confirmation that Warpath is 6/8mm? I don't see anything specific in the previous posts.
12mm. Infantry 4 to a base (round). Walkers 1 to a base (round). Tanks on bases (oval).
I think Matt said 12mm for Enforcers so 10mm for the rest? Hopefully this stays the case I got to look at the Legions Imperialis infantry today and they are just to small and lacking in detail so I hope Warpath can be the Epic scaled game for me.
Eilif wrote: Do we have confirmation that Warpath is 6/8mm? I don't see anything specific in the previous posts.
12mm. Infantry 4 to a base (round). Walkers 1 to a base (round). Tanks on bases (oval).
I think Matt said 12mm for Enforcers so 10mm for the rest? Hopefully this stays the case I got to look at the Legions Imperialis infantry today and they are just to small and in lacking detail so I hope Warpath can be the Epic scaled game for me.
Thank you.
Sounds like the terrain will be close enough for my tastes, and probably the vehicles and infantry as well, especially nonhuman infantry. I really hope the focus is on the vehicles, though; a plastic kit that was 50%infantry would be unattractive to me.
Alessio being part of the rules team fills me with happiness. He did the original 28mm Warpath back when it was little more than Kings of War in Space, but I rather enjoyed that version and bought several starter sets at the time.
Just picked up Firefight which is the spiritual successor to that era of Warpath, but I'm looking forward to some huge games in 12mm.
lord_blackfang wrote: I want to go on record saying I'm against basing tanks and that Flames of War bases look better than rounds. Thanks.
I agree. I dislike vehicles on bases. I wouldn't mind troops on rounds or rectangles with rounded corners, but I really dislike seeing oval bases.
Edit: And I hope they decide on a 10mm scale. I have 25/28mm terrain, 15mm, 10mm terrain and some 6mm stuff. I think I'll draw the line at another game needing a whole new set of terrain. I'd rather spend the money/time/effort on minis.
lord_blackfang wrote: I want to go on record saying I'm against basing tanks and that Flames of War bases look better than rounds. Thanks.
I like bases for tanks but agree that rectangular looks better than round for
I never understood the anti tank base bias. Not basing them makes your infantry look deceptively larger by comparison. Depending on the game it also results in a bunch of unncessary degrees of complexity and arguments about which hull zone you're hitting or firing arcs, etc.
I'm pro bases for vehicles, I always found it odd that they were the only thing not on bases in other games. And it makes a lot of rules simpler.
Happy with 10-12mm as will work with dropzone stuff. Having terrain usable between both will be handy. Also opens up the possibility of using stuff for both, such as gcps as resistance.
I am kind of ambivalent about the bases thing. I know it's fairly popular even at 15mm scale (Flames of War & the forged in battle range), it's mostly just laziness that stops me from doing it.
Scale-wise for the game I don't mind that much. It should be close enough in scale that I can use Epic/Legions terrain, and Alessio being involved gives me great hope for the ruleset.
I'm pro tanks being on bases but only if the bases are round and distances are measured to/from bases. All other methods of doing it are either hard to judge properly (see dropzone and it's centre of model to centre of model method), or result in turning on the spot changing the distance between things and having modelling decisions matter to gameplay (like 40k where old/new rhino models are different sizes).
Have a lot of faith in Alessio and Matt in terms of rules writing.
WHFB 6th, LotR, KoW are top-tier games, the general trick is to not overcomplicate things too much and have any complexity which is in there match the narrative or the miniatures.
As far as terrain goes, I play KoW at 10mm, and both 6mm and 15mm terrain works pretty well, the only exception is buildings.
mattl wrote: Yeah I don’t see 6mm vs. 12mm being that different for terrain. It’s all so vague in the marketplace.
For natural things I totally agree. Trees, bushes, hedges, rivers, hills. But buildings are the ones that can look really out of place.
And I figure a lot of Warpath games won't be fighting across rolling green fantasy battle style fields.
Yeah, you're talking about a 100% difference in scale factor there, all your minis will be twice the size at 12mm compared to 6mm. You can get away with hills and trees and rivers and the like, your natural features will become half as imposing, but they are usable. Anything else though? Yeah, no.
that 6 and 12mm needs different sized terrain is not a problem
no one complains that their existing 6mm epic or battletech terrain is not compatible anymore with the new LI stuff
or that the existing 28mm 40k terrain collection does not fit the new 32mm scaled models or is not compatible with the new rules
yet Mantic must take care that they make models that fits existing collection, despite there is no defined standard in that scale at all outside of 1/144
looking at different older miniature lines that are advertised at 10mm, a 12mm Enforcer would be smaller than some of those 10mm models
and the only thing were different sized terrain could be a problem would be True Line of Sight but given that even the 28mm games use height values I doubt that Warpath will have that
so if the building is in 12mm or 10mm is less of an issue and looks less out of place than 28mm terrain with 32mm models
12mm is 100% larger than 6mm. That means that terrain sized for 6mm is half as small as it should be when used with 12mm models, or terrain sized for 12mm models is twice as large as it should be when used with 6mm models. These are not interchangeable. If you have a 6mm scale house, your 12mm models will be larger than the doors and windows. If you have a 12mm scale house, your 6mm models wouldn't be tall enough to reach the doorknob. Its kind of a huge problem.
32mm is only 12.5% larger than 28mm. Using 28mm terrain models with 32mm models, or 32mm terrain with 28mm models is not a problem. 12.5% is less than the natural human variance in height.
Likewise, 12mm is only 20% larger than 10mm, terrain sized for one will be fine with another.
But not when the terrain is literall half or twice the size it should be as would be the case with 6mm vs 12mm.
and no one ever should expect 6mm terrain to fit larger scale
it does not matter if this is 12mm, 10mm or 15mm, 6mm stuff won't fit at all
and there is no reason why Mantic should go for 6mm when Battletech covers that spot very well while GW is going for their very own "1/4th of whatever the large stuff is" small game
anything larger will fit fine, as the difference between 10mm and 12mm is not big enough to make a difference for terrain
and if people thought they are going to use their old GW Epic stuff because it won't fit the new GW Epic game, they still can if they want and it will look out of place no matter the scale of Warpath
Pacific wrote: I am used to all of my Epic scale trees being giant Canadian Redwoods, except alien ones that are already double the size of those ones!
Trees are always wildly out of scale. Even at Epic scale, true-sized redwood trees would dwarf everything else at the table.
If you had 6mm already and wanted this game to match with them, I can see being a bit upset. But I'm interested in this game precisely because I DON'T have an existing small scale collection, and this is an accessible and hopefully (!) affordable way to get one.
If I had 6mm or 10mm stuff already I wouldn't be interested in this, I'd be 3D printing more or whatever. But I'm not into 3D printing, so this is what I've got available for Sci Fi.
The main thing I'm hoping is that Marauders get some stuff in the KS. I dunno if it's still the done thing with KS to have lots of stretch goals, I stopped paying attention some time around 2018, but do people with more experience think it's likely that Marauders and the non-Enforcer humans will get releases? Because they're my favourite Mantic Sci Fi factions...
.. the two planned armies in the box – Enforcers and Plague, with plenty of infantry, tanks (Enforcer Panther tanks!) and walkers. These armies have had the most playtesting. The follow-up two are planned to be Forge Fathers and Asterians.
Better to fully fund that than half do a few armies.
Funding wise the OG Warpath KS took $485K, most of their wargame KS take in the region of £300k to £400k. The OG Deadzone at $1.2m is an outlier partly fueled by the terrain and hasn't got close since. On that basis expect 4 armies and terrain anything over their normal funding levels might see more added.
Glad to hear they're going with ~10mm scale (wtih 12mm Enforcers). Allowing all but the most exacting of the scale police to proxy in their Dropzone Commander or (new) Epic minis (and probably vice versa) will hopefully work well for them. I had thought I had read somewhere they were sticking with 30mm, and I was thinking I'd pass - I played a "small" game of Firefight (at 30mm) and the board was PACKED. I didn't think they could make it work at that scale....
lol, turns out I'm right, I guess?
And Plague vs. Enforcers for the starter is excellent. I'll be in on day one.
I wonder how well it will do. Got great designer chops (hooray Matt, good to see your fingerprints on this one!) and if the minis look decent... I don't know if they'll crack a million... But hopefully it'll do OK
Hopeful for it to be expanded to 8 factions, but 4 is pretty good to start with.
A good basis for creating additional factions without too much additional outlay would be having striders, hornets, mules (and some new tanks) etc. as common vehicle sprues which could be used across GCPS/Marauders/Plague/Rebs since they all have the same tech base.
Plague vs. Enforcers is solid as starter factions, two very iconic and very different factions which were also the launch factions for deadzone v1, so it's going full circle.
Small elite high-tech faction vs. endless slavering hordes is a classic matchup which will work great at the scale.
The main thing I'm hoping is that Marauders get some stuff in the KS. I dunno if it's still the done thing with KS to have lots of stretch goals, I stopped paying attention some time around 2018, but do people with more experience think it's likely that Marauders and the non-Enforcer humans will get releases? Because they're my favourite Mantic Sci Fi factions...
I've only done one Mantic KS in recent years - Dungeon Saga Origins, it didn't have any stretch goals as such, but it did daily reveals.
I think that Ronnie said something along the lines of "treating people like adults", so the fake stretch goals thing got ditched for that.
yeah, those stretch goals for stuff they want to do anyway was replaced by daily reveals which has the same purpose, to get people come back at the end to sse what more they can get
for the KS itself, Ronni has given several interviews on Kickstarter related channels to talk about the actual cost and how important it is to have a plan for what to do after (so that you don't run into the problem if needing to make a KS to get money to fulfill the previous one)
trying to read between the lines, the initial release was planned with 2 factions and plastic terrain (everything within a single starter box) straight to retail but because of Epic they wanna change that and make a bigger release
so we get 4 factions, hence the KS to get money for the tools to make the 2 additional ones
Options I see here is that if the KS is more successful than expected, they add more factions sooner than later (adding all of the core factions over time from the universe is to be expected anyway) and maybe expand the 4 release ones (though as having several different 2 player sets is part of their general lineup, having to many factions on the first release won't do it)
and something I hope for, that like the last KS we get an offer for language packs on the rules
Hopefully the game does well enough to get some more factions, starting with 4 is already a lot but I'd much rather have Marauders than Asterians personally!
I'd really appreciate it if we didn't get fake stretch goals. But at the same time, I guess those are the norm for a reason and the campaign could do worse without?
The last two KS they ran (Worms and DSO) didn't do Funding Stretch Goals; they pulled in 500k and 400k respectively, which sounds fine for Mantic boardgames kind of funding.
Prior to that (Terraincrate 3), it was traditional Stretch Goals.
Maybe Ronnie's been listening to the street, realised that people are wising up to the falseness of them and ditching them before a lot of the KS projects follow suit. Mantic gets ahead of the game and a bit of honesty always looks good.
I don't get the issue with stretch goals, they might not make sense for some things, but for other things they make sense. what is wrong with stating if we get enough incoming we will add in Xtra which wouldn't otherwise be viable?
I certainly find the description of them being somehow dishonest to be very bizarre - how is the use of stretch goals dishonest? I've yet to feell anyone ripped me off, or was dishonest about stretch goals. I go into something and it states the stretch goals, or stuff gets added in later which is just freebies for me, can't see where the dishonesty lies.
KS is used mainly as a marketing tool by some companies with goals being not there to get extra funding but get people into spending more money than they initial wanted
and yes, it is hard to spot if some goals are really there because they cannot be made without the extra, while others often are things that would have been done anyway
but it also changed what people expect from a KS, as if everything is unlocked within an hour, there is no hype running for the full time and people who don't pledge early won't come back at the end either
so something must be there to keep the people engaged which Mantic has done by daily reveals in past 2 KS while something like the language packs were still a regular Stretch Goal that needed funding to be done
puree wrote: I certainly find the description of them being somehow dishonest to be very bizarre - how is the use of stretch goals dishonest? I've yet to feell anyone ripped me off, or was dishonest about stretch goals. I go into something and it states the stretch goals, or stuff gets added in later which is just freebies for me, can't see where the dishonesty lies.
There are times when items that were always going to get made are presented as stretch goals just to get more hype, to justify spamming updates, and to artificially lower the initial funding target because campaigns that fund quick do better overall. The most blatant, undeniable example are stretch goals that claim new bits will be added to a plastic sprue. Like any company was going to pay for tooling of a sprue with blank spaces in it if they fail to reach that goal Gak like that is dishonest and frankly insulting to our intelligence.
I'm super in. Even the VERY early playtest rules were just so playable and accessible that it felt bull**** free, and meant to be enjoyed. With Alessio and Matt polishing further, I expect a great game, and the scale is one where Mantic's value proposition shines.
If the KS provides genuinely huge armies, at low prices, I will be going in hard for all four armies.
Legion Imperialis is sooooo close to what I wanted it to be, but horrid pricing, and GW's business model means I will be a dabbler at best.
Also, Heresy-era is a turd. I want genuinely diverse armies aesthetically and mechanically, so potentially years and years of Marines vs. Men is deeply annoying.
puree wrote: I don't get the issue with stretch goals, they might not make sense for some things, but for other things they make sense. what is wrong with stating if we get enough incoming we will add in Xtra which wouldn't otherwise be viable?
I certainly find the description of them being somehow dishonest to be very bizarre - how is the use of stretch goals dishonest? I've yet to feell anyone ripped me off, or was dishonest about stretch goals. I go into something and it states the stretch goals, or stuff gets added in later which is just freebies for me, can't see where the dishonesty lies.
I think it's more the way they are presented rather than them being dishonest in terms of ripping people off or mis-selling something. Kind of like a "omg we can't believe we have hit this stretch goal! You are amazing! Here is a new design Dave found down the back of the sofa and we are now going to include!" And then it's a CAD diagram or some artwork that you can see has been properly prepared or a miniature obviously already designed and planned as part of the Kickstarter. So it's more of a removing that pretence.
DISCLAIMER: The game is still in development, and we are conducting playtesting both internally and externally, so some details might be different in the final version!
Today we’re looking at some of the key decisions that we made early on in the process.
A D8 With Destiny
We wanted to make sure EPIC WARPATH felt right at home among the wider Mantic family of sci-fi games.
To that end, EPIC WARPATH uses 8-sided dice (D8s) and Command Dice, just like Firefight and Deadzone. D8s are used for things like shooting and combat, and a player’s Command Dice are a currency they can use during their turns to activate special orders and buy re-rolls.
We love D8’s: there’s something special about them. They just feel and roll differently to a D6 (if you know, you know!) – and crucially allow us a wider range of unit stat possibilities to play with. This means we can make units feel very different without needing extra layers of tests/characteristics to give that granularity.
Imperial Entanglements
The next consideration was the unit of measurement. Sometimes in games at this small scale, it’s very tempting for us to follow our metric instincts and default to centimetres. However, inches are familiar to all wargamers, and we know that we have a big (and fast-growing) fanbase in the US – we want to make sure everyone feels right at home with this game!
A Scale Of A Tale
This is an important one. We played around with lots of different options, making a small-scale t-pose of an enforcer and printing it at different sizes. We were looking for the size that gave us the perfect mix of HUGE battles, but still gave well-defined details that were a realistic and cool painting project for real hobbyists (not just those with superhuman eyesight) and didn’t involve breaking out a microscope!
The scale that did this best was 12mm tall to the top of the head. Our existing Deadzone/Firefight Enforcer models are roughly 36mm to the top of the head, giving us a height reduction to 33% as our ballpark for sculptors to use. For the vehicles, we found that we could play with the scale a little and still have things ‘look right’ on the tabletop, which will let us pack some extra units onto your hard plastic frames!
Speaking of those, we have a very cool plan for our frames, which we’ll talk more about in future…
Get The Base-ics Right
Another important decision! We felt from the very beginning that, as a sci-fi game, having round bases was a necessity. This lines up with the other games in the WARPATH Universe, and keeps the look and feel very distinct from fantasy rank-and-flank gaming.
With the size of the models establish, we designed a special base that would take four Infantry models on one side (e.g. Enforcer Operatives) and two Heavy Infantry on the other (e.g. Plague 2a Leapers). We can’t wait to start sharing some of the models with you in the near future – but for now here are some teasing silhouettes…
We originally started our testing with vehicles on their own bases, but felt it wasn’t adding much. Players are free to base their vehicles if they wish of course, but we think it looks better without and isn’t really necessary. Unless of course your vehicle is a flier – yes, we’re going to have fliers in EPIC WARPATH!
Sizing Up The Situation
Early on in development, we played around a lot with table size a lot to find out what felt right. We made-up test armies, deploying them out on the table in realistic unit ratios (infantry, bikes, walkers, tanks etc) to quickly get an idea of the space they had to operate on the table.
We were delighted to find in playtesting that the game is pretty flexible, and there’s no point having an awkward table size just for the sake of it! We’ve played demo games with smaller forces on 4’ x 4’ tables (120cm x 120cm) and typical games on the traditional 6’ x 4’ (180cm x 120m), with both giving a smooth and exciting game experience.
Let’s Have A Nice Clean Fight
What are we talking about? We’re talking about table clutter…all the stuff on your battlefield that isn’t miniatures or terrain!
While a few important markers may persist, it’s important that most markers used in play are regularly cleared down so that you can ‘read the battlefield’ well at the end of every round.
So what did we choose to keep in play? Only the important stuff that will inform your next turn’s decisions! We’re talking about uncleared Pin markers, and any larger units (think super-heavy tanks…!) that might have Resilience markers. These represent advanced shields or damage-absorbing abilities that haven’t been used or knocked out yet.
In a nutshell, if you need to know about it to avoid ‘gotcha’ moments, it’s marked at the end of the round. If you don’t, it’s gone. We think we got the balance right, and will keep testing to make sure!
Armed & Dangerous
To minimise book-keeping and avoid unnecessary tokens, EPIC WARPATH has no Wounds or Health Points on the unit profile. Yes, now you’re intrigued!
We’re dealing with lethal, large engagements in this game: if a unit is successfully damaged then it’s removed. This keeps things fast, clean – and emphasises the danger of the battlefield. Leave a unit exposed, out of cover, in enemy range, and/or unsupported and they’re at serious risk – just as it should be when massed firepower is being traded back and forth.
Coming Next
In the next article, I’ll run through the structure of the game. Don’t forget to sign up to the EPIC WARPATH campaign page just below to get your reminder when the campaign goes live!
They can of course call the game as they want, and create minis as they want, but they've got a nerve calling it EPIC Warpath when the scale is closer to Flames of war than to traditional Epic (heck, doble the size of classic 6mm).
The mechanics of the system seem amazing though!!! D8 adds a nice touch.
SU-152 wrote: They can of course call the game as they want, and create minis as they want, but they've got a nerve calling it EPIC Warpath when the scale is closer to Flames of war than to traditional Epic (heck, doble the size of classic 6mm).
12mm base to top for Enforcers means basically 10mm wargaming scale (base to eye for humans), that is not close to FoW 15mm
and than Warlord Games calls their smaller games "Epic" as well, with the models being ~13mm scale (base to eye), which would be closer to FoW than Warpath would
yet I do agree that Epic Warpath does not sound right, more like Warpath: Epic (to go with Warpath: FireFight)
lord_blackfang wrote: Alright. None of those things are my favourite way of doing things but they're all good enough ways of doing things (Mantic in a nutshell)
SU-152 wrote: They can of course call the game as they want, and create minis as they want, but they've got a nerve calling it EPIC Warpath when the scale is closer to Flames of war than to traditional Epic (heck, doble the size of classic 6mm).
I'm fairly sure most dictionaries don't define the word Epic as having anything to do with 6mm scale.
Used once by a niche plastic toy soldier company in the 1990's?
Most youth these days would relate the word epic to the pc game platform and fortnite.
SU-152 wrote: They can of course call the game as they want, and create minis as they want, but they've got a nerve calling it EPIC Warpath when the scale is closer to Flames of war than to traditional Epic (heck, doble the size of classic 6mm).
I'm fairly sure most dictionaries don't define the word Epic as having anything to do with 6mm scale.
Used once by a niche plastic toy soldier company in the 1990's?
Most youth these days would relate the word epic to the pc game platform and fortnite.
Ah ok, so they choosing the word EPIC has absolutely nothing to do with creating minis in a smaller scale, like said niche plastic toy soldier company did in the 90s. It is just a nice coincidence
we don't know
the Alpha rules that were shared are still the same yet this was before they announced that Cavatore is back and working with Matt on the game
Sounds great! I am sure the market has room for more than 1 small scale mass market sci-fi game.
And especially if Alessio is in charge, this could be the quick/streamlined game to the 'Britannia Encyclopaedia' of Legions.
On the term 'Epic' it has now been used to denote the small scale in a few places. Warlord have used it for their new small scale games too. As well as that, idiots that list their 40k stuff as that on eBay which I have to scroll through when I am searching for Epic/6mm stuff
So like Legions Imperialis the activation sequence is very derivative of Epic 40.000. This is a good thing as I am bored to death of vanilla alternating activations.
I've seen some previews of the Epic GW game, and what I'd love to see is that the Epic Warpath sprues are designed so that the only joins are on the tiny figures bases... So we can paint them on sprue. Those suckers will be annoying to paint on bases...!
pancakeonions wrote: I've seen some previews of the Epic GW game, and what I'd love to see is that the Epic Warpath sprues are designed so that the only joins are on the tiny figures bases... So we can paint them on sprue. Those suckers will be annoying to paint on bases...!
I've not had much issue with FoW, but the bases are generally rectangular in shape, so less of the models obscuring each other.
If you're an experienced wargamer who can provide insightful feedback, and can attend our next playtest session at Mantic HQ on January 27th (10am-4pm, lunch provided), please drop us an email expressing your interest to playtestfeedback@manticgames.com We look forward to hearing from you!
Mantic looking for (local) playtesters, just posted on Facebook
As discussed previously, our Enforcer Operative models are about 12mm to the top of the head, so about 11m to the eye. A ‘normal’ human would be about 10mm to the eye. So while there is some variation, EPIC WARPATH can be treated as being 10-12mm scale for purposes of modelling and terrain.
We’ve opted for small integrated bases on infantry, walkers and bikes, so that they can “plug” into their larger group bases. As a couple of examples, four Enforcer Operatives (Infantry) would plug into a base to from a small group, or two Plague Bursters (Heavy Infantry) would plug into a base to form a pair. Infantry and Heavy Infantry like this typically have six bases in a Unit and so in our examples, that would be 24 Operatives or 12 Bursters.
Wouldn’t it be easy if we could just simply reduce all the existing sculpts to 33% of the size…but in miniatures design things are never that simple! Bodies, weapons and scaling proportions that work at 28mm often are not a good fit for the epic-scale genre. Some things will simply become too thin or even fall apart. Not only that, but many models need to be redesigned to work as single-piece casts for injection moulding (where those sculpts are destined for hard plastic).
So in a nutshell, that means we are re-sculpting everything for EPIC WARPATH, with proportions and considerations appropriate to the scale and manufacturing materials. We will cram in as much detail as we can of course, but at the size they are we have to get the balance just right!
I bet suddenly TTCombat is starting to sweat realizing how much competition is popping up around them and realizing that they didn't capitalize on Dropzone Commander while they had an effective market monopoly on "epic scale" scifi games.
I think the main issue with 2E is that the rules stripped a lot of the flavor and fun out of the game, moreso than any concern about the size and scale of the models getting too big for peoples liking. 2E's been around for what 5 years now, but they only really started releasing "larger models" within the past year or two.
chaos0xomega wrote: I bet suddenly TTCombat is starting to sweat realizing how much competition is popping up around them and realizing that they didn't capitalize on Dropzone Commander while they had an effective market monopoly on "epic scale" scifi games.
It's a shame too, as they had a framework of a really great game. If the "new" owners had given the rules an unbiased pass for revisions, clarifications, and balance, it could've been special.
Even at epic scale there’s still room for a tactical rock! Hopefully there is a 3rd variant for the bigger guys or they will look very samey repeated over and over.
The problem with Mantic is that they are their own worst enemy. In the quest to push GW's nose in it, Ronny and Company have forgotten the basic rule of wargames. You have to sell it and people want to play it.
Great that they want to try to get into the 6mm range of games, but the real issue is that Mantic is poor at continued support of their products.
I have no less then 5 games from them. I bought in on their KS's, I was a big fan of Mars Attacks, KOW, Dwarven Quest, and I loved the Walking Dead game.
Mantic takes the piss and treats their properties so poorly that they have developed a reputation in my small neck of the woods as cash grabbers. At this point here- NO ONE wants a mantic product, because they do not support their ranges. They come up with a halfway decent product, rush it to market, or carry it's weight through KS pledges, and then forget about it 5 minutes after the game goes to the backers. I even got a heads up the other day that Mantic is getting back into The Walking Dead business. I should be happy. A new release and be able to fill my blanks with stuff a second time around, but instead I just don't care anymore.
Mantic is not a property that resells well, either, when no one plays the games. If they really want to help themselves, and their "Great Idea Fairy's", they need to sustain support of their product, and stop looking at GW with the grudge match thinking they have carried since they left..
The worst thing about it is that they have the solid talent, but they hamstring their own efforts by the "I don't give a damn" public face.
I'm certain that Walking Dead releases dragged on for years and years, I remember being frustrated that they took up so much of the schedule when I wasn't interested in it.
Mantic is a more successful version of Spartan Games IMO, at least from a business perspective (but IMO less successful in terms of developing valuable IP as their games are too married to the idea of being not-GW to really go out and try to be something unique or different enough to stand on its own merits). They have too many ideas and want to do to many things but lack the resources to properly support it all simultaneously. To some extent its the dynamics of the market at work and the need to chase the money by catering to the "cult of the new", but if they focused on just doing one thing really well and building that out, they would eventually find themselves in a stable enough position to try doing a second or a third thing really well too.
Well, they are doing licensed games because those sell
as soon as they stop selling the licence gets too expensive or is not renewed for other reasons and they stop making it
Walking Dead was really doing well until the TV show stopped being popular and with that the game was not popular any more so the licence was not renewed (from either side)
The other thing is, making something that can also be used for other games and not just you own IP is the save bet for a small company as even if your own game is not popular, people still buy the models
Doing something on their own means finding a niche not yet covered and try to get into that before someone else is doing it in addition to making an IP
Warpath is around for a long time now, the IP slowly developing and the only really successful game within that IP was Deadzone simply because it filled a gap
the big battle SciFi always struggled and 3rd Edition saw the problem that what worked for KoW (unit footprint and multibasing) was not popular in 28mm SciFi
it was suggested many times over the years to go a different scale for the big battles and for the SciFi IP it really looks like Mantic is just searching the big battle spot that works by trial and error
the same way they are searching for the fantasy skirmish niche
lord_blackfang wrote: It's going to be funny to see Mantic make minis with significantly less flooded undercuts than LI
And tragic to see some of the same people who say it's an inevitable limitation of the tech when GW does it completely trashing on Mantic for it.
Considering who mantic uses for their plastics production, and the quality of the undercuts on the minis they've produced for another company in the same scale, I think you're expecting too much from Mantic.
Unfortunately, Mantic and GW took so long to get a new "Epic" scale game on the market, that the surprising renaissance success of Battletech pulled me in after 20+ years of flirting with it.
For some reason I never really got into Epic 40K when it was out, despite playing most of the other games of that era like Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, etc. So now pushing around 6mm scale mechs, helicopters and tanks in games of Alpha Strike are how I am working hard at recapturing a facet of my youth.
I also don't know why "Epic" Warpath isn't in 6mm scale. Even if I didn't play the game proper, I would end up buying a bunch of stuff for other 6mm games.
chaos0xomega wrote: Considering who mantic uses for their plastics production, and the quality of the undercuts on the minis they've produced for another company in the same scale, I think you're expecting too much from Mantic.
Oh, this is news to me, which smallscale game is Archon casting minis for?
Huh, weird I thought they still used Renedra for all their Kings of War stuff, guess I was mistaken. I personally have not been impressed by the quality any of Mantics more recent plastics, so if thats the best that Archon can do then I think you're all going to be pretty disappointed.
chaos0xomega wrote: Huh, weird I thought they still used Renedra for all their Kings of War stuff, guess I was mistaken. I personally have not been impressed by the quality any of Mantics more recent plastics, so if thats the best that Archon can do then I think you're all going to be pretty disappointed.
Which recent plastics did you get? Archon makes the plastic Ogres and plastic Nightstalker Butchers and Reapers. They also make all the modern Conquest kits (Wadrhun and onwards) plus their own range of dozens of sprues that can match Warhammer Underworlds for detail and complexity of part cuts.
Well, the renders so far look good. Don't particularly care if the game has legs or not, as long as the minis end up great.
The "We're not using wounds, don't mind the superheavies having a suspiciously wound like mechanic" is annoying marketing bs, but that's just how the world works these days.
AegisGrimm wrote:Unfortunately, Mantic and GW took so long to get a new "Epic" scale game on the market, that the surprising renaissance success of Battletech pulled me in after 20+ years of flirting with it.
For some reason I never really got into Epic 40K when it was out, despite playing most of the other games of that era like Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, etc. So now pushing around 6mm scale mechs, helicopters and tanks in games of Alpha Strike are how I am working hard at recapturing a facet of my youth.
I also don't know why "Epic" Warpath isn't in 6mm scale. Even if I didn't play the game proper, I would end up buying a bunch of stuff for other 6mm games.
they talked about this on their FB page.. basically 6mm was too small to get good enough detail in plastic. so they played around with different scales to balance good looking minis with playability.
honestly even battletech has moved more towards an 8mm scale in part so they could do the battlearmor in the same scale as the mechs, without them being too tiny to do in plastic. (and if you look at some of the sacrifices GW had to do to get plastic space marines in Imperialis, you can see some of the issues CGL had to face in the effort)
kodos wrote:This was 10 years ago, after the not always successful expedition to China for their tooling Archon is now doing all of their plastics
And as they are making new sculpts for the new scale to work with Archons process the chance that it turns out badly is pretty low
yeah, their use of Archon for the plastic production is also why they can use those wolverine tanks from the Rampart KS and the Gates of Antares concord dronetanks in firefight now. Archon makes both, making it easier to work deals to get them.
Battletech is very much still scaled to 6mm - the minis are officially (per catalyst) 1/265 scale, which is the actual equivalent of what most hobbyists understand/believe 6mm to be.
The scale that everyone throws around as being the equivalent of 6mm (1/285th scale) is based on US/NATO standards which established 1mm to equal 1ft. The problem with this, of course, is that if the community defines mm sizing to mean height to "eye level", then your average mini at 1/285 is going to be about 6'6" tall instead of the US/NATO defined standard height of 5'7". In reality the US/NATO standard says that the average human in this scale should stand 5.7mm tall to the top of the head - which actually makes 1:285 a good bit smaller than what we all would consider 6mm to mean.
8mm is roughly equivalent to somewhere between 1:180 and 1:200, which is quite a bit larger still.
Thus Catalyst changing the scale was not really anything to do with "getting good enough detail in plastic" (which is very much possible at 1/285 and smaller scales), but to align with what the broader community assesses 6mm to indicate.
Those models look nice, apart from the two random bits of metal on the end of the barrel on the Plague vehicle. Hope those get removed when they finalise the design.
That's very good news. I think just the two factions at launch would have got stale quite quickly (although one could say that Legions seems to be managing just fine with that!)
Is this the right place to ask if anyone knows when Dungeon Saga Origins is getting a general release?
KoW topic would be better
but retailers who did the Kickstarter have it already in stock, though without language packs which should be there end of January
I'm really looking forward to seeing what tank designs they come up with for this game,bas hopefully the scale will allow for some radical things than the 28mm game.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what tank designs they come up with for this game,bas hopefully the scale will allow for some radical things than the 28mm game.
On another train of thought...
Will Mantic rescale and use the Antares drone or Wolverine that's now in Firefight?
I have an Asterian starter I recently bought for Fire Fight ... that I would happily bin to run them in Warpath instead Anyway, Mantic has my attention as factions have expanded.
I don't know if anyone locally would play it but I may be interested in jumping in just because I think forge fathers at this scale could be fun to model and paint.
It's nice to see them printed and painted, it's super-hard to judge small scale minis on the render alone since the proportions will always look off and the foreshortening of 3d rendering doesn't always match reality all that well if the camera is too close in the software (you want wide angle view, high res and crop the render rather than moving the camera closer).
Same thing occurred with the Empire of Dust sculpts where the renders made it look like the spears were massive and tapered, whereas the sculpts IRL (I have some) are proportioned just fine.
Even some basic cellphone pics of an unpainted test print will look way better.
I'm looking foward to going all-in with this one, it's looking great and I hope it'll provide prototypes for vehicles which will then find their way into 28mm scale and firefight (even if just in STL form, that would still be fantastic, I want those Lancer tanks!).
I have surgery scheduled for right after the KS launches, so my "You've got this, be strong." reward to myself is to go haaaaaaaaaard on this KS.
I just want each vehicle, etc... to be less of a chore to build than Imperialis. Those are overdetailed, and occasionally excessive and as I get older I want less barriers to actually starting to play.
Yes that is my hope too. I did actually enjoy playing Legions but have got no misconceptions that it will be almost impossible to introduce to casual wargaming friends, it requires just too much of an investment of time and energy.
I'm hoping this game will fill that void with a small scale game that is easily accessible and reasonably priced. Mantic games always seem to have pretty good and friendly groups that form around them too, for events and so forth.
Watched the gameplay video. Just way way better than LI (Mantic has actually gathered the BEST of past Epic editions - except the elegant blast marker mechanics, shame), but the timing has been awful , just after LI.
Yes I do wish they did more with morale and suppression than Pinned = can't charge/overwatch and -1 to attack rolls
Very slick otherwise, now let's just hope for some exciting units and abilities, it looked a bit dry so far. Get some superheavies, some aircraft, deep strike, etc.
kodos wrote: titel is misleading, this is more of a playthrough/battle report rather than a how to play
What's cool about this video, is that it's really both. Mantic videos often feel a bit unplanned and rushed, but this one is really nice. There's a tiny bit of "how to play" at the beginning, but they both walk you through what they're doing and why on each activation, with lots of "inner voice stuff being spoken out loud" that makes this playthrough really good.
It's a shame more playthroughs aren't like this. I don't watch playthroughs for the "drama" of the game (maybe a little, but not much), I watch them so I can understand how to play and get a good sense of the game. This video was made for exactly that purpose.
Watched the full video, and as suspected based on it and the beta-rules, this game is almost exactly what I wished Legion Imperialis would have been.
I am sooooo in, and will probably throw a stupid amount of money at the KS, for large armies of each faction.
Also helps that Mantic confirmed my greatest wish which was less fiddly model assembly than LI. 10mm scale just doesn't demand WYSIWYG to the degree LI did, that results in models obnoxious to assemble. I want my Epic scale gaming amount numerous models conveying a sense of war... not individual models that hold up to 28mm scale scrutiny, but take five times longer to assemble than is sensible.
It looks like good stuff here, I do like the classic 'city on green grass' look they've gone for in their promos.
Its just a shame that they didn't actually go for actual epic/6mm scale.
I can sort of understand that this odd 10-12mm scale they are pushing is more marketable than proper 6mm scale, but I've no interest in starting over with another random scale even if small scale Sci-fantasy rat armies are my jam.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes I do wish they did more with morale and suppression than Pinned = can't charge/overwatch and -1 to attack rolls
Very slick otherwise, now let's just hope for some exciting units and abilities, it looked a bit dry so far. Get some superheavies, some aircraft, deep strike, etc.
To be fair, if the morale/fallback/withdraw rules are that easily decipherable without a doctorate in language comprehension, then it's already a step ahead of Legions.
RexHavoc wrote: It looks like good stuff here, I do like the classic 'city on green grass' look they've gone for in their promos.
Its just a shame that they didn't actually go for actual epic/6mm scale.
I can sort of understand that this odd 10-12mm scale they are pushing is more marketable than proper 6mm scale, but I've no interest in starting over with another random scale even if small scale Sci-fantasy rat armies are my jam.
Annoying that it doesn't match my 6mm terrain... I suppose, but I have stuff for Dropzone Commander which I think is 10mm. Not such an 'odd' or 'random' scale really.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes I do wish they did more with morale and suppression than Pinned = can't charge/overwatch and -1 to attack rolls
Very slick otherwise, now let's just hope for some exciting units and abilities, it looked a bit dry so far. Get some superheavies, some aircraft, deep strike, etc.
To be fair, if the morale/fallback/withdraw rules are that easily decipherable without a doctorate in language comprehension, then it's already a step ahead of Legions.
Totally. I tried to sit down to read the LI rules and needed to go get a pen an paper to work some things out.
I'm liking the look of the newer terrain in the previews, the gothic features of most of the troublemaker sprues aren't suited for the Warpath setting, only the industrial set and airfield work well, so it's good to see some new designs in there.
It's going to be difficult to not go big on this one, smaller number of launch factions makes it tempting to just go ahead and get them all.
scarletsquig wrote: I'm liking the look of the newer terrain in the previews, the gothic features of most of the troublemaker sprues aren't suited for the Warpath setting, only the industrial set and airfield work well, so it's good to see some new designs in there.
It's going to be difficult to not go big on this one, smaller number of launch factions makes it tempting to just go ahead and get them all.
I don't want to dissuade you, because God knows I am going huge on this KS, but they've already said further factions are stretch goals. I believe Veermyn and Guard?
I'd love to do everything in large numbers, but I'd rather get 3-4 huge armies versus dabbling in 6+... unless I add more in pledge manager... hmmm. :-p
Ronnie said there are to be 8 armies on the KS, 4 factions by default (Plague, FF, Asterians & Enforcer), 4 being stretch goals with 2 being confirmed to be Veer-Myn & GCPS and the other 2 are not mentioned yet, though would be Marauders and the last one could be something new
order of stretch goal factions will be popular vote
I'm hoping this is one of the ultra value-rich Mantic Kickstarters, because I love going deep and wide on armies. I know I will likely double-up on each faction as having lots of list-building options is half of the fun for my family and I, but I also know I will want several factions (if not all of them eventually).
Matt recently said the game playtested very well at 2500pts on a 6x4 table, so I suspect I will pledge for 4000pts per faction (roughly), and will ideally be able to get 3-4 factions initially.
I'd normally never second guess a Mantic value proposition, but the print-on-demand Walking Dead stuff was pretty pricey for what one gets.
I love how Mantic engages with the gaming community with this sort of thing. Really helps I think to make stuff as transparent and easily accessible as possible. I haven't gone silly on a KS for a while so might do with this one..
That is looking very slick isn't it. Minimal profiles, and you can see bits of other games in it (the loss of units following a combat will be familiar to any undead player in WHFB of the past!)
I quite liked reading the blog and about how Matt had spent some months writing the rules, and then they parachuted in Alessio Cavatore with a big pair of scissors to cut out any unnecessary crunch. That was quite plainly the editorial step that was missed with Legions, so it will be very interesting to see how this game actually compares overall.
The editing process can be really great for a game, a similar thing happened with deadzone, with the complexity, counters and clutter reduced massively from 1st to 2nd edition.
It's nice to see a game system going through that process pre-release.
Agreed. I've been waiting a very long time to really play Warpath... I had some of the first copies of the original Warpath back when it was very much KoW-in-space...
I have a copy of Firefight I need to put together still, alongside some Kings of War armies and a copy of Deadzone.
Hoping some local players show up for Epic Warpath.
Oh I think Armored Clash will blow Warpath out of the water on sculpts. Distro will be about on par with Dystopian Wars tho, so getting varied forces for 8 factions out will be a bit of a wait. It was at least 1.5 years for DW to start resembling something like its full form.
scarletsquig wrote: The editing process can be really great for a game, a similar thing happened with deadzone, with the complexity, counters and clutter reduced massively from 1st to 2nd edition.
It's nice to see a game system going through that process pre-release.
+1
"less is more"
I am eager to try those mechanics (and I will probably set some army lists for HH...).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: It's looking up to be the best of the three contemporary Epic systems.
It is only superior to Epic Armageddon in simplicity, but yeah (it still played and alive).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: Oh I think Armored Clash will blow Warpath out of the water on sculpts. Distro will be about on par with Dystopian Wars tho, so getting varied forces for 8 factions out will be a bit of a wait. It was at least 1.5 years for DW to start resembling something like its full form.
Also agreed. Miniature style is completely different and way more appealing. + the retro thing
With all of these games, it might start to feel like the 'age of Epic'. Not to mention the Warlord Games releases, they are apparently working on an ancients/Roman set and I'm really looking forward to that one.
Is the KS due to start today yes? I guess they will send around an email or something, Mantic usually seem pretty good with their comms.
Warlord Games has the problem of not really having an Epic ruleset in addition to the models but you are just using more models per base for Black Powder
and yes KS is today and we should get a message when it starts
It makes sense for this to be the "age of epic", 28mm models are ludicrously expensive for mass battle games and 6x4 tables are too big for many peoples' homes. If a Hasbro type come along with an epic scale, sci-fi type game with light rules and coloured single piece miniatures they will absolutely clean house I think
Additionally plastic tooling has come a long way, so it is now possible to get plenty of sufficiently detailed infantry and small tanks on sprues, and to have more than 1-2 sprues per army.
I know DropZone commander managed this for a few units per army (but minimal build options), but I'm confident that Mantic plans for more of this with Archon. And based on Archon's DeusLair production models, I do think they can achieve a comparable level of detail to GW if they want to.
How sad for Dropzone that it's been holding the Epic scale sci-fi torch alone for like 15 years and usually doesn't even get remembered in Epic scale topics.
Went for Captain for now in the hope that Veer-Myn get reached can always double up on Enforcers or Plague as they are the 2 sets I want. Pity there’s no 2 faction equivalent of the High Command pledge.
Need to think about the terrain and reinforcement add ons might be something for the PM.
I feel like a slacker, only being backer #173... Didn't even read the page yet, and just went in at the highest tier. This game is a damn near "Holy Grail" rules-set for me, so there is no way I was going to miss it.
Captain for me too... that they're selling extra plastic armies with 200~ models (including vehicles) for 35 GBP is amazing. Roughly double what GW is selling for LI.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fully funded in 26 mins.
Captain Pledge currently looks like a wild value, so I will admit, my "All-In" tier will be highly dependent on seeing more of the Resin Reinforcements, and Super Heavies. It's weird to think in exchange for those, you could triple your core-army boxes.
That said, seems like the armies will have nice, fleshed out lists of units right out of the gates!
I've never been tempted by 3d-printing, and know no one who does it which further diminishes the allure, but I have to say, I suspect I will already want more than one of some of those Reinforcement boxes, making stls clearly super tempting for those who can leverage them.
"Our first extra faction, due to just how many of you have requested them in the run-up to the campaign, will be the Veer-myn once we hit £250,000 in funding."
Backer number 516 - I've just gone in at the Lieutenant level for now but will see how it goes.
It does seem like excellent value. Am thinking Forge Fathers and Plague for the starter boxes but TBH my willpower will probably run out at some point..
lord_blackfang wrote: A couple of the new designs need to go back to the drawing board tho, especially the Evil Rhinoceros.
agree
while the idea of having an overtaken/mutated alien beast as super-heavy for the Plague, just having a large Rhino is a little boring
I guess the FF vehicle should be some kind of large mining laser but does not really bring that home maybe just with switching cockpit and gun around and put the cockpit on top
I'll consider pledging if and when Veer-myn come available, but 250k quid is looking like a high bar to pass based on where the campaign is currently sitting. I suppose we'll get a better picture of the likelihood of additional later today after its had some more time to marinate and get the marketing out to interested parties.
...
Is what I typed out before I actually looked at the kickstarter page and saw the insane level of value. I might just pledge captain for some enforcers and/or asterians anyway.
lord_blackfang wrote: How sad for Dropzone that it's been holding the Epic scale sci-fi torch alone for like 15 years and usually doesn't even get remembered in Epic scale topics.
Thats what happens when a game/IP is so poorly mismanaged that its own fans forget about it.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'll consider pledging if and when Veer-myn come available, but 250k quid is looking like a high bar to pass based on where the campaign is currently sitting. I suppose we'll get a better picture of the likelihood of additional later today after its had some more time to marinate and get the marketing out to interested parties.
Smells to me like the funding goal was significantly artificially deflated if 30k funds 4 factions and then they need another 220k for the fifth But oh well, crowdfunding psychology and all that. I guess it's good buzz to pretend it was "funded in one hour"
they already said that the original plan was to release a game with 2 factions and a plastic starter box
so for that they would not have needed funding
while the 250k really looks like the upfront cost needed for design and tooling to be done without needing another KS to get the money to finish the previous one
and I guess more about to get enough people interested to make it worth doing
mattl wrote:Agreed. I've been waiting a very long time to really play Warpath... I had some of the first copies of the original Warpath back when it was very much KoW-in-space...
I have a copy of Firefight I need to put together still, alongside some Kings of War armies and a copy of Deadzone.
Hoping some local players show up for Epic Warpath.
.Mikes. wrote:
mattl wrote: I had some of the first copies of the original Warpath back when it was very much KoW-in-space...
Warpath.
*cue Sarah McLachlan music*
I really enjoyed the 1st version of Warpath. It was my Go-To game for occasional Apocalypse size battles. Nice and streamlined and the 4 lists they released were enough to cover most sci-fi forces. We even adapted it for Titans.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/?s=%22warpath%22
mattl wrote:Captain for me too... that they're selling extra plastic armies with 200~ models (including vehicles) for 35 GBP is amazing. Roughly double what GW is selling for LI.
Fully funded in 26 mins.
Still waffling over the rules, but I'm certainly in for one of the Core army boxes. If nothing else, I could use a bunch of 10mm infantry and APC's and at that price it's irresistable.
mattl wrote: They're also at 85k already. I think they can get to 250k pretty easily....
And it's Mantic, I'm sure we'll get armies 5-8 through this somehow.
At 35GBP a box for a 2000 point army...
If you know kickstarter, you know that funding curves are non-linear. On average you see about 2/3rds of the total funding on the first day and the last day (and even then, "day" is generous - you're often talking about a period of a handful of hours in reality). Based on where it currently sits, 250k is actually not so easy. Its not off the table, but its far from guaranteed.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'll consider pledging if and when Veer-myn come available, but 250k quid is looking like a high bar to pass based on where the campaign is currently sitting. I suppose we'll get a better picture of the likelihood of additional later today after its had some more time to marinate and get the marketing out to interested parties.
Smells to me like the funding goal was significantly artificially deflated if 30k funds 4 factions and then they need another 220k for the fifth But oh well, crowdfunding psychology and all that. I guess it's good buzz to pretend it was "funded in one hour"
This is the way with kickstarter. Most major publishers using kickstarter intentionally set the funding total at around 1/2 to 1/5th of the actual funding total required, as a project that quickly funds will get more pledges from psychological "momentum" associated with it funding, whereas projects that fund slowly are quickly perceived as "questionable" by potential backers and they are more likely to hit "follow" than they are "pledge now". For the most part this means that they hit their desired total pretty handily, but every once in a while you'll encounter a project that is fully funded but inexplicably gets canceled by its creator - this is why. Because they hit their stated funding goal, but in actuality they need some amount $x more in order to actual raise the funds needed without a bank loan, etc.
.Mikes. wrote: Getting big Jayce and the Wheeled Warrior vibes from the FF superheavy. I reckon they might be my choice.
Evokes the silhouette of the old Squat Cyclops a bit (albeit more industrial and with the FF signature segmented sloping armour thing going on). Honestly kind of glad I held off on LI at this point as this seems like it will be easier to get my group in to with the larger faction variety and better price point.
Definitely grabbing FF's... on the fence as to whether I also want to grab Enforcers, because I am a sucker for hovertanks.
I'll hold for possible renders, or even 3d prints of the superheavies before deciding to join, or not. The STL option is my prefered to go option nowadays to avoid shipping, and customs fees.
Andy from Mantic is on the latest Counter Charge Podcast and towards the latter half they talk quite a bit about the Epic Warpath Kickstarter campaign. It is certainly worth a listen, especially for the more cynically minded.
I'm also currently looking at Enforcer and Forge Fathers Core and Expansion plus the Enforcer and Asterian superheavy. A 2/2/2 bundle would be just right.
Maybe the terrain too, I do like the angled pieces troublemaker studios did.
Looking forward to seeing the veer-myn, I'm optimistic we'll get there. I hope they've got some renders and stuff to show off or it'll be a bit of a damp squib though.
so about 1000 backers and 50% of the stretchgoal in the first 24 hours
the Mantic KS are somewhere around 1-1,5k at on the lower end, and if predictions of getting the same cash in the first and last days it looks to be achievable
A big stumbling block for them achieving the veer-myn stretch goal will be the apparent lack of things to milk existing backers for as add-ons. Theres no stretch goals between funding and the 250k veer-myn expansion, everything that an existing backer would want to pledge for is available on day 1. That means theres no incentive for existing backers to increase their pledge as the campaign progresses and extend their level of investment, which is how most campaigns actually achieve growth - by using stretch goals to unlock add-ons that drive more growth to unlock further stretch goals.
Yeah sure, they have their day x previews for the reinforcement boxes, but for the most part you can tell what they are from the silhouettes, even as someone that has minimal interest and knowledge of warpath it didn't take much for me to figure out whats what for ~80% of the hidden previews. Thats not going to be a significant driver of pledge growth.
They could easily have held back a few bits as stretch goals, i.e. we hit 60k so wow, now your grav-tanks get turrets! 3 in every set! But tbh I think people are wise to that crap now
I've tried to pitch a few obvious vanity add-ons, such as Acrylic Order Tokens, etc... which would go a nice way towards bumping funding. That said, there is something refreshing about an actual, truthful campaign without fake value coming from largely preordained stretch-goals.
I just wish this had a viral breakout level of success, as one of those $3million+ Kickstarters would really speak to a good sized playerbase on Day One. As it stands, I will legit have to paint up my four armies and get straight to running demos. :-p
And man... stls are calling me. I already know I will want 2x Reinforcements per army. For example, we now know you get two "units" of Walkers, in an Enforcer Reinforcement box. If I love a unit and want to run 4x, that's already a second box right there...
I just wish this had a viral breakout level of success, as one of those $3million+ Kickstarters would really speak to a good sized playerbase on Day One. As it stands, I will legit have to paint up my four armies and get straight to running demos. :-p
To be fair, I have always had to do this for anything that isn't 40k Such is the fate for all of us that have tasted fine wargames, and then know the frustration of people not knowing about them
On the other point, I think they did say they wanted this to be a 'genuine' KS or the type the format was intended for, rather than one with fake stretch goals and "OMG look what we found down the back of the sofa, which we had in no way planned before!" And then they wheel out a stunning studio of an Angel Giraldez-painted mini and photos of the box.
Has there been any discussion of how many boxes worth of stuff is needed for a "standard" game size? I'm assuming that the intent isn't that you buy one box and you're basically done unless you want to run the extra special reinforcements or super heavy?
not sure of any kind of fake goals would help
I mean there is already some negativity out there why such a big company like Mantic goes to KS at all instead of doing a regular pre-order and there having fake goals just for the sake of having goals would make it worse
yet they could have used the add-ons as daily reveal to get people back increasing their pledge
but this would also not help to get more people in
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: Has there been any discussion of how many boxes worth of stuff is needed for a "standard" game size? I'm assuming that the intent isn't that you buy one box and you're basically done unless you want to run the extra special reinforcements or super heavy?
from the KS comments from the staff it is exactly that
a plastic core army makes a 2k army with the playtested size being 2k-2,5k, the reinforcements add another 500 points but aiming to add some variation rather than just increasing the points and super heavy points are not fixed yet
also the plastic tanks come with options for turrets and can be either APCs or battle tanks which I guess will affect the point cost
army box+reinforcement+super heavy and you are done (like with any other mantic game), except you want more from certain things that are in the other boxes of course (like we don't know yet if 2 super heavies are a thing)
from the KS comments there will be a single sprue per faction
so going into the same problem as GW that if you want more of the 1 unit in the core box, you need to buy that box again
but than those are not exclusive to the 2 player starter set and the price is low enough to buy 2 anyway
I mean, honestly, does anyone really play with unpainted models anyway???
Just grey plastic
Mantic GamesCreator
1 day ago
We've no plans to use coloured plastics (just trusty old grey) however if you wanted something quick you can always just take a spray can to them to quickly colour them.
The one sprue per army approach is similar to the original approach taken by GW for epic and works brilliantly, minimal investment needed to get the bulk of an army made in hard plastic and then specialists can round it out in resin, metal (or the more modern option of STL) from there.
One of the really unique things with this is the offering of "pick resin or STL" for identical pricing, I'm actually struggling to choose between the two, especially as someone already perma-subscribed to the mantic vault.
Might just get a couple of physical reinforcement packs + superheavies for the armies I want to play the most and take it from there. (so far asterian and enforcer superheavies are looking great)
The terrain is really nice, could be used to make travel deadzone with some magnetic paint.
One thing that is easy to miss and is really great for deadzone/ firefight players too is the custom faction d8s, tempted to get all the variants.
If I'm remembering correctly, there are 3 more factions as well as Veer-Myn on the drawing board and they will be subject to backer poll for which order they will be unlocked/produced. It's fair to assume two of these will be GCPS and Marauders, right?! I hope so anyways!
It is said that there are 8 armies playtestest and most likely all 8 are in the book
Matt stated that doing Plague VS Enforcers was done because those 2 are kind of poster boys for the setting and were also the forces from the first Deadzone Edition (as kind of easter egg)
And instead of having another human force they wanted as many Aliens as possible first for more variation, hence the initial 4 armies are all from different realms
So depending if we see Veer-Myn unlocked or not, the remaining 3 factions will be added as Stretchgoals as well
One of the really unique things with this is the offering of "pick resin or STL" for identical pricing, I'm actually struggling to choose between the two, especially as someone already perma-subscribed to the mantic vault.
Might just get a couple of physical reinforcement packs + superheavies for the armies I want to play the most and take it from there. (so far asterian and enforcer superheavies are looking great)
For me the decision was taken away as I got a call from a friend of a nearby club who saw my name in the comments saying that they are already 4 people backing and that each of us should take a different STL add-on so we can print all of them
They seem to be planning for £400k based on similar tracking to DS Origins per the comments so that should see 8 armies unlocked it appears that each army costs around £50k to produce based on 5 armies at £250k.
For me the decision was taken away as I got a call from a friend of a nearby club who saw my name in the comments saying that they are already 4 people backing and that each of us should take a different STL add-on so we can print all of them
Today's KS update has a pretty cool written battle report. As an old skool player with a short attention span (videos typically put me to sleep...), I really appreciated this
in the comments to the battle report, Matt clarified the Army Organisation
A company is 0-1 command, 2-4 troops, 0-4 specialist and 0-4 support. Some things unlock others, so you can't have all four support until you had all eight troops and specialists.
so 2 not fully filled companies being 2k points with the option to play more command+troops or more support by taking more or less companies
I don't really get the point of doing a daily reveal of existing products run through a filter and suggesting its something new when it isn't..
Its like when they original forge fathers and space orks were put on pre-order using sketches, and I ask if they were reusing there fantasy sculpts, and they said no...
Like why do they need to keep pulling daft stuff like this.
DaveC wrote: They seem to be planning for £400k based on similar tracking to DS Origins per the comments so that should see 8 armies unlocked it appears that each army costs around £50k to produce based on 5 armies at £250k.
Yeah, realistically that first £200k is the tooling for the first 4 armies.
£250k makes sense to add a fifth, and we'll see what happens from there.
It might simply be left at £400k for GCPS so they don't overstretch themselves, but there's probably a lot more to be made by £50k per faction stretch goals since each one that's added is the potential for backers to add another £35-100 to their total. Kitchen sink approach works, and adding another pledge level at £275 for all 8 factions would probably get a lot of upwards pledge conversion.
The slow middle is a tricky one though and there's every possibility that we don't get to £250k until the campaign is almost over, which then makes the extra add-on a rush, kickstarters are heavily condensed towards the start and end nowadays, I make campaigns myself and you need ideally a "rabbit out of the hat" add-on or new pledge moment in the middle to smooth it over if the campaign is longer than a week, or you start losing too many backers in the dead zone.
Excited to hear that Marauders might get done. I'd love to see a proper army of them.
Not enthused by the designs for the mega-units so far though - I think the plague super heavy would be better as a Resident Evil style mega-monster rather than a sort of scabby squiggoth.
Yeah, this is a very.. low excitement Kickstarter project. There are no stretch goals so you show up, put down your pledge for one or two armies and you come back in 2 weeks. There is no point in pledging for anything now that you could add in the pledge manager later because there are no funding goals that benefit the backer (unless you really, really want rats).
So right now, I've no doubt we will hit 250K at some point, but probably no more than about 320K by the time we cross the finish line. So unless the new factions are every 50K or so, what you see now on the KS front page is all there is. See you all in two weeks, I guess lol
Siygess wrote: (trimmed)
so, what you see now on the KS front page is all there is. See you all in two weeks, I guess lol
Isn't it what we're after? We provide the funding to ensure the toys we want can get produced?
Personally, I prefer my KS like this. I dislike the old KS type trying to scrounge an extra chunk every few days so I can remain 'all in'.
We're having a large 40k event this weekend so i was able to talk to a lot of locals, there is a healthy level of interest for Warpath, even from people who bought into LI, but they say after LI they can't stomach the thought of painting another Epic scale infantryman in their lives
Gomezaddams wrote: I don't really get the point of doing a daily reveal of existing products run through a filter and suggesting its something new when it isn't..
Its like when they original forge fathers and space orks were put on pre-order using sketches, and I ask if they were reusing there fantasy sculpts, and they said no...
Like why do they need to keep pulling daft stuff like this.
If I remember right their last kickstarter to have actual goals was for Vanguard. They'd paired down the base pledges to create a bunch of artificial stretch goals which were supposed to look like them 'adding value, but they'd cut the base back so much that people questioned why they were charging so much for a paltry handful of miniatures and a rulebook. The initial slump really hurt the campaign and they definitely lost pledgers over how stingy the initial offering was and how slowly any value was being added.
Since then they've not had stretch goals but instead had daily reveals, I guess so they still have something to show and talk about during the campaign. I'm with you though, since it's all time based there's very little point to it, it'd be better to just show it all at the start so everyone knows what they're pledging for.
I don't mind supporting Mantic with this despite it really being a labor of love and the pledges going towards securing another interesting army.
I just pledged. I like the clean, beer & pretzel rules and that the minis will not be hard to obtain. I also enjoy Mantic's approach to terrain and line of sight.
It's also a fairly short campaign, 11 days left at time of writing. So not much further to kick the can down the road/hold people's interests.
I'm actually quite enjoying the daily reveals as I'm not a Warpath player and know next to nothing about the background and haven't seen a lot of the design concepts before.
I just pledged. I like the clean, beer & pretzel rules and that the minis will not be hard to obtain. I also enjoy Mantic's approach to terrain and line of sight.
Yeah smooth clean rulesets are always a draw and Mantic are very good for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: It's also a fairly short campaign, 11 days left at time of writing. So not much further to kick the can down the road/hold people's interests.
I'm actually quite enjoying the daily reveals as I'm not a Warpath player and know next to nothing about the background and haven't seen a lot of the design concepts before.
It’s definitely something that I think holds some people ack. Not having the draw of lore that 40K has.
On the campaign itself. I think the usual 48 push at the end is the only point we will see large movement (120-140k based on the start of the campaign and normal trends).
I do think we will hit more factions though.
I’m definitely gonna grab two core armies. Maybe nothing more. Maybe a third core instead of big amounts on just resin. Unsure yet..
I'm probably going to just get one or two factions for now, simply because it will be all I can paint for a while, and I'd like to support the FLGS if a few people start collecting it and playing later on.
Veer Myn down to £175k
then GCPS £225k
Marauders £275k
Nameless £325k
Keeping the £50k stretches just lowering the starting point
Spoiler:
Also retail prices
Sergeant (1 faction plus rules/tokens/dcie) £100 KS £59
Lieutenant (2 factions) £160 KS £89
Captain (4 factions) £280 KS £149
High Command £840 KS £475
KS prices are about 55% to 60% of retail depending on the pledge.
While they haven't priced out the add ons an extra plastic core would be about £60 MSRP, super heavies £25 and the terrain £50. Reinforcements would be £75 if packaged the same as the KS but they might not be
I am VERY hyped for Nameless but also not holding out too much hope, although maybe the rats, humies and orcs players will catapult us up there
I also really appreciate using the KS site to do add-ons, makes it loads easier / more satisfying than doing math and adding on funds for the eventual pledge manager.
Holy Crap, I've been waffling a bit the last few days as my club has had zero interest in buying-in, but if GPCS comes up I will be a shoe-in for sure. I'd have a hard time saying no to Marauder's and Forge Fathers as well.
They also appear to have combined the STLs into one set for £45 so the super heavies are effectively free
STL Faction Pack
£45
Get both the reinforcement pack and super-heavy unit for a faction as STL files, allowing you to print as many as you need. Faction selection will be made in the Pledge Manager after the Campaign.
Shrapnelsmile wrote: sorry for the obvious question but I'm going crazy trying to find the scale for this game. Did mantic go 10mm or 15mm?
It's a very good question. As Mantic and others have said , it's a 10mm game, but they really should be more clear in the KS about it. Personally I think it's a bit shady to call it "epic scale" in the KS tagline, when a huge number of gamers will assume that means the 6-8mm scale of Game's Workshop's "Epic" family of games. 8 to 10mm might not sound like much, but it's a MASSIVE difference in scale when the miniatures are compared.
"...our Enforcer Operative models are about 12mm to the top of the head, so about 11m to the eye. A ‘normal’ human would be about 10mm to the eye. So while there is some variation, EPIC WARPATH can be treated as being 10-12mm scale for purposes of modelling and terrain."
Additionally , I assume most folks know this, but 10mm is 1/160 Scale, which is also "N Scale" for model railroading which opens up alot of options for structure kits. It also has lots of potential combinations with 1/144 (11mm) scale which can be useful as 1/144 scale is fairly common in plastic model kits.
The lack of Marauders makes me sad but is understandable that they don't have every army at launch.
Have their been any reasonable pictures of the Terrain they are selling? Can't really tell if some of the bunkers in the pics/vids are ones they worked up for the KS or if they are the sets being sold.
well, Warlord Games have an Epic Battle line with 15mm models, so the name is already used for anything between 6 and 15mm models
one reason why they are a little vague is that the final model size is not know yet because it can change a little bit with tooling
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahtman wrote: The lack of Marauders makes me sad but is understandable that they don't have every army at launch.
Have their been any reasonable pictures of the Terrain they are selling? Can't really tell if some of the bunkers in the pics/vids are ones they worked up for the KS or if they are the sets being sold.
Marauders are a stretch goal, so maybe
the bunkers we see are new ones and "tests" with new design and existing 10mm models, there should be a video coming the next days with more details about the terrain
kodos wrote: well, Warlord Games have an Epic Battle line with 15mm models, so the name is already used for anything between 6 and 15mm models
Technically they're 13.5mm.
At this point if a company says their models are "Epic" scale, I'm going to assume it to means "a proprietary scale that prevents you from using them easily with other manufacturers' ranges".
not all of them, the ACW and Wasterloo are, the ECW are 15mm
and given the size difference we had before when a company called it "10mm" it is not really different to any model range outside of GW who don't even mention a scale any more and are not even compatible with their own ranges if people would take it serious
(somehow of another manufacturer is 2 mm off, it is a problem, if GW is more off for the models of the same faction from the same release, it is an advantage and representation of the fluff)
anything from previous 10mm ranges, 1/144 or N Scale will fit to a point even if it is slightly off
Nice to see the army unlocks come down a bit (and the rest of them revealed). If they can get Marauders in, then I can probably drag another person from my regular gaming group in.
Ahtman wrote: The lack of Marauders makes me sad but is understandable that they don't have every army at launch.
Have their been any reasonable pictures of the Terrain they are selling? Can't really tell if some of the bunkers in the pics/vids are ones they worked up for the KS or if they are the sets being sold.
Most of the terrain is from troublemaker games, vanguard miniatures already sell the sets. Its the same sets as the 6mm stuff made by TMG for epic.
Gak like that is dishonest and frankly insulting to our intelligence.
Anyway, Mantic has my attention as factions have expanded.
