Veer-Myn are unlocked now, so we should see some more details for them and at least I know 1 army I take for sure
what I don't know yet is if I should go for the large terrain set or not
the single set should be enough combined with everything I already own, yet the XL set is not just multiple of the small ones but also lists other parts like streets and I don't own any plastic streets sets for now (and 10mm scaled roads would work for Battletech as well)
I really want to back this but I'm struggling with the value proposition to be honest. Lieutenant pledge (which is as good as a "two player starter set" proxyt that they have and what I'd go for) is about 220AUD delivered on current exchange rates. I know it's a lot of stuff for the price, and better value than LI. I know that the core armies are basically enough for a full army. What I'm struggling is the internal value balance with other Mantic products. I could get a Deadzone or Firefight starter set for about 150AUD delivered from an Australian retailer. The retail price they're listing (160GBP) converts to about the same as the LI starter set here. Again, I know that there's more stuff than in LI and I have no doubt the game itself will be better... I just kind of expect more of a differential compared to a GW product from Mantic. Going back to the Firefight example, from the same retailer the Firefight starter sets are over 100AUD cheaper than the 40k Ultimate Starter Set (140 to 255).
If nothing else, this Kickstarter has me wanting to try out Firefight though because that is incredible value. Would love to be convinced I'm wrong by you folks.
£60 army sets
£30 rulebook + counters pack
£10 dice
If they do a 2-player starter set at retail it probably won't be full armies but around 800-1000 points per faction, same as the KoW and firefight starters at a similar price point to the lieutenant pledge.
Backing the KS gets you double the minis, that's basically the offering.
Deadzone and firefight are both awesome though, I'd recommend them both and play one or the other every week.
Good jump in the total yesterday and the addition of MSRPs to the campaign pledge is a good change - more likely to get a healthier late campaign push now I think but still not going to reach dizzying heights.
It looks like it has now reached the Veer-myn level? A nice bump in the overall total, although the total number of backers has not gone up massively.
Quite interesting that there were a massive number of people 'following' the KS (I think about 6000+) but only about 1300 have translated into actual backers. Mantic need to find some way of getting to those other 4500 or so!
witchhammer92 wrote: If nothing else, this Kickstarter has me wanting to try out Firefight though because that is incredible value. Would love to be convinced I'm wrong by you folks.
Comparing it first to KoW because there I have the most experience with boxes to list and depending on the faction and list you need a single Mega Army up to Mega Army+Army, so 150-250€, for a 2000 points lists (if you use Mantic models only), while with a 2 player starter you need 2 as the set has the equivalent of an Army Set per faction
For Firefight it is similar though the Army Set combined with a Deadzone Set or single boxes gets you the 1000-1250 points and you add in the vehicles, were the 2 player set gets you more infantry but missing the vehicles compared to the army sets, and again we look at 150-250€ for 2k
Army Sets are 75GPB, Mega Army Set 115 GBP
Comparing this to Warpath KS, the MSRP given for the Pledges is the combined value of the single items, not the selling price of the "pledges or what the box sets might be
Like a Sergeant Pledge with Core Army + Rules + Dice is 65 combined, the Pledge discount is 59 while MSRP is listed as 100 GBP
the FF Rules are 30 and Dice 10, so we can estimate the Army Set at 60GBP MSRP which would than be cheaper than FireFight or Kings of War
Given that the specialist models are not in the core sets and resin being more expensive those might be 75, the Titans 25 and the combined value is 160 which would translate to 200€ and the full army therefore being in a similar range as KoW and FF.
that said, I expect that there will be a dedicated 2 player set on release around 100€ that has 3 frames per faction instead of the 6
as this would match the Promo Pics we have seen of the Armies for now which had the models from half a core army set
Like those are the pics going around in several articles with Plague and Enforcers and both are 1/2 core army box, so I guess this will be the content of the actual 2 player set:
Spoiler:
Combaring this to Legion Imperialis is difficult as the boxes are different with the 2 player set having Titans that increase the value but are less useful for buying it more often while the actual content of the EWP 2 player set is pure speculation from me
but we have a Core Army Set that will be ~75€ and a Reinforcment Box at ~90€, both combined for ~165€ give 2500 points or 2000 with options with the full game being tested at 2k-2,5k
Taking the LI sets, each one is 40€ and a single Infantry Box + Tank Company Box sets you for the same 80€ but only has ~500 points with the full game being said to be 3k points (yet people already set for 1500 points as otherwise the tables are too crowded)
but because GW games work best by going with a 2 player set, we add half of one for 77€ as core which gives us 942 points + Titan for 160€, which is either 1/2 of the suggested size
same price but one games gives more models than you need to play the full game so you have options and can make different lists, while the other games has not enough models and no options for variations either
VAYASEN wrote: I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.
Just dont capture my imagination at all.
as this is a classic Kickstarter, non of those designs are final and you can still make suggestions or call for something different
not like the design of the Enforcer tanks was already changed a little bit and suggestions for the Plague artillery take
one problem of the tank design currently is that Mantic aims for the lowest amount of parts possible for a better gaming experience (instead of letting people build scale models) and they want a certain number of them per sprue and don't know how much space will be available until after the tooling started
currently the test models are slightly smaller and out of scale to be save and will be adapted of more spure space is available
another point is that tanks are without bases as by player request they have written the rules so that tanks don't need them (unlike in the very first draft) and the antigrav tanks look odd without
what I don't know yet is if I should go for the large terrain set or not
the single set should be enough combined with everything I already own, yet the XL set is not just multiple of the small ones but also lists other parts like streets and I don't own any plastic streets sets for now (and 10mm scaled roads would work for Battletech as well)
Building roads out of 50mm tiles sounds like pure pain to me.
it was mentioned that the small terrain set would be enough for 4x4 yet the XL Set doubles the regular one and adds Roadway, Tower and Industrial frames for a 100
as it looks to be completely modular this would be a good option for LI players as well
VAYASEN wrote: I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.
Just dont capture my imagination at all.
Agreed. It seem like the same that happens with Vanguard miniatures and Defeat in Detalis. Awful vehicle designs but good infantry.
Until Marauders are revealed, I'm not interested. On top of that I am not waiting a year.
GW fans? I suppose it's hard to get over the fact that in a world with guns so powerful they can melt a tank but medieval armoured knights run around with chainswords and the whole of humanity is entrenched in a pseudo gothic catholic religion protected by world war one tanks, that other styles of sci-fi can exist. Also, many GW fans will also be waiting that one year just for their next codex so they can play their army in the latest edition with the latest rules, only for them to be out of date in less than a year.
Me? I'll enjoy Warpath when it comes out, except for naff eyesight and the inability to paint 28mm, never mind 10mm.
VAYASEN wrote: I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.
Just dont capture my imagination at all.
Agreed. It seem like the same that happens with Vanguard miniatures and Defeat in Detalis. Awful vehicle designs but good infantry.
Until Marauders are revealed, I'm not interested. On top of that I am not waiting a year.
GW fans? I suppose it's hard to get over the fact that in a world with guns so powerful they can melt a tank but medieval armoured knights run around with chainswords and the whole of humanity is entrenched in a pseudo gothic catholic religion protected by world war one tanks, that other styles of sci-fi can exist. Also, many GW fans will also be waiting that one year just for their next codex so they can play their army in the latest edition with the latest rules, only for them to be out of date in less than a year.
Me? I'll enjoy Warpath when it comes out, except for naff eyesight and the inability to paint 28mm, never mind 10mm.
I like a lot of different wargames, played a lot of SW legion and others and yes, 40k and also bought into LI. I am a wargame fan and love epic scale....im not trying to defend GW or anything, just my honest opinion, having looked at Warpath(being interested in epic scale games) I personally thought the vehicles looked crud.
Shrapnelsmile wrote: sorry for the obvious question but I'm going crazy trying to find the scale for this game. Did mantic go 10mm or 15mm?
It's a very good question. As Mantic and others have said , it's a 10mm game, but they really should be more clear in the KS about it. Personally I think it's a bit shady to call it "epic scale" in the KS tagline, when a huge number of gamers will assume that means the 6-8mm scale of Game's Workshop's "Epic" family of games. 8 to 10mm might not sound like much, but it's a MASSIVE difference in scale when the miniatures are compared.
"...our Enforcer Operative models are about 12mm to the top of the head, so about 11m to the eye. A ‘normal’ human would be about 10mm to the eye. So while there is some variation, EPIC WARPATH can be treated as being 10-12mm scale for purposes of modelling and terrain."
Additionally , I assume most folks know this, but 10mm is 1/160 Scale, which is also "N Scale" for model railroading which opens up alot of options for structure kits. It also has lots of potential combinations with 1/144 (11mm) scale which can be useful as 1/144 scale is fairly common in plastic model kits.
The reason they aren't "being more clear" is because its not a 10mm game, the infantry are 10mm but the vehicles are at a smaller scale to fit on the sprues - they were actually pretty clear on that point. They hope that they can scale up the vehicles once they go towards final production but it doesn't sound like they have any intention of actually getting them to match the infantry scale, only to get the scale closer.
chaos0xomega wrote: I dont know what those Nameless are, but I think I want them?
They're a little after my time and the recent releases are more like, Cthulhu Crabs or something, but I think early concepts were colonies of aquatic worms assembled into bipedal forms. They're fairly alien in mindset but not as much as the bug people (Z'zor)
VAYASEN wrote: I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.
Just dont capture my imagination at all.
There's a lot not to love about Mantic's sculpts. Personally I loathe the little ears on the robot elves, it makes them look way too campy. I don't mind the GCPS vehicles though, aside from the avataresque walker.
That said I'm in for the Dwarves, and possibly either the Rats or the Orcs (if they get unlocked) or maybe the Nameless (if THEY get unlocked).
GW fans? I suppose it's hard to get over the fact that in a world with guns so powerful they can melt a tank but medieval armoured knights run around with chainswords and the whole of humanity is entrenched in a pseudo gothic catholic religion protected by world war one tanks, that other styles of sci-fi can exist.
There's a difference between "other styles of sci-fi" and terrible designs. Take the Enforcers tanks for instance, I'm not sure what alterations they've made but they still look terrible. The core problem with them, at least for me, is that you have the main body of the tank then a tiny turret that sticks up to almost double the height of the base on a spindly little pole at the back which has two underwhelming little guns on it. It looks top-heavy and kind of ridiculous. This poor design extends to a lot of other elements in all the armies. If you want to compare it to "other styles of sci-fi" I think it shows the difference it makes when you have a genuinely talented group of artists with a real vision behind the artwork and designs of your universe, vs whatever Mantic has. I'm loathe to blame the artists behind the design of the sculpts, however, because with the vast number of bad, cartoonish designs across so many of their products and ranges this has to be coming from someone in management who can't let go of a particular style choice.
When the most consistent form of feedback from your potential customers is that your sculpts look bad then you really need to go back to the drawing board and re-assess your entire process. I'm sure there are more people like me who really want to love Mantics products but are put off by the terrible and cartoonish sculpts and artwork. The fluff and the imagery are really the only thing that have kept me away from buying in to things like Firefight and Vanguard.
Honestly guys, kill your darlings, your products will be better for it.
Couldn't agree more about those Enforcer tanks. So tiny, topheavy and ridiculous looking. Lower them, widen them, and give them sleek, aggressive looking weapons - not some fragile weird cowlick thing atop a pyramid. Just take a look at the Victor MkIII tank in the Enforcer reinforcement pack. Already that's a giant improvement (please don't make it tiny Mantic!)
I remain impressed at the wrong direction Mantic still continues to sometimes take in the art and modeling direction...!
But the game looks fun, and I've jumped in for four armies. I've already upped my pledge amount (doin' my part, boys! let's go!) to cover reinforcement boxes and probably terrain too.
I know some complain at this, but I really think they missed the boat not adding some kickstarter exclusive stuff to get folks more excited about pledging. Not exclusive models or things - but like some kickstarter dice (that aren't those boring white dice, enough of those already!) or some upgraded acrylic tokens (hopefully not like the ones that were offered for Firefight which were cheap and crummy). Kickstarter psychology is real man, take advantage of our weak, human foibles!
I'm glad they've listed the suggested retail prices to get folks more excited about "saving money" with this, but I sure wish they were able to add more value to the KS.
And yea... All the superheavies are leaving me cold. None of those for me, thanks.
The reason they aren't "being more clear" is because its not a 10mm game, the infantry are 10mm but the vehicles are at a smaller scale to fit on the sprues.
That's a weird and disappointing choice.
I actually really like the designs for the Enforcer vehicles, and the lack of bases on the vehicles can be fixed easily enough (as at this scale having the vehicles unbased looks even more out of kilter than it does at 28mm, due to the proportionately thicker bases)... but having the vehicles in a different scale to the infantry makes it much less interesting.
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Pacific wrote: Quite interesting that there were a massive number of people 'following' the KS (I think about 6000+) but only about 1300 have translated into actual backers. Mantic need to find some way of getting to those other 4500 or so!
I suspect a number of those will be waiting on specific faction unlocks.
Others will have been following just to see how the project shakes out and not excited enough about what's offered to jump in. They're unlikely to translate many of those follows into pledges without a considerable value add.
I personally didn't see that it wasn't releasing until 2025. That, combined with the fairly meh vehicles and finding out they aren't in scale to each other has pretty much turned me off this. I MIGHT consider the vermyn as a unique force once they show us some of the sculpts. I wanted to fall in love with the FF but the super heavy looks daf and so do the tanks with their huge flat faced triangle guns.
I want to want this. Not sure it'll happen for me though as it isn't THAT cheap. If I want to print my own reinforcements/super heavies and settle for a single core box per force for 2 forces I'm looking at $225ish pre-shipping. I'd have to have 2 armies cause likely no one is plaything this around me without me getting it going. That's rough when I'm likely to see the same value/size from Warcradle's Armored Clash here in the next couple of months. And more likely to find opponents.
Hulksmash wrote: I personally didn't see that it wasn't releasing until 2025.
Well, I'd like to point out that it's already 2024 right now, as hard as that is to accept
By March 2025 Armoured Clash will have the same number of factions out and possibly fewer units per faction as Epic Warpath, they'll just start trickling out sooner.
Of course, AC will have a clear, unified art direction and top tier sculpting. Certainly no Evil Rhinoceroses for their superheavies.
all of those problems have easy solutions, the very same ones that LI or NetEpic has, if you don't like the design of certain models and/or want to have them bigger/smaller, you print your own or buy ones that you like
never heard anyone saying that they won't play a GW game because they don't like the tank design from 1 faction or because the models are not in scale to each other, but when people don't like models they replace it instead of playing something else (would have been interesting of everyone who did not liked the Taurox would have stopped playing 40k, or people would not go back to TOW because the different units from a single faction are all of a different scale)
technically GW games do not have scale at all but are a mix of everything from 1/56 up to 1/35 with no specific design line except bigger is better and the main difference between them is one company being honest and open about it while the other does not mention the scale at all
so it is a little difficult for me when people have no problem doing some extra work or replace models on a high priced premium product that has the models as they main selling point, but on a product focused on gaming replacing the models is a problem
Zethnar wrote: I'm loathe to blame the artists behind the design of the sculpts, however, because with the vast number of bad, cartoonish designs across so many of their products and ranges this has to be coming from someone in management who can't let go of a particular style choice
given how large Mantic is, good chance you are talking about 1-2 people for the management here and one of them being Ronnie
for artists, Mantic hires freelancers for this and might be that the person who made the original concept and the one who needed to sculpt this for 10mm are not the same
for the overall design I see your points but don't agree to all of them (yes, the hull could be a little wider and less high but it also meant to be an APC hull which than would look off if it is lower) as like the tank design in general with a very narrow hull and a top heavy turret is something not unusual for modern concepts or scifi, specially in concepts featuring no classic recoil based guns but gun/missile pods without a manned turret on a universal hull
other point being the scale as there is a limit for the size to get the necessary stability so the guns need to be more bulky than they should be
taking this pic: https://www.manticgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/epic-warpath-vehicle-preview-1.webp the artillery should be longer, like at least another wheel added and the gun smaller, while the Enforcer tank could be a little wider in the back (but in general looks fine to me) yet I don't know if the design is adjusted for sprue space or not and for me they don't look that bad that I would take less models for a larger hull
I want to want this. Not sure it'll happen for me though as it isn't THAT cheap. If I want to print my own reinforcements/super heavies and settle for a single core box per force for 2 forces I'm looking at $225ish pre-shipping. I'd have to have 2 armies cause likely no one is plaything this around me without me getting it going. That's rough when I'm likely to see the same value/size from Warcradle's Armored Clash here in the next couple of months. And more likely to find opponents.
I think your best option would be 2 STL packs and/or the rules, than you can print what you need and/or use the rules with models you like and I think the biggest selling point here are the rules and with 8 distinct factions that can go for everything
PS: and for Armoured Clash I hoped that it would be the same scale as Dystopian Wars like with Spartan to have one large combined game for sea, air and land but being 10mm I am less excited for it
but I also don't like most of the new things either despite being a fan of WWE and the old Spartan ships, the new ones is not really doing it for me (maybe one of the AC factions will do it but depends on when they non "common" ones come out)
kodos wrote: all of those problems have easy solutions, the very same ones that LI or NetEpic has, if you don't like the design of certain models and/or want to have them bigger/smaller, you print your own or buy ones that you like
If I'm buying plastic starter sets for a new game, the last thing I'm interested in doing is printing new versions of the models. I'm even less interested in messing about trying to print models at this scale. The entire attraction of this game for me is the plastic models.
Edit - The printing option is also irrelevant in this case, since the core armies aren't available as STLs, only the add-ons and super-heavies.
never heard anyone saying that they won't play a GW game because they don't like the tank design from 1 faction or because the models are not in scale to each other, but when people don't like models they replace it instead of playing something else (would have been interesting of everyone who did not liked the Taurox would have stopped playing 40k, or people would not go back to TOW because the different units from a single faction are all of a different scale)
There's degrees there. Sure, not liking one model might not be a deterrent in a large miniature range. Not liking a new model released for an army you already have would also generally not put you off playing that army. But the more of the range someone dislikes, the less likely they are going to be to buy into it from scratch... and if people are seeing enough of the models in this range that they think are sub-par, that's going to be a red-flag for the chances of the game taking off, which also makes it less appealing to buy into. A new game is not judged through the same lens as a game people are already playing.
Personally, I like the designs, but would prefer the vehicles to be in scale with the infantry, and it's making me think hard about whether I like the vehicles enough to overlook that.
Yeah, I also would like to see the vehicles to be in scale, as I in general like my models to be in scale within an army (a reason why I have problems with the GW designs)
But here I can live with the answer that they want to have a certain number per box (as enough models to play) and therefore they might be smaller (as not fixed yet, maybe being the size they have shown them but possible be larger with the actual models)
Yet this like opposite reply which I got from the LI communities when mentioned that the infantry looks bad or me don't liking it
"who cares about the new released plastic models when you can print them for cheap", keep the vehicles and just buy a 3D printer for the infantry being the first suggestion, as I don't have a resin printer
Same as "no one will see the difference in scale of models on the table" when talking about GW but somehow for every other game this is a problem
Not necessary Mantic here, recently got the same for TOW when suggesting to use Perry mixed with Victrix that those 2 lines are impossible to combine because of the different "scale" but that the Bretonnia Foot Knights being larger than the other models is super historical accurate for a medieval army
Same as less details and easy to build being a huge advantage for mass battle if GW is doing it, but lack of quality and bad design for everyone else doing mass battle games
I am just a little bit annoyed about those things in general at the moment (so sorry if I am overreacting here)
Kodos I will say I have heard *a lot* of people say they won't buy into Legions because of the lack of Xenos factions, which is kind of the same thing. I guess something takes your fancy or it doesn't, so much of the appeal of wargaming is the aesthetics of a game.
As for the scaling issues of vehicles, I assume no-one saying that ever played the first few editions of Epic - the scaling of the vehicles (particularly rhinos and battle wagons) was much more out of sync than what we have seen here so far, although we all still loved it!
I'm liking what I see as well and I'm in for the 4 armies. The only thing I'm annoyed about is my favourite Mantic model, the Strider. It's going to be in plastic on the plague sprue, but the Enforcers are going to end up with a resin one.
As for the comments. The scale isn't that far out. No more than a Rhino fitting Space Marines in. The irritating thing is that it's something the GW cultists and Mantic haters will use forever as a reason that Warpath is 'crap'.
I'm going to stick with 2 armies because I'll never paint 4 but might stump up for some resin reinforcements (much as I hate working with resin) depending on how it's looking on the last day of the campaign...
That thing about doing both resin and plastic striders is a bit nuts, surely they haven't thought that through properly?
at least from the comments it was the decision on what goes into the core and they decided to add Jetbikes for Enforcers instead of having the Strider in both
Yes, I'd say that they are driven by force composition rather than trying to maximise diversity per sprue, and are so focusing on the core distinctive units you'll need loads of for each force. This will probably result in more distinctive forces, even if the painter in me just wants a small amount of everything!
Yknow it seems like it was an odd choice to rush the veermyn stretch goal/lower the funding target for it when they seem to have absolutely nothing to show on it. Like, great - we unlocked Veermyn, but what is it that I can spend my money on? How many death wheels or whatever do I get in the base box? What comes in the reinforcement box vs the army box? Its hard for me to be excited to pledge for something when its a complete unknown.
pancakeonions wrote: I know some complain at this, but I really think they missed the boat not adding some kickstarter exclusive stuff to get folks more excited about pledging. Not exclusive models or things - but like some kickstarter dice (that aren't those boring white dice, enough of those already!) or some upgraded acrylic tokens (hopefully not like the ones that were offered for Firefight which were cheap and crummy). Kickstarter psychology is real man, take advantage of our weak, human foibles!
I did notice that the add-on D8s are (hypothetically) not the ones that come in the starters:
I am of course tempted, but I would be all over acrylic tokens! Give me frivolous-yet-exclusive things to add on, Mantic!
lord_blackfang wrote: It's not ideal. But a 1500 pts army costs the same as a GW box of 6 tanks, so there's that.
Yeah, this is why I wasn't comparing it to LI when it came to price. I'm pretty sure the price for AC will be fairly in line which is more my comparison. Also I simply don't want to build the fiddly LI models. I think they look amazing but god building them will crush my soul.
The reason they aren't "being more clear" is because its not a 10mm game, the infantry are 10mm but the vehicles are at a smaller scale to fit on the sprues - they were actually pretty clear on that point. They hope that they can scale up the vehicles once they go towards final production but it doesn't sound like they have any intention of actually getting them to match the infantry scale, only to get the scale closer.
I don't know how I missed this. I'm used to vehicles looking a bit small next to their miniatures which can be ok as most folks don't realize just how small tanks and APC's are. However, looking closely at the banner picture it does look like they may be SIGNIFICANTLY undersized. Looking at the door on the Plague Mule, it looks like it may be a 6mm vehicle.
Are there any closer up pictures showing the vehicles right alongside miniatures?
I could really use some more 10mm infantry for my other games, but unless this gets rectified, I may be out or at least scaling my pledge back. I've basically got to decide if whatever pledge I make is worth it for the infantry (likely GPCS and Enforcers) alone as the chances of anyone in the club buying in are nil and even though Mauraders and Forgefathers are appealing as factions, I've got no interest in painting up multiple whole armies that aren't in scale with their vehicles.
The sad thing is that it doesn't have to be this way, especially when dealing in small scale and plastic. One of the biggest benefits of smaller scales is that it means you can make FEWER compromises in terms of miniature and terrain sizes. This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games. There are a few outliers, but my current 10mm sci-fi stuff (mostly rebased Mechwarrior clix) generally has appropriately sized vehicles and likewise CAV seems to have done a good job of keeping to scale as well with the possible exception of aircraft. The vehicles Mantic is showing here would look like toys next to other current 10mm offerings.
I've so enjoyed the KoW rules (3 editions now) that I'd love to be able to support Mantic with other purchases, but they don't make it easy.
Why Mantic Why?!?!?
sprue space
they don't know yet how the models translate to the sprues and therefore designed the vehicles smaller to really fit the wanted amount of models inside the box
if the tooling company (most likely Archon) is reporting back that there is space left, the size of the vehicles will be increased
a real KS were no final product/sculpts can be shown off but everything, from model to the rules is subject of change
Eilif wrote: This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games.
yeah, if this would be the case GW would be done, but somehow no one cares if one models are in scale or not but come up with background stories how the different size is "fluffy"
And it's great to see that they're already working out how to make the vehicles bigger, so they won't be tiny as they are in the examples shown so far. Awesome!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How different is the scale for the vehicles? Are we talking something like 1/160 vs 1/144, or something more like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops?
Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.
The figures are admittedly on bases, but they are taller than the hulls of the tanks of both factions. Maybe the Grav tanks could be 2-man attack vehicles, but they certainly aren't APC's.
It's a shame because I think the infantry and walkers look pretty good.
sprue space
they don't know yet how the models translate to the sprues and therefore designed the vehicles smaller to really fit the wanted amount of models inside the box
if the tooling company (most likely Archon) is reporting back that there is space left, the size of the vehicles will be increased
a real KS were no final product/sculpts can be shown off but everything, from model to the rules is subject of change
Eilif wrote: This isn't the 80's/90's anymore and folks should expect proper scaling from their games.
yeah, if this would be the case GW would be done, but somehow no one cares if one models are in scale or not but come up with background stories how the different size is "fluffy"
Sprue space as the reason for downscaling-vehicles is an absolutely bogus argument. if you want the vehicles to be the right size then you make them the right size on the srpue and if you have to include more sprues or have less vehicles so be it. Putting less vehicles on a sprue and producing more (actual per-sprue production costs is almost a negligible difference) is likely the real solution. If Mantic thinks their customer base will put up with such a difference to save a few bucks then they're welcome to try it, but it's still a silly reason.
I don't particularly like GW or much of their current offerings but I don't think GW has this kind of a scale problem with their current lines. 6mm vehicles with 10mm figures is like 20mm vehicles with 28mm figures. It's an incongruous and silly pairing. Sure they did when Epic/Space-Marine was in it's infancy, but that was nearly 30 years ago!
I'm talking with the club to see if it's worth it for us to buy a couple human armies for the infantry alone (which seem to be a solid bargain) but we're on the edge and there seems to be zero interest in the game as a whole. Willing to be convinced otherwise if we get a resolution to the scale issue by the end of the pledge period, but I'm not hopeful.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How different is the scale for the vehicles? Are we talking something like 1/160 vs 1/144, or something more like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops?
No one knows and at this point it is mostly conjecture based on hard-to-see shots of prototype minis taken from pulled out angles. It is also hard to know as Mantic won't be 100% certain until they are closer to actual production. They are mostly looking to get certain amounts of things on sprues, so if there is extra space then they may scale some things up to make better use of the space.
Doesn't look any worse than scale oddities found in many other small-scale 6-10mm lines (both past and present). Actual scale at these sizes can be more malleable than people realize and it is pretty easy to ignore for many folks unless it is pointed out. Had Mantic kept silent, most people probably wouldn't have noticed or cared (as can be evidenced by people only raising it as an issue after reading about it in the FAQ rather than pointing out from the aforementioned photos).
If I can be fine with metal BTech minis and original Epic vehicles/titans, then this probably won't phase me. Hell I still play with Infinity minis from the Twiggy era of heavy infantry (when their limbs were so thin that even fitting skeletons in would be a stretch). But some folks can be big sticklers for uniform scaling and there's nothing wrong with that either.
At the very least, Mantic was forthcoming about it instead of hiding it and hoping no one would notice. So people can make somewhat more informed decisions one way or the other. If small scale differences cause you ulcers, then hold off until they have things more nailed down and see for yourself. If you're willing to have scales off by a bit in the name of saving a few bucks, then go ahead and buy in. Backing unfinished products always comes with risks and unknowns, if one is averse to that, then you don't have to take plunge (which is why I like it when KS's don't have any exclusives outside of a lowered cost from retail; FOMO is a lame sales tactic).
On the GW comparison, there's a difference between vehicles being undersized and vehicles being a different scale.
A 40K rhino is too small to physically hold 10 marines, but it gets away with it because it's fairly close, and the details on the vehicle are sculpted in scale with the models even if the hull is technically too small, so it at least looks consistent with the rest of the model range.
That's not the case with the vehicles shown here. They're not undersized vehicles sculpted to the same scale as the infantry. They're shown in a completely different, smaller scale that doesn't look compatible with the troops that are supposed to use them. Details on the vehicles are too small, and in the shot just above with the Plague and Enforcers, they (particularly the Enforcers tanks) look comically small. That's further amplified by the lack of bases on the vehicles, which makes the infantry by comparison look even bigger than they actually are.
Which is a shame, because I really like the Enforcers models (and that's despite not liking the 28mm versions, for the most part). If they fix that in tooling, that's great... but it means I'll be holding off for retail to see what the models actually wind up looking like, rather than diving in here.
The scale difference is pretty noticeable on the human APC, but I don’t think it will be as much of an issue for me with the Asterians or the Enforcers. I’m most likely to use these with Dropzone and CAV vehicles for Horizon Wars, or just to fiddle with; tanks and “drones” already come in a bunch of sizes in those scales, but APCs with obvious hatches too small to function won’t work as well.
This seems like a huge blunder on Mantic’s part to me. The main draw of an “epic” scale game over a 28mm game is the ability to field huge combined arms forces with all the vehicles you can’t afford or fit in 28mm.
Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.
Sorry to call you out like this bud
Exhibit A: door size in scale
Exhibit B: door size on GW analogue
Exhibit C: door size on real world light combat vehicle
well, the ability to field huge combined arms forces increases with the models being just gaming pieces and not scale models.
best would be that everything would fit the same base size and not being in scale at all for such a goal, like they do it with Battletech
from an aesthetic point of view I agree, vehicles should be the same scale as infantry (and have bases) yet from a gameplay point of view to get larger forces on the table, smaller vehicles are better
I hope Mantic manages to make some of the vehicles larger, and for me the artillery looks worse with the wrong size than the Mules, but I don't see it as a big problem if they stay that size
Eilif wrote: Sprue space as the reason for downscaling-vehicles is an absolutely bogus argument. if you want the vehicles to be the right size then you make them the right size on the srpue and if you have to include more sprues or have less vehicles so be it. Putting less vehicles on a sprue and producing more (actual per-sprue production costs is almost a negligible difference) is likely the real solution. If Mantic thinks their customer base will put up with such a difference to save a few bucks then they're welcome to try it, but it's still a silly reason.
point is, they are producing a single plastic frame per faction, if they change that to 2 frames just to get the vehicles larger, we would not have 4 factions but just 2 in the beginning, and people would call that a failed game because no one will ever play anything with just 2 factions at start unless it is made by GW.
and doing less tanks per frame but adding more frames will result in having half units for the other models on the box and people will call it a dick move and call Mantic out for being anti-consumer and not buying it (or the box gets more expensive, providing more than they need and people will complain that Mantic is not selling them smaller boxes with half units)
Mantic is just not in the place to allow them to pull of some GW moves of not including full units in a box or being a little more expensive
the same way they need to deliver perfect rules because something that might need a balance update after 6 months is just not worth buying
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insaniak wrote: On the GW comparison, there's a difference between vehicles being undersized and vehicles being a different scale.
well, I once did a full measurement of the GW stuff in search of alternatives in the old days and a 40k tank matches 1/48 scale, while the tank weapons are 1/35 and infantry is supposed to be 1/56
some of the modern GW infantry is 1/54 or 1/50, but the same way the tanks increased in size
if scale is important, the difference between 1/54 and 1/48 or 1/35 is quite noticeable
40k just gets away with it as no one really has a "felling" how big military vehicles usually are and they are smaller than most people expect from them, specially APCs
With all this talk of things being out of scale and whether there will be enough room for tanks etc, I don't see why Mantic don't just scale down the troops a little bit. Their vehicles will then be "in scale" and maybe they can fit another few bits and pieces onto the sprue.
Why are the vehicles potentially variable in size but the infantry MUST be 12mm tall?
Just drop the Enforcers to 10mm, make a regular human 9mm and a dwarf 7mm. Surely there isn't that great a loss in detail at that size, after all we're already talking miniatures that are going to be shade, drybrush, done. From what I gather no one is particularly excited about the infantry being as big as they are anyway.
It's very true. I would say prior to the release of Legions, along with base size queries (which seems to be the other obsession) about 50% of social media posts were questions about scale.
So reading some of the posts above this is what I should expect from the scaling?
Zethnar wrote: Why are the vehicles potentially variable in size but the infantry MUST be 12mm tall?
going by what Matt Gilbert said in an interview, they experimented with different sized models for Enforcers and settled with the size that had the best balance between size and details which gave them a total model size of roughly 12mm
and the other infantry/walkers was designed to be in line with the Enforcer
I don’t get why they don’t just have fewer troops on the sprue in order to make room for full sized vehicles. An extra sprue per box (for the troops) surely can’t cost more than they could lose in sales if the vehicles are unsatisfactory.
Zethnar wrote: Why are the vehicles potentially variable in size but the infantry MUST be 12mm tall?
going by what Matt Gilbert said in an interview, they experimented with different sized models for Enforcers and settled with the size that had the best balance between size and details which gave them a total model size of roughly 12mm
and the other infantry/walkers was designed to be in line with the Enforcer
Again, that just seems kinda bogus. Someone is deciding they need to be that big for some reason and is unwilling to compromise. Not that it actually bothers me over-much, but it really seems like the easiest solution to their scale issue, which is only an issue because they want to make the infantry that big in the first place.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don’t get why they don’t just have fewer troops on the sprue in order to make room for full sized vehicles. An extra sprue per box (for the troops) surely can’t cost more than they could lose in sales if the vehicles are unsatisfactory.
Scroll down to the end of this here update. I reckon they just don't yet know how many thingies they can stuff on a spru?
Assuming the vehicles end up unchanged from the heading promotional picture, and using the Plague Mule (look at the hatch size) as an example, it really does look like 6mm vehicles for 10mm troops.
Sorry to call you out like this bud
Exhibit A: door size in scale
Exhibit B: door size on GW analogue
Exhibit C: door size on real world light combat vehicle
No offence taken. Your picture does show that it's not quite as bad as I feared, but the 10mm version is still smaller than it should be, even taking into account the necessary bulkiness of 10mm infantry.
The real world combat vehicle is not really germaine to the issue. I've already expressed that real world combat vehicles are smaller than most folks think. I'm one of the people that think that the current edition of the Rhino is actually not too far from being correctly scaled.
point is, they are producing a single plastic frame per faction, if they change that to 2 frames just to get the vehicles larger, we would not have 4 factions but just 2 in the beginning, and people would call that a failed game because no one will ever play anything with just 2 factions at start unless it is made by GW.
and doing less tanks per frame but adding more frames will result in having half units for the other models on the box and people will call it a dick move and call Mantic out for being anti-consumer and not buying it (or the box gets more expensive, providing more than they need and people will complain that Mantic is not selling them smaller boxes with half units)
I don't buy it. If you have to make less tanks per sprue, do so and just make more of that sprue. Once you've got the tooling, it's not terribly expensive or time consuming to just make more. Mantic has done enough corner cutting and half-measures in their miniature production thus far. Here's a new game, a new scale and a new chance to just flipping do it right.
Hopefully, as has been suggested, Mantic can figure this out.
On the GW comparison, there's a difference between vehicles being undersized and vehicles being a different scale. well, I once did a full measurement of the GW stuff in search of alternatives in the old days and a 40k tank matches 1/48 scale, while the tank weapons are 1/35 and infantry is supposed to be 1/56
some of the modern GW infantry is 1/54 or 1/50, but the same way the tanks increased in size
if scale is important, the difference between 1/54 and 1/48 or 1/35 is quite noticeable.
Setting asside scale creep, everything from GW has pretty much followed these rough comparisons for decades. The height is 1/56 (more like 1/50 now), the thickness of figures and size of vehicles is closer to 1/48, and weapons is closer to1/35 (or even bigger, as 1/35 firearms are still notably slimmer than GW). That's just the aesthetic and it's fairly consistent across their ranges. That's not what's being discussed here.
so for GW it is the aesthetic, but for Mantic it is an issue
which means the main problem is that Mantic mentioned a scale/size while GW gets away with it because they don't have a scale/size in the first place
If you have to make less tanks per sprue, do so and just make more of that sprue
so you have no problem with needing 2 core army sets to make a full infantry unit?
you would not complain to need to buy another box because the first one just has enough models to make 1 and a half unit, like people do with LI?
if people already complain about those things with GW, why do you think Mantic can get away with that?
and just doubling the box and make it 3 or 4000 points for a 2000 points game and expect people do not complain that there should be less models inside with a decreased price?
Zethnar wrote: Someone is deciding they need to be that big for some reason and is unwilling to compromise. Not that it actually bothers me over-much, but it really seems like the easiest solution to their scale issue, which is only an issue because they want to make the infantry that big in the first place.
you assume that "they" think that there is a scale issue in the first place
some people here think that models in a miniature games being not in scale is in issue for non-GW games, that does not necessarily mean that the designers of those games think that there is in issue in the first place, or that tanks being not perfectly in scale would affect sales more than less detailed infantry
yes, Mantic could release the very same infantry in quality as GW did with LI and this would crumble their sales much more because bad looking plastic infantry is an issue if you are not GW hence why the prioritise the infantry details and not the size of the vehicles
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don’t get why they don’t just have fewer troops on the sprue in order to make room for full sized vehicles. An extra sprue per box (for the troops) surely can’t cost more than they could lose in sales if the vehicles are unsatisfactory.
Scroll down to the end of this here update. I reckon they just don't yet know how many thingies they can stuff on a spru?
more like they don't know how many pieces the tanks must be split into
people already complain that there are not enough details on the vehicles, but more details would mean more parts and with that less sprue space
Why would you need to buy two boxes? If they were going to sell boxes with 5 sprues, they can reduce the infantry by 1/6th to fit the vehicles at proper size rather than .7 size and just pack 6 sprues instead of 5. The additional cost for another sprue has got to be less than the cost of killing the new release hype, adding another brick to the wall of “Mantic. Almost.” and having angry customers demand refunds. It would be penny wise and pound foolish not to fix vehicle sizes just to get a “perfect” sprue.
As above, you really think Mantic can get away with LI quality infantry?
And for now, 3 people on Dakka being angry because "not final" 3D renders of vehicles being off scale has enough impact to completely redesign the full project?
kodos wrote: As above, you really think Mantic can get away with LI quality infantry?
And for now, 3 people on Dakka being angry because "not final" 3D renders of vehicles being off scale has enough impact to completely redesign the full project?
I don't think anyone's angry about it. A few people have been discussing preferences, is all.
Scale won’t affect whether I take the plunge or not really.
I think I would like it more in line sure, and hopefully they do increase vehicle size a bit, and I would also be happy with 1-2mm smaller scale infantry for instance.
kodos wrote: As above, you really think Mantic can get away with LI quality infantry?
And for now, 3 people on Dakka being angry because "not final" 3D renders of vehicles being off scale has enough impact to completely redesign the full project?
I'm guessing it's more than 3 on Dakka, as they've already said they are addressing the issue.
And it's more a case of 6-spus per box for a 2000 pt base army instead of five, rather than two boxes instead of one. This doesn't seem to be a big deal, and they're aiming for a solution that, hopefully, will please all us scale-nerds.
they have said from the very beginning that they aim for larger vehicles if possible, but just don't know yet
so nothing really changed
the problem is that they have 1 base per frame for certain units, which gives 1 unit of 6 bases per box
changing the amount of frames per box will also change this and give not enough models per box to field complete units
and yes, if a single box ends up with models for 4 or 5 bases were you need 6, this would be much bigger issue for many more people
(and even with 4 bases and "just buy another box" people ending up with 8 and it will be an issue)
The other option would be to add another sprue to the box instead, I guess. That way you'd end up with extras.
I expect it would also impact the price, but it might be a good trade off. Time will tell. I'm personally an old Epic hand, I don't really mind if they fiddle with the scale xD
Mmm nope I'd hoped they wouldn't pursist with that design, oh well I have 2 Aberrations that will fit the role of a Colossus and just about fit a 50mm base (although that looks bigger than a 50mm base)
8 factions of STLs, print as many as you want for £125 is really great value at about £15 an army.
They're really keen to get this one moving, I'm thinking 2x captain + STLs for £423 rather than the £475 pledge level though, to get everything I'll ever need for all 8 armies. The really nice thing is minimizing the pile of grey, whenever I need a new unit outside of the core hard plastics to try a new army build, 3d printer goes brrr and there it is, it doesn't have to exist until I want to paint it and include it in a game.
And 2x captain comes with 4 sprues of battlezone terrain too, which is a nice amount to sprinkle on the table and maybe even enough for travel deadzone...
Agreed, that actually translated in to 3D better than expected. I think the extra apparent thickness on the legs helps a lot.
The proportions on the concept art seem mostly like a normal sized rhino. On the render, they're around as wide as three/four human torsos and give much better sense of bulk and scale to the thing.
I have doubts they'll get to nameless, personally i had also hoped for more tunnel runners - assuming they end up 1 model pet base. Still seems pretty good as far as a unit selection goes
Lots of good insights including vehicle scale and pics of tanks on bases which makes them look a lot better when they don't lose out on that base thickness vs infantry.
The video is pretty interesting, and does give a sense of more meaningful design intent behind the play style of the various factions, which I hadn't really appreciated from the core game rules.
Also contained a physical example of a based hover vehicle, which I think is a massive, massive improvement over the original KS images:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I wonder if one of the side guns could fit on the top to replace the whole turret.
Good call, would reduce the height profile of the whole thing.
It's still too small to be an APC, though. Enlarge hull by ~10-20%, leave turret alone or redesign to lower profile and it's good to go. But then, it is worth noting that the variant in the picture is possibly supposed to be the enforcer artillery or heavy weapons tank, the other gun turret is much smaller, it really depends on the in-game role for it, which we don't quite know yet.
I understand about scale and table readability, but overall, a size increase and less exaggeration of features would work better. The hull is okay, just needs to be bigger, lower profile turret and just using a side gun as the whole turret is something I might do if the sculpt remains as-is, or not if it turns out to be intended as an artillery platform.
I've played/painted a lot of 10mm KoW, the sculpt exagerration isn't everything, in fact painting makes more of a difference as far as being able to pick out units across the table goes, it's why I did things like different skin tones for zombies and ghouls, the grey ones are ghouls, green ones are zombies. The sculpts themselves wouldn't be enough to express that difference between units from 4 feet away, no matter how exaggerated.
Same goes with the Enforcer tank, better to paint the gun turret with a blue glow or hazard stripes etc. to mark it out from the APCs rather than the turret being colossal.
I don't have an issue with the plague artillery since it works with the faction to have some giant clunking artillery and it doesn't have to dual-kit as an APC so the hull size is less important for realism.
Some little clear flattened dome-shaped hover bases would work great for the Enforcer tanks I think, I might mount everything on 2mm bases when it arrives anyway, since that works pretty well for this scale, 3-4mm stands out too much, go down to 1mm and the mini becomes difficult to pick up. Lower profile bases might be a better look for vehicles too.
I'm just super-exicted for how the kickstarter is going. 8 hard plastic factions on-launch, all kinds of different alien races handled via a single crammed-full hard plastic sprue is what made the original epic release by GW so great, you could buy a single, reasonably-priced box and have a whole playable army with loads of different unit types and flexibility, what Mantic is doing with this is the spiritual successor to that original and really great concept by GW 30 years ago, one sprue, loaded with different units:
I'll be going all-in for all 8 factions, since I really think it captures the appeal of oldschool epic better than LI does.
It still has power-armoured humans, regular humans, space elves, space dwarves, space orcs and gribbly aliens, with a couple of new flavours of science-fantasy races.
Love that old Epic sprue! Great to see Mantic doing a modern version of it, a box with (I assume) 6 copies of one sprue will give you around 50 bases of infantry and 18 tanks for a total of 8-9 unit types, for the same price as 6 GW tanks.
Bioptic wrote: The video is pretty interesting, and does give a sense of more meaningful design intent behind the play style of the various factions, which I hadn't really appreciated from the core game rules.
Also contained a physical example of a based hover vehicle, which I think is a massive, massive improvement over the original KS images:
I do appreciate that new picture. Still massively underscaled, but it's nice to have a very clear picture where you can see the hatch size and the infantry comparison. I think there are probably a good number of folks who will be ok with 6mm vehicles and 10 mm troops.
I'm a bit stunned that they had all this time to prep for GCPS to unlock and they don't already have explanatory graphics and details to share on what that means.
There's 4 days left to go on the campaign, they don't have time to wait to drum up hype.
Likewise the failure to present the veer-myn superheavy is a bit of a major fail.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm a bit stunned that they had all this time to prep for GCPS to unlock and they don't already have explanatory graphics and details to share on what that means.
There's 4 days left to go on the campaign, they don't have time to wait to drum up hype.
Likewise the failure to present the veer-myn superheavy is a bit of a major fail.
Given that Mantic was one of the foundational companies that defined the format of wargaming crowdfunders and they obviously know exactly how to do it, their "failure" can only be a sign that this is a genuine early stage project and they really are soliciting ideas from backers for what the veer-myn superheavy should even be, for example.
Given that they have just finished to transfer the existing sculpts for the 4 starters before the campaign started with the super/uber heavies not even having complete artworks and most models of the core factions not having renders
I agree here with lord-blackfang, they might have a plan on what is going to be plastic based on existing models but not done any work yet for the specific EWP stuff
which is a good thing in my opinion because with those things being not final and subject of change we can have influence to get the stuff we want
Well per the comments they already have the veer-myn superheavy in design, but it seems they aren't married to the concept as they are sliciting suggestsons (that or they wanted to give the illusion of soliciting feedback even though they have no intent of actually listening).
Billicus wrote: Was starting to think I was the only one here that likes the giant plague rhino thing!
haha, you aren't alone. it's RAD. But if our group ends up getting the STL, it's likely I wont print that sucker on an 80mm base. That's feels too big to me.
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Bioptic wrote: The video is pretty interesting, and does give a sense of more meaningful design intent behind the play style of the various factions, which I hadn't really appreciated from the core game rules.
Also contained a physical example of a based hover vehicle, which I think is a massive, massive improvement over the original KS images:
For context, we know what's going on the first four plastic frames and that's what was sculpted in time for the KS. After that sculpting is continuing for things we want to include. For the stuff where we didn't know if it was unlocked or not, nothing is sculpted at all (and new stuff not concepted). No rules for the Veer-myn super heavy will be written until it's known what it is! There are ideas for the other ones for new unlocked factions they will be put up for feedback and other ideas.
I had a concept artist in today and asked him to look at a reworked Panther tank too, alongside the super-heavies he was doing. Even that was all old school pen and paper... I'll pass those to the KS team once they are scanned and cleaned up later. Hopefully he can then take backer feedback and make tweaks, alongside designs for some of the other new stuff we've added to the armies. I've only got him for a few days this week!
KS page was updated with GCPS load out, actually kinda tempted by them. Seemed yo have sparked a surge in pledges too, currently sitting at 240k gbp. Getting close to unlocking marauders, question is does the campaign have the fuel to make it to nameless?
chaos0xomega wrote: KS page was updated with GCPS load out, actually kinda tempted by them. Seemed yo have sparked a surge in pledges too, currently sitting at 240k gbp. Getting close to unlocking marauders, question is does the campaign have the fuel to make it to nameless?
The GCPS look really cool. You get Mules like the Plague have, but the Hornets and other tanks are also pretty rad.
chaos0xomega wrote: KS page was updated with GCPS load out, actually kinda tempted by them. Seemed yo have sparked a surge in pledges too, currently sitting at 240k gbp. Getting close to unlocking marauders, question is does the campaign have the fuel to make it to nameless?
Gonna be a nailbiter for sure. 30k for Marauders with the 48h reminder email surge is gonna be easy, but another 50k...?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the Veery-Myn #2
Marauders are ok, going for air support is not my favourite put ok
GCPS, while I like the idea, non of the concepts are fitting
Should be chassis #1 with a single large canopy, the legs from bottom left but 6 instead of 4
chaos0xomega wrote: I nore that the veer-myn concept is not a technodrome, nor is it really much of anything else that was suggested in the comments.
I like the second design (I think the first is trying to have some kind of rat head on the front).
It's a shame it's not closer to the technodrome, but I think it still fulfills the same design space: a big mining rig bristling with armor and weapons that I'd assume also works as a transport vehicle.
And besides, it's not like we can't just print our own models for it.
I think we'll see a huge surge once it looks like 8 factions are unlockable and people start adding extra captain pledges to their order to get all the factions.
I'm considering 2x captain + STL pack to get everything I'll ever need for the game.
The STL pack is great value even by indie KS standards, around £16 an army, having that coming from an established company supported by a great ruleset adds a lot of extra value, I'm going to share it around on the STL reddit groups since I know my stuff with that.
Seeing how well the superheavies print on FDM at 28mm could also be really fun, maybe go crazy big with the drakon and build a 4x4 deadzone demo board inside it. I did slice up a few armada ships for 28mm and it looked like it would work well but ultimately shelved the project until I can get a bambu labs printer so it doesn't take weeks.
It's interesting that the 10mm versions wind up with better proportions than the 28mm models. If the 28mm enforcers looked like that, I'd own a million of them.
I'm torn because I will back it if I can get Marauders but I'm not sure if they'll quite reach that unlock. If I back it before it reaches the tier it helps get to that amount but if it falls just short I'm stuck with having pledged but not for the faction I want. Bleh.
Ahtman wrote: I'm torn because I will back it if I can get Marauders but I'm not sure if they'll quite reach that unlock. If I back it before it reaches the tier it helps get to that amount but if it falls just short I'm stuck with having pledged but not for the faction I want. Bleh.
and that's a hard spot because it will bounce up and down fast the last few hours.
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Werkrobotwerk wrote: I went with the two army bundle. I definitely want the rats, but im unsure if the second army will be asterians, gcps, or enforcer.
I know, I kind of want the alien Asterians, they are different. Hard choices.
Getting Veer-Myn for sure but not sure about the 2nd Faction
Somehow Enforcer would be nice but as a Dwarf player FF are the classic choice.
Marauders if we make it or Nameless are also an option, simply because those Orks are different to what else is around and professional Mercenaries > Hooligans for me while Nameless are something no one else makes
Ahtman wrote: I'm torn because I will back it if I can get Marauders but I'm not sure if they'll quite reach that unlock. If I back it before it reaches the tier it helps get to that amount but if it falls just short I'm stuck with having pledged but not for the faction I want. Bleh.
you can always cancel your pledge before the KS ends, so if Marauders are not unlocked until the last hour just remove it or reduce it for just the rulebook
Jokes aside, I do wonder if this is an easier sell to "GW Only" sorts. You can't tell they're Mantic minis at a glance, they're just tiny sci fi things, so the rules are really doing the heavy lifting. And the minis look miles better, imho, than LI anyway.
I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.
So I held off until the late campaign to really look at this so I could just skip to what is ACTUALLY on offer.
It's a touch unclear, but it looks to me like the core army sets are only available in plastic, with no STL for those (basic, army building) units - only the reinforcements seem to be available in STL. Is that true?
Pacific wrote: I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.
I’m curious what rough percentage of current GW fans care enough about rules quality to buy not GW for better rules.
Pacific wrote: I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.
I’m curious what rough percentage of current GW fans care enough about rules quality to buy not GW for better rules.
My guess is only the slimest minority. I have encountered a fair few GW fans and customers who are entirely unaware that other games and rulesets even exist.
infinite_array wrote: I'm torn. Do I go wide and increase my pledge to Captain and get four plastic starters? Or deep, keep my Lieutenant pledge, and get the resin add ons?
This was my dilemma! I've just gone up to Captain, it felt like better value than the reinforcement boxes. It's still nailbiting choosing between the 7(hopefully 8) factions on offer, I think I'm currently veering towards GCPS, Veer-myn, Marauders and Asterians
Pacific wrote: I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.
I’m curious what rough percentage of current GW fans care enough about rules quality to buy not GW for better rules.
My guess is only the slimest minority. I have encountered a fair few GW fans and customers who are entirely unaware that other games and rulesets even exist.
The market is *lapsed* GW fans, rather than people currently playing. That makes a big difference imo
infinite_array wrote: I'm torn. Do I go wide and increase my pledge to Captain and get four plastic starters? Or deep, keep my Lieutenant pledge, and get the resin add ons?
Plastic is cheaper than resin (or even STLs, for some reason) but I'm guessing you'll have better games with a complete faction.
My take on it is to go wide if you have a 3D printer, and go deep if you don't.
Double Captain (£298) + £125 STLs = £423 for every model you'll ever need for the game is really good value for "printer go brrr" types.
Without one, £89 lieutenant + £150 for two factions of reinforcements and 4 super heavies is also pretty good, maybe with a couple of sets of faction dice and KS exclusive counters to finish.
Alas, that means I'm out. I'm trying to transition away from "bundles of physical miniatures" Kickstarters, due to a closet already full of them and modern shipping costs/delays/issues/hassle/something-always-happens-these-days-with-the-shipping.
Maybe later, if those units hit the Vault in the future.
Pacific wrote: I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.
I’m curious what rough percentage of current GW fans care enough about rules quality to buy not GW for better rules.
Haha that is probably a good point. Myself and a bunch of guys in my group have given up on Necromunda rules and are using One Page Rules for example, so we do exist. At least one person I know has been put off Legions due to how crunchy the rules are. Although ultimately we are still suckers as we are buying GW minis - I guess GW doesn't care why the money flows, only that it flows!
On Billicus' point above, I think you have a fair few people who still play some GW games and go outside of that silo as well. Though I am sure there are also some 'never GW'ers, broken ex-WHFB players who had the rug pulled out from under them etc.
scarletsquig wrote: My take on it is to go wide if you have a 3D printer, and go deep if you don't.
Double Captain (£298) + £125 STLs = £423 for every model you'll ever need for the game is really good value for "printer go brrr" types.
Without one, £89 lieutenant + £150 for two factions of reinforcements and 4 super heavies is also pretty good, maybe with a couple of sets of faction dice and KS exclusive counters to finish.
This is my current plan, but I'll probably stage the spending over the waiting time
I have too many 500€ kickstarters already collecting dust in my basement to go all in like that gain. 2 factions for me + some friends piggybacking on my pledge.
Pacific wrote: I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.
I’m curious what rough percentage of current GW fans care enough about rules quality to buy not GW for better rules.
Myself and several members of my club are in that camp. I haven't bought any new GW product in a while (cost too much and I've got a huge backlog) but I like the GW settings alot, have fairly large collection of minis (especially 40k) and have been playing with alternate rulesets for years now. KoW is my go-to for large Fantasy battles. I like it alot and will likely not be buying into "The Old World". One Page Rules is my Go-To for 40k gaming. In both cases, I have earlier edition GW rulebooks and Codex/Army books to get my fluff/background needs taken care of. In the case of OPR, the option lists are complete enough that in most cases, one can read a GW codex, pick out an army, and then stat it up straight away.
As for Epic Warpath Kickstarter, we just decided not to participate. The group is doing a fair amount of 10mm Sci-Fi right now so the 2025 delivery (not unreasonable, but not quick enough for us) plus the general lack of interest in the game itself from club members makes it not a good idea right now. There's some good Mantic discounters over here, so if interest picks up maybe we'll buy some in the future at retail, but not at this point.
The £125 STL bundle seems like absurd value to me - but I suppose it depends on whether you actually want/would use everything! And if printing is viable.
Each faction now has 8-9 booster units, and 2 super-heavies. Overall I think there are 71 units covered to date, and with the nameless that should be 81+ across 8 factions.
That averages out to about £1.50 per unit (with some units composed of 2+ unique models).
Or if you want to break it out more proportionately:
- £2.50 per Super-heavy
- £1.31 per infantry / command / vehicle unit
I like the idea of choosing a few plastic armies now, but then having the flexibility to build up more over time by just buying plastic starters through online discounters.
There's probably going to be a month or two before the pledge manager actually opens while Mantic gets all their gak in one sock.
Realistically you're probably looking at the pledge manager closing around May-June (rough guess). You'd be surprised how many small scale models they can have sculpted between now and then. We probably won't see all the factions, but I wouldn't be shocked if a significant number of them are locked in.
infinite_array wrote: I'm torn. Do I go wide and increase my pledge to Captain and get four plastic starters? Or deep, keep my Lieutenant pledge, and get the resin add ons?
Have you figured that out? We are discussing / pondering but I am hesitating to order too much for a different reason: the more varied and complex one's order, the more likely there is of a delay.
If we can get a feel for the game with just the core starter boxes, I'm not shy about waiting and adding on more later through online discounted vendors.
Our group decided to go for the complete STL Bundle just in case and buy resin add-ons later if needed
Yet for me I might change to captain as my son is interested in 2 factions and adding going with 4 instead of to have some variety also for demo games looks like a no-brainer
lord_blackfang wrote: Welcome back, dakka. In the meantime we've unlocked the tentacle people and overshot them by another 50k, but it seems no new goodies are forthcoming.
I still think they needed £50k per faction £400k total which it should get close to now so I can understand them not adding anything new, I wouldn’t mind a few more terrain sprues or something already planned though
We're also getting the STL bundle together, somehow I drummed up 8 people to chip in (for comparison, 3 people in total bought any Legions Imperialis product) and then 1-2 faction starters each.
infinite_array wrote: I'm torn. Do I go wide and increase my pledge to Captain and get four plastic starters? Or deep, keep my Lieutenant pledge, and get the resin add ons?
This was my dilemma! I've just gone up to Captain, it felt like better value than the reinforcement boxes. It's still nailbiting choosing between the 7(hopefully 8) factions on offer, I think I'm currently veering towards GCPS, Veer-myn, Marauders and Asterians
Pacific wrote: I think what might be the biggest sell for this for GW fans is how quick and clean the ruleset seems to be. Especially now that Legions has been in the wilds for a while, that is not a game for casual play, I think you need to devote a lot of time and energy to learning and playing the game. The nice one-line weapon profiles of the Warpath units might seem appealing to anyone looking through page-long unit profiles in Legions and trying to work out which dice to roll, which have modifiers etc.
I’m curious what rough percentage of current GW fans care enough about rules quality to buy not GW for better rules.
My guess is only the slimest minority. I have encountered a fair few GW fans and customers who are entirely unaware that other games and rulesets even exist.
The market is *lapsed* GW fans, rather than people currently playing. That makes a big difference imo
What those that blindly criticize GW do not understand is, most buyers are collectors only. So obviusly only a very small percentage care about rules: the players.
I am in a lot of national and international LI groups. The proportion of players amongst collectors is so low that surprised me (no higher that 1 out of 50). I do not know if it is the same as in other games ...
SU-152 wrote: The proportion of players amongst collectors is so low that surprised me (no higher that 1 out of 50). I do not know if it is the same as in other games ...
no, because most other games, you buy in because they are games
GW you buy for "the hobby" and gaming is not a high priority there hence why they don't care about rules, good enough for the 1 out of 50 who plays once in a while and any complaining is unheard because the other 49 will say that rules don't matter at all
Just to jump on the GW rules/players conversation:
An AOS mate of mine told me recently that he doesn't care about better systems, it's just easier to get games of GW systems than it is anything else locally (because everyone plays them because you can get games easier...).
He won't even consider picking up anything non-GW, even if I lay it all out and run demos or whatever.
ANYWAY - backed at the last minute! Very low pledge, for now, and I'll see what I can afford when the PM rolls out ha haa
easier to find players
but balance is off
must play with the right people that don't bring OP units
but it is not easy to find such players
processing error - it is easier to find players
anyway
2530 supporters and 395.990 GBP, which is more than the first WP Kickstarter but a 1000 less supporters
infinite_array wrote: I'm torn. Do I go wide and increase my pledge to Captain and get four plastic starters? Or deep, keep my Lieutenant pledge, and get the resin add ons?
Have you figured that out? We are discussing / pondering but I am hesitating to order too much for a different reason: the more varied and complex one's order, the more likely there is of a delay.
If we can get a feel for the game with just the core starter boxes, I'm not shy about waiting and adding on more later through online discounted vendors.
I ended up doing neither, actually!
I just sat on my Lieutenant pledge. If what Mantic has said is true, a single core box should be enough for a full sized game. So I can see if I like the system and expand from there.
Plus, delivery is a year or more out and I'm far more conservative with my Kickstarter backings then I used to be.
kodos wrote: 2530 supporters and 395.990 GBP, which is more than the first WP Kickstarter but a 1000 less supporters
Which is some strange math since the buyin on Epic was much lower
So Warpath 28mm must have had a lot of 1$ just to see what happens backers.
think so, like people did the 1$ to get access to the rules/beta test the check if it was an alternative to 40k without buying more
while here it looks like most of those who join going to play the game as well and/or people doing higher pledges as a single person buys for a gaming group
SU-152 wrote: The proportion of players amongst collectors is so low that surprised me (no higher that 1 out of 50). I do not know if it is the same as in other games ...
no, because most other games, you buy in because they are games
GW you buy for "the hobby" and gaming is not a high priority there hence why they don't care about rules, good enough for the 1 out of 50 who plays once in a while and any complaining is unheard because the other 49 will say that rules don't matter at all
100% accurate IMO. I've noticed it with myself as of late - I haven't played a game of anything since 10th edition 40k dropped (No AoS or HH nor other games), and even prior to that I was tapering off on the frequency of my play. Likewise quite a few others I know... yet we all continue to throw money at our toy soldiers.
An AOS mate of mine told me recently that he doesn't care about better systems, it's just easier to get games of GW systems than it is anything else locally (because everyone plays them because you can get games easier...).
He won't even consider picking up anything non-GW, even if I lay it all out and run demos or whatever.
ANYWAY - backed at the last minute! Very low pledge, for now, and I'll see what I can afford when the PM rolls out ha haa
This has been my experience with the overwhelming majority of folks I know who play GW games. Irony is on the rare occasion I've managed to convince someone to try another game, they always inevitably end up essentially quitting GW entirely in preference of the other game in question (mostly warmavhine, but I've had some success with malifaux as well).
I'll keep grinding away. I can't see it being fun plugging away at AoS for 3 hours just to Math Hammer it at turn 4 and call it there. You could play two games of literally anything else in that time!
Fingers crossed this campaign will be delivered as smoothly as Dungeon Sage (translation issues aside of course).
SU-152 wrote: The proportion of players amongst collectors is so low that surprised me (no higher that 1 out of 50). I do not know if it is the same as in other games ...
no, because most other games, you buy in because they are games
GW you buy for "the hobby" and gaming is not a high priority there hence why they don't care about rules, good enough for the 1 out of 50 who plays once in a while and any complaining is unheard because the other 49 will say that rules don't matter at all
I don’t think this is true. I’ve bought into many games purely for the minis (and lore), such as Deadzone, Dreadball, Dropzone Commander, Kingdom Death, Ankh and Rising Sun, whatever games Wargames Atlantic is pretending to sell. Most of the people I know in the hobby are the same, especially when it comes to boutique miniature games like Kingdom Death.
The only Mantic games I made any serious attempt to play were Kings of War and Armada, and neither of those caught on.
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kodos wrote: easier to find players
but balance is off
must play with the right people that don't bring OP units
but it is not easy to find such players
processing error - it is easier to find players
anyway
2530 supporters and 395.990 GBP, which is more than the first WP Kickstarter but a 1000 less supporters
I will always choose hanging with friends I want to be around and maybe gaming over getting a game with some stranger I wouldn’t want to hang around with.
Well that is not a bad total. Went for three factions in the end and then will go from there - hopefully a nice big pile of minis next March. Now let the waiting game begin!
chaos0xomega wrote:Irony is on the rare occasion I've managed to convince someone to try another game, they always inevitably end up essentially quitting GW entirely in preference of the other game in question (mostly warmavhine, but I've had some success with malifaux as well).
my experience as well, once people who want to play (and not just collect and paint) play something else, they never go back to GW. They still buy their models but hardly play any of their games again
Tabletop_Magpie wrote:So, some success then! Well done and keep it up!
I'll keep grinding away. I can't see it being fun plugging away at AoS for 3 hours just to Math Hammer it at turn 4 and call it there. You could play two games of literally anything else in that time!
Fingers crossed this campaign will be delivered as smoothly as Dungeon Sage (translation issues aside of course).
think the translation should go better this time as they are now knowing where the issue is and avoid it and as Mantic is always aiming for the 2 hour gaming experience they are less exhausting and therefore more fun for me anyway
I will always choose hanging with friends I want to be around and maybe gaming over getting a game with some stranger I wouldn’t want to hang around with.
me too, hence why I cannot get behind that argument
for me that is just some theoretical point that does not matter in real life similar of needing to models coming with a certain amount of details when they never see a paint job good enough to make use of that
but then I buy games and I buy models and those 2 do not need to be related and I use the models I like with the games I like and GW games are not doing it for me in general
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privateer4hire wrote: Did Zzor ever come up as even a passing joke during the campaign?
I'm skeptical that the ratio of collectors to gamers is quite as high as some are suggesting.
Additionally, I think there are alot of folks who take rules, community and likelihood of finding a game into account in their purchases even though they might only get in a couple games per year or less. Functionally they may be collectors, but they are buying as though they are gamers.
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: Just to jump on the GW rules/players conversation:
An AOS mate of mine told me recently that he doesn't care about better systems, it's just easier to get games of GW systems than it is anything else locally (because everyone plays them because you can get games easier...).
He won't even consider picking up anything non-GW, even if I lay it all out and run demos or whatever.
I completely understand this. It's sad, but if you don't have an amenable group and you enjoy gaming, GW is by far the safest choice. I wrote once that each overpriced box of GW miniatures comes packaged with a complete community of gamers. For alot of folks who don't have the inclination to be an organizer it's just not worth it to invest in other games that won't get played.
I'm very grateful I've got friends who will play KoW, Mech Attack, Alpha Strike, OPR, Space Weirdos etc...
chaos0xomega wrote: Probably because Z'zor are a star trek race and there's IP concerns, I would guess.
They were not considered because it would be starting totally from scratch (they aren't in any other system) and eight armies to get done is more than enough work to do. Nothing beyond the nameless was ever planned for the KS.
I love that my first day post-surgery where I could be upright and focused a little on fun stuff instead of just healing, was in time to see this KS end so positively!
I really intended to go super wide on 3-4 factions, but the minute I tried to figure out what armies I might cut, I realized by end of the Pledge Manager, I will probably end up doing 5-6 factions, each with two Plastic Cores, two Reinforcement boxes, etc...
I truly cannot help myself, as this might legit be my Holy Grail engine. Its juuuuust the right level of crunch for this scale of battle to play quickly, with 95% of the DNA I wanted from the Epic lineage of 40k games (still missing accumulated pin-markers, but d8s will make for much healthier game math possibilities), and it cuts out insane bs rules that no sane designer would allow beyond a first draft.
I just wish this were out sooner thanks purely to my own impatience, but I've got a new crate of Deadzone to keep me actually gaming in the meanwhile.
I must say, I feel like one can't understate enough the value of accessible, easier, but non-shallow games. I came to this hobby as a gamer first, so just knowing I can actually play and enjoy a game is such a big deal. My wife and I went soooo hard on Imperialis, and by the time we got done building even a portion of the miserable, over-priced, fiddly models we had bought, we were already frustrated. Then we tried playing and realized it felt like a clunky chore, just as often as it felt fun and interesting. We're just too old to be getting that frustrated with clumsy design.
chaos0xomega wrote: Probably because Z'zor are a star trek race and there's IP concerns, I would guess.
There might be a joke I'm missing but that statement is wrong.
Also, we have the well-known trek-planet of Andor, yet there's a boardgame and a Star Wars series named the same...
Delighted to see this doing well - I didn't pledge, in the end (somewhat "over" the whole KS thing) but really happy to see so many factions worth of models getting funded, and if I see this in a local shop I'll definitely be tempted to pick it up.
chaos0xomega wrote: Probably because Z'zor are a star trek race and there's IP concerns, I would guess.
There might be a joke I'm missing but that statement is wrong.
Also, we have the well-known trek-planet of Andor, yet there's a boardgame and a Star Wars series named the same...
Yeah you're right. I had googled Z'zor to see what yall were on about and seems somebody threw them up onto a fanon wiki for star trek rpg, which I took to be an official/canonical thing.
lord_blackfang wrote: Frankly I am way past the point where pick up games with randos at the store would be an acceptable lynchpin of my hobby.
I completely agree, but it's not just about dropping in at the FLGS. There are allot of areas in the country where your only option for a regular wargaming group might be a group focused on GW games.
I count myself lucky not be in that situation, but I think if I were and was having no luck starting an alternate group I'd probably join a 40k group. I've already got the minis and an appreciation for the setting and it would at least be a chance to game, hang with gamers and an excuse to build terrain.
It's easier to post online in local clubs or store fb groups asking if anyone is interested rather than trying to get converts from people you already know, once you get 4-6 people playing a game at a public venue, things can go from there.
Oddly, the interest in KoW at my local club is entirely at the 10mm scale, so I went ahead and got some "Forest Dragon" prints to play with. (that's the sculptor name, but they do also have a forest dragon sculpt...).
Deadzone or KoW ambush for demo games, all the way.
Project 28mm Drakon light cruiser with deadzone demo board inside is 100% going to be a thing, it's an idea I've had for a while, an STL from Mantic just makes it so much easier.
It's easier to post online in local clubs or store fb groups asking if anyone is interested rather than trying to get converts from people you already know, once you get 4-6 people playing a game at a public venue, things can go from there.
Oddly, the interest in KoW at my local club is entirely at the 10mm scale, so I went ahead and got some "Forest Dragon" prints to play with. (that's the sculptor name, but they do also have a forest dragon sculpt...).
Deadzone or KoW ambush for demo games, all the way.
Project 28mm Drakon light cruiser with deadzone demo board inside is 100% going to be a thing, it's an idea I've had for a while, an STL from Mantic just makes it so much easier.
10mm KoW rocks and Forest Dragon range is top notch. Have fun!
I wish this Mantic project could deliver sooner, but ... they usually do a good job on their KS. excited and pondering if I even want to expand Imperialis. The only option
to buy what I need at moment is GW webstore, and I really do not want to pay MSRP prices.
Mantic's Epic will be a breath of fresh air to my monthly gaming budget.
Anyone else getting in on the playtesting? I've got the playtest rules warmed up and ready to go, and a pile of old Mechwarrior click bases for proxies!
I will end up getting the whole enchilada... Probably 8 plastic armies (two 4-army pledges), the big pack o terrain sprues, the STL file for my friends with printers... And maybe some cool dice if they make them (the loud, primary color options they've got up now seem a bit garish to me, so I'm hoping they choose nicer colors/styles)
I really felt like once this KS got going, Mantic was firing on all cylinders. The art styles for the proposed superheavies look really great, the game itself looks fun (have yet to playtest!), can't wait to get this baby in my grubby hands
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Pacific wrote: I don't suppose you snapped off any pics llamahead?
That does bode well for some of the minis also being displayed at Salute next month, at least
I think the vehicles were very prototype-y. A lot of feedback from the backers went in to helping make the vehicles cooler - a major theme was to ensure they're the right size, so they look suitably imposing on the battlefield. Right now they look quite anemic and sad, particularly the Enforcer tank. They showed some sketches of ideas on how to make their tank look more imposing and menacing, instead of some top-heavy kid's toy, and I think they were moving in the right direction. I just hope they make them big enough (I don't care if that means we get fewer vehicles per spru, I just want assurance that they'll look cool!)
pancakeonions wrote: Anyone else getting in on the playtesting? I've got the playtest rules warmed up and ready to go, and a pile of old Mechwarrior click bases for proxies!
I am considering it, though needing a FB account is a downisde (don't know if it is still possible to make fake ones)
pancakeonions wrote: Anyone else getting in on the playtesting? I've got the playtest rules warmed up and ready to go, and a pile of old Mechwarrior click bases for proxies!
I am considering it, though needing a FB account is a downisde (don't know if it is still possible to make fake ones)
It's moot as they just emailed saying they were so inundated with replies that they have closed the playtest pool, for now.
They had some of the new Epic Warpath minis on display at Salute over the weekend - really neat looking and definitely comparable to Legions I would say. For those concerned about scale of the infantry (and them being too big at 10mm scale) I would say looking at them in person will allay those fears - these things are still bloody tiny.
The Mantic guy I spoke to said the vehicles they had there will probably be slightly larger than the prototypes I saw - apparently they are going to put them on a larger sprue and are putting them in bigger boxes than usual to accommodate. Also they will be a lot less parts than the GW equivalents (which must be a response to a common complaint about the kits for that game). Idea is you get them out and on the tabletop quickly.
Also said they had about 140 people playtesting the game! (Although he didn't say how many actually enjoyed it ) I should have quipped that is probably 138 more than Legions had..
We've had about 100 playtest battles submitted in the first round of testing. There will be at least four rounds, probably five. The overall impression is extremely positive and everyone has found the game really fun and easy to play. I've still made tons of changes and edits based on all the feedback though for the things that were wrong, felt off, pointed wrong, confusing in the rules etc.
The next stage of testing begins this weekend and the focus is on the scenarios and the components that feed into them).
mattjgilbert wrote: We've had about 100 playtest battles submitted in the first round of testing. There will be at least four rounds, probably five. The overall impression is extremely positive and everyone has found the game really fun and easy to play. I've still made tons of changes and edits based on all the feedback though for the things that were wrong, felt off, pointed wrong, confusing in the rules etc.
The next stage of testing begins this weekend and the focus is on the scenarios and the components that feed into them).
I'm one of the playtesters, and have enjoyed the games I've been involved in so far. All 8 factions have lists, but the first four (Enforcers, Forge Fathers, Asterians, and Plague) have had a little more playtesting than the "new" four that were unlocked in the KS campaign (GCPS, Marauders/orx, Veermyn, and Nameless).
The rules are all broadly speaking available online in the various websites and videos that Mantic has put out; no major changes there.
Very broadly speaking, it's excellent. It's fast, which I absolutely love - I played a 1250-point game (about 8-10 units plus 1-2 leaders each side) in about 2.5 hours and it was our first game. It was streamlined, but not in a way that felt hampered my ability to exploit tactics and make meaningful decisions. There's a fair bit of fine-tuning and tinkering to do left, but by and large it feels nearly done. Extra bonus: I get to use all my old wizkids mechwarrior clicky models, especially the piles of infantry units that never got any play, lol!
And I like to think I keep Matt on his toes, with lots of questions and pestering.
You'd never know it with how you're managing the playtesting... You've got like 37 gazillion threads all under control.
With regards to discussions and "issues", sometimes it's unclear (to us) wording, but frequently that's just because I read it too quickly. A few things are taking time to understand, like blast templates, indirect fire, chaining barrages, etc. But I think that might be more a "me" issue than a "game" issue.
We've had a few issues like "unit X is way to OP!" or "unit Y is worthless, why would I ever taken it when I have unit Z as an option"?
From stage 1 to 2 of the playtesting (there are 5 stages planned, each lasting about a month) I do see some things were tweaked on the force lists. I haven't gone over stage 2 rules, but I understand a few things changed there too. I only got in one game in Stage 1, and (fingers crossed) I hope to get in more than one in stage 2...!
Official emails haven’t gone out but I could login and see my pledge.
No new images yet and the gallery is missing details.
Faction specific Pro Acyrl paint sets (4 paints £17 or 6 for £25) have been added but seem to lack colour contents. These normally retail for £4.25 before discounts so no real saving there.
I’m sure they are still working on it and the update will cover more.
I got in a second playtest game, and already the rules and factions (that we played - GCPS and Marauders) felt much tighter. The game was really fun.
I'm guessing that the PM will be open for a long time. It's going to be months and months before they can even think about shipping stuff.... And there are so many previews left to share, before giving folks enough info to make informed choices about what to get.
pancakeonions wrote: I got in a second playtest game, and already the rules and factions (that we played - GCPS and Marauders) felt much tighter. The game was really fun.
Do the factions feel distinct? One thing I was a little concerned about during the campaign was that all the factions seemed roughly equivalent in composition.
Updated my order. Can't wait to play. Alesso Cavatore will attend a famous Italian fair (Play): hope to ask him, if possible, something about the game.
pancakeonions wrote: I got in a second playtest game, and already the rules and factions (that we played - GCPS and Marauders) felt much tighter. The game was really fun.
Do the factions feel distinct? One thing I was a little concerned about during the campaign was that all the factions seemed roughly equivalent in composition.
I haven't played them all, but the concensus across the playtest groups seems yes so far. A big drawn for me was that this was not a "space marine vs. space marine" game, and that we had a diverse array of factions to choose from.
I've played GCPS vs. Nameless, and GCPS vs. Marauders. Each army has a set of special rules and strategic orders at their service that also helps to differentiate the factions, and each faction has access to two "superheavies" which are very distinct from each other. These are big, tough units (think of the smaller titans, perhaps, from LI - not indestructible, but certainly formidable)
Matt G, you'll forgive me for falling back on the tropes but... The GCPS feels very much like the Imperial Guard from 40K. Lots of mediocre foot soldiers who aren't great at anything (and some are actually pretty poor at most stuff...), but access to a diverse array of tools to get the job done. You can't field just foot soldiers if you're playing GCPS, you'll need your Heavy Weapons Teams with their options against armored and flying enemies. You'll need to pick up some armor, to counter enemy units that are armored, and they have a variety of tank that's particularly good against un-armored "softer" targets (i.e., lower armor). You can choose some interesting fliers to either move troops quickly around the board, or destroy softer targets. They have access to different types of Striders, each of which is better against certain targets; but all can do OK against anything. They have an artillery unit, and a fast set of bikes that can zip around the board (if they don't get chewed up by enemy fire!).
The Marauders don't feel much like 40K orks at all. They're more elite mercenaries. Their troops tend to be more expensive than those at the GCPS, and better too. They have a few more faster options, but have access to similar tanks and fliers to the GCPS (in terms of background, they share the same technology base and industrial source as the GCPS, and buy from the same sellers, so some of the units are the same - but there's lots of unique variety too.)
The Nameless were fun. They're totally different from the above two factions (and I really like how their art direction is going), and you might not be too far off if you think of them like Tyranyds. Big ol' monster things. Tended to have better armor, smaller units in terms of bases but more "health" (called resilience in EW), but tended to have worse nerve. This meant that they were hard to kill, but you could often "nerf" them at least a little by pinning them (e.g., firing on them with a pinning weapon) as they often had difficulty shaking off the pin markers. Even things that acted similarly in game were thematically different - "indirect fire" for one of their units was a psychic attack for example. They were cool.
I'm hoping to get more battles in soon, and want to try the Forge Fathers, Plague, and Veer-Myn (ratmen). There's also the Asterians (space elfs) and enforcers (space marines), that hold very loosely to those GW tropes, but with lots of Mantic flavor tossed in.
Got the pledge manager finished. Tried to keep it simple and had the two starter army pledge and just added the smaller terrain set and 4x4 neoprene mat. Seemed an easy way to test the game before adding reinforcements and super heavies. Ended up going with GCPS and Nameless.
In for £1.
So will decide down the line what I am actually doing.
Let them update it and such. Hopefully more info as they work on sculpts and pictures and whatever else.
Probably decide ready for July’s payslip 😁
pancakeonions wrote: I got in a second playtest game, and already the rules and factions (that we played - GCPS and Marauders) felt much tighter. The game was really fun.
Do the factions feel distinct? One thing I was a little concerned about during the campaign was that all the factions seemed roughly equivalent in composition.
I haven't played them all, but the concensus across the playtest groups seems yes so far. A big drawn for me was that this was not a "space marine vs. space marine" game, and that we had a diverse array of factions to choose from.
I've played GCPS vs. Nameless, and GCPS vs. Marauders. Each army has a set of special rules and strategic orders at their service that also helps to differentiate the factions, and each faction has access to two "superheavies" which are very distinct from each other. These are big, tough units (think of the smaller titans, perhaps, from LI - not indestructible, but certainly formidable)
Matt G, you'll forgive me for falling back on the tropes but... The GCPS feels very much like the Imperial Guard from 40K. Lots of mediocre foot soldiers who aren't great at anything (and some are actually pretty poor at most stuff...), but access to a diverse array of tools to get the job done. You can't field just foot soldiers if you're playing GCPS, you'll need your Heavy Weapons Teams with their options against armored and flying enemies. You'll need to pick up some armor, to counter enemy units that are armored, and they have a variety of tank that's particularly good against un-armored "softer" targets (i.e., lower armor). You can choose some interesting fliers to either move troops quickly around the board, or destroy softer targets. They have access to different types of Striders, each of which is better against certain targets; but all can do OK against anything. They have an artillery unit, and a fast set of bikes that can zip around the board (if they don't get chewed up by enemy fire!).
The Marauders don't feel much like 40K orks at all. They're more elite mercenaries. Their troops tend to be more expensive than those at the GCPS, and better too. They have a few more faster options, but have access to similar tanks and fliers to the GCPS (in terms of background, they share the same technology base and industrial source as the GCPS, and buy from the same sellers, so some of the units are the same - but there's lots of unique variety too.)
The Nameless were fun. They're totally different from the above two factions (and I really like how their art direction is going), and you might not be too far off if you think of them like Tyranyds. Big ol' monster things. Tended to have better armor, smaller units in terms of bases but more "health" (called resilience in EW), but tended to have worse nerve. This meant that they were hard to kill, but you could often "nerf" them at least a little by pinning them (e.g., firing on them with a pinning weapon) as they often had difficulty shaking off the pin markers. Even things that acted similarly in game were thematically different - "indirect fire" for one of their units was a psychic attack for example. They were cool.
I'm hoping to get more battles in soon, and want to try the Forge Fathers, Plague, and Veer-Myn (ratmen). There's also the Asterians (space elfs) and enforcers (space marines), that hold very loosely to those GW tropes, but with lots of Mantic flavor tossed in.
thanks for the write-up Pancake Onions! I am thinking of picking up Veermyn and Marauders. do you feel from your experience that would make for satisfying first games that give a proper feel of the system?
Marauders seem like a good choice, because they seem like an all-around strong faction (keep in mind, we're mid-playtest, lots can change). Good army rules, strong units that seem easy to use.
I haven't tried the Veermyn yet, but I think they're more of a horde army with lots of lower cost, lower quality units that you use to overwhelm the enemy. They have sneaky units that can appear all of a sudden (tunnlers that come from underground). But because I haven't yet played them (and because lots can change!), I can't say for sure.
Albertorius wrote: I got the Captain Pledge and I'm seriously thinking on getting a double Captain to get all eight base armies, plus the all-in stl pack.
That's where I am at, except with no access to 3d printing, I may opt for two of every resin support box for all eight armies. I just can't help myself. I urgently wanted to make Legion Imperialis my main game, but a wealth of reasons drove me off... As usual Mantic made the version of a game I ACTUALLY wanted, so I feel compelled to go all in.
Albertorius wrote: I got the Captain Pledge and I'm seriously thinking on getting a double Captain to get all eight base armies, plus the all-in stl pack.
That's where I am at, except with no access to 3d printing, I may opt for two of every resin support box for all eight armies. I just can't help myself. I urgently wanted to make Legion Imperialis my main game, but a wealth of reasons drove me off... As usual Mantic made the version of a game I ACTUALLY wanted, so I feel compelled to go all in.
Me too. Double-captain, plus STL pack, plus the XL terrain pack. Can't wait to build a massive city-scape with all that terrain.
And I applaud your consideration of two of every resin support box. But this begs the question - Why not three?
for everyone who wants ALL the factions in one pledge, next week we'll introduce an 'All-In Pledge' to make this possible.
It will include (*drum roll please*):
Core Armies x8
Reinforcements x8
Super Heavies x16(!)
STL All-In Pack x1
Game Essentials (rules, dice, etc) x1
XL Terrain Pack x1
This ultimate collection will come to a grand total of £950.
new renders - pathfinders could use some more variety in the heads.
LOL... I like how the All-In doesn't even come with the acrylic token sets... of which you're encouraged to buy one per player. :-p
God help me... if the PM is open till at least June 29th, I will probably upgrade to this. My pledge was already $650-ish, and this is a small extra savings for stuff I wanted anyway.
new renders - pathfinders could use some more variety in the heads.
Don't forget how small these guys are going to be. At best most of them will get a blob of flesh paint and a wash, most of the details you aren't even going to see from up close, let alone from tabletop distance. They certainly don't need a dozen different facial expressions.
The mazon labs website is brilliant. Most fun online thing Mantic has done since the easter egg hunt.
No spoilers (other than making sure to watch "funny_cats.mov" in the documents all the way through ), but you definitely want to log in and check it out!
First off, the Nightstalker reapers kit is one of Mantic's very, very best. Top polystyrene casting quality from Archon that is truly as crisp as GW, a great monster design that fits sci-fi as well as it does fantasy, and a load of bits that are endlessly useful for kitbashing, particularly for mutants, aliens, and demons. I love it, and would highly recommend it to anyone.
Which is why I'm disappointed, although not really surprised, to see that Mantic's official port of the Nightstalker line into the Sci-Fi Warpath universe includes not a single new polystyrene sprue. The summer Mazon Labs release is just a bunch of re-used assets with a few additional resin bits and figures thrown in.
the Pacific Rim game that was more popular than a small company could handle, My Little Pony RPG, Highlander boardgame and a medieval themed boardgame that as far as I know was their only non-licensed one
The Highlander game is good fun, some nice minis and features photos from the film. Ofc you have to play with the Queen soundtrack playing
I quite enjoyed the Terminator one too, although the minis were very basic. Don't know if it's still for sale but would probably be good with some of the brilliant print minis you can get now.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: That sure is a choice. Feels more like friends ensuring a nice payday for another friend than a smart business maneuver.
You may be right, but if those there's a reasonable amount of time left on those licenses, it might be a chance for Mantic to pick them up cheaply and all at once.
Of course there's also the question of whether Mantic has the capacity to do much new with them.
You may be right, but if those there's a reasonable amount of time left on those licenses, it might be a chance for Mantic to pick them up cheaply and all at once.
Of course there's also the question of whether Mantic has the capacity to do much new with them.
I love Mantic immensely, which is why I don't want to see them pull a Spartan Games (cursed Halo license?) and spread themselves way too thin. Mantic's catalog is pretty great right now, covers all scales and scopes, and it feels like a good time to focus on growing communities and store presence.
Mantic has already got a board game division working on dice games and things like Umbrella Academy. They just released Dungeon Saga Origins under this division.
Alessio is also working on Epic Warpath with Matt Gilbert.
Well, hard to tell as they showed 1 vs 3, but the first is very static, while 2 of 3 in the other photo clearly show movement, and the third appears to have more of an aiming pose. I'd liken it to original tac marines (3rd Ed era) vs intercessors (not counting the scale changes, just in terms of pose options. Also, weapons appear to show more detail, though hard to tell with the paint job of the original.
Actually, the original PVC Cyphers had a number of dynamic poses.
Did they specify that the new ones will be in HIPS? Or might they do them in resin?
Resin would be a poor idea for these models, as they're very thin and spindly, i.e., they would be prone to breaking.
The original PVC Cyphers are very good models, but in all honesty they are a big pain in the butt to clean up (unless you're one of those blessed folks who don't notice mold lines, in which case, I envy you.). An Archon-produced Cypher kit in HIPS would be very cool.
They really should do the Nameless in HIPS though. A lot of the core units are still in boardgame plastic, not of the same quality as standard Mantic PVC.
Cyphers in hard plastic is very welcome, the original restics were very prone to warping since the limbs and some of the weapons were really thin.
Mantic's current priority seems to be eliminating restic from their product lines and replacing with hard plastic and resin/STL, so this makes a lot of sense.
It will just leave marauders and forgefathers left to sort out to have all 6 initial deadzone factions refreshed.
Plastic ripper suits (a sprue would allow for custom loadouts on these) and a few resins for marauders would work well, maybe a goblin sprue if we're lucky.
With forgefathers, the brokkr units are the obvious pick for hard plastic.
pancakeonions wrote: Funny. So they'll be better to model with (everyone hates resin...) but are essentially very similar looking. Kind of a silly example to show off!
I'd say that models being redone in a better material without looking out of place with the models already in peoples' collection is a really good example to show off, honestly.
Werkrobotwerk wrote: I was really hoping they'd redesign these things to fit more with the marionettes. The lens heads are a much better look.
On the other hand, if they are HIPS, swapping the weapons onto Marionettes shouldn't be too challenging.
we still do
but I have to say if they go for a landing craft/spaceship design or antigrav land-ship there is some potential here
yet the infantry is not good, not sure if it is the combination of 2 people with hands up + tactical rock or something else but this is the worst one for now
anyone else think they should just use the ships from their Warpath universe setting document art for aesthetic guides and ideas?
take this pic for example, some that i suspect was meant to be an enforcer set of ships. they could set up the smaller craft in this pic as the"Drakon" that is the smaller warship of a Enforcer Strike Force, while the bigger ship (the one used as an example of a Mckinley drive ship in fact) as the Wyvern Heavy Cruiser. the Drakon could be your Enforcer super-heavy, with superheavy transport of the flyers and vehicles being the main focus. (after all, most Enforcer stuff has anti-grav, allowing their stuff to be para-dropped.)
and you have this superheavy gunship looking thing for the GCPS army (from pg120 of the setting PDF)
which gives me vibes of the Assault ship from Avatar, a fire support craft with limited transport. (probably the sort of dropship that GCPS detachments would use for entering Deadzones) i suspect this would make more sense for the GCPS armed forces than a hover naval battleship.
ASTERIAN STARTER ARMY: 20 hard plastic Marionettes, 4 hard plastic Support Drones, 6 hard plastic Cyphers, 6 hard plastic Matsudan, 1 resin Cypher Prime, Bases
NIGHTSTALKER STARTER ARMY: 20 hard plastic Scarecrows/Spectres, 10 hard plastic Reapers, 6 hard plastic Butchers, 1 resin Shade, Bases
PLUS: 224-page Command Protocols book, Getting Started Guide, Card Counters, Command Dice Set, D8 Dice Set
I am in for the Matsudan, waited for them since the first teaser a year ago to expand the resin ones
Already have the Dreadball team to make use of the extra weapons in the kit
kodos wrote: I am in for the Matsudan, waited for them since the first teaser a year ago to expand the resin ones
Already have the Dreadball team to make use of the extra weapons in the kit
The set pairing is interesting - I have to give Mantic credit for bringing the weird. On the other hand, it's still mostly models I already have.
Matsudan in hard plastic from Archon look good to me, I could definitely pick up some of those.
For the naysayers, don't overlook the hard plastic Reapers. Casting quality / crisp detail is on par with GW - really! - and if you want to kitbash aliens, mutants, or demons, they're a really useful kit. They're my favorite Mantic release in many years.
I've never liked the Chinese cast Scarecrows / Doppelgangers, unfortunately. Design and casting quality aren't on the same level as the newer Archon releases.
The new Cyphers have just 3 different body types? And two of those poses are mirrored?
Ha! Doubly glad I put all that effort into cleaning and assembling my PVC ones, then. There were about 10 or so unique poses for those.
I like the big mutants, but the guys with talons for feet would just be better with normal feet imo, and the scarecrows don't really fit Sci Fi for me at all, they needed more alteration to make them a proper sci fi version.
The big fat boys on the other side are also okay, but I really hate the design on the elf robots and always have.
So my problem isn't the material but the design choices - for every hit there's a big ol' miss.
I love the Marionette models (and have a tonne of them half assembled that I really need to finish off, one of these days...) and the new cyphers are nice. Without knowing anything about the background, the Matsudan look more than a little out of place in there, though...
Nightstalkers are a mixed bag. I like the genestealers and the big, troll-looking creatures, though.
Da Boss wrote: I like the big mutants, but the guys with talons for feet would just be better with normal feet imo, and the scarecrows don't really fit Sci Fi for me at all, they needed more alteration to make them a proper sci fi version.
The big fat boys on the other side are also okay, but I really hate the design on the elf robots and always have.
So my problem isn't the material but the design choices - for every hit there's a big ol' miss.
Whoever it is at Mantic that is making these design choices really needs to just let go of the reigns and let someone who knows what they are doing take over. I get it, there is a style of silly sci-fi that you adore, but it clearly is not everyone's cup of tea and aiming for it is probably driving away more customers than it's pulling in.
Zethnar wrote: ... and aiming for it is probably driving away more customers than it's pulling in.
I'm curious as to how you would arrive at that conclusion, honestly.
Keep in mind that complaints tend to be louder than praise, particularly online. And it's really, really easy to assume that complaints that we agree with are the majority opinion.
Mantic's overall style has remained fairly consistent since they started. I would expect that if it wasn't selling, they would have changed it by now. The fact that they haven't, and are still in business, suggests that there must be a market out there for their style. And no, it's not going to be to everyone's tastes... you'll never achieve that, regardless of how good your designs are.
I am a big fan of their Asterians. I have lots of marionettes, as well as some resin Matsudan and restic Cyphers. If I had the funds, I would buy these new plastics on top of them.
What is best in my opinion is ruleset. They aim to offer easy, fast but at the same time tactically deep games with few erratas. And they avoid tons of supplements that makes the whole rule corpus a mess - unlike someone else do.
I've got loads of Mantic stuff - all the stuff I have and think is good:
- Fantasy Undead
- Fantasy Orcs (Krudger on Winged Slasher is top notch)
- Fantasy Dwarves
- Forgefathers
- Marauder vehicles
- Corporation Mules
- Veer-myn Tunnellers (and Veer-myn infantry are nice but I don't have any)
- Basilean Pheonix
- Dungeon Saga (original, I think it's great)
- Nightstalkers for Fantasy - I think they fit in fantasy pretty well, I have a Vanguard set.
- Ogres for Fantasy (tiny legs and all)
So I'm not a mantic hater at all. I just do not like some of the design choices, especially in the Sci Fi range, and I don't like some of the more computer gamey designs in the Fantasy line.
I hate being a Mantic hater... But they have yet to make a lot of model kits I really want to buy. I recently got their Wolverine tanks, and those were loads of fun to build and paint.
The quality of their models is getting better, but it's still the asthetic I'm not in love with.
It's OK, I still have fun playing (mostly) Mantic rules with (mostly) Games Workshop models, lol
Hah, the Wolverine tanks are Archon designs which Mantic licensed!
I think it comes down to a lack of consistent art direction. You can end up with individual models or units which are great due to strong concepts or a gifted sculptor, but still doesn't all feel like a single army with a single vision behind it. But then you either do the Dropzone Commander route of having a single auteur's vision (risky), or make art direction a distinct job from production (expensive). And I really do think the quality on balance really has improved over time.
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whoa.
) I should have quipped that is probably 138 more than Legions had..
