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I don't think there is any solid evidence a Waaagh! is incapable of prolonged combat whilst a strong warlord still leads the Orks. A siege is still plenty of fighting after all.

The siege of Broucheroc in the novel 15 hours has been ongoing for 10 years. As mentioned in Imperial Armour volume 8*, the siege of Tallarax lasted 3 years and the subsequent siege of Forsarr lasted 8 years. The sieges of Hive Infernus and Hive Volcanus during the Third War for Armageddon have been continuing for over a year (although Ghaz is obviously an exceptional Warlord).

On the whole, orks actually seem quite happy to dig in and throw up defences for a prolonged scrap.

*More on this later once I've had time to parse the information.

On the contrary, based on Ork reproduction rate after a year as stated in 3rd codex, that's when the orky numbers will start staggering.

Prolonged warfare will mostly advantage the orks in my view: numbers, and they're settlements and supply line will be up and ready.
And yeah, sieges can be totally vicious and to the taste of the orks.

The issue for the orks is if they are defeated repeatedly, as no scrap and rising tensions will probably make the waaagh crumble.

It’s kind of the Skinner Principle (heh).

Orks make it a competition. Who can knock the most bits off the walls. Can the Speed Freeks get up enough speed to go up and over the walls. Who can bag the most Sally units when they make a break for it. Who can stick around the longest before being driven back. If anyone argues about who got closest this time? Have a fight with them!

The Ork mindset is quite something. Everything is a laugh, including your mates being blown up. Provided whatever is going on repeats in ever grander ways, they’re pretty satisfied.

A long drawn out siege is a camping holiday with loads of good fights, either against the foe or each other.

So long as there’s explosions and plenty of Dakka going on at all hours? Orks are gonna be pretty happy.

Meks also do their bit for the distraction, building Gargants and other siege engines. Those need scrap, which means the Orks have even more to do, even if it’s just hauling back wrecks of their own stuff for recycling.

Essentially, when you’ve a few hundred thousand or more Orks in the same locale? It’s really, really hard for them to be bored for long.

I agree. Boredom is quite overstated by is players as opposed to how it is in the lore.

However, the orks can be brought low by internal strifes (vying for who's the next boss)... or I guess no longer being supplied.

That means, if the scrap flow goes thin, they probably won't be able to maintain industry and logistics and while they won't break because of it on a moral collapse, they'll be beaten if they lack the tools to fight properly a large scale campaign. This can in itself be the reason for internal strife to break because war fed nobz will maybe start thinking the boss isn't that tough, and he could well be better off if he were to lead the waaagh...

But breaking ork logistics in the long term must be hard.
As we established, yes, it can fall apart to tensions, ambitions, or ponctual mismanagement.

But in the long term? Ork slaves are plenty and reproduce at tremendous rates.

Their means of stocking and transportation are rugged and rough, able to withstand any conditions and get the loot coming up, and the stuff coming down, in streams.

And, since they are essentially a mix of instinctive and economical networks of said loot and stuff coming back and forth, backed but said rugged gear, they will no doubt be re-established in no time flat.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.

If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.

Bit late to respond but it's almost certainly this, rather than some hithero completely unmentioned (and unimplied) situation where ork spores feed off of warp energy.

If the Hulks were subjected to multiple large-scales attacks with time in between them to 'recoup' then it's likely just a situation of stress or combat induced spore spreading / ork generation during an attack, followed by a period of time during which those orks come into being without immediately being killed, then another attack which triggers a much larger-scale spore release and ork creation wave, another time of stability, ect.

We have precedent for this exact thing in real-life ecology via forests. Forest fires are beneficial, clearing away debris and triggering a large-scale period of growth within a forest itself. Granted this applies to forests which are naturally allowed to burn and grow on their own, rather than those which are heavily over grown via human meddling.

Very fair points by Haighus, Maréchal and the Doc re: sieges and the propensity of orks to be bored.

Obviously we could say there's good fights and bad fights - if lots of the ladz are getting picked off without even getting a sniff of action first, then that's not going to create a positive and productive work environment. However, it's probably right to say that the fluff consistently depicts even standard boyz as being pretty creative within their narrow range of interests, so sooner or later some enterprising young greenskin's gonna figure out a way to neutralise this problem (most likely in the most ridiculous fashion possible, but if it works - it works!)

Ultimately I guess the point is that orks are like any other armed force - victory is what motivates them, and if there aren't victories then there'll be trouble - but the orky concept of "victory" is, to say the least, rather different to what a human soldier might define it as. I guess that's what gives them staying power, and makes them a legitimate threat to other factions as opposed to just a very loud nuisance.

I’m sure command changes hand fairly frequently during sieges, as one or other of the Big Bosses gets fed up with failure, and decides they should be in charge.

But, provided it’s not the Warboss or Warlord, just his underlings? The whole of thing probably holds together. With the resulting scrap over leadership being another source of amusement, provided you don’t get a domino effect of challenges which absolutely could collapse the siege.

This is why Orks are so successful, despite their brutish exterior. They don’t just like violence, they require it and thrive on it. So they’re really difficult to take on, because you need to be able to apply constant pressure against their attacks.

The Imperial Guard and Tyranids pretty much go the body-for-body route. As would Necrons now I think about it.

Marines, Craftworlders? Decapitation strikes aimed at crippling the command structure, letting Orks be Orks and tear themself down from there.

Tau? Probably a mix of the two to be honest, but with a preference for decapitation.

This is why the Imperium in favourable circumstances are so successful against Waaaghs! Guard pin them in place, the more elite forces breakdown Orky Kommand, the Guard then take over again to prevent the squabbling remnants linking up under whomever comes out on top.

All much easier said than done of course, but that’s the general theory. And indeed why Ullanor was such a crushing defeat, one sufficient to see the Orky menace be relegated to little during the ensuing Heresy. One could even argue had the Heresy not occurred, the success of Ullanor might’ve seen Orks a manageable if constant threat to the day, with no one Waaagh! ever really getting much steam before being shattered.

Poor eldars that can't pin them in place at all!

Important to highlight once again: decapitating the waaagh gains you only temporary respite. Soon enough, a new boss will step out and take things back in hand.

But, especially when you enjoy widely different and combined forces as the imperium does, you can use that time well to inflict actual, substantial damages to the waaagh, either by such crippling losses caused by attacks benefiting from the turmoil, and/or shattering the orks means of productions/logistical routes

In the end, I think orks are a bit like Tyranids. The warmachinenthat is a waaagh is intricate and rugged, and regenerative to such an incredible extent that anything short of utter victory will actually fail to stop them and mostly remove their threat: armaggedon for instance was not a total victory. And indeed, the Ork menace was only postponed.

The upside to such a strike is, right place right time, you not only take out the Warboss, but the senior Nobz as well, further muddying the line of succession and causing a greater impact.

Plus, the bigger the Waaagh! the bigger the collapse, as word filters down Da Boss Iz Ded. So where a Warband may be able to bounce back fairly quickly, the more Warbands are involved, the more in-fighting occurs, because the stakes are higher.

Yes you may find one Boss rising quite quickly, but if they’re injured in the process, they’re exposed to challenges of their own, and so the house of cards falls.

Of course, unless you have some means to keep up the overall pressure and keep fracturing the whole down into ever smaller contingents, you’ve just kicked the can down the road.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Of course, unless you have some means to keep up the overall pressure and keep fracturing the whole down into ever smaller contingents, you’ve just kicked the can down the road.

That's precisely what I tried to express, but better said

Thinking about this btw: with necrons litteraly able to teleport in absurd and OP manners, how do anybody's logistics and campand chains actually survive?

Do we assume Ork waaaghs of size could be too big to fall easily that way counting on its ability to remap and reorganise instinctively? For a lesser tribe however there's like no way they'll survive that?

Just thinking and spinning the thread towards "how do Ork logistics deal with X problem"

I suspect, but can’t prove, the bigger the Waaagh!, the more it suffers from the loss of the Warlord.

See, to become Warlord you need to break a lot of skulls, absorbing other Warbands into your own. And by no means does that mean your previous rivals are killed. Some will be of course, but by no means all/

Then, at a certain point, Warbands will begin to join of their own volition, because wherever you go, there’s always a really good fight.

Remove that Warlord and his immediate cronies (who tend to stick together, especially for really big fights), and those who’d been defeated on the way will chance their hand. Those that joined up willingly might just go their own way, or join in the fun.

Essentially, bigger the Waaagh! the more would-be replacement Warbosses there are, and the bigger the infighting is going to be. And it’s not as if anyone is forming an orderly queue. It’s a free-for-all pagga between anyone who wants to be the next Warboss, and indeed any Ork that just doesn’t want to be left out of the fight. Which is all of them. The Boyz won’t stand a chance of emerging on top of course, but it’s still a great excuse to beat up those gitz over there that always think they’re dead good.

I think both of the war for octarius, where the Tyranid ripped the balance and almost won by killing off big boss skarfang, and that was a mighty waaagh.

And even more convincing, under mogrok's kunnin plans on Alaric, even though he was poised to replace grukk, the death of the original warboss sent the waaagh in such disarray that stein actually thought it could be defeated at that point by reducing Klan's one by one.

But sadly, what we lack to actually prove that point is examples of lower scale waaaghs or Ork invasions in the canon lore. Anyone's got any?

One thing in ork logistics is the boredom- but rmember in the Ghaz book, he made it a contest of who could take the "not fighting" to work and get off Urk and into the stars. He evn stood outside and didn't do much of anything to show he could be stoic. Course Ghaz is the Profit of Gork n' Mork, and any other warlord wouldn't have the smarts/ stamina to pull what he did off.
Makari's viion of the great green also shows the natural ork progression: Squiglets, squigs, snots eating each other and anything around; grots using materials from the latter to mak crude tools and scavenge wherever they are; then orks
- it'd most likely be wildboyz without any other invervention- then specialist Madboyz like Painboyz, meks, etc; and as they get older/ more orks, nobs then a warlord. By that time the gestalt Waagh! energy should be enough to allow them to make things up to regular orky standards.
My headcannon for Waagh! knowledge is like every ork has a page of the Encyclopedia Britannica in thier head- you need more to get a working volume- barring Madboyz like Talker who seem to have a greater innate understanding of the psychic resonances. So, you need quite a lot of orks to have the ability to make better and better things. But, it'd be faster than 'Oomies with no previous knowledge to go from stick and sinew tools to say, making a suit of mega-armor. Most races write things down and build off of previous knowledge. Orks start over time and again, and have the knowledge readily available, so no need to think of the past.

It also may or may not bare relevance, but in Dawn of War the Orks got materials for buildings dumped into a pile- but in reality, they could just send Roks or any other ships down and Boom! Instant fortress!

Loved how it was portrayed in Dow.

Can't remember where it was that they actually talked about the bigger the mob the better the meks perform.

Ork society does seem to follow quite strict patterns.

If isolated, you get what would be called Wildboyz and Ferals. Usually quite a low technological base, with a reliance on Squigs and Pigs, with Pigdoks being the first Oddboy to manifest.

But, as the tribe grows? Doks, Meks, Painboyz and Weirdboyz begin to manifest.

And, Orks being Orks? It seems the bigger the tribe, the more Oddboyz (with certain clans manifesting them in different concentrations). And the more Oddboyz, the more creative each becomes, quite possibly in the pursuit of being the best in their field.

So once again we see competition being the driving force behind Orky society. A single Mek is perfectly capable, but just as not creative or I suppose ambitious as one with a rival, or multiple rivals.

This may be in part due to labour hours and limited scale of projects.

For a silly sci-fi species of football ‘ooligans, there’s a lot to them!

In a way it's arguable that Orks simply will their supply chain into force of being. The requirement is there for dakka and choppin' and so something has to happen to facilitate that.

I've noticed a couple of people saying yes Orks might have industry but nothing logistical but I don't think it's right to differentiate the two. Industry exists for Orks and so a supply of materiel must occur in order to do what they want.

I don't know if this is the same in other countries but here in the UK some graphic designer decided that every freight company needs their own daft little slogan like "revitalising supply chainsor "Freight for the Future!" as if this isn't how humans have been moving things for thousands of years.

If anyone starts making some Orky logistics corps I hope they add in some similar graffiti

I agree. Industry is a part of logistics, only the farthest to the rear.

Ork society is Ork industry.

Even logistical vehicles are combat ready. Even a leisure vehicle is….combat ready.

Fungus Beer can be, and often is, fuel. Whether for a vehicle, a Burna, or a Boy.

I thought warmachines WERE the leisure vehicles

Orks seem to get a lot of free rides

Simplifying it horribly, to support industrialized warfare you need: raw materials (gathered by grots and slaves); manufacturing facilities (designed by instinct, constructed by operated by grots and slaves); food (squigs, supplemented by whatever else they feel like eating); Combat troops (orks themselves).

For humans all of the above is founded on extensive educational systems to enable generalists to become specialists. This needs its own set of logistics to make work. Orks do this instinctively as well. The only education I'm aware of is the old Stormboyz Corps stuff. Everything else apparently occurs to the relevant oddboyz, supplemented by tinkering. Orks don't have a species-wide method of disseminatino of information, so they must all be programmed with some level of baseline knowledge that they can start to draw on when the right stimuli is provided.

Basically, anywhere that needs extensive effort gets hand-waved away by "oh they just do that by instinct" and/or "there are so many of them". And this latter point is also based on suitable space magic that ensures that they can keep replacing massive casualty rates at all levels through internecine warfare, casualties from external parties, and using their own extended species as a food source. They are an even more effective bioweapon than tyranids basically.

Yup! Free rides all the way. Some of them are even Red Wunz!

And such an objectively happy species, even if their idea of a good time is alien to us weedy ‘Umies.

Suffice to say if I could be anything in 40K? It’d be an Ork!

I'm guessing the old Ones wish they turned an "off" button on the Krorks- or possibly they knew the 'Nids would eat and/ or strengthen them (See: Octavius War).

What's great about squigs is not only their individual uses + food, but the fact they are themselves mobile. Other armies have to worry about shipping rations/ oil/ tools. Squigs ship themselves and follow orks around- whether they are wanted or not. But, a part of it does feel like the Piers Anthony Xanth novels, where the convenience is a bit too uncanny. IE: "Oh, I'm hungry- I need to find a Pie Tree!"

Eh….ish?

The 3rd/4th/whenevs Necron Codex described, if I recall correctly, the new species raised up by the Old Ones as Rush Jobs.

We don’t know how far into that epoch spanning war the Krorks were created. And definitely do not know Krorks = Orks. At all.

But, if they were? The Old Ones were likely powerful they didn’t actually need an “off” switch, as they could just snuff their creations out by a “Big Deff” switch

Like how 40k at least used to master the art of stating stuff in your face but not stating it either so you can fill in the blanks and go wild.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm on duty doc so I haven't got my necron 3rd edition codex to check this time

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Eh….ish?

And definitely do not know Krorks = Orks. At all.

In "Engine of Mork" (Which, honestly I haven't myself read and/or gotten the Audible) it's very heavily inferred with the Madboy "Talker". They were trying to splice some Eldar tech into a gun or such and then:
“Caution must be taken when interfacing ionic technologies, especially those that originate with alien species whose consciousness wavelengths are incompatible with the psychically motivated etheric generators of the krork,” said Talker.

But, Talker isn't aware of what he's saying most of the time. Still- he's pretty much tapping into the gestalt Kr/Ork knowledge database. I DID hear him in Prophets of the Waagh! and much of the same, where he spouts out highly niche knowledge... then goes back to calling a grot "A tiny green Oomie". -Defiantly not a grot..

At worst? Common ancestor.

In fact I think I prefer Orks not being a devolved form of Krork, but being to Krork as homo neandethalis to homo sapien sapien. A branch or step along the evolutionary tree. And one when the big scrap was over and done with, proved adept at survival and adaptation, whilst remaining well removed from the intended product.

Yeah, never been overly keen on the idea that Krork were some kind of advanced ork myself - especially given virtually everything we've read in the fluff about the "modern" orks indicates they're admirably suited for the carnage of the 41st millennium, and ESPECIALLY because it's led to some of the most insufferable clickbait youtube video titles in the 40k sphere.

As Doc says, to me the "common ancestor" idea seems most fitting - perhaps the Krork and the Orks were similar efforts at creating a warrior-race to serve as a bulwark against the Necrons, with one proving ultimately more survivable than the other. Obviously it's never going to be confirmed either way, so your mileage may vary, but I guess that's what I'd prefer.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Suffice to say if I could be anything in 40K? It’d be an Ork!

I had no idea!


Stepping outside the fluff for a second, the Ork evolution/biomechanics are also a massive bit of special pleading to allow a race with a chilly room temperature IQ to move through space and have advanced technology.

Even the brightest of the mad meks and weirdboys are actually pretty daft, they just know things.

Which is fine, and the fact that the orks are the way they are is one reason (he said, daring to cross the threads) that some sort of coexistence is ludicrous given 40k's background. Why would orks not fight?

I personally don't mind the orks being devolved from the kroks, I like the idea of the galaxy being really built on the fuming ruins of the war in heaven ya Di ya Di ya.

Why would the orky not fight... 'ard one. I'd bet on the idea that orks are not stupid either and know taking advantage of someone or something to at least some degree, or restrain themselves from proper wars or too much internal brawls as long as the boss says there's not ready to go into battle yet. As in, this is an urge they have and they ultimately need war to thrive, but their not yet Khorne berserkers. Sorta. Kinda.

Yep- agai, I refer to the Ghaz book when Makari says there's a word in Grotspeak that Orks don't know: Shmeckenundshcnicht (or thereabouts) that means "save now, eat later". To an ork, not doing something NOW is anathema whether it's eating, fighting, krumping, going to the drops, etc. But- Greenskin kultur is just that: both Orks and Grots. Orks are the brutal but kunnin, grots are kunnin but brutal, Gork vs. Mork. It's klans like the Blood Axes, who do most un-orky things like diplomacy or sneaking that are shunned because they've got too much Mork in them. Likewise, the Deathskulls are seen as a bunch of weedy thieves who only see thier flashy bits in the hands of others- and fight to rectify this situation. Again, Deathskulls act more like grots in this manner and have more (Obvious blue) Mork kunnin and luck.

While Makari was in the Great Green seeing the vision, he also witnessed huge giant Orks, that may or may not be the Krorks- but noticed in current times, orks can get big- but never big enough to come close to the past giant selves. It's like the "ethnic crabs" joke:
You have to put (insert racial ethnicity here) crabs in a pot with a heavy lid on. Because when it gets hot, they'll try to help at least one get out. But you can leave the lid off (insert other racial ethnicity here) because if one tries to get out, they all drag it back down.
The orks are currently the 2nd type, but if Ghaz and Makari have their way, they could unite the Orks and perhaps Ghaz will get as big/ powerful as at least one of the Beasts that Vulkan fought.

Not only is the ramshackle/ Mad max like diesel-punk look endearing in the orks, but also remember- they are the only race in WH40K who is actually having fun!
Humans/Necrons/Eldar/Leagues of Votann: fighting to survive after a marked decline in culture and galactic power.
T'au: Dealing with their auxiliaries and Farsight enclaves, plus struggling to survive in a vast galaxy- without long-range warp travel.
Kroot: Would be happier if the meat stopped fighting and let them eat you.
Chaos: Enslaved to dark powers, channeling emotions and feelings of other sentient beings.
Tyranids: Eating. There may not even be such a thing as complex emotions to the Hive Mind.

As for other niche races, I got the sense in the Last Chancers novel when they infiltrated a Tau world that other xenos are more like refugees, and just try to get along vs. the other bigger galactic powers.