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There is definitely a strong argument that losing in style matters. 2nd Ed also allowed for chain reactions which could turn a game around.

For instance, during a multiplayer game (Sunday at GW, everyone field everything) I once blasted a turret off a tank (Predator maybe? Might’ve been an Immolator. We’re talking 25 years ago so memory hazy) which landed on a Dreadnought. Dreadnought was staggered back into the midst of a SoB squad, and was blown up the same turn, taking out the SoB squad.

Likewise I’ve had my Land Raider (only one in the shop!) not just taken out by an Orky Smasha Gun (lifta-droppa), but dropped square onto a Devastator squad, squishing the lot of them.

And this is why I’m desperate to get back into 2nd Ed gaming. It’s big, it’s daft, it’s completely silly and I’m a slag for it.

Where abouts are you in the UK Mad Doc? We have a regular 2nd Ed group in Essex, for all the turret flinging fun you could ever need. Very relaxed games and no model elitism either.

I’m down in Folkestone.

Zenithfleet wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
The Axis and Allies nerds figured out some slick gambits, and MB changed the damn rules because it's GLOBAL WAR, not a tennis game where the first ace wins.

Ah, Axis and Allies.

My first and only game of the original--well, either the 1981 or 1984 version, I can't remember--was against two other players. I was Japan and had no idea what I was doing. But I can speak some Japanese, so at least I brought some authenticity to the proceedings.

Early in the game I randomly rolled the aeroplane distance upgrade (supercharged engines or something). I promptly started attacking America directly, from the far side of the Pacific. By the time we had to pack up, I had launched a land invasion of the United States.

Didn't last long before my units were surrounded and overwhelmed ... but good god it was worth it for the disbelief on the American player's face. He was an A&A veteran and had never seen that happen before. Neither had the spectators at the table. Beginner's luck is hilarious.

Yeah, Axis & Allies ends precisely one way, its just a question of whether Hitler and Tojo (Mussolini? Who's he?) get crushed now or later.

I've seen some cool alternate rules online where the Axis get black magic to turn things around. Wonder if I cn find them...

a key part of doing something successfully in a table top game, as with life, is lacking the knowledge that its "impossible"

leopard wrote:
a key part of doing something successfully in a table top game, as with life, is lacking the knowledge that its "impossible"

Or attempting the long-odds your opponent wrote off. Because to assume low chance is no chance is tempting The Dice Gods. And as the Wizards of Unseen University have calculated, million to one chances work nine times out of ten.

In 3rd-6th Ed I popped more than a few tanks in my time with some Bolt Pistols to the rear armour.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

leopard wrote:
a key part of doing something successfully in a table top game, as with life, is lacking the knowledge that its "impossible"

Or attempting the long-odds your opponent wrote off. Because to assume low chance is no chance is tempting The Dice Gods. And as the Wizards of Unseen University have calculated, million to one chances work nine times out of ten.

In 3rd-6th Ed I popped more than a few tanks in my time with some Bolt Pistols to the rear armour.

and it is a truly glorious thing to behold

not the tank going woof, the look on your opponents face

bit like when Gretchin turn the tide of the battle

Definitely. And a lot of the time, those pistols didn’t have a great deal else to do, mostly being on the board because they’re standard equipment,

Likewise in 2nd Ed, I had occasional Great Success with Guard squads shouldering their Lasguns, and choosing to pelt the enemy with massed Frag Grenades. Due to range (Sx2+2”) it was highly situational. But when that situation cropped up, it was definitely worth it. And thanks to being so situational, an option your opponent could easily forget existed.

its why my first 40k army was Imperial Guard, there is something about just ordinary bods in an insane universe just getting on with the job and just occasionally not ending up on the menu

Guard are absolutely the heroes of the day.

Whilst the butt of many in and out of setting jokes? They’re the ones truly holding the line. And for the most part, they’re just mooks like you or I, given a Lasgun and training then sent off against the unfathomably horrific foes of a hostile universe.

And whilst the butcher’s bill is almost always staggering? They do win, and win the majority of their battles. If they didn’t, The Imperium would’ve fallen millennia ago.

All this reminds me a bit of my second game of 40k. Early 8th edition, so I'm not a grumpy grognard. But the game was extremely close. My guard had only the sergeant left. Everyone else has died or fled (hurry lame 8th edition moral rules).
Two objectives were on the center line of the board, one held by my guardsman, the other held by my opponents last remaining sister of battle and 1HP rhino.

The Gambit: I could either remain in the objective, even move into cover and with a little luck survive my opponents shooting for a draw.
Or I could move 6", and shoot my laspistol on the rhino. I would be outside of the objective with no chance at winning the game, if I couldn't kill the rhino and Battlesister. With a laspistol with one shot.

You all can bet my Guardsman sergeant got a hefty promotion after killing the rhino, letting it explode and the Battlesister getting blown to bits next to it. Incredible unlikely but man this was the story at the club the next weeks.

I do miss the smaller games of using whatever few models I had. Now, if I want to field all my space Marines we have to play apocalypse on the ground as no table can field all the tanks I own (thanks HH plastic tanks)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Guard are absolutely the heroes of the day.

Whilst the butt of many in and out of setting jokes? They’re the ones truly holding the line. And for the most part, they’re just mooks like you or I, given a Lasgun and training then sent off against the unfathomably horrific foes of a hostile universe.

And whilst the butcher’s bill is almost always staggering? They do win, and win the majority of their battles. If they didn’t, The Imperium would’ve fallen millennia ago.

The 2nd ed. IG was pretty damn scary in skilled hands. One of my housemates (who helped get me into the game) had done a stint as a tank driver/gunner, and his forces were built not on cool weirdness but solid modern doctrine. He always had overwatch for his forward elements, always took spotters for the barrage, kept armor in the off-board reserve, etc.

I didn't get into the Guard until 3rd and it was just very much rules exploits on exploits. Reminded me of playing the Empire during Herohammer. Take sentinels for pre-game "free move." Take an assassin so you can move one enemy unit before the game starts. Use oddball armor selections to min-max special rules (especially the new sponson/pillbox nonsense).

Getting back into 2nd glorious because the IG ran how it was meant to at long last.

Kids these days have no knowledge of actual platoon-level combat. They think WW I was guys running around trenches with steampunked Broomhandles and prototype Bergmanns. World War II was killing werewolves in castles.

What made 2nd work wasn't just the weirdness, it was that it was layered on a pretty solid, realistic and intuitive set of core rules.

My daughter was talking about how many hours she had put into a console game and I was reminded how many hours I would put into a board game.

Nothing like trying to do a ten-year scenario in Empires in Arms or Imperium Romanum II. Kids today don't have that level of boredom/patience.

Kids back then didn’t either. Ten years? That’s extraordinary.

We had a hex and chit WWII games where if you wanted to play both the Europe and Pacific theaters in a combined game (they were separate boxes) the suggested play time was listed as “one summer”

Those old hyper detailed games were not shy about eating your time.

Video games are nice and log your hours for you. I can’t even estimate how much time I spent playing Car Wars. And while a huge chunk was rolling around shooting things, an even larger part was tweaking car designs. On paper with a pencil. Nothing as fancy as a computer to help…

 Nevelon wrote:
We had a hex and chit WWII games where if you wanted to play both the Europe and Pacific theaters in a combined game (they were separate boxes) the suggested play time was listed as “one summer”

World in Flames by Australian Design Group, maybe? I still have that. The full WWII scenario starts with the line: "Welcome to 50 hours of gaming pleasure..."

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
We had a hex and chit WWII games where if you wanted to play both the Europe and Pacific theaters in a combined game (they were separate boxes) the suggested play time was listed as “one summer”

World in Flames by Australian Design Group, maybe? I still have that. The full WWII scenario starts with the line: "Welcome to 50 hours of gaming pleasure..."

I didn’t own it (it was my friend’s) and it was like 30+ years ago. Could have been. It’s labeled in my brain as “WW2: <blank> theater of operations” with European/Pacific versions. We never did the combined version, but did have it set up on his dining room table and played over weeks/months.

I think it’s worth keeping in mind that in the wider world at that time, nothing offered the same time investment opportunity as such games and TTRPG.

Early computer games? Yeah you could play them for hours, but the games could be completed in 15-20 minutes. And outside of the arcade and a relative few console games, not multiplayer.

Folk today may look at such games and the associated time investment and scoff. But we see the same thing, just shifted to MMORPG games. Also our single player type games have gotten larger and more involved. I’ve easily sunk 200 hours into Tears of the Kingdom, and at least double, maybe triple that into Fallout 4 and Skyrim. Without ever really considering myself a “gamer” as such.

Whilst it’s been a long time since I was active in TTWG? It will always be my first love. Social aspect, crafty aspect, clevers aspect. All lovely, all super relaxing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, for my next trick? A self-grump!

For reasons I cannot properly explain, I am massively, massively snobbish when it comes to non-official expansions and rules. At least outside of agreed tweaks and house rules in a campaign.

I think it may come from having had a WD subscription since I was tiny (well, the paper shop delivered one every month), and that being a time before t’internet. So pretty much all my gaming knowledge and education came straight from the horse’s mouth. Because there was no other easily accessible source.

Add in some school friends with very…..liberal ideas about balance making home brew Codexes (including one which was Just Space Marines, but with Wolf Guard style Terminators, and Imperial Guard style pre-game bombardment!) and I’ve always been massively overly sceptical about unofficial rules.

Which is silly.

The reason why wargamers in the 80's were either teens or retired was because they were the only ones with the time to play wargames!

Now, in order to expand the market they have tried to streamline the games so people with lives can play them too? Unfair!

Speaking of the early days, Trish Carden has a FB page, and as well as her current projects she throws up older ones and photos from the earliest days of Citadel and Marauder Miniatures.

Seeing the early day photos is genuinely bonkers. Because we’re seeing an honest to goodness niche, grass roots nerd cottage industry, which we now know grew into something of a cultural juggernaut, worth more to the UK’s annual economy than its entire fishing industry!

It’s almost a ludicrous proposal than in what, less than 40 years, it could go from a handful of happy nerds in a tiny office where everyone did anything to this international company which along the way, redefined the entire nature of the war gaming market.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Kids back then didn’t either. Ten years? That’s extraordinary.

No, it's ten years within the game. Monthly turns, so 120 turns to complete the scenario. Comparable to a solo console game if you binged on it.

However, you couldn't truly binge because after a while your brain would be exhausted with the calculations and looking up the various rules mechanics. Also: playing seven factions simultaneously.

Proper grognard complaint time...

As you get older your body starts to have issues. Wear and tear so that game you can't wait to play has to be cancelled because your back is borked. Incredibly frustrating and depressing.. Young uns take bending over for dice for granted. Grognards start to resemble mantic ghouls.

Yo7 wrote:
Proper grognard complaint time...

As you get older your body starts to have issues. Wear and tear so that game you can't wait to play has to be cancelled because your back is borked. Incredibly frustrating and depressing.. Young uns take bending over for dice for granted. Grognards start to resemble mantic ghouls.

I've taken to buying high contrast dice so I can read the numbers/pips. No more buying speckled jade dice or other "cool" looking dice with patterns which camouflage the pips. Definitely no more low contrast like black with dark green numbers for the Cthulhu Mythos aesthetic: now dark blue with LARGE white numbers, or red with LARGE yellow pips, thank you.

The grognards of my youth might have had big bellies, but they were surprisingly strong. Possibly due to the fact that miniatures were lead, and the tote cases were custom made from 1/8th inch plywood with metal hinges and hasps. And they'd bring in two full corps: 180 25mm Infantry, 40 cavalry, and 9 guns with 18-27 crew. At fifteen I could only manage my single corps. Of course, that was all I owned as well.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There is definitely a strong argument that losing in style matters. 2nd Ed also allowed for chain reactions which could turn a game around.

For instance, during a multiplayer game (Sunday at GW, everyone field everything) I once blasted a turret off a tank (Predator maybe? Might’ve been an Immolator. We’re talking 25 years ago so memory hazy) which landed on a Dreadnought. Dreadnought was staggered back into the midst of a SoB squad, and was blown up the same turn, taking out the SoB squad.

Likewise I’ve had my Land Raider (only one in the shop!) not just taken out by an Orky Smasha Gun (lifta-droppa), but dropped square onto a Devastator squad, squishing the lot of them.

And this is why I’m desperate to get back into 2nd Ed gaming. It’s big, it’s daft, it’s completely silly and I’m a slag for it.

I had a game where I shot a tempest tank and the turret launched off and landed on the avatar killing him. I had another instance where I shot an ork biker unit and several of the orks scattered into my unit killing my devastators. Another game I remember Jones was acting strangely... and a number of my imperial guard were just killed by Jones exploding. 2nd edition was a lot of fun!!!!

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:

Yo7 wrote:
Proper grognard complaint time...

As you get older your body starts to have issues. Wear and tear so that game you can't wait to play has to be cancelled because your back is borked. Incredibly frustrating and depressing.. Young uns take bending over for dice for granted. Grognards start to resemble mantic ghouls.

I've taken to buying high contrast dice so I can read the numbers/pips. No more buying speckled jade dice or other "cool" looking dice with patterns which camouflage the pips. Definitely no more low contrast like black with dark green numbers for the Cthulhu Mythos aesthetic: now dark blue with LARGE white numbers, or red with LARGE yellow pips, thank you.

The grognards of my youth might have had big bellies, but they were surprisingly strong. Possibly due to the fact that miniatures were lead, and the tote cases were custom made from 1/8th inch plywood with metal hinges and hasps. And they'd bring in two full corps: 180 25mm Infantry, 40 cavalry, and 9 guns with 18-27 crew. At fifteen I could only manage my single corps. Of course, that was all I owned as well.

Dice trays.

I never used this back in the day. We just rolled the dice on the tabletop, and if one hit the floor, no problem.

Now? I'm very averse to getting down on all fours and crawling in pursuit of wayward dice. So we use box lids to contain them.

Yo7 wrote:
Proper grognard complaint time...

As you get older your body starts to have issues. Wear and tear so that game you can't wait to play has to be cancelled because your back is borked. Incredibly frustrating and depressing.. Young uns take bending over for dice for granted.

Tell me about it.
I've got knee damage that makes standing around the shops 4' tall tables for 2-3+ hours difficult to untenable. Some days the left knee's relatively fine. Other days.... Even when it's giving me problems, walking about is often doable (say trekking through the grocery store.). Just not standing about on it for long periods.


Fortunately the shop got a mix of table heights & I can almost always claim one where we can sit while playing/between turns.

ccs wrote:
Fortunately the shop got a mix of table heights & I can almost always claim one where we can sit while playing/between turns.

One of the oft-overlooked virtues of the IGO-UGO turn sequence is that the non-moving player has ample time to sit down, sip a beverage, use the restroom, get another beer, etc.

Indeed, that's part of why I disdain this silly "alternating activation" fetish that all the kids claim is "the bomb" or something. I need a pause to refresh between my moves, and letting the other guy squint at the measuring stick, dig out his roster for reference and check a datafax allows me to visit the loo without any loss of vital gaming time.

What a hilarious and much needed thread!

Has anyone tossed the kids off the lawn yet for their fancy schmancy army list apps?

Back in the day, real men crunched their lists with paper and pencil and maybe a push button calculator, if they were well heeled or had one for school or work. Bonus points for sportsmanship if your opponent could actually read your handwriting or if you doodled something in the margins.

And I can remember many a game without lists where we just brought what we had and threw it on the table. That was true for Warhammer, 40K (Rogue Trader then), and our WW2, ACW, and Napoleonic miniature game sessions. I think we only drew a line at Guard units since one guy always wanted to use the entire French Imperial Guard.

Push Button Calculator? New fangled nonsense. I had make do with Abacus, and we were too poor for t’beads, so had to do long addition!

I started out using color-coded index cards to assist with ad hoc army generation.

I've never used an army builder, but I do use spreadsheets because as long as you use an innocuous file name, no one at work will trouble you while you're fiddling with them.