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The Salamanders were one of the original 20 Legions. I am not sure that they were any smaller than the other 19 (-2) Legions from the first founding. I am not sure what Beef means.

Darrian

What i meant was they were one of the smaller legions as the legions varied in size greatly fromm around 25000 the largest (ultramarines) to 30000 (salamanders) most were 100000

OOOPS sorry that was 250000 not 25000.

Posted By Darrian13 on 07/15/2006 9:20 PM
The Salamanders were one of the original 20 Legions. I am not sure that they were any smaller than the other 19 (-2) Legions from the first founding. I am not sure what Beef means.

Darrian

The Salamanders were one of the smallest first founding legions.

They got massacred at Istavaan along with the Iron Hands and the Raven Guard.

Note how even after the massacre the Iron Hands and Raven Guard were able to recover to the point to be split into successor chapters after the Codex Astartes was adopted (for example, Red Talons, Brazen Claws, Revilers, Raptors, and Black Guard), but the Salamanders were not.

So far I've seen mentions of Imperial Fists, Space Puppies, Luna puppies, Emperor's chumps, blood angels, word bearers, world eaters, and Thousand sons (by way of the sorcerors). I'm sure there will be mention of more in the third book, especially if that details Istvaan.

There was also a brief mention of the Iron Warriors near the end when Kharn suggested using them to break into the Iron Citadel.

The more I think about it, the less certain I am that Lokken will survive the last book. Too much was made of the rivalry between him and Lucius, and both have promised a duel in the future for greater stakes. Since we know Lucius sticks around, there's no guarentee Lokken survives the duel.

I will have to say, I'm kind of curious to see if Counter's going to try to explain the founding of the Grey Knights in that book.

Lokken wins and become Lucius?

I think he'll die in the duel in an attempt to delay Horus's troops while the Eisenstein gets away.

Lets hope not. I see torgaddon dying or maybe being captured and offered up as a sacrafice to the warp. Or just thinking F it I will stay with the warmaster

I just finished False Gods too. I liked it very much except for the end. It just seemed so rushed. Like Graham was like "Oh crap we are nearing page 400 snap a few necks and declare the heresy!"

Yeah poor Loken. I don't think he is going to see it through. Angron is the man, by the way.

Gotta agree trooper.  I felt vaguely unsatisfied by this book.  A couple of things that I didn't like (some already mentioned above):

1) Horus too easily led to Davin
2) Horus makes his 'decision' in the lodge - why?  Because he thought that Lorgar was chosen by chaos before him?  that's it?
3) Pretty bland decision to start the heresy.  Bring everyone together, then 'ok, we're attacking terra.'  Tada, instant heresy.  It was too easy.  No one even flinched.
4) Horus' neck-snapping, evil-grin evilness just seemed trite to me.

I'm finding following Loken and Torgaddon to be more interesting than anything else.  And reading little bits about the other chapters.  There are lots of pieces of the story that are interesting, and I would still recommend the book, but it was just a little too 'light' for me, especially for such a momentous occasion.

I got the impression that he made his decision based on what he though the Emperor was doing (and the Emperor's actions during his trip back to when the primarchs were still in their canisters).

Roll on part 3. Err when is that out?

Nobody, it was based on that idea. THe problem is that sure, we know what happens and "how" it happens. The first book was an excellent build up on the characters. I love the Luna Wolves! Makes me feel even more proud of my Black Legion . Its funny that they show Horus was stupid enough to think the Emperor was evil. It did make Horus' character look so... trivial. Larger than life, charismatic, powerful, genious and is so filled with jealousy and resentment that a shadow of doubt implanted is enough to override logic.

I agree about Loken and Torgaddon. I almost wish they go traitor just so I can have them as Chaos Lords in my army. I do eagerly await book 3 though. When is it out?

Posted By the_trooper on 07/26/2006 8:49 AM
Its funny that they show Horus was stupid enough to think the Emperor was evil.

Who is to say that he is not?

I wonder what was the bargain that the Emporer made with the chaos powers to help him create the primarchs? I wonder what he gave them? Are you sure he is not evil?

Darrian

Sorry, evil was a poor choice of a word. I should have used wrong. Funny how Horus was so easily made to think that everything the Emperor, his father, was wrong. Because of all the fluff its hard to think of Chaos or the warp as "evil" and just as they had described a powerful force that feeds off of human and other species emotions.

Stilll it seemed rushed. Sure Horus had to bargain with Chaos to come back from the dead. Maybe thats it. Maybe the Chaos gods said to go kill your daddy or we are not resurrecting you. Oh and he is going to do some *fudge*ed up things later on if you die. Not realizing that the future was only that because he killed his father and his brother.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense to me now.

Couple of things:

The old fluff always said that Russ went to bring back Magnus for his transgressions, but when the Thousand Sons resisted, it turned into a fight.  (I liked the nod to the Rubrick of Ahriman in the book too).  So this isn't retconning, really.

Horus snapping necks at the end didn't seem out of place to me; I thought that they did a good job of previously describing Horus and the other Luna wolves as killers barely held in check by their morality, so when the morality went away (influenced by Chaos), the slaughter started.

Good book. 

Horus was under Erberus influence for some time, and he said himself that he won't do it for the Chaso Gods, but for the future of the empire

thats what he thought but it was the influence of chaos he did it. people think that they can master chaos but in the end it masters them/.

Or he turned out just to be your average 3rd world Colonel Z, just waiting in the wings to stage a coup against whatever junta was in power at the time. The Second book, while lowering my opinion of the series in general, sufficiently re-lowered by opinion of Horus back to a two bit dictator wanna be.

yeah but he was no 2 bit dictator. he had half the imperium with him

Thats just a size thing. His actions and drivers were very 2 bit. He may have had the legions ala Caesar but his motivation and behavior was more akin to the latest Haiti dictator of the week.

What happened to all that high fallutin' genetic tweaking et all to avoid this? The legions were supposed to have been conditioned to follow the emperor, not cColonel Z (nice personal fluff contention is that the extensive mind wiping and mind control inhibitors were put in place only after the Heresy, which supports why fewer chapters have fallen in the last 10,000).

Its a personal thing. I thought the first book was excellent in building Horus up, but the second book was akin to the horrifying 2nd Star Wars series, turning the epic Fall of Man into a trip on a curb.

Posted By jfrazell 08/07/2006 8:57 AM
I thought the first book was excellent in building Horus up, but the second book was akin to the horrifying 2nd Star Wars series, turning the epic Fall of Man into a trip on a curb.

Watch that step, its a doosie!

@jfrazell. While I agree with you that "fall" was poorly handled, I am at a loss as to how to do it better. So, since you brought up your dislike for the "fall" how would you have done it, within the constraints of already published canon?

Darrian

Ah the old put up or shut up argument. I like that.


In Book One we have an indication that Horus is stressed by the burdens of command.

In Book Two Horus, commander of all the legions of the empire, driven by a lowly Erebus, again decides to get personally involved. He is wounded and on his deathbed suddenly starts the griping. Taken to temple and gripes some more (I must admit I liked this portion of the story). His underlings, again led by Erebus, convert to chaos/anti-imperium with relative ease. Then he immediately becomes the classic comic book bad guy.

Suggested changes
1) ok Abnett needed to write this book.
2) Erebus may be a triggering event, but move him away from the primary lever. One dude with ?if you can read this you just summoned a demon!? tattoos is not going to shift the Warmaster.
3) Shift away from the Davin moon battle, focus more on the fall and its drivers. Equivalent to shift away from special effects and focus on the human drama here.
4) More about the drivers here. Lets have some other disgruntled marines, push the undercurrents of discontent with them and their primarch. Abaddon?s wound opens up the wound in his psyche. Explore that in detail, explore whats really going on. Explore the hurts, the insults, anything more than ?gee dad left and now I?m really stressed out and no one is going to worship a statue of me so that?s it! Launch the plasma torpedoes! Make the decision for Abaddon more tortured. He believes everything (and nothing) in the visions, but they drive him anyway? Why? He is betraying his father. We?re talking fratricide from a loving son. We?re talking fratricide within the ranks.
5) More stress on the ?marines do not kill marines? mantra. Push that, so that the breaking of it is the ultimate full from grace, the ultimate betrayal. In book one killing jamal (??? The possessed marine) was a tragedy. In Book Two everyone converts to thoughts of wacking marines without a misstep.
6) Make the killing of the IG officer a watershed event. That?s the exact point where the Rubicon is crossed. If this were a Japanese play, everything would stop in place for a minute to digest the full impact. From that point forward its treason.

Look to some of the letters from officers at the beginning of the US Civil War when the union split and officers had to choose which side to fight for. Look to some of the works from writers such as Stephen Donaldson showing the descent (and eventual ascendancy of men). Heck look of Gollum. Now there is a tortured soul who has fallen.

And more Angron baby!!! He needs to fight one of the unnamed primarchs and kick his butt so badly they have to erase his name to erase the shame of such a galactic buttkicking?

to get all that in you would have to do more than 3 books, i for one could not be bothered with the wait.

specially after all the disapointment starwars episode 1 to 3 put us through

Nah, Stephen Donaldson did it in three books. Admittedly a brilliantly better writer, but oh well. They should have focused on that and away from side matters.

Oh and I agree. The butchery of episodes 1 through 3 make us old Darth vader fans weep. For want of one half decent writer...

Blame it on Lucas and he quest for even more wealth. On a side note he still has not done a six dvd set with all 6 episodes yet has he?? he will hopefully in the next year or so and then 4 years after that he will do the digitally remashtered version and a few years after that he will do the one with 3 min extra footage in each episode and then again after a few years he will digitally remaster that. The clever man.