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2013/11/08 21:47:48
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
I might have miscommunicated here- Prodos already clarified that the 10-pound pledge includes international shipping for add-ons. So, not sure if they'll be up for adding a 1-pound pledge (which would really only be of benefit to UK backers, although that would be nice for y'all, of course).
2013/11/08 21:51:12
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Let's just cool our jets and wait and see. The picture just shows a list of stuff we can have for free with some filler on the side, nowhere does it say or state that it is the design in question.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We're almost at 95k by the way, things are still going nicely in my humblest of opinions. Soon we'll have another update and then we'll see what the 100k mark has in store for us design wise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/08 21:52:12
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2013/11/08 21:57:14
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
BrookM wrote: Let's just cool our jets and wait and see. The picture just shows a list of stuff we can have for free with some filler on the side, nowhere does it say or state that it is the design in question.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We're almost at 95k by the way, things are still going nicely in my humblest of opinions. Soon we'll have another update and then we'll see what the 100k mark has in store for us design wise.
I think it's heavily implied in that image that that's the "warrior" Alien. But you're right, I'll wait til this actually hits 100k before I get too upset, and if I do want to have a whine about it, I'll go elsewhere.
2013/11/08 21:58:03
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
warboss wrote: Really, we didn't cover that enough in the previous 10 pages of discussion on alien taxonomy??
Oh bloody hell, not this again... they're right though, you can tell by how the arm connects to the "shoulder". That said though, the model is still fantastic-looking, even if it isn't quite "bio-organic" enough.
So, the "Free Facehuggers in box" .. does that mean the actual retail box set is getting upgraded to include extra facehuggers, like you would get them if you went and bought the game at a game shop? Or is it just extra facehuggers for backers?
2013/11/08 22:09:10
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
The actual retail box won't have most / any of these figs afaik, Necros... these are hand cast multipart resin models whereas the retail release of the main box will be single piece models, according to the KS page.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/08 22:09:52
2013/11/08 22:10:02
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
overtyrant wrote: Can anyone who has pledged please ask in the comments whether they will do a £1.00 pledge lvl for anyone who wants add ons but NOT the rules, thanks!
They're not going to do that because the cash there is basically paying for postage, the rules are just a sweetener
2013/11/08 22:12:29
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Also, great to see Prodos being clear about the material they are using! Future KS campaigns, take note
Prodos wrote:@Jake Young: We only say it is Polyurethane Plastic so that we don't mislead you guys. We are NOT using what is referred to in this industry as 'restic' as we believe it is a secondary material to Polyurethane. What is normally referred to as 'Plastic' in the infantry is Styrene Plastic and 'Resins' can be a huge variety of plastics, styrene based, urethane based and Epoxy are all very common.
Polyurethane is great because it captures detail, is easy to clean up and assemble, can be heated for reposing, be cut for conversions, mouldlines are easily removed with a scalpel or file, it is non-toxic and simply great to assemble, paint and play games with! Forgot to say! It is very sturdy, and snaps cleanly if it does snap (but it has to undergo quite a lot of stress for that to happen!).
I think it would be a great idea for us to show you guys by making a video of us working with some castings.
Is that yet another dig at mantic gee I am starting to think someone at prodos got sacked by mantic
Also restic is a polyurethane plastic and originally mantic called it as such but to many people got a stick up there ass about it being called a plastic when it was not the injection moulded stuff.
Also you think before you start randomly calling out another manufacturer in you 2nd ks you would have at least delivered the 1st tiny ks you had done.
Anyway going to come back in a week and see if theres any value to the pledges below £225.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2013/11/08 22:16:27
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
That was really interesting Antenociti, thanks for writing it
At last some kind of logic to the price disparity.
Having looked at that 3d model of the female predator, looks like I am quite obviously wrong about it and that is the actual predator-race female, rather than Machiko as I'm sure I and a lot of the other AvP comic book fans were hoping
Prodos - if you are reading this, I will gladly give you a pound of my flesh for a miniature of Machiko before this KS has finished !
Also, great to see Prodos being clear about the material they are using! Future KS campaigns, take note
Prodos wrote:@Jake Young: We only say it is Polyurethane Plastic so that we don't mislead you guys. We are NOT using what is referred to in this industry as 'restic' as we believe it is a secondary material to Polyurethane. What is normally referred to as 'Plastic' in the infantry is Styrene Plastic and 'Resins' can be a huge variety of plastics, styrene based, urethane based and Epoxy are all very common.
Polyurethane is great because it captures detail, is easy to clean up and assemble, can be heated for reposing, be cut for conversions, mouldlines are easily removed with a scalpel or file, it is non-toxic and simply great to assemble, paint and play games with! Forgot to say! It is very sturdy, and snaps cleanly if it does snap (but it has to undergo quite a lot of stress for that to happen!).
I think it would be a great idea for us to show you guys by making a video of us working with some castings.
Is that yet another dig at mantic gee I am starting to think someone at prodos got sacked by mantic
Also restic is a polyurethane plastic and originally mantic called it as such but to many people got a stick up there ass about it being called a plastic when it was not the injection moulded stuff.
Also you think before you start randomly calling out another manufacturer in you 2nd ks you would have at least delivered the 1st tiny ks you had done.
Anyway going to come back in a week and see if theres any value to the pledges below £225.
Lol, complex much? I specifically said "future campaigns" to avoid anyone getting that idea... and yet, you got it, anyway!
It was an issue with multiple companies and has been discussed frequently on Dakka. Clarity on material is very much appreciated, by any company!
Seriously, give the AvP / Mantic feud a rest, I have no problem with either campaign and want both to succeed. Truce? Awesome aliens for all? Thanks
2013/11/08 22:55:53
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2013/11/08 23:14:33
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?
Yeah... even Antenociti isn't claiming that technical limitations "precisely explain the price differential...."; it's clear that a) the Preds are somewhat more complicated to cast (possibly), but let's be real here, it's mostly b) that Prodos expects to sell a lot fewer of them. Which is a self-fulfilling prophecy really, since those prices do in fact suck.
Just compare the cost of the Colonial Marine Sergeant at 8GBP to a Predator at 10GBP; is it that the Sergeant is such a detailed model compared to the other marines that he more then twice as much as a Marine? 'Course not.
The most important part of the "economics" is what people are willing to pay (let's be honest, a huge amount of the value in this campaign is the license); 10GBP each is premium pricing, more so then I (for one) am willing to pay.
But of course, part and parcel of all this is that there are (quite obviously) a lot of fans of this combined franchise that are a good deal more... enthusiastic then I am. If Prodos wants to float the campaign on them, the fact that it doesn't blow my hair back isn't all that important.
Also, great to see Prodos being clear about the material they are using! Future KS campaigns, take note
Prodos wrote:@Jake Young: We only say it is Polyurethane Plastic so that we don't mislead you guys. We are NOT using what is referred to in this industry as 'restic' as we believe it is a secondary material to Polyurethane. What is normally referred to as 'Plastic' in the infantry is Styrene Plastic and 'Resins' can be a huge variety of plastics, styrene based, urethane based and Epoxy are all very common.
Polyurethane is great because it captures detail, is easy to clean up and assemble, can be heated for reposing, be cut for conversions, mouldlines are easily removed with a scalpel or file, it is non-toxic and simply great to assemble, paint and play games with! Forgot to say! It is very sturdy, and snaps cleanly if it does snap (but it has to undergo quite a lot of stress for that to happen!).
I think it would be a great idea for us to show you guys by making a video of us working with some castings.
Is that yet another dig at mantic gee I am starting to think someone at prodos got sacked by mantic
Also restic is a polyurethane plastic and originally mantic called it as such but to many people got a stick up there ass about it being called a plastic when it was not the injection moulded stuff.
Also you think before you start randomly calling out another manufacturer in you 2nd ks you would have at least delivered the 1st tiny ks you had done.
Anyway going to come back in a week and see if theres any value to the pledges below £225.
Lol, complex much? I specifically said "future campaigns" to avoid anyone getting that idea... and yet, you got it, anyway!
It was an issue with multiple companies and has been discussed frequently on Dakka. Clarity on material is very much appreciated, by any company!
Seriously, give the AvP / Mantic feud a rest, I have no problem with either campaign and want both to succeed. Truce? Awesome aliens for all? Thanks
Lol my bad i was not implying anything against yourself just that as per that comment and others Prodos seem to have an issue, should have deleted your comments out oh and ok Truce
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2013/11/08 23:41:53
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?
But the situation laid out by Antenociti doesn't necessarily cover the economics that well. This KS will be covering a lot, if not all (it should be all), of their costs in producing both this limited edition and the standard edition. From what I've heard other producers say, the board, books, and cards are likely to be the single biggest expense.
We are taking on all the risk as backers. Shouldn't we get something for that? A discount that matches or gets near to what I can get from an online shop (without having to spend extra to get it) is not too much to ask in exchange for that risk, in my opinion.
I don't know. I do know that in my opinion, folks asking for better value to cover all the risks is not out of line. I feel that the KS price for the Predators could (maybe should) be closer to that of the Aliens or Colonial Marine squad. Once it hits retail, the situation that Antenociti outlined becomes entirely relevant.
At least it is a technical explanation for why the Preds should cost more, from someone who works within the business.
Personally, I don't think the price is that bad. £10 for a larger 'character' esque miniature isn't bad, when compared to a lot of the stuff on the rest of the market. I want to say it in hushed tones (and not give anyone any ideas!) but I have no doubt at all that they could have fleeced the market a lot more for it, if they had been so inclined.
Alpharius wrote: That's doubtful, I think, as these prices and the deals as currently constituted are pushing limits as is...
I think they'll get better though!
Definitely agree that they're pushing it as is ; p If they get better, as they seem to be doing now, I'll happily jump in if it gets good enough for a very value oriented gamer ; p
The KS ones being multi-part are great, but them being resin is less ideal. The retail ones being plastic is great, but them being single-piece is less ideal. Damn this imperfect world!!
2013/11/09 00:08:47
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Pacific wrote: At least it is a technical explanation for why the Preds should cost more, from someone who works within the business.
Personally, I don't think the price is that bad. £10 for a larger 'character' esque miniature isn't bad, when compared to a lot of the stuff on the rest of the market. I want to say it in hushed tones (and not give anyone any ideas!) but I have no doubt at all that they could have fleeced the market a lot more for it, if they had been so inclined.
Ehh... one of the reasons I'm rather pessimistic is that when a company gets a bit license like this, the inclination seems to be to shoot the moon.
But with that said, it's important to remember that this is a unique time: now, and really only now, are we (the consumers) able to give any meaningful input to the companies on pricing, product, etc.
If one thinks the Predators are too expensive (as I do), now is the time to say it, 'cause it is not going to be open to change very, very soon.
If you want female Marines (in addition to the 1 supposedly in already), now is the time to pipe up.
Once this is over, the attention of the company turns away. Once this is over, the voice of the consumers is diluted.
Now is the time to be telling the campaign what you want and what you don't, because once it's closed, it's closed.
Honestly.. think there is a lot of quibbling over minutiae at the moment! This is fething Aliens and Predator for Christ's sake! I'm still giggling like a little schoolgirl at the prospect of there finally being some decent miniatures for one of the coolest sci-fi franchises of all time.
At the moment this thread almost sounds like people hopping into bed with Salma Hayek and then complaining that she has a pimple on her ass
Pacific wrote: Honestly.. think there is a lot of quibbling over minutiae at the moment! This is fething Aliens and Predator for Christ's sake! I'm still giggling like a little schoolgirl at the prospect of there finally being some decent miniatures for one of the coolest sci-fi franchises of all time.
At the moment this thread almost sounds like people hopping into bed with Salma Hayek and then complaining that she has a pimple on her ass
The straw man argument is the best argument, because the straw man argument just never ends.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/09 00:24:28
Little orphans in the snow
With nowhere to call a home
Start their singing, singing
Waiting through the summertime
To thaw your hearts in wintertime
That's why they're singing, singing
2013/11/09 00:22:44
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
