Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Update 12 - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game/posts/662356

As many of you know Mark (and wife) of Prodos Games is expecting a baby!

We were hoping to give this one out as a present when the baby came, but obviously some people are upset about the £185K Stretch Goal...so the present announcement comes early:

When baby comes and if we are above £170k everyone at 'Payback Time!' or higher will get an additional £10 of addons.

Add-ons are on Mark

Come on Baby! Make Mark pay......

£165 (Real aliens plus £10 for shipping) is about as high as I'm prepared to go.
I don't need two boxed games.

You know, what I really like about these guys is that they're willing to admit to - and correct - their mistakes. That, and they seem like very friendly folks.

Congratulations, Mark and Mark's Wife!

 Medium of Death wrote:
but ffs would it have killed them to have 3D renders made before the kickstarter and time a video to show snippets of that stuff along to above said track

First off, I totally agree with your "FFS" sentiment. This is a big license. Kickstarter backers are way, way too nice. "Here's a ton of my hard earned money, I don't mind if you feth around like amateurs."

Personally, I do mind. I don't see a KS as doing me a favor unlike a lot of hemming and hawing backers. This has got to be a mutually beneficial arrangement and high consumer standards are important to driving high quality products. (YES - KS backers are CUSTOMERS and NOT investors.)

That said: The way Prodos has handled this KS so far has been pretty even. Slow updates are balanced against a good amount of responsiveness. What initially seemed like an expensive cash in on IP value has grown into a better deal. BUT it is really important to understand that this deal remains very hypothetical.

Prodos is asking for money now in exchange for a promise of goods later and the representation that said goods will be of high quality. It should be obvious to anyone that pledgers are in the less favorable position in this transaction. For that reason, Prodos or any company using KS really needs to be clear and responsive.

I think they are doing an okay job so far. The 185k stretch goal is kind of an exception to that. They need to do something about that, at the very least putting a little effort in to sell it (by, for example, talking up the tiles) or scrapping it/sweetening it.

But since we know they are slow to respond, even if they are responsive, I think it's reasonable to believe they'll eventually do one or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: hey -- so there it is, even as I was posting ... good to see my faith in Prodos is fulfilled.

I hate to say it but I wish it was Mantic handling this license. We would be at £350,000 or more, most likely we would have beta rules and game play videos not to mention hordes of Aliens.

One wonders that if a nearly unknown company like Prodos could get the license why Mantic did not.

Also, I would not be comfortable with Mantic-quality on this project. Mantic makes great stuff but I think this needs a bit more detail.

Manchu wrote:
One wonders that if a nearly unknown company like Prodos could get the license why Mantic did not.

Also, I would not be comfortable with Mantic-quality on this project. Mantic makes great stuff but I think this needs a bit more detail.

Easier to control.

Also, I really wish we could get more pics of this.

Prodos wrote:As many of you know Mark (and wife) of Prodos Games is expecting a baby!

We were hoping to give this one out as a present when the baby came, but obviously some people are upset about the £185K Stretch Goal...so the present announcement comes early:

When baby comes and if we are above £170k everyone at 'Payback Time!' or higher will get an additional £10 of addons.

Add-ons are on Mark

Come on Baby! Make Mark pay......

Okay, but you've still made a really BS'y move. Seriously, why can't you change it? Just replace it with another model option or sculpt. Do this at the end of the Kickstarter, not now.

I'm glad that Prodos have seen the light, and hope all goes well with the new baby! Does Prodos really just have a couple of guys running it?

Manchu wrote:
One wonders that if a nearly unknown company like Prodos could get the license why Mantic did not.

Also, I would not be comfortable with Mantic-quality on this project. Mantic makes great stuff but I think this needs a bit more detail.

I think Prodos must have shown their quality Warzone stuff to them and they were impressed with the detail. I agree entirely with the second line, could just imagine my nitpicking (and others) if this was a Mantic job.

The Aliens license has been out there for a while as far as I know. over the summer I was looking into some different IPs with Game Salute and they said Aliens was available. I didn't really have the cash in place to sink into the game to make it great. Ya snooze ya lose

Glad Prodos is doing the models justice, they look awesome so far

 Spinner wrote:
You know, what I really like about these guys is that they're willing to admit to - and correct - their mistakes. That, and they seem like very friendly folks.

Congratulations, Mark and Mark's Wife!

Totally agreed! But darn it, why did the "add-ons only" pledge level have to be under Payback Time, grrr

Hmm, maybe next week I'll see if I can up my pledge level or not, it is tempting. Not super tempting though, there isn't a lot of USCM stuff to go around.

 Imposter101 wrote:
Easier to control.

As far as AvP licence holders are concerned there's no difference between Mantic and Prodos, except for the quality of the product they offer. I don't think anyone would expect Mantic to get bullish about what they can and cannot do with the licence.

How accurate has Kicktraq been in the past?



Looks like todays crap stretchgoal didn't really help.

Today is more about moving pledges around than adding backs. Plus, we're talking about people crossing the $300 mark which seems to be a kind of glass ceiling for KS backers.

Well, the day has most of the way to go yet, and of course they anounced a much better one (even though it doesn't apply to me!) later.

The sweet spot has definitely gotten higher on these campaigns, though- hopefully 75 pounds gets some more love, as the 125 pound level is $200 before shipping.

 Medium of Death wrote:
How accurate has Kicktraq been in the past?

It hasn't. Miniature Kickstarters tend to spike at the start and finish, which Kicktraq does not reflect.

Well say what you like, but they do listen to feedback.
--scratch this--
I hear those pre-heresy power armour kits keep their value quite well and I'm never getting around to an army for a game I've lost all interest in anymore anyway...

The Aliens and Predator licenses have a HUGE following, the problem with this kickstarter is that it is catering to a small niche of that following that are also gaming hobbyists.

I think this KS would have been huge if the base game was more accessible to the non-hobbyist following with some special rewards thrown in for hobbyists.

As it is now many of us are waiting for more info about the retail version of the game.

Visceral_Mass wrote:
The Aliens and Predator licenses have a HUGE following, the problem with this kickstarter is that it is catering to a small niche of that following that are also gaming hobbyists.

I think this KS would have been huge if the base game was more accessible to the non-hobbyist following with some special rewards thrown in for hobbyists.

As it is now many of us are waiting for more info about the retail version of the game.

I think the retail version, if marketed correctly, will be a big seller. I was really hoping they would include it in this KS.

Since Update 11, when the 185k goal was announced, the KS has made nearly 5000 GBP. There are 7 less Real Aliens level backers and 15 more If It Bleeds level backers. So, assuming a few things, about 44% of today's gains so far can be attributed to the 185k goal.

Now, assuming the new 170k goal is in addition to the 185k goal, If It Bleeds backers are getting 75 GBP over their pledge amount (26%+ discount) while Real Aliens backers are only getting 35 GBP over their pledge amount (18%+ discount), without taking any free add-ons/upgrades into account. That's likely driving it, too.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
How accurate has Kicktraq been in the past?

It hasn't. Miniature Kickstarters tend to spike at the start and finish, which Kicktraq does not reflect.

They're not accurate this early in the process. As a general rule, Kickstarters tend to have a starting spike that is roughly equal to the ending on in a moderately well run campaign with a central plateau that doesn't change much. Some kickstarters buck the trend though depending on developments during the campaign (like mars attack having a relatively small tail whereas others like myth exceed their initial surges). While it could still be completely inaccurate, I'd say add the first 72 hours worth to the total and extend out the average of the last few days to towards the rest of the campaign and you'll have a decent estimate.

 warboss wrote:
Prodos has every right to manipulate and tweak the stretch goals as they see fit for their own benefit. As a KS pledger, it's up to you to tell them via your pledge if the goal is really to their benefit at the expense of the customer base. If you're unhappy, drop your pledge down to 1 GBP as there in effect are no "limited" pledges like early birds and you have nothing to lose. You can just increase it after if you feel the mistake has been corrected. Kickstarters are a collaborative process and the people holding the money also hold some power (at least while the funding is ongoing).

Exalted.
Kvetching only does so much. Put your money where your mouth is and drop tour funding to show how ridiculous you feel their deal is.
Like EF Hutton, when money talks, people listen...
It is the quickest and most succinct way to show displeasure at what they are trying to sell you.

 Medium of Death wrote:
How accurate has Kicktraq been in the past?

It's not.

It's an estimation based on the previous day, which means they generally project HUGE numbers (especially for big/popular franchises/campaigns) that then become more reasonable towards the end, at which point the predictions are essentially worthless.

The daily data can be interesting to track the ebb and flow of funds and backers, but the estimations are pure fantasy, and they outright note themselves that they aren't predictions, merely extrapolations.

Plus, it's impossible to tell how the final 48 hour run (when the reminder emails go out) will do, but it's generally a good boost, if not outright rockin'.

 warboss wrote:
like mars attack having a relatively small tail

I wonder if that had anything to do with the built-in add-on dollars and, if so, whether we will see another small tail with AvP.

I would have loved to back it. At this price, i will not make any effort in that direction. The initial products seens to have to little stuff for to many money. And the expansions are not helping it.

I mean, 75 libs for 23 miniatures? Plus some hard paper corridors and cards? Those prices seens stupid like GW, and we are at the KS.

Not for me, and i just wanted to make it clear why it is not for me.

...plus five facehuggers, plus two individual models, plus another unit of five...
by the looks of their casting quality, the price point is exceptional and actually supplying reasonably good (for resin!) quality models at below GW's plastic prices. I think you're missing something here.

I also note that comment volume remains very high today. Between Monday and Tuesday, comments skyrocketed by 71% and were accompanied by a 10% increase in both backers and pounds pledged. Although comments remained just as high yesterday, both backers and pounds pledged dropped from Tuesday (by about 18% and 14% respectively). Today looks like it will generate the same amount if not more comments than the last two days but pledges and backers are even further down so far, too.

What was the magic of November 12? That was the day Prodos announced another free add-on stretch goal. Lo and behold, the day the other free add-on was announced was also their best day (by far) in all of comments, backers, and pounds pledged. So the moral of the story is that while adding add-on pounds to certain pledge levels can sustain a good amount of discussion, it doesn't really drive either of people getting behind the project or overall funding amounts. Based on my earlier analysis, however, it can help squeeze a little more money out of folks who are already pledging a lot.

Free add-on/upgrade pledges appear to be the aces up Prodos's sleeve in practice as well as theory. If today continues to slow down then so will tomorrow unless Prodos does a sneak peak at whatever (if anything) lies between 185k and 200k+. On the other hand, the weekend is coming up and that's a slow down on it's own. So I doubt we'll hear much until Monday, which will then hopefully prime the whole week.

And just for lolz, can you guys imagine what people would do if we got all the way up to the Queen and it turned out she was a free upgrade???

The pricing is rather nonsensical, especially once one starts to break down what is in the 75GBP pledge versus the components by themselves. This situation leads to some almost hilarious results if one is more focused on the Predator side of things.

The base game pledge (75GBP);

Plus 1 add-on from a list, plus a Berserker Predator, plus 1 choice from a different list.

So, if you're interested in Preds, going for the 75GBP pledge nets you the base game with the 3 man unit, a Fem Pred for free, a 'Zerker and then the Hounds.

If you buy these ala carte, it's 65 GBP (assuming that you could buy a Zerker for 10GBP, which apparently you can't?).


One can go in two general ways from that info: the first is that the base pledge is a great deal.

The second is to say Whoa, they have jacked up the prices on the Preds something crazy. Which, unless one assumes that the cards, boards, terrain, facehuggers, Xenos and Marines are all stupid cheap, seems pretty clearly a winner.

Try the same analysis on the other factions.

 CptJake wrote:

Visceral_Mass wrote:
The Aliens and Predator licenses have a HUGE following, the problem with this kickstarter is that it is catering to a small niche of that following that are also gaming hobbyists.

I think this KS would have been huge if the base game was more accessible to the non-hobbyist following with some special rewards thrown in for hobbyists.

As it is now many of us are waiting for more info about the retail version of the game.

I think the retail version, if marketed correctly, will be a big seller. I was really hoping they would include it in this KS.

The retail version will have single piece plastics, which makes the retail edition more geared towards the casual players while this version right now is geared towards us table-toppers.