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2013/11/24 22:01:35
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
- Game play was solid and a lot of fun. Needs a bit more balancing to be perfect, but players yesterday gave feedback. Let's hope they listen to it.
In CQC, Predators kicked ass in 1v1. However, a squad of aliens was able to rip the Predators apart. Same as Aliens in the War game. In open terrain, the aliens just get decimated.
- Board game was different enough from the war game, but similar enough to act as a gateway to the war game. However a lot of the stuff had spelling errors. Jarek apologised for his Polgrish and said it would be corrected in the final version.
- Models look very nice. Even the Predalien (Which WAS there, I might add, I just couldn't take pictures of it. Just so there's no more confusion), which unfortunately has to be edited. The camo Predator also looks nice. I uploaded pics of it to the gallery.
- We got given freebies. I took a bunch of people with me, they gave me their stuff. Freebies are always good.
- Models are very sturdy. When someone asked if they break easily, Mark picked a model up and dropped it on the ground. It was still fine.
Note: When I got home, however, I managed to break the tail off of an Alien. So, they're flexible within reason, but if you bend them too far they will break (so don't give them to little kits).
- The Battle system terrain whilst nice, was not the board game, which was a letdown. Jarek apologised and said we would see it as soon as they got it from the printers.
- Battle System is very nice, and works well with the AVP. We also saw the next couple of bits for the next Pledge level with Battle Systems. Thoroughly recommend it!
- The guys couldn't seem to agree on the rules, which held up game play a bit. I feel like some of the rules were made up on the spot, which probably why the balancing was an issue. Nevertheless, it didn't take away from the fun, just made it more challenging.
Not the most reassuring news. But to be expected. The alien tails breaking seems to be a given. The rules being "85%" might likely be true given this info.. Quite a few simulation games need an off the cuff judgement now and then to keep things running.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This was there as well:
"Board game had mission cards that we were told could be randomly drawn. Not only that, but there were also 'Affect cards' that would do things. Such as a fire breaking out and turning the sprinklers on - when that occurred all Predators couldn't cloak. There was also gravity turning off, which meant models could move an extra 2 spaces, but were at -3 to attack. Those sorts of things weren't in the War game."
That would be by me.
Only one Alien tail break, and that's when my Permanent Roommate bent it flat against itself, snapping it.
Break is clean, though. Thinking about gluing it to the base and having it as a 'battle wound'.
2013/11/24 22:04:19
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
You could well find that in getting the licence to make their stuff the other companies had to grant Fox a licence to use their stuff including images to fox
2013/11/24 22:59:16
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: You could well find that in getting the licence to make their stuff the other companies had to grant Fox a licence to use their stuff including images to fox
Thats a possibility for a few of those things... but stuff like the custom toy and DeviantArt work is not going to fall under that.
Wolfun wrote: Well, has anyone asked the original artists if Prodos asked for the permission first? People seem to be jumping the guns a bit.
I don't think its jumping the gun if Prodos used the images without noting the source. If they did ask permission you'd think they'd have the common courtesy to let people know where the images came from.
2013/11/24 23:18:03
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Wolfun wrote: Well, has anyone asked the original artists if Prodos asked for the permission first? People seem to be jumping the guns a bit.
Life would be so much easier if the gun wasn't jumped all the time, but then it'd be a bit boring. Imagine a world where people managed to steer clear of their immediate reactions until they had all the facts straight. Unfathomable.
2013/11/24 23:36:23
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
2013/11/24 23:49:14
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
I posted this to the comments but thought it was worth sharing here too:
This was a really interesting comment by Prodos, hoping for more info tomorrow. First the question they responded to, note #2 especially:
--------------------------------------------------------------
1) After the kickstarter ends, will the extra from the surveys count to unlocking the strech goals that are on the kickstarter?
2) Are you still going to release Wargamer add-ons/ battle forces, like you said during this kickstarter?
3) Any more Wargamer pledge levels coming?
4) Are the pred young bloods going to be a mix of male/female?
5) On the cloaked pred freebie, that is any pred model including the Berserker?
6) Will the young bloods have a cloaked version also?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prodos' answer:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
@William,
1) no,
2) more info with next SG 3)Yes with next SG 4) No
5) any Pred model (excluding Dogs :] ) will be available in cloaked version.
Some discounted wargamer add-on / battleforces would be very welcome. People have been asking for "packs", like Predators and their clear versions, etc. It'd certainly be nice but I'm not holding my breath, it'll just help my pledge go further if they do add them.
2013/11/25 01:04:01
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
UruksDreamToo wrote: I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
So.. if you draw some space marine scribbles then GW owns the rights to *YOUR* drawings and can use them with or without your permission however they see fit? That's a very GW lawyer view point of the law you have.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2013/11/25 01:06:39
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
UruksDreamToo wrote: I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
This is so wrong it's hilarious. And no they don't.
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/
2013/11/25 01:32:39
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
Why is being excited for this such a negative thing?
I’m sure glad GW is going to all plastic, so the ever-rising cost of white metal won’t impact the cost of their miniatures.
2013/11/25 03:55:39
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Ugh, what an over the line comment...
Hellfury wrote: Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section
While in any comments section you'll have more fans than not, at least there it's possible to talk about the product. Here, there just seems to be a cycle of people freaking out over anything. To take you as an example- you made a post being really upset about the box marines and add-on marines being different a page ago, only to realize that they actually both look really good and that they had already posted a comparison picture. Not only that, but they were made different at the request of many backers, who didn't want duplicates. And not only THAT, but the weapons that are in the starter box that people didn't necessarily want tons of duplicates of (like the smartgun and flamer) will be offered as weapons packs after the kickstarter. I bet they'll even let people use their pledge credit towards them, if they come out before the pledge manager is closed.
But instead of talking about that (the actual product) we're just going from whatever dilemma people come up with to the next. I'm not saying it's off-topic or anything, it's certainly valid to discuss the images used in the campaign, but the cycle of outrage is getting pretty old so I'm reading where the actual product is being discussed, and that's the comments, other blogs, etc.
Fact is, this campaign is likely going to raise a half million dollars and put out amazing resin aliens. But all we can talk about is the presentation. People are treating this as if it's run by CMON when it's run by 3 guys, one of whom's spouse is having a baby any day. I just don't get all the vitriol... this isn't a giant corporation, it's 3 guys who sell resin models and love SciFi. The rage is really out of place, imo, and I can only put it down to people being disappointed that is isn't everything they'd hoped it would be. But for me, it's still Aliens versus Predator, and at some point you have to either accept that it's a campaign run by a small number of guys, funding something they couldn't make otherwise, or just criticize them for all the things they're not able to do perfectly. It's definitely your (and anyone's) right to do the latter, but it's missing the mark a bit to just do it incessantly- just like it's missing the mark to pretend that the campaign has no flaws whatsoever.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/25 03:59:03
2013/11/25 03:58:48
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
Why is being excited for this such a negative thing?
He's not talking about the project itself, but the rather liberal use of slinging the old "My IP is bigger then your IP" sort of thing thats becoming more prevelent as the days go on.
Instead of talking about the project, or individuals discussing the tabletop game, figures, and add ons itself, the self imposed ruleslawers are in there !@#$ing and moaning about everything but.
Prodos's project isn't what it should be at this point. Something is wrong with it, and I can't quite put my finger on what exactly it is.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2013/11/25 04:05:46
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
I think it isn't what people might have hoped it would be. But as I said, it's likely going to raise a half million dollars or more, and it's 3 guys who were able to get the license to Alien vs. Predator. Good for them! People act like they stole it from someone else, we haven't had any options for those minis up to this point!
3 guys, one of whom is having a baby with his spouse any day now... but people are posting about them as if they're a giant corporation worthy of vitriol for all the things they haven't been able to do yet. It's clear they're enthusiastic about the project (to those who read the transcripts of the open day gaming, etc) and want to do a lot- but they're a small operation.
This isn't being run by CMON, they're doing it themselves... without Kickstarter these resin miniatures would not be happening, and maybe they couldn't have gotten the license at all. I think people should cut them a little more slack, honestly, but even if they don't, just realize who you're complaining about- 3 people, that's it. I'd like to see anyone here do better! One lead, one writer, one production manager... seriously guys, realize what you're complaining about.
You can say "They don't deserve the license", but the fact is they got it, and I applaud them for it. I think they'll put out a great product. But again, the amount of vitriol over their efforts has been pretty shocking to me... it's Aliens versus Predator, coming into miniature form. I'm stoke about it, as is my local friend who's buying in, and my other friend is buying the Battle Systems terrain . We're going to have a blast with it... whether these 3 guys ran a perfect campaign is really not going to play into my enjoyment of these models at all.
2013/11/25 04:09:52
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Ugh, what an over the line comment...
Hellfury wrote: Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section
While in any comments section you'll have more fans than not, at least there it's possible to talk about the product. Here, there just seems to be a cycle of people freaking out over anything. To take you as an example- you made a post being really upset about the box marines and add-on marines being different a page ago, only to realize that they actually both look really good and that they had already posted a comparison picture. Not only that, but they were made different at the request of many backers, who didn't want duplicates. And not only THAT, but the weapons that are in the starter box that people didn't necessarily want tons of duplicates of (like the smartgun and flamer) will be offered as weapons packs after the kickstarter. I bet they'll even let people use their pledge credit towards them, if they come out before the pledge manager is closed.
But instead of talking about that (the actual product) we're just going from whatever dilemma people come up with to the next. I'm not saying it's off-topic or anything, it's certainly valid to discuss the images used in the campaign, but the cycle of outrage is getting pretty old so I'm reading where the actual product is being discussed, and that's the comments, other blogs, etc.
Fact is, this campaign is likely going to raise a half million dollars and put out amazing resin aliens. But all we can talk about is the presentation. People are treating this as if it's run by CMON when it's run by 3 guys, one of whom's spouse is having a baby any day. I just don't get all the vitriol... this isn't a giant corporation, it's 3 guys who sell resin models and love SciFi. The rage is really out of place, imo, and I can only put it down to people being disappointed that is isn't everything they'd hoped it would be. But for me, it's still Aliens versus Predator, and at some point you have to either accept that it's a campaign run by a small number of guys, funding something they couldn't make otherwise, or just criticize them for all the things they're not able to do perfectly. It's definitely your (and anyone's) right to do the latter, but it's missing the mark a bit to just do it incessantly- just like it's missing the mark to pretend that the campaign has no flaws whatsoever.
Well said.
To get a bit back on topic about the game itself I really love how they are including so many iconic things such as the ripped in two Bishop. I'm glad this is being run by fans. For a while the comments really had me concerned but I am thrilled so far with what I've seen. This KS is really expensive I agree, especially for the US pledges because our dollar is in the tank. The exchange rate just kills us. I'm really happy they changed the add on box of marines because I certainly didn't want duplicate poses.
I've also had the luck of finding Alien eggs on the cheap so I won't need to buy them from the KS and can use my bongo bucks on other items.
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
Why is being excited for this such a negative thing?
He's not talking about the project itself, but the rather liberal use of slinging the old "My IP is bigger then your IP" sort of thing thats becoming more prevelent as the days go on.
Instead of talking about the project, or individuals discussing the tabletop game, figures, and add ons itself, the self imposed ruleslawers are in there !@#$ing and moaning about everything but.
Prodos's project isn't what it should be at this point. Something is wrong with it, and I can't quite put my finger on what exactly it is.
If I had to offer my humble opinion and had to give it one word that word would be unprepared. If I were running a KS I'd at least have all the basics which they do not but that can be attributed to 3 guys that are fans wanting to get this out there and not thinking ahead. I certainly don't have a sense of dishonestly. Just rushed maybe.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/25 04:23:51
I’m sure glad GW is going to all plastic, so the ever-rising cost of white metal won’t impact the cost of their miniatures.
2013/11/25 04:15:36
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
And I agree that price is the major downside here. And perhaps what has people so upset, as basically it's too expensive for folks to easily buy into. But licenses are expensive, as are resin models... and that's what Prodos has experience making.
Fingers crossed that the exchange rate doesn't get any worse before the end, 1.6 is no fun!
2013/11/25 04:31:13
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
If you can get ahold of the Alien Playset, or even some of the figures from Treehouse Kids, you can get yourself a gak load of eggs.
Add them to a casting process, and you could have as many as you'd want.
I have a few of the sets, and this is probibly going to be my foray into casting.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2013/11/25 04:38:03
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
I'm not sure you quite understand the legal issue at hand (assuming, arguendo, that Prodos has not individually licensed this material):
Fox not giving Prodos permission to use content does not allow Prodos to use (note also that the use is without attribution) content that they have no legal right to use.
Using the aforementioned content would be in the US, a violation of the relevant Copyright laws. Note that while in many cases people will point to the fair use doctrine, that is not applicable here. Prodos is not presenting this work in a non-commercial context or to give compatibility information, they are flat out presenting other people's work as their own. This also leads to subsequent copyright problems if the aforementioned copyrighted images form the basis of their subsequent models; if one uses pictures of a copyright expression to make a replica of that expression, that itself is a violation.
This, of course, also has various implications for violations of trademarks.
It also leads to issues of Fraud, specifically Fraud in the Inducement: Prodos has, in several cases, shown pictures of other people's items as items for sale. Any subsequent contract that can be credibly stated to have been motivated by said images is extremely legally problematic.
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
I'm not sure you quite understand the legal issue at hand (assuming, arguendo, that Prodos has not individually licensed this material):
Fox not giving Prodos permission to use content does not allow Prodos to use (note also that the use is without attribution) content that they have no legal right to use.
Using the aforementioned content would be in the US, a violation of the relevant Copyright laws. Note that while in many cases people will point to the fair use doctrine, that is not applicable here. Prodos is not presenting this work in a non-commercial context or to give compatibility information, they are flat out presenting other people's work as their own. This also leads to subsequent copyright problems if the aforementioned copyrighted images form the basis of their subsequent models; if one uses pictures of a copyright expression to make a replica of that expression, that itself is a violation.
This, of course, also has various implications for violations of trademarks.
It also leads to issues of Fraud, specifically Fraud in the Inducement: Prodos has, in several cases, shown pictures of other people's items as items for sale. Any subsequent contract that can be credibly stated to have been motivated by said images is extremely legally problematic.
[/spoiler]
Or perhaps they have all the permissions, agreements, secret handshakes, and meeting around a campfire on a moonless night required to use the images they have. that's just a possible.
I’m sure glad GW is going to all plastic, so the ever-rising cost of white metal won’t impact the cost of their miniatures.
2013/11/25 04:56:28
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
Or perhaps they have all the permissions, agreements, secret handshakes, and meeting around a campfire on a moonless night required to use the images they have. that's just a possible.
"just a[s] possible"?
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, even if (and the lack of attribution here is rather striking) that were the case, you do realize that such permissions would not speak to the issue of fraud by inducement, right?
RiTides wrote: And I agree that price is the major downside here. And perhaps what has people so upset, as basically it's too expensive for folks to easily buy into. But licenses are expensive, as are resin models... and that's what Prodos has experience making.
Price (and related, resin) is the only downside for me here, and why I'm not backing it. How they've managed the project other than that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'd be in for so many models if it was multi-part plastic at reasonable license + multi-part plastic prices. Not a whinge, just saying I agree with your point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/25 04:59:52
2013/11/25 05:48:54
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
UruksDreamToo wrote: I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
Just as long as Prodos make sure none of their backers somehow mistake this artwork as any kind of representation of the finished product, right?
Andilus Greatsword wrote: They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
At a bare minimum they should not have received the blue filter, which gives the false impression that these are 3d renders and not preexisting artworks. And it's perfectly possible for more than one wrong solution to exist - if Defiance Games cannot afford to give you your product without ripping off their suppliers, that does not mean that either option is acceptable.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/11/25 11:21:19
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games
RiTides wrote: People have been asking for "packs", like Predators and their clear versions, etc. It'd certainly be nice but I'm not holding my breath, it'll just help my pledge go further if they do add them.
I think a discounted Predator + Clear Predator pack for each of the predators, and three pack of Clear Predators matching the ones in the board game at a discount would be fantastic. I'm not sure it is something Prodos is going to do. We haven't seen them offer discounts/bundles yet. Their way of handling it seems to be give a pledge level X more credit. That has merit, but the 'Bundle Deal' or 'Discount Pack', from a marketing perspective has some advantages.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/25 11:21:33
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Life would be so much easier if the gun wasn't jumped all the time, but then it'd be a bit boring. Imagine a world where people managed to steer clear of their immediate reactions until they had all the facts straight. Unfathomable. 
but I'm not holding my breath, it'll just help my pledge go further if they do add them.
. We're going to have a blast with it... whether these 3 guys ran a perfect campaign is really not going to play into my enjoyment of these models at all.
