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So, first it was "accidentally" removed, now it was deliberate?

 Grumpae wrote:
...snip...

So... I think there was no accident. I now believe that Fox made them take down the page due to negative comments directed at them.

Thoughts?

Hmm, sounds valid.
I am losing faith in this KS by the minute...

It might be that Fox just aren't familiar with the vitriolic tone that some of this hobby's forums and public places can take (although one would have thought that if they had ever been involved with a computer game, they would have seen much worse?)

I still wouldn't be overly concerned by this, the miniatures and game are made and aren't going to be stopped over something so trivial. Although, this won't be doing any favours for Prodos' sales...

Disturbing Avatar Mr Pacific - I still shudder somewhat when I watch the facehugger scenes with Mr Hurt...

Haha, thanks, yes I do too! Don't think anything else in the series matches it..

Heh, so the message we should take away from this is that haters are the reason we can't have nice things.

Daaaaaam. I hear the Internet is full of those!

I really don't like the dishonesty.

What dishonesty ?

Do you think Prodos is lying about it being taken down by accident?

(as opposed to them messing things up while playing about with the page)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
What dishonesty ?

Do you think Prodos is lying about it being taken down by accident?

(as opposed to them messing things up while playing about with the page)

Well,accidentally was the initial message but then:'

Prodos Games Ltd says:
As you may be aware we have removed the ‘Alien vs Predator Board Game’ Kickstarter page.

Followed by

 Grumpae wrote:


Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Nov 27, 2014
Report Spam
We are trying, however some backer comments/info must be edited. We will keep you guys updated. Sorry for inconvenience. You are more than welcome to join our Forum page, were we have a bit more control over the written content. Thanks.

Seems to indicate there was no accident, and that they don't really intend to bring the KS page back.

So yeah, I question their integrity. It would not be the first time they have been less that honest and forthcoming.

I received the following letter in my email today at 10:13 AM PST:

As you may be aware we have removed the ‘Alien vs Predator Board Game’ Kickstarter page.

We recognise that the closed site holding page says that there is an IP issue with this project. Unfortunately Kickstarter do not allow any other default page.

Please be assured though that the Game is still in development (we are in the latter stages of licensor approvals) and we will continue to keep you updated.

These updates will continue via the Kickstarter email list and via our website newsletter. You can also join our official forum at forum.prodosgames.com and follow us on Facebook (www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd) or Twitter (@ProdosGames).

The pledge manager will remain open until shortly after the final products are shown, therefore allowing you to continue to adjust the products you have selected. You will receive due notice of closure of the Pledge Manager one week before it closes via the newsletter and your KS email.

Keep an eye on your email for updates.

If you have any queries or questions, please don’t hesitate to contact Prodos Games customer services manager at agata.mazurek@prodos.co.uk.

Thank you again for your support
Prodos Games LTD

Yeah Im inclined to believe that its a bs cover story theyre trying to sell. WHatever, as long as I get my sith soon.

Sorry Orlando, and please don't take this as a slight against you, but this sounds really suss. While I'm not doubting we'll get our stuff, there's no way I'd put more cash into this or recommend anyone else doing so.
This most worrying thing is that's it's possible for KS creators to delete their own page along with the ability for backers to communicate with each other. Surely that can't be as easy as, whoops.

You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?

It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.

 Pacific wrote:
You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?

It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.

I think the implication is not that Prodos are trying to do a runner with our cash - clearly that would be difficult for them, but that they have been less than honest with their reasoning behind the current situation. Given the number of other times they've been less than forthcoming with the truth over the course of this project - 3D terrain redesigns (still not forthcoming), clear predators, young bloods, pre-xmas delivery (or not), delivery won't be in waves, then it will - box first, then it will but it will be figures firt and before Xmas (but they haven't closed the PM yet, so given we're now at the start of December they stand no chance of delivering a bean before Xmas), rules that were promised and then didn't appear for 6 months, promised updates that never happened etc etc etc, the question is why would we automatically believe them this time round?

But let's assume for 5 minutes that the IP message on KS is nothing more than a clerical error brought about by Prodos requesting the removal of the two inactive dummy projects. Let's assume that Kickstarter miss-understood their request and hid the active project instead - lets's assume that KS would even do that - hide a project that is active and yet to deliver - let's also assume that Kickstarter have absolutely no way of doing this other than to put up an IP Dispute message despite the fact that there is no IP dispute (apparently). Now that's an awful lot of assumption .... and not a single bit of it explains why, at the same time, Prodos stripped every single image that had anything to do with the project off their Facebook sites. Every single one. Note - they didn't just delete all images on the page - they left all the fanboy stuff as far as we can see, they only removed their images or any images that others had posted of the AvP product. Kickstarter obviously didn't have a hand in that - it was Prodos, and only Prodos (or their representatives).

At one point Prodos claimed that the removal of Facebook images was a panic reaction when they saw the IP message on KS. They didn't know what was happening so they panicked. Don't you think, if everything was fine and dandy between them and Fox, they might have picked a phone up and spoken to their partner (and IP holder) before such a knee jerk reaction? Why strip images off Facebook if you don't know why the IP message is up on KS? Why not wait until you receive an explanation of the situation from KS and/or Fox? Fox are one of the largest holders of this sort of IP in the world. If it was a third party company trying to stick the boot in (as some have postulated) I very much doubt Fox would have nothing to say - they'd stand their ground and then swat the 3rd party like a fly, so the message on KS has to be nothing more than a clerical error (really?) or Fox themselves.

If you believe the first event - the KS story, then the Facebook story makes no sense. Actually the FB story makes no sense whichever way you spin it. Together they add up to some sort of cease and desist being issued by the IP holder. That they still - 36 hours later - haven't replaced a single image - no "here's photos of our product line taken at XYZ, we're working on other images" or whatever, to me suggests that they are not being allowed to, and since such imagery posted would strongly suggest everything is fine with Fox and the IP, the lack of it also strongly suggests that all is not fine.

So are Prodos being honest about what's happening here? I don't think so.
Are they intending to defraud us? No - I don't believe that either
Can they tell us what's really happening? Evidently not.

My view is that something has happened with the relationship between Prodos and Fox that has potentially caused Fox to pull the plug. I'm hoping they haven't, and I'm certainly hoping there are still avenues of dialog between the two companies, but something must have happened. There's just no other explanation that makes any sense or holds up to any scrutiny. I believe there is a game. We've seen most of the models - and even seen those completed - thousands of them. We've seem most of the other components, we've seen the rules. The game exists. That doesn't necessarily mean it is a game that Fox are prepared to put their name behind any longer for whatever reason (I'd suggest they are very very precious as to what is released with their name on it), and so they could have pulled the plug entirely or be renegotiating the licencing agreement - who knows.

Lastly - a thought about money. Prodos collected about 375k from the KS (less fees) and a very significant further amount so far from the pledge manager. There's rarely a great deal of profit in these things, and they've had expensive redesigns to do with some components. My guess is they've spent most of that cash in the design and manufacture process. If this project really has gone to hell in a handcart, they would have to find funds from elsewhere to refund backers. I suspect as a company they are asset rich rather than cash rich - just not big enough to be cash rich. This sort of problem could potentially bankrupt them.

I hope everything I've written above turns out to be incorrect analysis, but they aren't doing much to convince me otherwise right now.

I'm starting to regret backing this one and will freely admit that I was overwhelmed with "shiny" syndrome at the cool models. I backed it knowing that people weren't that happy with Prodos' handling of Warzone's KS, and now I'm starting to see why.

Communication has been poor, and while I don't believe they are planning to skip town with the cash, I do get the feeling that they aren't in control and my cash is at more of a risk than I'd like. This is exacerbated by the latest saga over the KS page, and there seems to be a purge of stuff on the facebook page too along with a general lack of communication from anyone at Prodos.

Having to strip pictures from everywhere on the web for some basic IP communication issues, and kill the KS page (or at least keep it killed) to remove unhappy comments smacks of incompetence, and I don't like to tie up chucks of money with incompetent people.

The models look gorgeous, but I'm beginning to wish I'd waited for retail.

As to KS only having the 'IP' issues screen to put up for a removed project, that I believe

(having seen project creators asking to have failed and unlaunched projects removed and being told they can't)

it's not so much that there are no other screens to use, it's that KS does not remove anything except under legal threat where they might be liable for something which is why they have an IP screen

but

I'd not spotted all the AVP stuff on facebook had gone (and the AVP section of the website is now totally gone rather than just being empty as it was when this broke)

and it is a bit worrying that now Prodos 'know' this was just a KS mix-up they've not put it all back up by now

Do I still think this started with a screw-up by Prodos ?

yes I do (although I wonder now if it was one of their own comments that had to go perhaps with a link to something they'd not had the ok to show which caused them to make an incoherent request to KS that resulted in the IP screen)

but the faster they get the approved images back up and the appropriate bit of their website reopened the happier I'll be

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Do I still think this started with a screw-up by Prodos ?

yes I do (although I wonder now if it was one of their own comments that had to go perhaps with a link to something they'd not had the ok to show which caused them to make an incoherent request to KS that resulted in the IP screen)

Prodos have blamed Fox a number of times for the delays in getting the product out or the delays in showing us this or that component. It's always Fox that's to blame. Maybe they've decided they don't like being criticised by their licence holder any more - let's face it, biting the boss is rarely good business practice.

 Pacific wrote:
You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?

It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.

That KS should make it impossible for idiots to delete their own project.

Joyboozer wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?

It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.

That KS should make it impossible for idiots to delete their own project.

I'm thinking they have, which means this really IS an IP dispute ....

There are countless cases of projects that failed for one reason or another, some of which I'm quite sure the creators would hide if they could. Keeping them on file and viewable means potential backers can look back through a company's history and make a more informed choice. That would be one reason why KS would not want creators to remove redundant projects.

It could be that Fox is not okay with some of the pre-approval prototypes displayed on the KS page / updates. Prodos said they reported their own project, and likely were hoping for a "happier" takedown message to comply with Fox, but this is the only option. Does seem very amateur, though!

I'm not sure what to think here. I don't believe them to be shysters or trying to rip us off. I just don't think that there is the correct ammount of transparancy in their communications and actions. Back in August I recieved a private message from Prodos on Kickstarter, that I was asked to keep to myself, and in the spirit of that I won't copy and post that message here, however, I do want to share on tiny piece of it. They mentioned that they were at that time already in trouble with Fox over negative backers comments that could be damaging to Fox's reputation. That is one of the reasons I can't believe that story about the accidental removal of the page. Adding to that the news about the Facebook removal of pictures, etc., make me now worry about when and if we are able to get this game now. I don't see how Fox can hold Prodos accountable for backers comments either positive or negative. I wonder if it may of had something to do with one of Prodos' own comments on the delays? Either way, its all speculation. Prodos' refusal to communicate in any kind of clear way makes it really hard to know what is going on. I really don't believe that we can do anything other than wait and see, and hope for the best!

Not that my memory is great or anything, but the negative comments I remember reading in the comments section (and the ones I remember typing) were either disparaging of Prodos and their poor communications/poor decisions, or when critical of Fox, were generally piggybacking/replying to what Prodos had posted (where they either implied Fox was to blame or actually blamed Fox for issues).

I believe if Prodos had been better at communicating from the get go, the issues of negativity may have still risen, but nowhere near the level they did.

Honestly the current situation is a good example. An upfront explanation before the action would have mitigated the speculation and backlash.

"We're going to take down the KS page and FB images because speculation and comments are causing issues with our final approval process. We'll continue to update you via XXXXX and the project is moving forward with a new estimated completion of YYYY. That new estimate is subject to change due to the following factors A, B, C, D; and maybe even other factors we don't know about yet, BUT we will keep you informed."

I find it very suspicious that their explanations as posted here in the thread involved telling folks that to join their forum where they can moderate comments better. That twice repeated tidbit has nothing to do with an "accidental" taking down of the KS page. The apparent removal of everything AVP from other public outlets is further evidence that something beyond just a "whoopsie, did I do that?" happened.

I agree with CptJake - having read an awful lot of what was written in the comments section, I can't recall anything that was particularly damaging to Fox's reputation. Sure there has been criticism of the way Prodos has run the kickstarter, largely revolving around issues of poor communication, but seriously, most kickstarters have that. Any criticism of Fox has mostly been about the delays, and we only know (or rather assume) that the delays are at least in part Fox's fault because Prodos have gone to great pains to tell us so.

Besides, even if Fox had got real grief over this KS, they have thicker skins than that. You find me any forum that discusses any part of the 21st Century Fox stable of companies, and I'll find you a post that levels a complaint at them. Whether it be how bad their US news coverage is, or how they cancelled Firefly after just one series, Fox has never been one to worry too much about getting slated, they just keep going on with the business of making money. If they tried to censor anyone who's ever had a bad word to say about them, there'd be so many law suits it would be unreal. A quick glance from them at the comments sections and various forums would show them very quickly that while there are a percentage of backers who are upset with one thing or another, pretty much all backers are largely happy with most of the product, and all are eager to get the game. They have a captured fan base of people who want the product rather than a baying mob hoping they fail and die in a fire. That's kinda the thing about KS - people back a project because they want to help the project succeed and they want to share in the benefits, not because they intrinsically hate it.

So imho it isn't that. It's far more likely to be to do with things Prodos have said about Fox. They've been very negative at times and given the two have a business relationship, that does reflect very badly (arguably on both).

It's actually quite insulting that Prodos have insinuated that the current situation might be the result of backers' actions. Not content with being critical of Fox, they are now critical of us.

and as you say, they still fail to communicate effectively.

In slightly related news, Amazon (US) has the Alien Anthology 6 disc set on Blue Ray on sale today. If you want to update those old VHS tapes to more modern tech, now is the time.

Jake

Wow that is an absolute steal at that price...I've got the films on blu-ray, but its the basic 'directors cut' versions.

Interesting comments there biggusdoggus and well reasoned - hopefully we will see more on the communications front, have to agree that it has been abysmal.

Wonder how much of it is the fact that it's primarily a Polish company, and the whole language/culture difference? I'm just looking for causes here..

I mean looking at the company sizes, Prodos is actually bigger in terms of numbers (staff) than Mantic, yet the way each company has handled the comms for their Kickstarters (aside from anything else), as well as just a general level of professionalism, is absolutely incomparable. And Prodos have the massive license..

 CptJake wrote:
In slightly related news, Amazon (US) has the Alien Anthology 6 disc set on Blue Ray on sale today. If you want to update those old VHS tapes to more modern tech, now is the time.

Jake

Still got mine on DVD.. and in a 25th Anniversary Alien head

Not sure about that bit above the neck, but otherwise it's pretty sweet.

Gotta admit... that is a cool DVD case. It's much better than the Halo helmet that only fit SPARTAN kitty cats! My best one so far is the first transformers movie case. It was a pretty disappointing movie but the DVD case actually transformed into a robot itself.

" Grumpae wrote:
...snip...

So... I think there was no accident. I now believe that Fox made them take down the page due to negative comments directed at them."

Rather suspect their is more to that statement than anything else with some of the KS trolls demanding the game go in a certain direction both game and image wise.

Prodos for a small company and their own range IP, then they could do this and tailor to what most people want, 'you cannot change everything or please everyone'.

However the aspect of Fox changes that, as its not one person they would have to go through, but execs, art directors, IP Lawyers, ect. . Every time a change occurs it goes through this process. And they are like any company jealous of protecting image.

However the 'take all comments to the forum' does start to smack a little of possible issues with some posters, but with a legal team like Fox would have suspect that they have more than one penalty clause about discussing issues over some subjects. Great to keep matters that can affect share prices for Fox but not so much when it comes to a close nit community like the gaming one, where we want to know it all.

Pshaw. Fox made Alien: Resurrection and let Atari release Alien for the Jaguar. They're used to negativity. It's not a conspiracy.

so... am I still getting my stuff? Previously Prodos had insinuated that they'd start shipping in waves by now if things hadnt been straightened out over the last few items... I've yet to hear a single word on how thats all coming along and we're 22/23 days from christmas.

Despite what people would have you believe, yes, you are.