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 Pacific wrote:
If I had pledged £550 on this and still not received any goods I would be considering legal action.

What the feth is wrong with them, at the very least you would have thought they would have had the sense to placate the big spenders.

The idea of legal action might have a certain appeal and with them being in the EU like myself it would even possible.
But the cost that would bring should also be considered. Sure as hell I don't want to justify what they did and do and will do, but that could mean losing more money, than actual gaining, since they (partly) shipped some games to backers.
Regarding the part with big spenders, I must object. As stated before, this was joint effort, not the deed of those who paid for more than a copy of the game and a few add-ons.
Prodos should placate all of their backers - without all of us, this game would've either never seen the light of day or considerably later ... according from their present speed somewhere around 2020.

 Pacific wrote:
If I had pledged £550 on this and still not received any goods I would be considering legal action.

If I had pledged 550GBP on this, my wife would have considered legal action.

I'm loving that...not at all.

This thread is contentious enough without "Open Door, Lob Grenade, Close Door" type of shenanigans.

 cincydooley wrote:
If I had pledged 550GBP on this, my wife would have considered legal action.

In our case, wife was the one pledging and I was the one putting in more money for the add-ons.

 Moses Bad wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
If I had pledged 550GBP on this, my wife would have considered legal action.

In our case, wife was the one pledging and I was the one putting in more money for the add-ons.

Oh my!

I'll admit i'm a little jealous!

Well Prodos have had a week to sort themselves out, as there has been no communications or updates I have reported them to Trading Standards.

For other backers, a bit of a wall of text, but here is the Citizans Advice information on where you stand, with some support to backers outside the UK and legal bits. If you are happy to wait and hope that Prodos deliver, then please skip...

This is rumour control...

1). Prodos now is in breach of UK distance selling legislation as their contact number is not connected. Likewise, I don’t think the postal address of the small industrial unit is their company headquarters, so another breach. I’ve made enquiries as to activity at the postal address, so I hope to be able to confirm whether or not Prodos are actually using the site.

2). Concerned backers should contact UK Citizens Advice either by phone or e-mail. At the current time, this would be civil dispute and there is no legal requirement for Trading Standards to investigate. However, weight of complaints play a key part of this, so the more complaints made to Citizens Advice the more chance there is of Trading Standards investigating and taking action.

3). As Prodos is not communicating and does not appear to be sending the product out, this should now be considered as a breach of contract. The terms and conditions of both the Kickstarter and Prodo should be taken into consideration. However, via the T&C’s of Kickstarter we the backers have fulfilled outside of the contract by fully funding the Kickstarter. Prodos is now required to deliver as per the Kickstarter project outline (so copies of the game and related add ons etc). As there is physical product, then the legal terms, conditions and timescales as outlined in the UK distance selling legislation are also relevant. As such Prodos, now have to either honour the contract as agreed or return you to the position pre contract i.e. return your money. A beach of contact template can be found here. This should be completed and two copies produced, one to be sent via registered post to Prodos headquarters and one to be kept on file.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/taking-action-about-consumer-problems/making-a-complaint/write-a-letter/list_of_sample_letters/

4). Backers should contact Trading Standards via Citizens Advice, this can be via phone or e-mail (for those outside of the UK), they take the details, provide initial advice and will pass on the complaint to, in this case Warwickshire Trading Standards and your own local authority Trading Standards if UK based. You will need Prodos address as this is required. Now at this stage it is deemed as civil dispute and there is no legal requirement for Trading Standards to investigate, unless of course you have had a chat and a coffee with your local head of trading standards. However, weight of complaints play a key part of this, so the more complaints made to Citizens Advice the more chance there is of Trading Standards investigating and taking action.

5). In the UK if you paid on your credit card and it was more than £100 then your credit card company is “jointly and severally liable for any breach of contract or misrepresentation by the company” under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. Now you will need to go via your cards complaint process as well, so double check.

6). However, Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act also applies to foreign transactions as well as goods bought online, by telephone or mail order for delivery to the UK from overseas. Full details can be found here along with further guidance for amounts under the £100 figure.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

7). If this is unsuccessful then you can escalate to the financial omboardsman for no cost, I’m presuming this is for UK individuals but it would be worth checking with Citizens Advice for those outside of the UK.

8). If at the end of this you are unsuccessful or there is a need to take matters further, that is then via the County Court, which Citizens Advice can assist with. However, I haven’t explored how that is applicable to backers outside of the UK, it might need to be a group action or similar.

... seriously?
Going from disgruntled (rightfully) to small child tantrum?

I'm no lawyer, but I'd say, paragraph 3 will break your neck.
True, shipping to backers hasn't taken priority for them. But, and I say BUT - they do ship, did, whichever. All any court has to find is one backer that got something and to be true, there is at least one. And if you don't believe me, the backing account was/is Andrea. As dusgruntled as I am about the behaviour, the delays, the zip of silence, I will not lie and say we received nothing.

 Moses Bad wrote:
... seriously?
Going from disgruntled (rightfully) to small child tantrum?

I'm no lawyer, but I'd say, paragraph 3 will break your neck.
True, shipping to backers hasn't taken priority for them. But, and I say BUT - they do ship, did, whichever. All any court has to find is one backer that got something and to be true, there is at least one. And if you don't believe me, the backing account was/is Andrea. As dusgruntled as I am about the behaviour, the delays, the zip of silence, I will not lie and say we received nothing.

Not to mention a not insignificant number of backers have received product....

 cincydooley wrote:
Not to mention a not insignificant number of backers have received product....

Mh, I don't know. I really don't. Like I said, we know zip about the vast majority. Afterwards online shop customers don't apply
There are so many things, they could've done to make this a better experience for everybody ...

Small child tantrum, an interesting view. I'd hope that it is more an outline of actions that people can take using consumer law. But if you want me to scream until I'm sick, I might need a bit of a run up. Again, if you want to sit and wait, please do so. But in the absence of any information on product or timescales you may wish to start taking steps.

The above is from Citizans Advice in the UK and is the legal position. I spent a constructive half an hour discussing the ins and outs with one of their advisors. Whilst it is dependant on exact specifics it is a starter for ten.

Now, Prodos are free to demonstrate that they have sent products out and they would need to also demonstrate that they have fully met their contractual obligations to all backers. Yes it is a bit hazy, but again if you wish to start looking at your options here are some pointers.

Now let's see, what I see.
1900+ backers with roughly (and benefit ofd the doubt) 100 (I think it's far less, but I'll be generous) writing in the forums I frequent.
Of these 100 a few are grinding their teeth, are less than happy how this is handled and rightfully so.
Of these 100 a few are overly supporting for the company that has taken our money and doesn't seem to be obliged too much with that tid bit of fullfilling their part of the deal. Their problem.
Of these 100 a few are stomping their feet, would lovingly lob that mentioned grenade and get even, pull charges or maybe beat Prodos' staff to a pulp if encountered.

No matter how you twist it and turn it, that leaves roughly 1800 backers you know nothing about - like I told you, like you accepted.
A little number juggeling: Now imagine you are a company that has fethed up seriously - not so bad you go bankrupt, but your investors are utterly pissed at you.
Let's assume, of those 1900 backers, only 10% write an email every two days, demanding an answer - that's 190 emails every two days.
I don't know about you, but even with the best intentions my happiness to answer them or give them the answers they deserve or an answer that soothes them dwindles rappidly.
Ok, now we handled their less than stellar email answering.
Let's get to updates.
For months nobody was happy about their updates, again, rightfully so. Would you want to put out weekly updates you just know will generate hundreds of mails full of negative feedback, justified or not? I doubt it.
Updates done, moving on to shipping.
To call it slow would be an understatement.
They have packing errors, but those happen with the biggest companies as well. That little fact they shipp out online shop orders is beyond anything I can put into words, said so before and I stand with that. There hasn't even been news about their UK distributor talk or the US and I dare say, that's where the bulk of the games is going to, or should go to.

OK, so far, so good.
Up to now, all I've seen are a few less than happy backers, me among them.
One dude ranting like he wants to start a witchhunt and crucify all of Prodos' staff but is just words.
And then there's you.

One, out of 1900+ people.

You know, it can be mere coincedence, but there's this Big Jim V on the Prodos forums giving out their updates and tryed to soothe the angry backers. Struck me a little odd.
Go ahead, make your claims. Go to them eye to eye - in an office or at a con. You can do whatever makes you happy.

yeah,
I'm equally unhappy and don't like being treated like gak by prodos.

Their continuous lies and mistruths have worn me down... but I waited.
We would get our game 1 month before retail... not great, but that's OK I guess.

Then they said they would be selling to Stores at the same time as shipping to backers, FOX contractual obligations??? Crap... but fine I'm still getting the game 'soon'...

The game hits retail.
...
...
But yet I'm still waiting...

Prodos are selling it on their webstore and delivering within 5 days! so their online store isn't having problems at Calais...

I'm still waiting.

online stores selling stock cheap on eBay.

I'm still waiting...

feth it I'm done waiting...

I've had enough I want my stuff or my money back the advice given above is great.

Panic...

A fair point that we are unsighted on exact numbers, however, I'd go with the lack of posts about backers receiving their product. The only"look at this cool stuff" that I have seen has been from those either pick up copies from a small stock at show or how have bought them. We could argue numbers all day, but I'd suggest that we are both in the dark about who has actually received anything.

As for my "ranting like I want to start a witch hunt and crucify all Prodos staff", well I think you might be a tad far of the mark. As I say if you want to start looking at issues here they are. Yes I've reported them to traded standards, nothing wrong with that at all, in fact a sensible move if you wish in future to progress a claim. As for the "pin out, grenade in" approach, yes it could look that way, but as I've exhausted the gentle routes, sometimes you need to push a little harder.

As for suggesting that my messages here suggest some form of wish to go "eye to eye in an office or at con", can I politely suggest that you are very wide of the mark.

I can understand that Prodos might be snowed under with e-mails, but being unable to post one update, put one message on social media. I'm sorry but that smacks either of total incompetence or there is no one there.

As for my user name being similar to someone on the Prodos messages boards, that is a coincidence. I use the same name on TMP, Frothers, Wargames Web Site etc. In fact given sometime this weekend, I'll hopefully post in other sections, just to avoid being the "foot stomping one" on the AvP thread.

 Moses Bad wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Not to mention a not insignificant number of backers have received product....

Mh, I don't know. I really don't. Like I said, we know zip about the vast majority. Afterwards online shop customers don't apply
There are so many things, they could've done to make this a better experience for everybody ...

And I don't think they disagree with that at all.

Regardless, there are at least the 100 people that got their copies at GenCon, and the additional folks in the EU that have received them. Any notion of a "breach of contract" is absurd, if only because they are making a good faith effort (regardless if how "good' you think their effort it) to get product into people's hands.

And then there's the whole fact that Kickstarter doesn't actually promise you any kind of physical product....

But then again I couldn't care less if they sell it at retail first. I don't support KS projects because I need to be first...

Big Jim wrote:
A fair point that we are unsighted on exact numbers, however, I'd go with the lack of posts about backers receiving their product. The only"look at this cool stuff" that I have seen has been from those either pick up copies from a small stock at show or how have bought them. We could argue numbers all day, but I'd suggest that we are both in the dark about who has actually received anything.

As for my "ranting like I want to start a witch hunt and crucify all Prodos staff", well I think you might be a tad far of the mark. As I say if you want to start looking at issues here they are. Yes I've reported them to traded standards, nothing wrong with that at all, in fact a sensible move if you wish in future to progress a claim. As for the "pin out, grenade in" approach, yes it could look that way, but as I've exhausted the gentle routes, sometimes you need to push a little harder.

As for suggesting that my messages here suggest some form of wish to go "eye to eye in an office or at con", can I politely suggest that you are very wide of the mark.

I can understand that Prodos might be snowed under with e-mails, but being unable to post one update, put one message on social media. I'm sorry but that smacks either of total incompetence or there is no one there.

As for my user name being similar to someone on the Prodos messages boards, that is a coincidence. I use the same name on TMP, Frothers, Wargames Web Site etc. In fact given sometime this weekend, I'll hopefully post in other sections, just to avoid being the "foot stomping one" on the AvP thread.

Which corrolate with the lack of people in forums. I don't say you are unreasonably frustrated, I only argue the validility of the claim, they haven't shipped. Well, I know I have received. Tre, one out of 1900+ is a very low number, but again, in the dark.

Actually, that witchhunt remark wasn't directed at you at all, which might explain, why you feel it off the mark.
Same the grenade thing.

Ah believe me, I've worked CS and it was an experience I wish upon noone. I didn't even dare to take a week off, for nobody was touching my customers (one of few speaking english) so I had an avalanche waiting for me every time.
That's why I said again and again, so many oportunities for Prodos, none taken.

 cincydooley wrote:
And I don't think they disagree with that at all.

Regardless, there are at least the 100 people that got their copies at GenCon, and the additional folks in the EU that have received them. Any notion of a "breach of contract" is absurd, if only because they are making a good faith effort (regardless if how "good' you think their effort it) to get product into people's hands.

And then there's the whole fact that Kickstarter doesn't actually promise you any kind of physical product....

But then again I couldn't care less if they sell it at retail first. I don't support KS projects because I need to be first...

Could be, but it doesn't help, if they show no effort in changing that.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think absolutely nobody here cares for people who had to collect themselves. Sure, backer got stuff, but they had to do it on their own. Sorry, in my book collecting doesn't add to shipped.
No, KS did not - Prodos did and that's all what this is about.

 cincydooley wrote:
Any notion of a "breach of contract" is absurd, if only because they are making a good faith effort (regardless if how "good' you think their effort it) to get product into people's hands.

And then there's the whole fact that Kickstarter doesn't actually promise you any kind of physical product....

But then again I couldn't care less if they sell it at retail first. I don't support KS projects because I need to be first...

Now the key issue, is that contract is with the company producing the item, not Kickstarter. Now a failure of a project at the funding stage and then a company running off with the cash would be a bit of a legal grey area. However, if a company asks you to back a project, which then fully funds, that under UK law (as I understand from the experts) is a contract. They ask you to fund for an identified outcome and delivery, you do, they have the cash and you have a contract.

Now in this situation, it's funded (we the backers have done ourside of the contract), Prodos have produced said item but haven't / don't distribute. That is a clear breach under UK law, full stop.

Now without any form of communication we are in a bit of a pickle, if you are a unicorn and raindows kind of person then there is evidence that Prodos are fulfilling their side however slowly. Well that's super, nothing to worry about. If you are a glass half empty person, then the lack of communications and poor distribution are a great concern.

However, as you are not a backer, then I guess you must find this all very interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Moses Bad wrote:

Which corrolate with the lack of people in forums. I don't say you are unreasonably frustrated, I only argue the validility of the claim, they haven't shipped. Well, I know I have received. Tre, one out of 1900+ is a very low number, but again, in the dark.

Actually, that witchhunt remark wasn't directed at you at all, which might explain, why you feel it off the mark.
Same the grenade thing.

Ah believe me, I've worked CS and it was an experience I wish upon noone. I didn't even dare to take a week off, for nobody was touching my customers (one of few speaking english) so I had an avalanche waiting for me every time.
That's why I said again and again, so many oportunities for Prodos, none taken.

Not a problem, Moses Bad and reading back I misunderstood the comments.

There is a skill to CS and it's not easy, likewise communications are a nightmare to get right. But as you say, Prodos have had all the opportunities to sort out the information and have taken none of them. Hence the lack of a coherent understanding.

Big Jim wrote:


However, as you are not a backer, then I guess you must find this all very interesting.

I am a backer. Full st op.

I have my base game. Full stop.

 cincydooley wrote:

Big Jim wrote:


However, as you are not a backer, then I guess you must find this all very interesting.

I am a backer. Full st op.

I have my base game. Full stop.

Yeah, but you are also one of the lucky few who picked it up at a convention. People unable to do so (at least in the US) are still waiting.

 CptJake wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Big Jim wrote:


However, as you are not a backer, then I guess you must find this all very interesting.

I am a backer. Full st op.

I have my base game. Full stop.

Yeah, but you are also one of the lucky few who picked it up at a convention. People unable to do so (at least in the US) are still waiting.

Yes, I understand that.

But it supports a notion, should one want to argue it, that Prodos is making a good faith effort to deliver their product, and is in breach of exactly nothing per Kickstarter's Terms of Use (Section 4).

It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.

Am I fortunate that I have my copy? I guess. Would I be super concerned if I didn't have it yet? Nope. While everything hasn't been perfect, Prodos has been communicative and has remained in the public eye by attending conventions and regularly updating their FB posts and replies.

So again, 'good faith effort.' I see it here. Clearly.

Again, I really don't see any point in going the legal route. The only benefit that I can see is it makes a person feel like they are doing something. I can't see it improving shipping speeds, or their incredible ineptitude when it comes to communication, orginization, and business acumen.

The way I see it, is that we will eventually get our stuff, it will take way too long to get, and many of us (not I) will not want the game by then, however they will fulfill their obligations to us. They will have lost the majority of the people that would have helped make this game a true retail success, and thus eliminated any profitable revenue stream from this venture.

The future of Prodos will most likely be making awesome minis for other more successful companies, and getting out of production of games entirely. The biggest question I have about all of this is why? How for feth's sake can such a (tragic) comedy of errors ever have come to be? Every time they take a step backwards of spew out obvious bs, I just shake my head. Every challange can be seen as a problem, or an opportunity, it seems they consistantly choose the opportunity of making another problem for themselves. I used to wait for them to realize this and improve, I have now given up on that. I really think its in their best interest to get out of dealing with the public in anyway, and just stick to what they actually do best. Make mini's!

Big Jim wrote:
Well Prodos have had a week to sort themselves out, as there has been no communications or updates I have reported them to Trading Standards.

:golfclap:

Seriously, good on you for doing this. While it may not improve things in the short run, holding companies accountable can only have positive long term effects.

BTW, the only thing I am surprised about is that you did not also alert Fox Legal that their licensee is in breach of contract, and that you have referred said breach to your local authorities. If Fox Legal gets enough notices, they have a lot more ability to compel Prodos to deliver.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Moses Bad wrote:
Of these 100 a few are grinding their teeth, are less than happy how this is handled and rightfully so.
Of these 100 a few are stomping their feet, would lovingly lob that mentioned grenade and get even, pull charges or maybe beat Prodos' staff to a pulp if encountered.

Go ahead, make your claims. Go to them eye to eye - in an office or at a con. You can do whatever makes you happy.

From your numbers, you're saying the remaining 1800+ don't care about getting the stuff they paid for? They're basically all OK with flushing their money down the toiletin exchange for a bunch of empty promises?

The likely outcome is that a number of reports forces Prodos to be accountable, like they were supposed to be from the get-go. If Prodos demonstrates substantive Good Faith Effort toward fulfilling the contract, they can probably avoid legal action and investigation, which is what everybody really wants.

They could also just pull the license, and then you get nothing.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


BTW, the only thing I am surprised about is that you did not also alert Fox Legal that their licensee is in breach of contract, and that you have referred said breach to your local authorities. If Fox Legal gets enough notices, they have a lot more ability to compel Prodos to deliver.

That's the next option, but hopefully it won't be required as will luck the trading standards route will give the necessary nudge.

Did you contact this trading standards board every time a video game you've preordered gets delayed?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
From your numbers, you're saying the remaining 1800+ don't care about getting the stuff they paid for? They're basically all OK with flushing their money down the toiletin exchange for a bunch of empty promises?

No, rather they don't participate in Forums or FB or anything at all - every sort of social media is somethig, they don't give a frakk about or, they are someplace entirely else. With the drop of the KS page, some people sort of vanished, because they don't go rummaging in forums.
Like me as an example, I don't care for FB, it can thrive or go to hell, I wouldn't know if my wife wouldn't use it ... and she didn't care for Prodos' FB at all.
I imagine they sure as hell are angry ... but nice how you try to turn my argument around - I did never say, they don't care, all I said is, we know frakk if they received anything.
Please, next time try a little harder or not at all - don't waste my time.
Thank you.

Big Jim wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

BTW, the only thing I am surprised about is that you did not also alert Fox Legal that their licensee is in breach of contract, and that you have referred said breach to your local authorities. If Fox Legal gets enough notices, they have a lot more ability to compel Prodos to deliver.

That's the next option, but hopefully it won't be required as will luck the trading standards route will give the necessary nudge.

Dinosaur as Fox is, they should be aware of the happenings, the bad rep. Which might be just as irrelevant to them. Game hit retail, all they care about. The backers are just a pesk that will vanish sooner or later.
To quote our chanselour "Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland" - "The internet is a whole new turf for all of us", like because old geezers have no clue (as in Fox), nobody does.
Other companies have proven so as well - their whole handling is still absolutely 80s. In my impression, they think the only people customers are talking to, are their friends, if a company frakks up. As if they're not even aware of forums, blogs, FB and whatnot.
I wish you the best of luck with your efforts, but doubt anything will change.

 Cyporiean wrote:
They could also just pull the license, and then you get nothing.

So basically the same as the past year since the original delivery date?

 warboss wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
They could also just pull the license, and then you get nothing.

So basically the same as the past year since the original delivery date?

Aside from several folks getting it already, and no chance of anyone else getting it or a refund.

 cincydooley wrote:
Did you contact this trading standards board every time a video game you've preordered gets delayed?

In the UK you'd use trading standards in case where the usual routes for sorting out problems fail. If I had pre ordered an item, the company failed to provide the item and didn't communicate, then yes I would. The important thing is that they are their to protect the consumer and to provide assurance.

I've backed other kickstarters that have been delayed, but in these cases the companies have maintained constant and clear communications. Yes you need to be sensible and give the companies a chance, but (in my opinion) with no communications, (in my opinion) no product being sent out and the fact that they can't provide a working phone number rings alarm bells for me.

As one of the 'silent' 1800, I am fething ticked off about the nonsense Prodos is pulling. I've been lurking on this forum following this train wreck since Prodos shut down the KS page, but the majority of you have been saying what I would say (and have emailed and messaged Prodos about). I was sympathetic at first, because dealing with corporate suits is no doubt a nightmare. However, I'm tired of the BS and the backers being taken for the ass. I want the items I pledged for, so I can never deal with Prodos directly again. Even having Prodos involved in a project will color my view of potentially backing future kickstarters.

188 copies available on their web shop atm . Wonder if they have tracked delivery could just order all 188 and then put in a paypal claim for them not turning up lol.

Yeah its a joke !i can only hope that the reason they have gone quite is that its all hands to pumps packing up the boxs for you guys .as i didn't have a box game in my pledge just a load of marines I've given up hope of ever seeing them .