Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 CptJake wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:


Just to make it clear, we have agreed to make 100+ sculpts on credit for Hysterical. As for production, nothing is agreed yet.

Let me see if I understand all this.

You went in to debt with the Warzone KS. You ran the AVP KS in part to try to dig out of the Warzone debt hole. That didn't work. You now cannot afford to send out what I and others have paid for quite a while ago.

And now you're doing work for another KS (for a soon to be former employee) on credit.

I would suggest to re-read the update because this is not what we have stated. Maybe this quick, point by point recap will help :

1. WZR KS generated loss due to WAVE shipping not included in calculation.
2. We needed to close loss gap, thus, profit made on AvP was used to cover the waves shipping.
3. AvP would be perfectly OK if we had all item approved in one go, however as we are now decided to make 3 WAVE shipping that will cost us approx. 90k GBP, we need to use our profit to cover this.
4. Why WAVE shipping? because we are getting approval very very slow on bits of product that needs to be, under contract in shops once green-lighted.
5. We could however say to you: we will ship your product to you, all in one shipping, once full range its approved, because you have paid for one shipping... that would mean you would see product in waves in shops before you have even a core set...
6. So, we said, let's take a bullet of 90k GBP, work hard next 4 months to clear this and ship in waves to bakers to make sure we at lest show some sign of "really sorry for this, but this is real business, and we are doing what we can to not piss you of even more"...

Thanks for understanding.

Also, Just wanted to point out that, WZR KS was in 2013, the Warzone line was on general market for more than 1.5 year now and losses, due to split shipping, where closed with retail profit- just to make this clear.

As for Warzone, it was entirely funded by myself, and in 2013 there was no company like Prodos that could provide services on credit.

Copy from other:
Sir, nowadays retail sales/design/3D printing or any other service that makes revenue stream is always supplied on credit.
We only take upfron payment from customers that are starting business with us and we don't know them. Then it goes to at least 30 days credit.
That does not mean that Hyserical has no internal funds, it's just a normal business approach.

It's very common in this industry.

EDIT:
Also to point out, we have been enough long in this industry to know that once you start on KS, just by a mistake of shipping in waves, you have to make another KS to cover the losses, that's not the case for us with AvP, we want to get out of KS and stay away from it, hence the profit use approach ... Otherwise we would have another KS like last year or even a few of them...

EDIT2: Some just told me " Bismarck once said: "Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." maybe I should not talk that much on business and KS...

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

EDIT:
Also to point out, we have been enough long in this industry to know that once you start on KS, just by a mistake of shipping in waves, you have to make another KS to cover the losses,

Seriously?

Did KS and Fox both understand that your AvP KS was in part to pay for your WarZone KS shipping?

You sure as hell did not mention that fact to the AvP backers. I can't help but wonder how prone KS would have been to let you start a new project in part to pay for shipping a previous project. And I wonder how happy Fox would have been knowing you were using AvP funds to pay to ship a previous project.

 CptJake wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

EDIT:
Also to point out, we have been enough long in this industry to know that once you start on KS, just by a mistake of shipping in waves, you have to make another KS to cover the losses,

Seriously?

Did KS and Fox both understand that your AvP KS was in part to pay for your WarZone KS shipping?

You sure as hell did not mention that fact to the AvP backers. I can't help but wonder how prone KS would have been to let you start a new project in part to pay for shipping a previous project. And I wonder how happy Fox would have been knowing you were using AvP funds to pay to ship a previous project.

We could take a bank loan or maybe fund it with my own money.... what difference does it makes? The point is it balanced out with retail sales. End of the story.
HAve you seen any KS stating that the profit ill be used to cover previous KS? No, guess what, in most of the cases they are... ask your self, why a company start 2nd 3rd of 4th KS without clearing obligations from previous KS?

CptJake - You're missing the keyword "profit." They made up a business plan and figured out their profit on running a successful Kickstarter if everything goes according to plan. Prodos planed on using their own profit to pay for shipping of a previous Kickstarter venture.

Now, the fact the AvP business plan went south is more of a problem with working with an IP owned by 20th Century Fox, then trying to cover a KS loss by starting up another.

I give credit to Prodos to continue to stick to try to make backers happy. It is a hopeless battle. For their sake, I hope they receive grace from backers once everyone has received their "wave 1" game box.

I get that everyone is ANGRY, and I'm disappointed that I don't have anything either.

Thank you Prodos for answering our questions and clarifying the issue source!

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

As for Warzone, it was entirely funded by myself, and in 2013 there was no company like Prodos that could provide services on credit.

"962 backers pledged £161,851 to help bring this project to life."

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection/description

 warboss wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

As for Warzone, it was entirely funded by myself, and in 2013 there was no company like Prodos that could provide services on credit.

"962 backers pledged £161,851 to help bring this project to life."

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection/description

No, to make it happen we needed 40 models designed 3d printing painting service and all of that - AND PAID FOR THIS upfront from KS you get funds after 60 days...

Well, kudos for engaging backers somewhere outside your own moderated venues, if nothing else.

...we are getting approval very very slow on bits of product that needs to be, under contract in shops once green-lighted.

Could you be more specific? Is this really just packaging as you seemed to suggest some time back, or is there more there that's not ready/approved yet?

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

No, to make it happen we needed 40 models designed 3d printing painting service and all of that - AND PAID FOR THIS upfront from KS you get funds after 60 days...

14 Days.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

No, to make it happen we needed 40 models designed 3d printing painting service and all of that - AND PAID FOR THIS upfront from KS you get funds after 60 days...

14 Days.

KS was 60 days add 14 days to this... + add, pre-KS development of 2 months that was also paid in upfront.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bolognesus wrote:
Well, kudos for engaging backers somewhere outside your own moderated venues, if nothing else.

...we are getting approval very very slow on bits of product that needs to be, under contract in shops once green-lighted.

Could you be more specific? Is this really just packaging as you seemed to suggest some time back, or is there more there that's not ready/approved yet?

Hi there, all info on approval will be in next update,

Okay, fair. When will that be? Next weekend?

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 JoeRugby wrote:
Prodos First up apologies if you have answered these questions before.

1. If you need profit to afford to ship KS copies and cover the licence renewal, why were you selling the add ons at Essen for less than Kickstarter prices?

We need profit to split shipping into waves, if you could each wave is approx. 10 GBP a parcel, times this 3000 backers * 3 waves that is 90k GBP. License renewal is in 2017 (Rob was confused).

2. How many backers (not boxed game copies) have you shipped the boxed game too. How many backers do you have left to ship too.There were 2093 backers during the campaign (some of these might not have gone in for the boxed game others might have ordered more than one copy.) and then there was the option for others to get in afterwards.

There was in total 2560 copies of AvP game to be produced and shipped. We have covered 1785 out of that,

3. Where are you with approval on the rest of the items?

All miniatures are approved, we are going with packaging. Next month there is another 6 releases.

2. Do the above items constitute all of Wave 2?

Yes and wave 3 as well.

4. Will Any Kickstarter boxes games sent now be sent with the approved minis that are also in people's pledged items?

Yes, with all released.

5. You've said 2.5 -3 months to finish shipping on all 3 waves. So if your not doing the above when will all the boxed games be shipped?

500 received next week, shipped out asap, remaining games with us by the end of the month/beginning with next one.

6. Appreciate if you don't want to answer this, but what is the reminding shipping going to cost you?

Answered above.

Thanks for the answers Prodos but I think here's been a slight misunderstanding of some of my questions

1. I understand why you where selling them at Essen. What I was asking was why were you were selling them at Essen at below retail and Kickstarter price? Surely that's your one opertunity to sell with a monopoly without retailers being able to undercut you?

As your not having to renew your licence till 2017 how will this effect your delivery to us backers? I would think if you don't need to put as much £s aside each month for the licence it should improve delivery times?

2a. Not quite what I was asking for (I was asking backer numbers not boxed game copies)but it's an idea at least. Look forward to hearing that 2285 boxed have been shipped at the end of next week.

3. So all minis are approved including the clear preds and the young bloods? Where are you with approval on the packaging for the rest of the line?

Can I also infer that all remaining items will be released to retail when they are approved and ready to go?

2b. I don't understand your response. Some of these;
Royal Guard, Queen, Crusher, Warriors, Power Loader, Weyland-Yutani Commandos, Predalien and Predator Hell Hounds
Are wave 3 items?

As CURNOW asked can you let us know what minis are in Waves 2 and 3.

Look forward to your response.

 CptJake wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

EDIT:
Also to point out, we have been enough long in this industry to know that once you start on KS, just by a mistake of shipping in waves, you have to make another KS to cover the losses,

Seriously?

Did KS and Fox both understand that your AvP KS was in part to pay for your WarZone KS shipping?

You sure as hell did not mention that fact to the AvP backers. I can't help but wonder how prone KS would have been to let you start a new project in part to pay for shipping a previous project. And I wonder how happy Fox would have been knowing you were using AvP funds to pay to ship a previous project.

To be fair, from what I have heard about a lot of what goes on in the industry, this is a pretty stable platform by comparison..

 grossey wrote:
CptJake - You're missing the keyword "profit." They made up a business plan and figured out their profit on running a successful Kickstarter if everything goes according to plan. Prodos planed on using their own profit to pay for shipping of a previous Kickstarter venture.

Except, there was NO profit. They didn't even take in enough to cover the AvP project. That is why they sold KS pledges afterwards via their web store to try to cover enough for an initial print run. You can't declare 'profit' on a project then claim 'We can't afford to ship your stuff because costs changed'. And clearly, since they had a similar problem with Warzone, they should have had an inkling of an idea their 'plan' wasn't gonn survive contact.


I do see what is happening here. It isn't hard.

I finally got my hands on a retail copy just a couple days ago. Overall I'm pretty impressed with it. The tiles are sturdy and the artwork is great; the rule book is big and in full color; the stat/strat/etc cards seem pretty tough, though I wouldn't want to spill anything on them.
As for the minis themselves, I was quite surprised. The predators were chock full of detail and none of it seemed to be lost in the casting process - even the smart disc, which I auto-assumed would have issues even before I opened the box, was nigh perfect. The stalkers were flawless and a breeze to assemble. The infants did have a couple miscasts, once with the hole where the tail inserts, and a lump on a separate tail - both easy fixes though. I've yet to assemble the marines, but I suspect the flamethrower arm might be miscast. The rest appeared good, but I'll know for sure soon enough.

He means the profit from the warzone sales post avp kickstarter

 Pacific wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

EDIT:
Also to point out, we have been enough long in this industry to know that once you start on KS, just by a mistake of shipping in waves, you have to make another KS to cover the losses,

Seriously?

Did KS and Fox both understand that your AvP KS was in part to pay for your WarZone KS shipping?

You sure as hell did not mention that fact to the AvP backers. I can't help but wonder how prone KS would have been to let you start a new project in part to pay for shipping a previous project. And I wonder how happy Fox would have been knowing you were using AvP funds to pay to ship a previous project.

To be fair, from what I have heard about a lot of what goes on in the industry, this is a pretty stable platform by comparison..

I am pretty sure it is against KS terms to run a campaign to get funds to pay off debts.

I honestly dont think kickstarter gives a gak about anything as long as they get they're cut.

 n815e wrote:
I am pretty sure it is against KS terms to run a campaign to get funds to pay off debts.

Playing a little devils advocate... It isn't per say, it all depends on how you define debts and plan to properly fulfill a KS, as paying a previous debt so that one could fulfill a KS would still meet the criteria. There is nothing that says all funds should or have to be used for Project B and only Project B, they don't enforce, check or audit the fund use. As long progression is made on creating the funded project then they are living up to their agreement. People don't have to agree with the use of the funds or like it, that is part of the users, communication, etc side of things. That is also what determines if they decide to do another KS if backers continue backing.

Most businesses operate in this manner in one method or another. Either they obtain credit or pay out of their pocket the initial prototyping, licensing, etc to start a project. The funding goes to help create a project, make it a reality which could include paying off debt to Project A, so money and profit can be focused to Project B. In some cases creators are paying off debts for what they obtained credit to start a project with as well.

CMoN and Mantic for example all the funds from a KS do not go to just that KS, it is used for other projects and even previous KS. However they have a history to delivering and providing, better communication so people will continue to back them. Some don't because they weren't happy and they won't always agree.

Now if a person only spent the KS funds on paying off debts, but didn't progress or start to fulfill a project then that is where there is an issue and against KS Terms of Use, as well as other issues of possible fraud. In the direction of Prodos, it isn't so much that they have mismanaged funds, that is a given, but also not completely within their control to a degree. They are still actively moving forward attempting to fulfill as seen by people getting pledges. If they were the wrong or right pledges, that is a different story. We don't have to agree or like how they've used it but that comes from not backing them on future projects or other means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
I honestly dont think kickstarter gives a gak about anything as long as they get they're cut.

Yep pretty much that. They are an agent that introduces Person to Project Creator. Once it is funded they don't care. It could effect future projects but anything beyond that is up to the individuals to determine if it was done properly, not done, delivered, not delivered and what action they will take in the future.

 n815e wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

EDIT:
Also to point out, we have been enough long in this industry to know that once you start on KS, just by a mistake of shipping in waves, you have to make another KS to cover the losses,

Seriously?

Did KS and Fox both understand that your AvP KS was in part to pay for your WarZone KS shipping?

You sure as hell did not mention that fact to the AvP backers. I can't help but wonder how prone KS would have been to let you start a new project in part to pay for shipping a previous project. And I wonder how happy Fox would have been knowing you were using AvP funds to pay to ship a previous project.

To be fair, from what I have heard about a lot of what goes on in the industry, this is a pretty stable platform by comparison..

I am pretty sure it is against KS terms to run a campaign to get funds to pay off debts.

Using money from one part of a business to fund another is a normal and healthy business practice. If you don't have liquidity and proper cash flow you end up tying up all your funds and choke your business.

Whether or not KS has it in their TOS may not matter if higher business laws protects what businesses do with their cash flow. If they really want to protect backers they should require escrows and see how far that goes.

I know people are mad about not getting their stuff yet, but I tire of reading KS entitlement posts. Paying money for a product only entitles you to that product and not a say in how a company runs its business. KS actually prohibits real company investment contracts.

carboncopy wrote:
I tire of reading KS entitlement posts. Paying money for a product only entitles you to that product and not a say in how a company runs its business. KS actually prohibits real company investment contracts.

And I tire of folks making excuses. Prodos have lied to us. Multiple times. I don't give a gak how they run their business except in that they have failed to provide what I and others have paid for, and been dishonest more than once.

I was entitled to what I paid for, namely a KS exclusive version of the game they were to send out before the retail version hit stores. My version is no longer KS exclusive and was not sent out before the retail version. They then also said we would get the add ons first. And now they've gone back on that. Feeling 'entitled' to what I paid for and what I was told should not be a bad thing. Lying to customers should be a bad thing.

The company has admitted to not having funds to fufill its obligations, having used the funds people gave them for this product to fund another product and has floated the idea of running yet another ks to fund this one.

To be upset over that is not entitlement.
It is not entitlement to want what you paid for.

It is, however, a Defiance style ponzi scheme to take orders/investments for a product and then pay for that with orders for future products, over and over. At what point do you stop calling the customers entitled and start looking at what the company is doing?

Yes, when will people finally learn, no matter what a company promises during a campaign, as a backer you are entitled to nothing. Nothing!
The second nothing should be read in a screeching voice, as the people saying so have trouble being heard, sitting atop their high horse.

Prodos,

Can you tell me WHEN the french translated cards would be online please ? You always say "very soon" "next time" etc etc etc... But nothing happen.

I think it wold not very difficult to publish it no ?

On the other hand, I ask some friends backers of mine : you say that you could not print french cards/rulebook because orders hadn't hit yet the minimum... But you didn't let them choose the french version in their pledge manager... Even you announced several times that "it would be possible next week"...

So what is the problem please ?

Serviteur,

Morikun

Joyboozer wrote:
Yes, when will people finally learn, no matter what a company promises during a campaign, as a backer you are entitled to nothing. Nothing!
The second nothing should be read in a screeching voice, as the people saying so have trouble being heard, sitting atop their high horse.

Not quite - and not even Kickstarter believes that - they just believe that Kickstarter isn't a part of any...liability concerns.

Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.

Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:


When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.

The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

Of course, trying to enforce your rights is another thing altogether...

In all fairness to Prodos, they have appeared to be trying like buggery to get it sorted. Even if the manner in which it was done was detrimental to their reputation...

The way I see it is that the past is the past. We can't change that, nor can Prodos. The fact that they have been stepping up, here, in the cesspool, and answering questions, etc., is a good thing. I like to encourage positive behaviour. It won't wipe out the transgressions of the past, but it certainly could make the future better. I have moved from very pessemistic, to a more wait and see approach. Here's hoping this is the beginning of a new chapter for Prodos. We'll see.

Joyboozer wrote:
Yes, when will people finally learn, no matter what a company promises during a campaign, as a backer you are entitled to nothing. Nothing!
The second nothing should be read in a screeching voice, as the people saying so have trouble being heard, sitting atop their high horse.

It's not that they have trouble being heard from their high horse, it's that they have trouble being heard from this little place some of us call 'reality'.

I expect that problem exists because, from what I've gathered, that place is very, very far from a lot of wargaming kickstarters.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
In all fairness to Prodos, they have appeared to be trying like buggery to get it sorted. Even if the manner in which it was done was detrimental to their reputation...

And I applaud this change in direction. The key, however, will be to maintain that new course for more than just a week or two. Making promises is easy but keeping them is harder. I sincerely hope they can do both for the long haul.

That sinking feeling when you see people being openly scammed.

Like a slow motion train wreck...

 CT GAMER wrote:
That sinking feeling when you see people being openly scammed.

Like a slow motion train wreck...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That sinking feeling when you see people being openly scammed.

Like a slow motion train wreck...

Holy crap.. I must be in the matrix... deja vu!