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2017/02/17 19:20:14
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
They didn't ship everything to everybody... Some of us (including me) won't get out out of date stuff for who knows how long after folks get their 2nd Edition delivered.
feth it annoys me.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2017/02/17 19:29:26
Subject: Re:Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
This ended up in my emails earlier today, Source Link
Announcing AvP The Hunt Begins Second Edition and AVP Unleashed
Spoiler:
Improved and upgraded AvP is available for preoder
After 2 years since initial "Alien versus Predator The Hunt Begins" release, we are happy to announce Second Edition of our game. We have improved many aspects of the game and components itself.
REDESIGNED MINIATURES
All models have received fresh design and looks. Characters are more dynamic now and we are introducing built-in terrain bases as well.
IMPROVED RULESET
Second Edition of AVP contains all the patches and erratas we have collected over last year of testing and collecting feedback.
THE LAST STAND MODE
You can play with your fiends in cooperative way using The Last Stand Mode from First Edition. Aim of the game is simple - destroy Spawning Points of Xenomorphs, while Horde of Aliens is trying to do what they do best. Horde is controlled by The Game, while your brave Marines Squad or Predator Pack are controlled by players.
PACKAGING
AVP Second Edition is now in different box, in a square shape, instead of rectangular one. It will fit stacks of your favorite board games perfectly and it's much easier to handle now.
MINIATURES ARE UNICAST NOW
Biggest improvement has been done with models - you can place them on board straight from the box! No assembling required, no gluing, no cutters - just open a game and play!
After you finish playing, you can assembly the game and put models back into the box without any risk of damaging them. All this thanks to protective foam we have used for miniatures.
REVAMPED ARTWORK
We have spent a lot of time improving our assets, which results in new design of tiles, we are using for a game. Take a look.
PRE-ORDERS START NOW
AVP The Hunt Begins Second Edition “The Hunt Begins” Is a fast-paced, claustrophobic, “express elevator to hell” Miniature game of combat between three of the most dangerous races in the galaxy.
59.99 USD 48.99 GBP 56.99 EUR
AVP Unleashed Rulebook Based on the Wargame Adaptive Ruleset (WAR), AVP:Unleashed is a fast-paced, tactical game that pits the forces of two or more players against each other. From small skirmish fights of a squad or two to large-scale battles, AVP:Unleashed can be played in an endless number of ways.
35.00 USD 25.00 GBP 29.99 EUR
AVP Second Edition Upgrade Pack With this Upgrade Kit you can update your First Edition to second one. Pack consists of new A5 manual, updated cards and tokens.
21.00 USD 15.00 GBP 17.99 EUR
2017/02/18 10:09:27
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
Great, 2nd Edition is out. Yet to recieve my stuff from the Kickstarter. So do we receive the original KS edition of the Out of Date game, or do we receive the 2nd Edition Game?
Looks like the 2nd edition has a smaller content count, but I'd need my first edition that was ordered 3 half years ago to do a comparision!
F*$%&#g PRODOS.
A bit of everything really....... Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on.............
2017/02/18 10:26:18
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
CURNOW wrote: Yep still waiting for over half my pledge about £150 worth . Now £150 worth of obsolete stuff .
Look on the bright side... now that Jarek has literally no one else he can reasonably ship it too except at firesale clearance prices, you might actually get it sooner!
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2017/02/19 04:19:24
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
CURNOW wrote: Yep still waiting for over half my pledge about £150 worth . Now £150 worth of obsolete stuff .
Look on the bright side... now that Jarek has literally no one else he can reasonably ship it too except at firesale clearance prices, you might actually get it sooner!
I wish, but since new sales, even at firesale clearance price, are still new money coming it, it's more profitable for the thieves at prodos to do that than to ship to backers.
They already have our money.
2017/02/28 17:46:56
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
Seems like PRODOS are now involved in another Kickstarter. Sodapop's Relic Knight models are all being produced by our favourite company in Poland.
A bit of everything really....... Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on.............
2017/02/28 18:04:54
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
TLDR version.. they were gonna make my minis.. they made some samples, I funded the campaign, then they went dark, then after asking 27 times they finally said something like "Sorry, we could maybe do it in like a year or so..." key word being maybe.
Needless to say I'm sticking to good old fashioned metal.
For what it's worth, their unicast minis are seriously awesome. But I guess they just want to focus on bigger projects for more well know guys... I've moved on
2017/02/28 18:22:10
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
TheSecretSquig wrote: Seems like PRODOS are now involved in another Kickstarter. Sodapop's Relic Knight models are all being produced by our favourite company in Poland.
This isn't new though. Prodos has exclusively been making all of Relic Knights miniatures for multiple years since they switched to resin.
2017/02/28 18:32:57
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
Ninja Division are Prodos and Archons US distributor they will be given priority plus as above they already make the RK resins anyway.
Wasn't the issue with Mantic that they commission Prodos to do a test run of the KoW Blaine to see how things went they agreed a set amount but needed more than that and Prodos hadn't the capacity free to exceed the original order? Or am I mis remembering? The bendy legs was a problem though but AVP minis suffer from a similar issue hopefully unicast is better in this regard. I'm loath to defend them as I only have a partial delivery on AVP (and had to order more to get that shipped) but they seem to be fairly OK if your dealing with them through a third party.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/02/28 18:39:34
2017/03/06 14:56:40
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
Yes, I'd heard that they were more reliable in fulfilling 3rd party KS obligations (more dangerous to screw someone over in that kind of commercial contract rather than this unprotected 'pledge/reward' relationship).
However White Dragon Minis, who were originally using Prodos for the resins on their 2016 Shattered Void Kickstarter have instead taken the printing in-house. I won't repeat all the details here as it was a backers-only update and obviously only one side of the story, but yeah doesn't seem like Prodos have been covering themselves in glory.
2017/03/06 15:33:51
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
Shinnentai wrote: Yes, I'd heard that they were more reliable in fulfilling 3rd party KS obligations (more dangerous to screw someone over in that kind of commercial contract rather than this unprotected 'pledge/reward' relationship).
However White Dragon Minis, who were originally using Prodos for the resins on their 2016 Shattered Void Kickstarter have instead taken the printing in-house. I won't repeat all the details here as it was a backers-only update and obviously only one side of the story, but yeah doesn't seem like Prodos have been covering themselves in glory.
Just because they chose to make it backer only doesn't mean you or anyone else has to keep it that way; it's not in any kickstarter TOS to my knowledge. It's public and news worthy and, FWIW, this is where plenty of folks go to get the real story on Prodos in one (albeit lengthy) source. I know I'd appreciate it if you posted the text here as Prodos being magically better on the business to business end of things is a traditional fallback for white knights. Dark Severance and Necros iirc have already releated their unsatisfactory business to business experiences and a third from another source (remember that Prodos called dakka a hive of scum and villainy or some crap) would be welcome and further proof.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2017/03/07 02:58:15
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
Hysterical Games had to step in to take over the casting of another KS, can't remember which one, because Prodos weren't able to complete their obligations. Anyone know more about that?
Joyboozer wrote: Age of tyrants switched from Prodos to a company run by Rob Alderman? Wasn't he a part of Prodos? Wtfs the story there? They're competition now?
Well...
Rob was a part of Prodos, he said he was a Director at prodos in interviews and his Link'din profile said he was a Director.
But when he was running a KS for his new company I posted about him of being a Director at Prodos, and thus part to blame for the unfulfilled Pledges, he called the Police!
He told the police I was harassing him online.
Joyboozer wrote: Age of tyrants switched from Prodos to a company run by Rob Alderman? Wasn't he a part of Prodos? Wtfs the story there? They're competition now?
Well...
Rob was a part of Prodos, he said he was a Director at prodos in interviews and his Link'din profile said he was a Director.
But when he was running a KS for his new company I posted about him of being a Director at Prodos, and thus part to blame for the unfulfilled Pledges, he called the Police!
He told the police I was harassing him online.
Panic...
That was you, huh?
Yeah, I'd heard about that.
Rob and Mark both left Prodos at different times to pursue their own projects although their departure was motivated by.. internal matters. Mark's main area of responsibility had been writing for Warzone, and Rob's job seemed to vary from week to week but he was mostly responsible for maintaining contact with retail stores in the UK and getting them to stock Warzone etc. The director thing is mostly BS. You have to remember that this is largely Polish company that needed to be 'based' in the UK, yet it really only had two employees in the UK, neither of whom were responsible for running the show. However, as and when required, they were apparently given the grand poobah hat to wear.. and then they left. It isn't too taxing to read between the lines there.
Right now Mark is doing well with his Devil's Run game, and Rob went to help a friend resurrect Panzerfaust under the company "Hysterical Games". Since Rob is basically doing the casting for the Panzerfaust and has some capacity for additional casting, he also took over the job of casting for Age of Tyrants when Prodos had* to shed** some of it's production obligations, ostensibly to prioritise AvP. Age of Tyrants and Shattered Void are two examples, but let's be honest, there may be others. However, when it comes to their bigger contracts like Relic Knights and Kings of War, there is no denying that those products exist; Relic Knights have been using Prodos for years and for people who jumped in on the RK KS, the consensus has been that the (Prodos) resin minis have been a huge step up from the restic that was originally used.. and there is absolutely no reason to think that the partnership won't continue to be successful. The only problem I could see is if RK 2.0 does really, really well and Prodos can't meet the demand (which is supposedly*** what happened to the KoW casts they did). If there have been problems on either side, all parties involved have had the sense to keep their mouths shut about it and to move on.
So yeah, if you are lucky enough to be a big company working with Prodos - or you are invested in that company's game - I don't think you have anything to worry about. If you swap "big company" for "small company going to KS" then I think you'd have reason to be concerned. The trick is figuring out where that line is. As for the former Prodos peeps, I'm sure both Rob and Mark can count the handling of the KS as one of the reasons they left (Mark said as much in this thread, I think) and they currently have nothing to do with Prodos. I wish them both well and if I am ever in the market for a 15mm Mad Max type game, or Fantasy WW2, I'd have no reservations about buying into the product or supporting the respective companies. You don't get pissed at Sabé because Amidala banned flip-flops on Naboo.
Or.. something.
warboss wrote: (remember that Prodos called dakka a hive of scum and villainy or some crap)
Hahahha, wait, you're refuting that? This place is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. That doesn't mean there isn't anything of value here, but the s**t to gold ratio is pretty unfavourable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 10:06:56
I'd have no reservations about buying into the product or supporting the respective companies. You don't get pissed at Sabé because Amidala banned flip-flops on Naboo.
Or.. something.
warboss wrote: (remember that Prodos called dakka a hive of scum and villainy or some crap)
Hahahha, wait, you're refuting that? This place is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. That doesn't mean there isn't anything of value here, but the s**t to gold ratio is pretty unfavourable.
I disagree with both parts above. The guy who claimed to kickstarter backers that he was "just an employee" at prodos while simultaneously claiming to future employers/business partners (and probably the british government) that he was both part OWNER and MANAGEMENT at prodos was clearly dishonest in one of the two claims as they're mutually exclusive. I assume brits are no more entitled to "alternative facts" than we are over on this side of the pond. If the former was actually true, it still speaks to his character that he CHOSE to inaccurately claim the latter for probably years without adjusting it once he found out the truth... and that is the best case scenario for evaluating his veracity. Just like his former co-owner/boss/partner/whatever Jarek, he tried to play both sides of the same coin and got caught.
I fully understand that employees leave companies and that they're not responsbile in most cases for the bad decisions of that prior company. But.. if their first action upon leaving said dishonest company is to be dishonest themselves while asking for an effectively low to no risk handout then they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt let alone they coddling they desire. This is especially true with crowdfunding companies as bad as Prodos and Palladium.
As for the second part, every forum has good and bad things and the ratio here when factoring in the open door policy and number of users is higher than expected (in terms of news/rumors/painting/tactics). In the prodos case, Jarek was just pissed that people here were able to clearly dismantle his misleading posts elsewhere with actual proof and that there was nothing he could do to erase it unlike on kickstarter and facebook. That's admirable IMO and I'm glad that folks here on dakka discern the truth from the spin.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 14:33:40
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2017/03/07 14:24:08
Subject: Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249
Edit: oops, I'm late. Will try to dig up the email...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update - Important Production Information
Posted by White Dragon Miniatures (Creator)
Backer3x For backers only
...
The not so good news...
We at WDM have decided to step away from our casting partner, Prodos Games Ltd for production of our ships. A great deal of thought has been put into the decision and it isn't something we have taken lightly.
This has come about due to us experiencing multiple production delays in both 3D printing and casting, a lack of clear communication to our questions and as such these issues raised concerns between us about production delays for future projects and miniatures.
The silver lining!
Our main priority is getting you guys your awesome spaceships and materials to play games in our expanding universe of Shattered Void and we also need to ensure that the company's future health is also secure to allow us to grow.
White Dragon Miniatures originally began life as a successful resin casting service, (1/54 scale Fiddler and also casting for a variety of other companies) this means we already have the materials, tools and skills required to produce our range.
We originally outsourced the Shattered Void kickstarter to Prodos Games in the unforeseen event that the Kickstarter was more successful than we could cope with in production terms. This is not the case and therefore we will be bringing the casting back in house of, not only our Kickstarter items, but our 15mm range too.
Where do we go from here?
We are currently awaiting the delivery of the 3D Master Prints from Prodos Games and what casting has been done. We will be wasting no time producing the outstanding ships when we have the masters to cast from.
This means we will sadly be missing our December fulfilment goal which we can do little else but apologise for. We are deeply disappointed that this situation has arisen as we were thoroughly looking forward to getting all of your miniatures to you guys before Christmas and then hitting 2017 with a full range of miniatures and supporting game system.
It would be incredibly unwise of us to give an exact date at this present moment until Prodos have sent us the 3D Master Prints so we can take stock of the situation and launch plan B into action. We'll hopefully be able to update you all with some better news within the next week or two!
What we would also like to do for you guys, our backers is offer a miniature. Not just any miniature but a completely new model... Therefore we need your help.
What do you guys want to see made in the Shattered Void universe? Some crazy Astivar strike craft? Something punchy for the EEF? Let us know, any and all ideas are welcome!
Yes, we could just make a new miniature for you guys but due to it's creation being in part due to the circumstances that have arisen we want you guys to pour your creative ideas into something -you- would love to see!
All backers that have pledges which require postage will get this miniature thrown in the box when we begin fulfillment!
So, on that note if you guys have any questions, comments of queries please hit us up in the comments section, private message or email.
Thank you all for your support and once more, please accept our most sincere apologies over the slight delay.
...
3D Master Models
Now last update we broke the news that we would be bringing the production back in house and also getting a 3D printer to take charge of what needs doing. Now this has proved to be a very wise choice, as you will read onto.
2 boxes of master 3D prints had arrived with us, including; The Drone carrier ship, Talos Suits, and a number of the alien ships. There were also some of the ships that had been cast prior to the Kickstarter. Now looking over them, they were really poorly cleaned up, and clearly rushed. The carrier hadn’t even printed correctly, as part of it was cut off at the top. These prints have been sent back to Prodos and no money has been paid for them. However, there is no news for the remaining prints that are in their possession. This includes a major number of the models that were cast before the Kickstarter had even launched, and the entire catalogue of 15mm models that we offer on the webstore.
Disappointing and frustrating yes, but not the end of the world (now atleast). Yesterday the 3D printer was ordered, and should have it with us in the next 2 weeks (3 at the latest). We can then just focus on getting Master Models printed and set ready for casting. An advantage of having the printer is that we can also print multiple Master Models, which will enable us to significantly speed up the mould making time for the ships.
It also means that we will not be waiting around for Prodos to send the 3D prints out, which will be, well who knows. But that’s now for us to sort out, and will have no further impact on you, the backers.
We will get more information on the printer front when it arrives (expect an excited update at that point).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 19:11:58
I'd have no reservations about buying into the product or supporting the respective companies. You don't get pissed at Sabé because Amidala banned flip-flops on Naboo.
Or.. something.
warboss wrote: (remember that Prodos called dakka a hive of scum and villainy or some crap)
Hahahha, wait, you're refuting that? This place is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. That doesn't mean there isn't anything of value here, but the s**t to gold ratio is pretty unfavourable.
I disagree with both parts above. The guy who claimed to kickstarter backers that he was "just an employee" at prodos while simultaneously claiming to future employers/business partners (and probably the british government) that he was both part OWNER and MANAGEMENT at prodos was clearly dishonest in one of the two claims as they're mutually exclusive. I assume brits are no more entitled to "alternative facts" than we are over on this side of the pond. If the former was actually true, it still speaks to his character that he CHOSE to inaccurately claim the latter for probably years without adjusting it once he found out the truth... and that is the best case scenario for evaluating his veracity. Just like his former co-owner/boss/partner/whatever Jarek, he tried to play both sides of the same coin and got caught.
I fully understand that employees leave companies and that they're not responsbile in most cases for the bad decisions of that prior company. But.. if their first action upon leaving said dishonest company is to be dishonest themselves while asking for an effectively low to no risk handout then they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt let alone they coddling they desire. This is especially true with crowdfunding companies as bad as Prodos and Palladium.
As for the second part, every forum has good and bad things and the ratio here when factoring in the open door policy and number of users is higher than expected (in terms of news/rumors/painting/tactics). In the prodos case, Jarek was just pissed that people here were able to clearly dismantle his misleading posts elsewhere with actual proof and that there was nothing he could do to erase it unlike on kickstarter and facebook. That's admirable IMO and I'm glad that folks here on dakka discern the truth from the spin.
I disagree with your... er.. disagreement. On the first topic, I have a pretty good idea about what happened but since I can't state it as fact, I'm not going to post it here although I would be more than happy to continue that part of the discussion with you via PM.
..and the reason I don't feel comfortable posting things that are not certifiable facts when it comes to Prodos Shennanigans (and there is no denying there have been some shennaningans. I have no problem with such things being called out) is the very reason I agree with the whole scum and villainy thing. There are a lot of people here who would take a piece of information which is second or third hand and consider it fact if it supports their particular view on something, especially if it is negative, without any desire to do exactly what you just said and discern the truth from community spin. That doesn't mean those people are always wrong in their claims (a broken clock is right twice a day), and it doesn't apply to everyone of course, but it happens here more than the other places I frequent. *
Really, as Alpharius demonstrated, the biggest looser here is the community of players who want AvP to be a thing - be that in board game form or the upcoming wargame (which is nearly, nearly there, I promise). What ever Prodos do tomorrow will do nothing to shed the baggage of yesterday, and that baggage is ultimately what is handicapping interest and trust in their games. I fear AvP and also Warzone will always be a game that struggles to take off in a club or store because of what has happened and for those people who really want to see something good to come of those licenses, it really sucks.
* although that includes BoW, so, maybe not a good example
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/08 09:45:24
Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on............. 
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