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That's far from being OP IMHO, in Magic circles it'd be called useless as you're spending resources for absolutely no effect on the immediate board state. Plus it's not even reliable and it precludes you from using the power that does give you the absolute best effect in Warcy - bonus actions.

Hm, I don't understand--none of that makes any sense. I get the MTG reference but it's not even apples to oranges, it's apples to meatloaf.

It's the idea that paying now for a bonus later is bad because you might not be alive to use it.

This particular ability is doubly bad because you have to pay for it in advance and it's not even guaranteed to go off. I bet 90% of the time it's going to be better to use the generic "+1 attack right now" power over "if I kill something with my next roll I get a permanent bonus starting next turn". Really the only mode you'll ever use is the + Toughness desperation move to hold an objective.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's the idea that paying now for a bonus later is bad because you might not be alive to use it.

This particular ability is doubly bad because you have to pay for it in advance and it's not even guaranteed to go off. I bet 90% of the time it's going to be better to use the generic "+1 attack right now" power over "if I kill something with my next roll I get a permanent bonus starting next turn". Really the only mode you'll ever use is the + Toughness desperation move to hold an objective.

Against most Stormcast lists, or even Beasts of Chaos with lots of large health models... the ability is likely to not see much use.

*shrug* it isn't like having the option overrides basic tactics. The situation arises all the time where a model is attacking an enemy model that is weak/near death and is going to die bar awful luck. If the potential for bad luck means an ability isn't good then that applies to almost all of them.

Bonus actions ARE great, they are rarely available on doubles though. When they are they have conditions attached, most commonly needing to kill an enemy first and said ability being limited to certain models in the faction. And the Darkoath have an ability which is exactly that.

Low-count armies do generally run a few cheap chaff models, but generally speaking yeah they aren't too worried. That's a minority of the game though. Perhaps more importantly, such armies are much more vulnerable to abilities that apply debuffs, especially if those debuffs can last for the rest of the battle. The Darkoath have that too, and on a model they were definitely bringing regardless of the opponent.

Oh yea their Triples are both pretty nuts.

Bah, just shows what's the problem when someone looks only at the aptitude table and not the profiles.

Both Triples are available only to one type of fighter ; the debuff for the shaman, that you definitively don't want to put on the front line because of how squishy it is (and because you'd rather use their double instead), and the wrathforged for the offensive one.

That's it. It's thus very easy to anticipate which model will be used for that and to target it. By the way, both the shaman and wrathforged aren't particularly that tough, soooo...

As for the double that gives action, it's only for the leader. There are other doubles heavily restricted like this in other factions that give action already. Didn't make them particularly up on the competitive scene just because of that.

Darkoath Savagers are actually very limited in choices and struggle like all the other Chaos warcry cultist warbands because of that. Their aptitudes aren't enough to make them really competitive in comparison to other AoS factions.

I know Ninthmusketeer has put me on ignore so he won't see this like he didn't see my other posts last page, but it doesn't matter much. Can be useful for others.

I use ignore as a personal warning function--it tells me 'hey, this is a person you find particularly frustrating, skip it if you aren't in a good mood'.

At any rate, I don't disagree with any of that until the part about how the warband struggles due to a lack of choices. If anything that's backwards; utilizing a wide range of units from a warband is weaker than spamming the handful of better options.

I mentioned it before; the Chaos warbands have an artificial disadvantage because of getting only 1-2 of any given option per box. My competitive splintered fang list has 6 serpent swarms; there's one in the box. It also uses only 4 different models. It's success relies primarily on two factors--an overpowered cheap model (aforementioned swarms) and an overpowered basic double. Other factors are an overpowered elite option, a great double on the leader, and a support model with a useful way to spend high-value doubles. All of those line up with the Savagers.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/03/underworlds-fighters-are-headed-to-the-eightpoints-in-warcrys-new-tome-of-champions/

Tome of Champions 2021
A bit of an indicator how far behind releases are.

Probably 3 to 4 months behind. Will that have a knock on effect on 2nd edition?

Be interesting to see if they copy over the Bladeborn stuff as is or update for full Warcry either way it’s good to get those rules in one place.

That's neat. I was wondering if it was still getting a release at some point. Now I just hope that the two warbands get a separate release sometime soon.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/03/underworlds-fighters-are-headed-to-the-eightpoints-in-warcrys-new-tome-of-champions/

Tome of Champions 2021
A bit of an indicator how far behind releases are.

Yep, I had the same thought upon seeing the article. Glad to see Warcry is getting some support and that Underworlds minis are getting some more utility, I almost think it would be better to kind of fold Underworlds into Warcry entirely at this point - its a great game but I don't see much signs of life in the community compared to where it was in the 1st/2nd season. I suspect it might have run its course and it might not be viable to continue it as a standalone product line. I suspect Warcry might not be too far off from there either, but it has received less support in general, perhaps merging the two games somewhat might be an imporvement.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yep, I had the same thought upon seeing the article. Glad to see Warcry is getting some support and that Underworlds minis are getting some more utility, I almost think it would be better to kind of fold Underworlds into Warcry entirely at this point - its a great game but I don't see much signs of life in the community compared to where it was in the 1st/2nd season. I suspect it might have run its course and it might not be viable to continue it as a standalone product line. I suspect Warcry might not be too far off from there either, but it has received less support in general, perhaps merging the two games somewhat might be an imporvement.

Outside of a few hotspots, Underworlds ("WU") seems to me to be on life support here in the U.S. However, it is going stronger in the U.K., Europe and possibly Australia. Which is sad, since I find it's gameplay to be significantly deeper and more compelling than Warcry. Nonetheless, I would like to see this 2021 Tomes include Bladeborn boardgame rules for those WU warbands, not just Warcry rules.

callidusx3 wrote:
Nonetheless, I would like to see this 2021 Tomes include Bladeborn boardgame rules for those WU warbands, not just Warcry rules.

But at this time, Bladeborn is only available in the US, UK, and Germany. Unless GW expands the distribution, there is little incentive for them to create rules for more Underworld warbands.

Well, y'know, GW isn't helping the situation what with the massive price hike, changing the card backs and so on. There's also still the pandemic. Last game night I had was on Thanksgiving week.

The aggressive price push definitely halted my interest in Under Worlds. Warcry is great, but hasn’t gotten support apart from two pricey boxes sets, over two years, so it’s really difficult to maintain interest over that period with so little. Hope it turns around soon. The same potential that is drawing in people around Killteam exists with Warcry. I hope they don’t waste it.

This new Tome Of Champions firmly plants Underworlds in the grave for me.

The changing of card backs nearly pushed me over the edge, but this just gives me zero reason to play Underworlds over Warcry now.

chaos0xomega wrote:
- its a great game but I don't see much signs of life in the community compared to where it was in the 1st/2nd season.

As an available, albeit anecdotal, example:

Current Adepticon signups has WH:U at 36/128. 36 is a decent enough showing I suppose, but the fact that they are no where close to selling out the available space is an ominous sign.

Tome of Champions 2021 pre order next week

Plus the following warbands

Thunderstrike SCE - 3 Annihilators, 5 Vindictors
DoK - 5 Blood Sisters/Stalkers, 10 Witch Aelves/SoS
LRL - 5 Stoneguard, 5 Sentinels, 5 Wardens
Slaanesh Sybarites - 11 Blissbarb archers , 5 Painbringers/Twinsouls
Kruleboyz - 10 Gutrippaz, 3 Boltboyz

Dread Master wrote:
The aggressive price push definitely halted my interest in Under Worlds. Warcry is great, but hasn’t gotten support apart from two pricey boxes sets, over two years, so it’s really difficult to maintain interest over that period with so little. Hope it turns around soon. The same potential that is drawing in people around Killteam exists with Warcry. I hope they don’t waste it.

They just seriously need to consolidate Warcry information. GW's biggest problem has always been dispersing of information in multiple books making it bothersome for anyone to collect a force or two. I have enough AoS stuff to field almost every single warband, and would even be tempted to add more, if it weren't for the fact that when the warscrolls for Warcry updated they came in 4 different 20 pound books.

I also fear that they are going to do the same mistake with Kill Team as the Ork Kommandos and Krieg Teams are in the Octarius book. GW just really needs to lay off snorting the book release blow and make the game accessible.

WarCry Warbands comparison:

Stormcast £47.25
5x Vindictors £15.75
3x Annihilators £31.50

Kruleboyz £60.5
10x Gutrippaz £31.50
3x Man-Skewer Boltboyz £29

Hedonites of Slaneesh £68
10x Blissbarb Archers £31.50
5x Myrmidesh Painbringers £36.50

Daughters of Khaine £67.5
5x Melusai Blood Stalkers £32.50
5x Sisters of Slaughter £17.50
5x Witch Aelves £17.50

Lumineth Realmlords £73
5x Alarith Stoneguard £36.50
5x Vanari Sentinels £18.25
5x Vanari Wardens £18.25

Lumineth box is a nice sampler depending on price. Last time around the AoS warbands were £36 (KO was £40 and Sylvaneth £45) but expect a boost up into the mid 40s. ToC 2020 was £20 probably £25 this time.

 nels1031 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
- its a great game but I don't see much signs of life in the community compared to where it was in the 1st/2nd season.

As an available, albeit anecdotal, example:

Current Adepticon signups has WH:U at 36/128. 36 is a decent enough showing I suppose, but the fact that they are no where close to selling out the available space is an ominous sign.

Shame since UW is at its best state game wise since launch with many viable factions and playstyles, and generally needing less total packs then earlier seasons (though I suspect most players like me still whale and buy everything).

I, personally, chose not to go to Adepticon due to pandemic and lack of any interesting side events. In previous years I've gone mainly for the UW GT.

Nice, that was quick after the announcement. Shame no seperate releases for the other two warbands though.

Nice bundles. Kruleboyz are a good addition to Dominion half and Daughters of Khaine could kickstart a new project while waiting for DoK vs. Nighthaunt battle box.

MegaDombro wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
- its a great game but I don't see much signs of life in the community compared to where it was in the 1st/2nd season.

As an available, albeit anecdotal, example:

Current Adepticon signups has WH:U at 36/128. 36 is a decent enough showing I suppose, but the fact that they are no where close to selling out the available space is an ominous sign.

Shame since UW is at its best state game wise since launch with many viable factions and playstyles, and generally needing less total packs then earlier seasons (though I suspect most players like me still whale and buy everything).

I, personally, chose not to go to Adepticon due to pandemic and lack of any interesting side events. In previous years I've gone mainly for the UW GT.

Was coming here to sort of say this. Attendance at major underworlds events like Adepticon and LVO is definitely going to be impacted by the pandemic. None of my active Underworlds friends went to LVO this year, partly because getting back into Canada is a total pain in the behind (need a negative PCR test to board your flight back - if you’re positive you’d better have extra cash for an extended hotel stay).

I would hate to see underworlds rolled up into Warcry. Warcry is fun but I feel underworlds is the better game. It’s suffered because of the lack of in-person games and the ludicrous number of price hikes that it’s been hit with in the last two years - yet despite this my anecdotal data point is that locally we’re seeing a lot of new players, apparently because of the Rivals rules making things more accessible.

ToC 2021 contents from the trailer - Harrowdeep warbands are not included

makes sense, the books probably went to print and were intended for release before harrowdeep was ever even announced.

chaos0xomega wrote:
makes sense, the books probably went to print and were intended for release before harrowdeep was ever even announced.

Very true I forgot about the delays for a second

Threw some quick lists together to see what comes in each box (not optimised just a mixed list) Slaanesh comes out with the most points and SCE least all are well over 1000 points so there's plenty of options.

High Warden 120
High Sentinel 95
4 Sentinels 320
4 Wardens 320
3 Stoneguard Hammer 285
2 Stoneguard Mallet 210
Total 1350 pts.


Boltboy Boss 195
Gutrippa Boss 170
2 Boltboyz 280
4 Gutrippa Hakkas 340
5 Gutrippa Stikkas 400
Total 1385 pts.

Annihilator Prime Grandhammer 225
Vindictor Prime 200
4 Vindictors 580
Annihilator Grandhammer 145
Annihilator Meteoric Hammer 150
Total 1200 pts.

Krone 235
Handmaiden 150
2 Blood Sisters 330
2 Blood Stalkers 330
3 SoS whip/knife 225
2 SoS whip/buckler 170
2 Witch Aelf Knives 130
2 Witch Aelf knife/buckler 150
Total 1485 pts.

Egopomp 200
High Tempter 130
9 Blissbarb Archers 720
2 Painbringers 280
Twinsoul Merciless Blades 130
Twinsoul Lash 115
Total 1575 pts.

That’s Warcry points totals I assume?