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Azeroth wrote:
Caster Kill always wins a game even if that is not the scenario. I've had games where my opponent had not taken out a single of my models but then they assassinate the caster. Now if the scenario was caster kill, that would be OK, but the scenario was one of the flag scenarios.

I was recently thinking how I'd enjoy WMH a little more if the game didn't end if your caster is killed, outside of an Assassinate style mission. I feel like you'd be better incentivized to really push your caster - especially all those frontline combat casters who I assume very rarely see play, due to being constantly at risk of assassination and never tough enough to just tank damage (everything in this game can be one-rounded) - as well as not be penalized for having diligently and intelligently played to the scenario. And I say this as a player who has gotten FAR more unlikely caster kills off to steal a game away than he has had games stolen from him

I mean, losing your caster sucks and puts you on a serious back footing, not to mention all the beasts and jacks which are now shut down or eating grass or whatever. Would the meta push harder towards units again / more? I guess, but that just makes incentivizing battlegroup bonuses all the more important.

PP has gotten a lot better about combat casters in general. I think its an important aspect of the game that keeps things in check in an IGOUGO game. I don't think making the game more like other games is the way to make it stand out. I do think its something that would be better at the 50 point game with proper scenarios. At that level casters can safely play a little more aggressively but also have less to hide behind.

Overread wrote:The simple fact is that organising and running events and doing demos and getting new people involved; advertising the group and game etc..... These things all involve costs in time and money.

Time, yes, money, not so much. Most of the events around here are self-funded with prizes coming out of the registration fee. Advertisement is on Facebook and other social media options, and this applies to the Warhammers, X-Wing, and SWLegion, as well as WarmaHordes. We even have a local Battletech group (which happens to meet on the wrong side of town for me) that does the same thing and is 100% volunteer. The desire to build up the meta is what one needs in order to do this, not financial compensation.

Boss Salvage wrote:

Azeroth wrote:
Caster Kill always wins a game even if that is not the scenario. I've had games where my opponent had not taken out a single of my models but then they assassinate the caster. Now if the scenario was caster kill, that would be OK, but the scenario was one of the flag scenarios.

I was recently thinking how I'd enjoy WMH a little more if the game didn't end if your caster is killed, outside of an Assassinate style mission. I feel like you'd be better incentivized to really push your caster - especially all those frontline combat casters who I assume very rarely see play, due to being constantly at risk of assassination and never tough enough to just tank damage (everything in this game can be one-rounded) - as well as not be penalized for having diligently and intelligently played to the scenario. And I say this as a player who has gotten FAR more unlikely caster kills off to steal a game away than he has had games stolen from him

I mean, losing your caster sucks and puts you on a serious back footing, not to mention all the beasts and jacks which are now shut down or eating grass or whatever. Would the meta push harder towards units again / more? I guess, but that just makes incentivizing battlegroup bonuses all the more important.

One more reason to consider multi-caster under 125 points now, isn't it? This requires killing both casters in order to get the full win in this method. Of course, even proposing any alteration to some of these scenarios that doesn't have the PP copyright on it seems to get bite back from a lot of groups.

I like caster kill as a win condition.

It gives an "outplayed" player a hail-Mary play to try to pull off a win. Better than knowing you've lost with no outs... and having to keep playing out the game. Go full aggro and take that 10% shot... better than 0%.

In-Universe... yeah... if your caster drops you bolt. Your Jacks go down, you've got no support, and their caster is going to do *something bad* to you. It stems from the RPG roots. These people are monumentally important to the setting of the game / world. They don't want you casually throwing them away like any old model. They're the King in Chess. All else is expendable, except for this model.

It keeps tension in the game. Always. It creates genuine tactical decisions. Is the reward worth the risk? I love that element.

 LunarSol wrote:
Press Gang won't return unless PP moves out of Seattle.

Technically, they're not in Seattle, they're in Bellevue. Also, why would that have any effect on them re-launching a PG program? Thing is, it is illegal to have volunteers for a for-profit company by US Law (specifically the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)). So unless they moved out of the USA, they still could not have a true volunteer program.

Serious question:

I'm tempted by Infernals. Are they any good/fun?

Now, I don't know a whole lot about this game... but are there multiple ways to play using the miniatures? I thought there was a skirmish version or something.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Serious question:

I'm tempted by Infernals. Are they any good/fun?

Now, I don't know a whole lot about this game... but are there multiple ways to play using the miniatures? I thought there was a skirmish version or something.

There's Company of Iron, but that's questionable as to how easy you could get a game of it right now. It uses a lot of cards to do special things, from what I understand.

There's also Riot Quest, but that's more of it comes with its own set of models which can be used in WMH rather than using your WMH models in Riot Quest.

Then there's Iron Kingdoms RPG, and that will largely depend on your GM more than anything.

That's not including the numerous ways to play WMH that have fallen by the wayside because of the hyper-focus on Steamroller, such as the Journeyman League and the narrative campaigns like Oblivion or the seasonal Rampages.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I like caster kill as a win condition.

It gives an "outplayed" player a hail-Mary play to try to pull off a win. Better than knowing you've lost with no outs... and having to keep playing out the game. Go full aggro and take that 10% shot... better than 0%.

In-Universe... yeah... if your caster drops you bolt. Your Jacks go down, you've got no support, and their caster is going to do *something bad* to you. It stems from the RPG roots. These people are monumentally important to the setting of the game / world. They don't want you casually throwing them away like any old model. They're the King in Chess. All else is expendable, except for this model.

It keeps tension in the game. Always. It creates genuine tactical decisions. Is the reward worth the risk? I love that element.

That is the point, caster kill becomes the only scenario. The other scenarios don’t matter which is what makes the game boring. If your opponent has outplayed you the whole game, then you should lose. If you build your army only to assassinate the enemy caster, then you should lose most scenarios. That is the point of a tactical game. The objective is whatever the scenario is. This is one of the reasons 40k and Legion are so much more appealing. Scenario is everything. Taking out one piece in the board should not win a tactical army game unless that was the objective. The fact that warmahordes is dying out in a lot of areas and participation at cons has dropped dramatically means that this game has some major problems. Those problems stem from the fact that this is an assassination only game. It is repetitive and boring.

So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

Positioning. The game has far less long range shooting than others and better LoS rules.

 Eldarain wrote:
Positioning. The game has far less long range shooting than others and better LoS rules.

Still, seems like the focus on the game is 'sack the quarterback' but with dice and monsters and steampunk mechs.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Positioning. The game has far less long range shooting than others and better LoS rules.

Still, seems like the focus on the game is 'sack the quarterback' but with dice and monsters and steampunk mechs.

It is. Its a lot combos and exploits to create an opening (or if the key enemy pieces don't have anti-knockdown abilities, its simply bowling- knockdown negates the LOS blocking).

One of the big draws is the system mastery required discourages net-listing. If you don't know how all the individual abilities, spells and whatnot work together, the game is going to go badly for you.

In my very limited experience, scenario was generally the win condition. Caster kill was rare, and tended to be the already losing side over-stretching on their hail-Mary.

I’d say caster kill that overcame scenario loss represents less than 10% of games... but 100% of games had the exciting tension of the possibility of it happening. That’s what I like.

Compared to 40k, for example, where I can see the writing on the wall at the bottom of turn 2, WMH has less of that, in my experience, and the possibility of caster kill keeps that uncertainty to a much later point in the game.

Compared to 40k, for example, where I can see the writing on the wall at the bottom of turn 2, WMH has less of that, in my experience, and the possibility of caster kill keeps that uncertainty to a much later point in the game

That is especially true with 8th edition given the explosive increase in the amount of shooting in this edition without lots of LOS blocking terrain

INFINITY is skirmish scale but adds complete reaction actions to the IG/YG system

DUST uses alternating activation but also includes a limited range reactive mechanic between 16-24" depending on unit type. as well as cammo/stealth limiting the range those units can be shot at to 12" or less

WM/H requires so much in the way of order of unit activation that it doesn't lend itself to alpha strike

So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

standard games are on a 4X4 table and the objective zones are HUGE since you have to have units fully in them to cap them. very few models have base long range shooting attacks longer than 14-16" range (most are 12 or less) the ones that do are special models akin to titans in 40K and still you are only talking 20" for the longest ranges. models are also generally quite a bit slower. the fastest models are cavalry that can move a huge 8" but the fixed charge range is movement + 3" and if you run you double move but cannot charge..

then add that in to the fact that the casters have a control range to affect all their troops. the one I use has a 14" bubble so he can sit back well behind the front lines of effective return fire in relative safety (often behind cover of some sort) while buffing his troops and controlling his jacks.

caster kills are the quickest way to win, but definitely not made to be easy unless you screw up in your activations somewhere.


As for infernals-it's a totally new faction I have never played against them them but the thing about WM/H armies is every caster has a very specific style of play-what units they works best with. so every faction has something in the way of casters that allows you to build armies around the style you like to play. there are ones for jacks/beasts, cavalry, infantry hordes, long range shooters, scouts, more melee focus etc...

In more positive news the artbook kickstarted they did is now shipping. The digital versions have also gone out today - soo much really good and fantastic artwork! I can't wait for the print version to arrive (probably a good few weeks to make it over to the UK; get sorted and posted out).

Makes me really hope that they stick around - I've always loved their vision on designs for Hordes (barring their really odd choices with how they did griffins....). I'd love to put together an Infernals army someday (they'd look good next to Everbilght)

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

it seems harsh at first but there are a fair few ways to protect them, and it can be a risky play as if it fails you've spent a turn wailing on one model whilst the opposing army scores objectives and/or puts a big dent in the opposing army

 Overread wrote:
In more positive news the artbook kickstarted they did is now shipping. The digital versions have also gone out today - soo much really good and fantastic artwork! I can't wait for the print version to arrive (probably a good few weeks to make it over to the UK; get sorted and posted out).

Happily downloaded my stuff today, love the art style and unit design sheets PP uses to develop their minis. Infernals have so many cool designs - around Black Friday I picked up Omodamos to shove into some game, simply because he's huge and looks awesome!

Related Aside: Wow Howlers are expensive models. 5x 30mm models for $80 is heavy, even for a person who buys boutique European resin on the usual

 LunarSol wrote:
Malifaux 3rd Ed is a good example of a system that repackaged its existing content in line with a totally new way of selling the game.

I'd hardly consider Malifaux 3rd edition as a good example. They stripped most dual-faction Masters down to a single faction. To me, on the receiving end of a now TT-only Lynch, the fact to finding myself with my collection split in two (Lynch and a few 'core' models in TT, the rest of my Neverborn without a Master since Lynch is no more) made me so sour that I decided to not move to M3E (and so probably stopping playing Malifaux altogether, since most people did make the move).

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

Lots of things. Positioning is the big one; casters can also hold their magic points to reduce incoming damage and generally are really hard to hit and damage without boostable attacks, which are mostly reserved to the robots and other casters.

In practice, I find both scenario and caster kill both primarily exist to drive combat and winning either is usually just a way to declare victory without having to play out a tabling. To get a caster kill you generally need to do something to force your opponent to feel the need to bring their caster out of safety, which is often taking down a unit with a key buff or doing something that requires them to contribute more. Likewise, scenario is often a result of just not having enough to meaningfully contest the zones due to attrition losses.

Of course, when you're first starting, you can lose to either of these simply due to lack of experience. Put your caster too close and you can lose them. Try to stay out of an opponent's range and they can flood the zones to keep you out. Common new player mistakes that are pretty easy to learn from that gives the game a sense of push and pull on the scrum that stands out compared to other large unit games, IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gabbi wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Malifaux 3rd Ed is a good example of a system that repackaged its existing content in line with a totally new way of selling the game.

I'd hardly consider Malifaux 3rd edition as a good example. They stripped most dual-faction Masters down to a single faction. To me, on the receiving end of a now TT-only Lynch, the fact to finding myself with my collection split in two (Lynch and a few 'core' models in TT, the rest of my Neverborn without a Master since Lynch is no more) made me so sour that I decided to not move to M3E (and so probably stopping playing Malifaux altogether, since most people did make the move).

I'm not sure why they gutted Neverborn as hard as they did, but honestly the game is so playable now from a master specific POV I don't feel like I really "lost" anybody. I have orphaned masters in my collection, but when I want to play them I just play them. Generally speaking M3E makes me far more interested in having a master or two from each faction that I find most compelling rather than focusing on any one faction.

Adeptus Doritos wrote:So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

The average ranged weapon is about 10-12", with only some rare infantry reaching to 14" and artillery being longer. Charge range averages out at 8-9", and it is very easy to disrupt positioning to get such a strike in. Average solo infantry runs at about 5 "wounds", while the "Boss" averages at about 16. Battlegroup controllers (which all "Bosses" qualify as) also have ways of mitigating damage from increasing their Armor (basically toughness/damage reduction) to transferring the taken damage to one of their controlled Beasts.

So, unless you expose your "Boss", your opponent has to pound all the interference out of the way, like Chess. That is one of the reasons why scenario play is a good change as it offers an alternative way that can actually be easier to succeed in.

Boss Salvage wrote:Related Aside: Wow Howlers are expensive models. 5x 30mm models for $80 is heavy, even for a person who buys boutique European resin on the usual

I thought that they were 40mm, much like most of the medium-based heavy infantry out there. Still, Cataphracts and heavy Exemplars aren't that much, though I've heard that the new Morrowan units will also carry the same price tag as the Howlers (a 5x40mm and 10x30mm)..

 Charistoph wrote:
I thought that they were 40mm, much like most of the medium-based heavy infantry out there.

Just going by this:



I mean, they look huge! EDIT: And do appear to be 'medium' based 3/5 infantry in game. I don't know, price comment still stands tho.

 Charistoph wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:Related Aside: Wow Howlers are expensive models. 5x 30mm models for $80 is heavy, even for a person who buys boutique European resin on the usual

I thought that they were 40mm, much like most of the medium-based heavy infantry out there. Still, Cataphracts and heavy Exemplars aren't that much, though I've heard that the new Morrowan units will also carry the same price tag as the Howlers (a 5x40mm and 10x30mm)..

Howlers are very large 40 mm models. The difference compared to things like Cataphracts is material. Those things are made out of PVC. The Howlers and new releases in general are all Resin with some metal components. It's a much pricier material that ramps up the cost on larger boxes to a pretty uncompetitive price, IMO. The new models are absolutely fantasic in terms of sculpting and detail, but I have no idea how to sell the game at that price point.

It takes a bit for me to balk at price, as I'm a working adult who understands these are luxury products that are far cheaper than many luxury goods / other hobbies, but the Howler price is high enough that I start looking at other resin manufacturers, like Mierce. Who also have sales that are far more significant than anything I've seen from PP.

And that's before considering that you'll likely want / need multiples of these big expensive units, since we're playing an army game here. He said firmly looking at GeeDub as well, even if boutique plastic kits kind of do deserve boutique pricing.

Anyway, my intent isn't to rag on PP too hard for their pricing (and weak discounting), but it definitely isn't doing them many favors when it comes to starting fresh with new, sexy sculpts.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
It takes a bit for me to balk at price

Ditto, which is exactly how I know its worryingly high.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:Related Aside: Wow Howlers are expensive models. 5x 30mm models for $80 is heavy, even for a person who buys boutique European resin on the usual

I thought that they were 40mm, much like most of the medium-based heavy infantry out there. Still, Cataphracts and heavy Exemplars aren't that much, though I've heard that the new Morrowan units will also carry the same price tag as the Howlers (a 5x40mm and 10x30mm)..

Howlers are very large 40 mm models. The difference compared to things like Cataphracts is material. Those things are made out of PVC. The Howlers and new releases in general are all Resin with some metal components. It's a much pricier material that ramps up the cost on larger boxes to a pretty uncompetitive price, IMO. The new models are absolutely fantasic in terms of sculpting and detail, but I have no idea how to sell the game at that price point.

Not really when you consider that Cataphracts and Exemplar Bastions were first released in white metal, and when they transitioned to the new material, went up in price. Admittedly, part of that increase in price was because they went from a 3 man box to a 5 man box, and the cost did go down over all. I believe that the Legion's Ogruns also have a lower price point than the Howlers as well.

But then, that's is also why I referenced the new Morrowan models as well to provide a current price point perspective rather than an old rebuilt model line alone. All being said, that is a huge price jump going from one generation of models to the next.

 Charistoph wrote:

Adeptus Doritos wrote:So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

The average ranged weapon is about 10-12", with only some rare infantry reaching to 14" and artillery being longer. Charge range averages out at 8-9", and it is very easy to disrupt positioning to get such a strike in.

For base values, this is true. But you're leaving out move and shoot entirely (which puts ranged threat around 16-18" without move or range buffs, let alone both) and with the right units with the right buffs, threat ranges can hit 20" for melee units.

Telling people range in WM/H is about 14" and charge is about 9" is really deceptive. That's often the starting point, but the game is built around combos. There are a lot of abilities out there (and UA abilities, solo effects and spells combined nicely), and even experienced players can get surprised at things that can nuke them in their deployment areas on turn 1. Its not as common as getting overrun on turn 2, but I've seen it happen (and done it)

Voss wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Adeptus Doritos wrote:So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

The average ranged weapon is about 10-12", with only some rare infantry reaching to 14" and artillery being longer. Charge range averages out at 8-9", and it is very easy to disrupt positioning to get such a strike in.

For base values, this is true. But you're leaving out move and shoot entirely (which puts ranged threat around 16-18" without move or range buffs, let alone both) and with the right units with the right buffs, threat ranges can hit 20" for melee units.

Telling people range in WM/H is about 14" and charge is about 9" is really deceptive. That's often the starting point, but the game is built around combos. There are a lot of abilities out there (and UA abilities, solo effects and spells combined nicely), and even experienced players can get surprised at things that can nuke them in their deployment areas on turn 1. Its not as common as getting overrun on turn 2, but I've seen it happen (and done it)

It was answering the question regarding why someone just doesn't snipe "The Boss". I was saying it was averaged and about because not everyone has access to range or movement buffs at all times, and one needs to consider all of the factions in this. With the right setup, I can easily get one of my 'Jack's range up to 22", however in order to do that, it can not move. While movement can extend the range of that shot from the start of the Turn (and usually does to make it even possible), it moves the same shooter in to the easy Charge range of what is screening "The Boss". Yes, a lot of those combos can set up those situations, but they also have to take in to consideration enemy placement and synergies as well.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
It takes a bit for me to balk at price

Ditto, which is exactly how I know its worryingly high.

The price of new models is very very high. However, if you were starting off WM/H and wanted to play one of the standard, non limited factions then the cost of new or good second had models you can get of ebay makes entry to the game very reasonable. 90% of all my trollbloods have come from the second hand market. So has most of my friend Khador.


But yes, lots of the new models can be very expensive.

 Charistoph wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Adeptus Doritos wrote:So, if your boss wizard dies... game over?

Like, what stops someone from sniping him? That just seems... pointless.

The average ranged weapon is about 10-12", with only some rare infantry reaching to 14" and artillery being longer. Charge range averages out at 8-9", and it is very easy to disrupt positioning to get such a strike in.

For base values, this is true. But you're leaving out move and shoot entirely (which puts ranged threat around 16-18" without move or range buffs, let alone both) and with the right units with the right buffs, threat ranges can hit 20" for melee units.

Telling people range in WM/H is about 14" and charge is about 9" is really deceptive. That's often the starting point, but the game is built around combos. There are a lot of abilities out there (and UA abilities, solo effects and spells combined nicely), and even experienced players can get surprised at things that can nuke them in their deployment areas on turn 1. Its not as common as getting overrun on turn 2, but I've seen it happen (and done it)

It was answering the question regarding why someone just doesn't snipe "The Boss". I was saying it was averaged and about because not everyone has access to range or movement buffs at all times, and one needs to consider all of the factions in this. With the right setup, I can easily get one of my 'Jack's range up to 22", however in order to do that, it can not move. While movement can extend the range of that shot from the start of the Turn (and usually does to make it even possible), it moves the same shooter in to the easy Charge range of what is screening "The Boss". Yes, a lot of those combos can set up those situations, but they also have to take in to consideration enemy placement and synergies as well.

The important distinction between the range of the shot and total threat range is that the opposing caster isn't out front and you can't shoot in your opponent's melee range, so its often a case of "the caster is in my threat range if I could walk through his army", which is what makes the armies actually interact.

Also worth mentioning that most guns just aren't very good at killing casters. They're often at 25% chance to hit and not tremendously capable of doing a ton of damage. That changes if you can debuff that caster, but that's the premise of an assassination run.

I'm an ex-player of Warmachine. The concept of brawling giant robots really caught my imagination, and I liked the aesthetics, but there were a number of things that put me off:

* Caster kill instantly ending the game: Like Adeptus Doritos above, this just struck me as a huge limiting factor. I can absolutely get behind the idea for certain scenarios, but for every game to include this just seemed a weird choice. It discouraged getting your Warcaster involved.
* Set group of characters: Being used to creating my own stories and characters in pretty much every other game I've played, it felt hugely limiting to have such a small, set group from which to pick. Worse, building a force really revolved around how particular 'Casters worked with other models in the faction – so it felt like you were hamstringing yourself if you picked up models that you liked; or if you wanted to play a certain way, you had to take a Warcaster that you felt no connection to.
* Cost vs quality: The quality of PP's figures is hugely variable. Some of the later Warcasters were beautiful figures – amongst the best I've seen – but they were often accompanied by dreadful sculpts, produced in some of the least user-friendly materials.

It's a shame, because I liked the clarity of the rules, the setting, and a lot of the mechanics. Just wish they could have found some way to allow players to create their own Warcasters, and to put the focus more on the giant robots than the infantry and wizards.