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It is hard to say concretely what the state of the game is without inside information like sales numbers, as we’re pretty much basing any analysis on a lot of speculation, anecdotes, etc. I think it is fair to say that the number of people playing and sales are likely down from the peak, but it’s probably not as grim as some of the doom and gloom crowd seems to think.

PP seems to be focusing in diversifying, which is good because having the fate of the company tied to the health of one game isn’t a great situation. Releases for Warmachine are slowing down as they are going to be interspersed with releases for Riot Quest, Monsterpocalypse, and Warcaster: Neomechanika, which is probably not a bad thing.

The game itself, from a pure rules perspective, is probably in a fairly health state. It’s not perfectly balanced, but no game is and balance doesn’t feel too bad overall (aside from some concerns about the CID process and power creep).

I think a lot of critiques leveled at Warmachine in this thread are more matters of opinion. Things like igougo, caster kill, 2d6, theme forces, armies engaging in the center, etc., are all there for a reason; you might disagree with them, but they aren’t necessarily bad mechanics.
- igougo is seen as old-fashioned, but I don’t think Warmachine would work with alternating activations or something like that
- 2d6 makes for a more bell-curve shaped probability distribution, which, when you combine it with resource allocation mechanics like boosting, buffs, etc., makes the math really engaging as you try to allocate resources to mitigate luck and maximize your chance of success.
- Without some sort of catchup mechanic, a lot of games struggle with a situation where if one player gets ahead on attrition early on, the other player has little hope of winning. As you fall behind on attrition, it becomes harder and harder to both stay on top of the scenario and make up for that attrition deficit because you have fewer models remaining to do so. This can create situations where the game is more or less decided early on, but one player still has to play from behind for a couple hours with little hope of turning things around. Caster kill means that you can be down, but you are never out because it is always possible for an opponent to get too confident, overextend, and give you an opportunity to win the game (even if it is a hail mary).
- Theme forces have their advantages. For new players, you can see what subset of their faction they are most attracted to and that theme force can be their shopping list. Theme armies can look better on the tabletop than pikemen in plate armour standing next to dudes with rifles and trench coats. Finally, they can encourage diversity because if you have one model that is so good he is an auto-include, the fact that he isn’t available in all themes means that you won’t see him every time and he won’t crowd out all the other models in the faction.
- Armies do tend to engage in the center, but that doesn’t preclude flanking plays. Also, some of the new scenarios go right to the edge, so that encourages armies to spread out a bit more. Additionally, I’m not sure how engaging to the center is any worse or less of a tactical challenge than armies standing across the table from each other and barely leaving their deployment areas as they pop shots at each other.

Also, when we are talking about Mk.III, let’s not forget all the problems of Mk.II. Balance was no better, and Mk.II had the problem of new players being sold a game called Warmachine with big smashy robots but in actuality the robots sucked and you were playing Iron Kingdoms Infantry Battles. Mk.III fixed that.

I think really, the main issue that Warmachine struggles with is that it is a weird in-between of a skirmish and army game. You are doing most of your activations model by model, targeting individual models like a skirmish game, and even have to worry about facing on individual models, like you might in a skirmish game, but at 75 points the sheer size of the game makes it more of an army game. I feel like 75 points is a little overgrown, and prefer to play at points levels like 35 or 50.

The other issue is the community. It’s really a double-edged sword, in that I’ve met some really good people playing Warmachine, and I’ve had some experiences with people that made me want to ditch my army and go play 40K instead. The Warmachine internet is, with few exceptions, pretty horrible and negative.

Finally, it does feel like competitive play has crowded out a lot of things – narrative play, casual play, hobbying, etc., to the point that it is hard to keep people who are not competitively-focused around. That said, I know people who still buy models and play basement games and have fun playing casually; you just don’t see them around a lot because they don’t play in stores, don’t go to tournaments, and don’t post online.

Model quality is very hit and miss, depending on the age of the model and the material that particular model is made with. I don’t think anyone has the ability to do hard plastic to the same ability as GW, but PP has been steadily improving their resin and resin/metal game.

I have a feeling we will see some changes in the future, perhaps with things like limited formats, etc., which could make it less intimidating for a new player whose first reaction is “wait, I have to memorize 1200 cards to not die?” – the lead designer was on a podcast recently and talked about some of the conversations they’ve been having internally, so I'm sure Warmachine will evolve. I wonder if perhaps it could use a Mk.IV which involves a serious redesign, as Mk.III felt a lot like Mk. 2.5.

All that is to say, I think Warmachine is doing okay. It has some problems and is probably down from its peak, but it’s not a bad game. It is great that PP is diversifying though, because having the health of the company so intimately tied to one flagship product is a very difficult situation.

crimsyn wrote:
I think really, the main issue that Warmachine struggles with is that it is a weird in-between of a skirmish and army game. You are doing most of your activations model by model, targeting individual models like a skirmish game, and even have to worry about facing on individual models, like you might in a skirmish game, but at 75 points the sheer size of the game makes it more of an army game. I feel like 75 points is a little overgrown, and prefer to play at points levels like 35 or 50.

This is one of the levels of play I was speaking of, and how it influences everything in the game so much. Warmachine may have started out as a skirmish game, but now it's more of a Company or Platoon game, but still everything operates like it was a skirmish game.

crimsyn wrote:
The other issue is the community. It’s really a double-edged sword, in that I’ve met some really good people playing Warmachine, and I’ve had some experiences with people that made me want to ditch my army and go play 40K instead. The Warmachine internet is, with few exceptions, pretty horrible and negative.

Finally, it does feel like competitive play has crowded out a lot of things – narrative play, casual play, hobbying, etc., to the point that it is hard to keep people who are not competitively-focused around. That said, I know people who still buy models and play basement games and have fun playing casually; you just don’t see them around a lot because they don’t play in stores, don’t go to tournaments, and don’t post online.

I think the biggest problem that Warmachine has right now is exactly this, so much of the community is focused on the Steamroller. Do you know how many people are not even aware that there is anything else in the game besides Steamroller? It seems like most of them as they seem to be completely unaware of anything else when they bemone the loss of the casual and narrative events. Meanwhile, there's that group that is always saying, "We only play Steamroller here."

People talk about a limited format as something new, seeming not to even consider that 3 different versions of limited format already exist in JML, Champions, and Company of Iron, but people are only playing Steamroller. Even when I got in a few 25 point games (because my play time is so limited that even though I've followed and collection for years, I've had little play time), they still played them in a Steamroller format.

 Togusa wrote:
The issue I had with this game is that it feels a lot like

There were far more people playing 40K in my area that I chose to enter that IP instead. I think a lot of people look at it this way.

Today, GW is even more of a power house. I can't think of a single other miniature game company that has anywhere near the presence that GW currently has. That alone is probably the biggest knock on other companies games.

Thats directly a "you/ your local group" problem. everybody has to learn the game somehow, we all did. i have taught and hooked many players on games like classic battletech, the B5 wars system converted for use with star trek attack wing and star wars armada miniatures. i always have with me 3 dust armies (axis/allies/SSU) that i actively demo games with to teach people about the system with good experiences, same goes for infinity and victory at sea.

GW is only a powerhouse because it is actively promoted through players, dedicated retail locations, and media. quite honestly 8th ed 40K is a terrible system, and one of my least favorite incarnations after 6th, when compared to the game mechanics of some of theses other games. GW is so large and the lore is so loved they get a pass over and over again whenever they screw up.

Now my case may be a bit more extreme than some people as miniature gaming has been my main hobby for nearly 2 decades and i have a dedicated day i spend running game night once a week at the FLGS as a volunteer employee for 12+ hours. promoting the community is one of my main goals along with the "fun" social activity side of things,

I had yesterday glued my 25 point Retribution of Scyrah army. That alone made me to want to quit the game. I had purchased box of Houseguard Halberdiers. 10 of them cost 50 bucks, quite expensive. Yet the quality of those miniatures were absolutely dreadful. NOTHING was right with them. Mould lines everywhere and they were absolutely massive. They were poorly made and some had details which I simply could not attach. Materials are taken from garbage bin. This kind of plastic doesn't react with plastic glue and super glue are very, very iffy in gluing this stuff. Sometimes it glues perfectly, sometimes it doesn't at all. Then level of detail is bad. Miniatures are small and lacking in detail compared to warhammer more recent in offerings. I'm being extremely generous here, lacking is an understatement. They look to me more like those toy soldiers which you can buy for cents rather than real miniatures.

Then there was missing parts from my command squad. An entire body is missing. Now who is going to fix me this issue? I ordered Ghost solos. My local hobby shop was unable to order them, because privateer is too incompetent to have few of them lying around and each time they need to open mass production. So, I have tournament coming and have to borrow miniatures which I had ordered month prior. Also again with bases. They make ridiculous points of attachments while providing generic bases. GW finally had learned to pre-drill their holes in advance, but with privateer I have to do such basic thing myself.

Privateer has insane prices for some of its miniatures. Howlers are not even the worst. You need to pay around 100 bucks for 5 knights! I wouldn't be so pissed off if company would bother fixing their own mistakes and would provide miniatures made not out of crappy plastic which is impossible to glue with. Their more recent miniatures like Garryth 2 is quite good. Simple to glue, made out metal. You actually feel that you are getting something good. Yet, their older lines... I'm also pissed that they don't include cards with their miniatures anymore nor bother printing decks. Like, what? It is like playing warhammer without any unit cards. Some of them are even sent me in german. Like, how incompetent this company can be? Just assembling my army pissed me off immensely and wanted me to quit game all together. All of these things are coming just out of one evening of assembling.

As for mechanics, so far I hate buying attack nonsense. It makes game too focused on alpha and warjacks hits way too hard. It also makes their weapons kinda obsolete. There is no such thing as taking light blades to deal with light units, because it is cheaper and they are better against such targets. All that matters is highest POW or other interactions in making POW bigger indirectly. Then going up to target and purchasing million attacks. It feels cheap. Also, tables are very small and movement and fire ranges are massive. This game has absolutely no room for maneuver, especially with capture points. Movement only matters at how much you can walk while being in combat rather than having any genuine mobility problem. Last tournament I had a problem. My opponent went first. He of course ran with all his models and with 5 inch deployment bonus and full advance, he had covered 60% of a map in his first turn. Then I was in a position where I could not effectively reach enemy on my first turn, only take some random shots. I also did not had ground to set up or otherwise I will be defending my very map edge. Game is absolutely broken in that regard.


As for state of a game, it does great in my local hobby shop. Shop clerks play that game primary so they do lion's share of heavy lifting. Making discounts for starter sets, spending time in showing demos to anyone who is interested, making tournaments designed for new guys, etc. In tabletop no game survives without community managers, hobbyist or professionals. We had in Lithuania similar case with Star Wars Legion, you know miniature game with models on a ground. When someone took initiative and started showing demos, interest in game skyrocketed by 100-200%. On the other hand, W40k and Age of Sigmar is kinda dead in our hobby shop. Why? We have quite competitive players in W40k tabletop who are only interested in tournament play and exploiting meta. So they play among themselves and we hardly see them. Age of Sigmar is more casual, but you almost see nobody playing. They play in the corner or at home. So both games are considered dead while Warmachine is most popular miniature game out there. The only difference is that Warhammer does not have anyone to act as community manager and nobody bothers making public events or attracting new players. Even Infinity started to kick Warhammer's ass, because someone bothered to gather new guys and community grew by 100-200% last year. Solution to all Warmachine's problems are as easy as solution to any game's problems. It is actually bothering in introducing new people into the game. When someone does that, game prospers. When nobody does, any games dies. Simple as that. There is no need for pointless discussions about meta or other stuff.

Ernestas

That post proves my point-building communities helps games survive.. no matter how great the models look you are not going to buy them for more than a single display model unless you have a desire to use them in a game.

I think we have all had our share of horror stories of kits that were done badly (FW storm eagle...shudders... or the old armor cast models) from various companies.

If there is a game you love it's up to you to share/demo it and promote it

I have a heavy gear force because a fellow gamer was really into it and got me to build a force. not exactly the most popular of games

i don't like ti as much as classic battletech but it is fun to play.

The market can get a bit over saturated considering how limited the audience is, and many fine games have gone away and will continue to fade without support from the players.

the state of warmachine is currently tied to the same problem-the player base above all else

It can be super toxic in some places because of the players attitudes and thats a shame considering how much fun i have with it in a very casual setting.

 Ernestas wrote:

Then there was missing parts from my command squad. An entire body is missing. Now who is going to fix me this issue?

http://mispack.privateerpress.com/

PP has one of the most reliable customer support systems I've worked with outside of a few months last summer when they were moving the warehouse.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

Then there was missing parts from my command squad. An entire body is missing. Now who is going to fix me this issue?

http://mispack.privateerpress.com/

PP has one of the most reliable customer support systems I've worked with outside of a few months last summer when they were moving the warehouse.

Thank you. I had asked for help in my hobby store and they told me that privateer will help me out. Hopefully everything will solve itself out, because I had purchased it through hobby store and my hobby store do not give me receipt. Well, it gave me receipt, but it is one of a crappy kind where you can only see how much you spent, but there is no name what you were buying.

In our hobby store warmachine is actually the main game, because of amazing community. Veterans are super friendly. I can easily borrow models which privateer did not printed for tournament. Today guy who were ought to borrow me ghost sniper had only one, but I need two for requisition bonus. So I asked if it is fine if I just use houseguard rifleman model and that was cool. I also use different standard bearer to fix that issue with my missing model. It is warhammer who is under the rug, because nobody takes initiative to organize stuff on frequent basis. We yesterday had a post in our city's facebook group about people wanting to prove that Age of Sigmar is not dead and started registration for tournament. Its total numbers are similar to what we gather to Warmachine, but with a lot less certainty and frequency, there are a lot of ifs in their list while Warmachine gets same amount of members without those doubts. Where we have tournament at least every two months and smaller, casual evenings at least once per month to my knowledge, I can't see anything like that happening with warhammer. It is just some dudes agreeing together to play with each other and it just feels and looks pretty dead game, despite GW being so good at what it does that every Warmachine player to whom I talked agrees that Warhammer miniatures are far superior to anything that privateer produces.

I also had encountered this issue. Buying Warmachine figures can be extremely expensive. For example, I want 25 point Menoth army for my starter army. So, I need Choir, Wracks, Covenant, Holy Zealots, Monolith, Sunburst Deliverer for my initial faithful masses army. It costs over 100 euros easily. Just Holy Zealots would cost me 50 euros if purchased directly from privateer while wayland has them at 32 euros. I'm bringing this point, because when I buy stuff from ebay it is just ridiculous. I saw few days ago 30-50 euros brand new heavy warjacks/beasts going for under 10 euros! I had purchased bunch of stuff from auction for different armies, because they cost me just like 20-30% of their full value. Even far less if you want to buy entire armies off at once. I'm awaiting now my brand new Hyperion kit which I won at the auction for 40 euros. There were absolutely no other takers... I had grabbed Ryssovass Defenders for 20 euros and two light jacks for symbolic price of 1.50 euros. I had outbidded a guy who wanted to take them for 1 euro and I just bought them, because I have to pay a hefty percent for postage anyways, so I was just buying all the stuff guy had which I sorta needed. Second hand market for this stuff is insane. I see absolutely no reason to buy new stuff from privateer, because I can get all of it even assembled and quite well painted for fraction of a cost. I only purchased and keep purchasing my armies directly, because I sorta need to have army which I want here and now. Though, all other armies I will definitely just randomly accumulate from ebay and buy from privateer model or two which I will be missing. I'm dreading a day when I will want to make cavalry army and will have to pay 20 euros for a single crappy plastic knight toy...

 Ernestas wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

Then there was missing parts from my command squad. An entire body is missing. Now who is going to fix me this issue?

http://mispack.privateerpress.com/

PP has one of the most reliable customer support systems I've worked with outside of a few months last summer when they were moving the warehouse.

Thank you. I had asked for help in my hobby store and they told me that privateer will help me out. Hopefully everything will solve itself out, because I had purchased it through hobby store and my hobby store do not give me receipt. Well, it gave me receipt, but it is one of a crappy kind where you can only see how much you spent, but there is no name what you were buying.

They don't ask for a receipt, don't worry about it. PP is incredibly good about replacement parts. I've never had an issue that they didn't go above and beyond to fix with basically no demands from me on the issue.

That gives me a lot more confidence in a company then.

Yeah PP has always had good customer service.

I think GW has only shifted to requiring receipts because they deal mostly in plastics now so replacement parts are whole models rather than bits. So its more tempting for some to try and abuse the system. Proof of purchase allows GW to keep track of things and also allows them to monitor if people are claiming for secondhand goods not new purchases.

IT might also come down to a country level too, some countries can have more of a "scam" culture in the consumer sector. I recall watching a small documentary on GOG (alebit made by gog) which said that one big problem in the Polish market was that rip-off CD's of games were so rife and common that many markets were selling products "as good" in packaging and such as the official yet they were ripped off. To the point where many customers didn't even know what they were buying was a rip-off.

PP did have some issues with fulfilling mispacks last year when they moved locations (they really didn't sort their packing well enough), but that seems to have been taken care of in the last few months.

 Ernestas wrote:
This kind of plastic doesn't react with plastic glue and super glue are very, very iffy in gluing this stuff.

Did you wash them before you tried to assemble them? Resins require mold release agents that GW-style plastics don't, if you don't apply some soap and water to get rid of the release agent it will play h--- with superglue. GW finecast has the same problem.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah PP has always had good customer service.

These days they do. There were periods where press gangers had to explain to players how to title and phrase their email so it would be noticed and handled, without that it could take weeks for a response, let alone the part. That did eventually clear up, however.

The real downside of their good customer service is their mispack rates were really high. I know I had 30-40 mispacks with privateer products over the course of about 8 years. With GW, its been maybe 5 mispacks in 30 years (and two of those were mislabeled bits orders back in the day).

Azeroth wrote:
My biggest problems with Warmahordes (outside of the poor management of their production and distribution) is the scenarios themselves.

Caster Kill always wins a game even if that is not the scenario. I've had games where my opponent had not taken out a single of my models but then they assassinate the caster. Now if the scenario was caster kill, that would be OK, but the scenario was one of the flag scenarios. If the scenario is that you need to take an objective, the army isn't going to throw down their arms and run away if the caster is killed. The scenarios become almost meaningless. Caster kill should only win a game in a caster kill scenario. The caster is a powerful character and hurts if killed, but it shouldn't end the game. Because of this, the game is boring.

Not a fan of chess?

marxlives wrote:


Not a fan of chess?

I know this forum doesn't get much traffic. But check the time stamps before replying with snarky one liners.

Also, not being able to see the differences between Chess' simplicity, grid movement, alternating pieces, and exactly mirrored setup and Warmachine is the kind of difference that makes his point.

Warmachine isn't Chess. Warmachine is like if Chess was played on a board with 1/8 inch grid across a 4x4 table, with pieces that can capture each other from across the board, and every single piece from a single side gets to go all at once before the other side does. Oh, and the pieces all get 5 different moves it can make, and some pieces can give stronger moves to pieces, or take away moves. And let's double, nay quadruple, the number of pieces on top of all that.

 Vertrucio wrote:

marxlives wrote:

Not a fan of chess?

I know this forum doesn't get much traffic. But check the time stamps before replying with snarky one liners.

Also, not being able to see the differences between Chess' simplicity, grid movement, alternating pieces, and exactly mirrored setup and Warmachine is the kind of difference that makes his point.

Warmachine isn't Chess. Warmachine is like if Chess was played on a board with 1/8 inch grid across a 4x4 table, with pieces that can capture each other from across the board, and every single piece from a single side gets to go all at once before the other side does. Oh, and the pieces all get 5 different moves it can make, and some pieces can give stronger moves to pieces, or take away moves. And let's double, nay quadruple, the number of pieces on top of all that.

I think they were more referencing that the loss of a certain piece ends the game which is the primary win condition of Chess.

Though it is a little off, as Chess' King can't move like a Knight or Queen (or have the pawns do so) and be an obnoxious annoyance to the enemy.

I agree with the general principle that Caster Kill being 'always on' is a limiting factor. Having at least some scenarios where the army can fight on without a Caster would, at the very least, give more options.

You'd still be in dire trouble, but it'd certainly be interesting. I remember reading the rules for what happened to Warjacks when their Warcaster died, and my imagination being filled with cool visions of an allied or enemy Warcaster taking them over... only to find out that the rules mechanics would only come into effect in a handful of edge cases, or huge games that were way out of our gaming group's scope.

Always having been much more interested in the visuals of groups of models rather than individual characters, such scenarios would be a great deal more appealing. I suspect it'd also give a shot in the arm to some of the less-used Warcasters/Warlocks, for various reasons specific to the model.

 Vertrucio wrote:

marxlives wrote:


Not a fan of chess?

I know this forum doesn't get much traffic. But check the time stamps before replying with snarky one liners.

Also, not being able to see the differences between Chess' simplicity, grid movement, alternating pieces, and exactly mirrored setup and Warmachine is the kind of difference that makes his point.

Warmachine isn't Chess. Warmachine is like if Chess was played on a board with 1/8 inch grid across a 4x4 table, with pieces that can capture each other from across the board, and every single piece from a single side gets to go all at once before the other side does. Oh, and the pieces all get 5 different moves it can make, and some pieces can give stronger moves to pieces, or take away moves. And let's double, nay quadruple, the number of pieces on top of all that.

Still not a fan of chess?

You're embarrassing yourself mate...

In other news, I've been buying some retribution of scyrahvand steelheads for a modelling project. Half tempted to get some trenchers and winter guard.

Going for the more 'modern' stuff. And pikeys. Always pikeys.

Third edition really killed my desire to play. I got my favorite caster and battlegroup for Legion of Everblight painted up and third edition completely changed how the caster (Bethayne) plays and the great majority of my models stopped working well as an army with her. Then the theme forces dictate what to take and if that isn't what you want to use puts you at a large disadvantage. I don't know if it's still this way but I think i'll wait until Forth Edition to try the game again, provided it gets a Forth. Otherwise I may try talking my group into playing second again.

 Brotherjanus wrote:
Third edition really killed my desire to play. I got my favorite caster and battlegroup for Legion of Everblight painted up and third edition completely changed how the caster (Bethayne) plays and the great majority of my models stopped working well as an army with her. Then the theme forces dictate what to take and if that isn't what you want to use puts you at a large disadvantage. I don't know if it's still this way but I think i'll wait until Forth Edition to try the game again, provided it gets a Forth. Otherwise I may try talking my group into playing second again.

I'll be controversial and say I don't think wmh needed MK3. It needed MK2 reboot.

MK2 was fairly solid but it had its outliers.Cryx had a lot of silly. As did cygnar and they skewed the game.

Play MK2 as it was, include power up and some of the obvious nerfs required (knock a point of Def of gun mages and satyxis), get rid of some of the Mini feats, look a bit at cryx recursion shenanigans.

And politely ignore some of the sillier casters like the haleys.

I think you'd have the makings of a good game.

Deadnight wrote:

Play MK2 as it was, include power up and some of the obvious nerfs required (knock a point of Def of gun mages and satyxis), get rid of some of the Mini feats, look a bit at cryx recursion shenanigans.

This is basically all MK3 actually is.

 LunarSol wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Play MK2 as it was, include power up and some of the obvious nerfs required (knock a point of Def of gun mages and satyxis), get rid of some of the Mini feats, look a bit at cryx recursion shenanigans.

This is basically all MK3 actually is.

Putting aside the toxic "steamroller all the time" players and using PP theme lists i think MKIII the actual game rules/mechanics themselves are the best the game has ever been.

It is great fun to play in a casual setting at the 50 point level where the game thrives.

marxlives wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:

marxlives wrote:


Not a fan of chess?

I know this forum doesn't get much traffic. But check the time stamps before replying with snarky one liners.

Also, not being able to see the differences between Chess' simplicity, grid movement, alternating pieces, and exactly mirrored setup and Warmachine is the kind of difference that makes his point.

Warmachine isn't Chess. Warmachine is like if Chess was played on a board with 1/8 inch grid across a 4x4 table, with pieces that can capture each other from across the board, and every single piece from a single side gets to go all at once before the other side does. Oh, and the pieces all get 5 different moves it can make, and some pieces can give stronger moves to pieces, or take away moves. And let's double, nay quadruple, the number of pieces on top of all that.

Still not a fan of chess?

The problem with Warmahordes is that beginners don’t know how to protect their caster/lock. They don’t know the threat ranges, what is a sizable threat vs is not, the gotchas between multiple units that extend the threat ranges, and then have to learn their own army on top of that. It’s like teaching chess to a new player, but you only explain what the pieces do one at a time, but don’t explain the piece until after you use the piece for the first time and also seal the game with a checkmate.

The problem, slow, is you then expect that other player to go “That was fun. Can you shove a progressively larger dildo up my ass for the next fifty times?” Instead of, “That was a terrible gaming experience, I’d like to never do that again.”

That sounds more like it's a community problem, if they(players) treat learning/new players like veterans then of course it will drive them away. That is true of any game system.

I think its also an issue you get when you have a competitive game (even at pure casual its still a competition) and you have a huge skill gap. Warhamhordes has the issue of a mature and experienced playerbase with low recruitment for several years. So they've lost a lot of the middle ground players.

This is bad because it means good players have to start throwing matches to give the new players some wins - and not everyone thinks that way. They need to repopulate the middle ground which should, in a healthy system, be the greatest body of players. The middling group who are good enough to lose to beginners without throwing matches; who are often eager without being at the competitive top.

The other issue is the longer you sit like this the older your pros get and the older they get the greater the potential generation gap is with newbies who will typically be younger.

 LunarSol wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Play MK2 as it was, include power up and some of the obvious nerfs required (knock a point of Def of gun mages and satyxis), get rid of some of the Mini feats, look a bit at cryx recursion shenanigans.

This is basically all MK3 actually is.

Disagree. There were a lot of other minor changes, like how reposition got handed out (unnecessarily) like candy to everything, how tough/anti tough tech got farmed out in a similar manner to almost everythimg. Fundamentally a lot more 'cards' were ultimately 'changed' for sake of it, rather than focusing on the dozen or so real outliers in the game that really needed fixing and skewed the game poorly that were realistically necessary.

Then there's the wholesale change to themes.

Mk2 remix would have been enough.

Truth is, as I see it, pp were haemorrhaging cash. MK3, despite what they say, was a short term cash grab, not a long term strategy.

I think the biggest mistake of MK3 was taking away the idea of building an army and instead presenting the idea of theme forces.

You shifted the entier game from one of "collect and build an army" to one of "buy X only".

Yes that's a VERY simplified view to it, but its roughly what happened. Instead of getting the fun of building your own force around a leader, you instead could only select certain models for certain leaders. This means that a whole segment of your fluffy/casual/new/not top meta players were being pushed out somewhat. Existing players who had collections that perhaps didn't perfectly fit themes felt pushed out.

On its own it wasn't as huge an issue; but coupled to other elements it did add up. It doesn't help tha theme-force battle sets are very expensive by default which is fine for a game that has a mature; growing and active community (as GW regularly shows); but its not the direction you want when you are bleeding and looking to swell a gamerbase.


I can get the idea that PP had issues around the launch of MK3; there was the expensive offices and operating site; there was the loss of their PG program; the loss of their forums as a community hub (yes they kept them but they gutted them at the same time). They quickly lost their "cards in the box" model only half a year or so into the game as they couldn't envision a way to keep supplying people with updated cards each year; there was a supply issue in getting models to stores/customers.


I think there was also an issue that warmachine got stuck between being a skirmish game and being an army game. PP couldn't secure good enough plastics to make going for a large scale wargame work; and yet their army diversity and collections are big enough that a full skirmish game wasn't quite what a lot of the established crowd wanted (because when you've got a big collection you want to use it not just 5 models each week and let the rest gather dust).

I think the game was in its best shape a few months after mk3 launch, when PP balanced the worst outliers (Karchev Mad Dog spam, Una+ Griffons, High Reclaimer).

After that it was a downward spiral with Themepocalypse butchering variety, CiD powercreep and rulescreep, overcomplicated new models/factions with buckets of special rules to remember (despite promises of heavy streamlining at the start of mk3), prices getting absurd...