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States being named after their capital city is not uncommon historically.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:

Well, they're not terribly afraid to expand into Forge World units and/or just make stuff up (Norsca & Vampire Coast, for example

Lol, none of that was made up, most if not all of it existed in some form in older editions of the game (though Vampire Coast was only conceptually hinted at in the past, we never saw any artwork or miniatures for their units).

Yeah.... with no artwork or minis, many of their units (even an LL) were... not created for the DLC?
Ok then.

Uhh... most if not all the units existed, they were published as an army list in White Dwarf 306 in June 2005: https://warhammer-fantasy-battle.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire_Coast

What, you think Creative Assembly just made them up???

Nope. I think GW and CA had some meetings and developed stuff that hadn't been on the tabletop before. Cathay is whole hog new, barring the potential existence of Skyrockets from 3rd edition, and/or Kirin and Temple Dog mounts (though obviously those are more mythology inspired).

I really don't get the rant when you're admitting they didn't have artwork or models.

Likewise Kislev had a WHFB army list and miniatures range and an even more complete Warmaster army list and miniatures range. Norsca you have to go back to the 90s and like 3rd edition WHFB for their army lists and minis, a bit before my time in the hobby, but they too existed.

I'm aware. But the old Norsca 'army list' from 3rd edition is actually a tiny 'mercenary contingent' that in no way reflects what's in the CA list. There was another in a secondary magazine (not WD... Fanatic?) that also isn't reflected in the CA roster. Norscans at that time weren't chaos oriented for one thing- the look was very different, mostly very historical Viking miniatures. So many, if not most of the of the models CA uses aren't really based on anything 'Norsca' GW ever made.
Skinwolves were Forgeworld, Fimir don't belong at all.

And really obviously the Kislev stuff is based on TOW concepts, not the old Kislev models tacked on to the empire army book and WD pamphlet. Winged Lancers and the Ice Queen exist, but clearly aren't based on the old models. Boris is dead, and there isn't any sign on Ungol Horsemen (yet?) beyond a reference to an 'Ungol Prince' in a letter in the trailer.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Uhh... most if not all the units existed, they were published as an army list in White Dwarf 306 in June 2005: https://warhammer-fantasy-battle.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire_Coast

What, you think Creative Assembly just made them up???

This is the Zombie Pirates army list from White Dwarf.

CA took that very bare-bones list and added all the vampire characters, Depth Guard, Animated Hulks, Mournguls, Rotting Prometheans, additional varieties of Deck Droppers, more artillery, Bloated Corpses (the ingame version is very different from the original), Necrofex Colossi, and Terrorgheists.

That's a lot of new content that, yes, CA essentially made up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
The issue with Ogres as a faction is the fact that they have so few unit options on the tabletop.

Excluding characters:

-Ogre Bulls (hand weapons)
-Ogre Bulls (ironfists)
-Ironguts
-Leadbelchers
-Maneaters
-Mournfang Cavalry (great weapons)
-Mournfang Cavalry (ironfists)
-Rhinox Riders
-Stonehorns
-Thundertusks
-Frost Sabres
-Gorgers
-Yhetees
-Scraplaunchers
-Ironblasters
-Gnoblar Fighters
-Gnoblar Trappers

...You really don't think that's enough to build an army from? It's a heck of a lot more than Kislev, Zombie Pirates, Chaos Dwarfs, or Norsca ever got.

It's double what most of the AoS newly made (new models and new half armies) have in their army rosters.

From what I remember of the development, CA had a hard time with the look of the Zombie Pirates as GW had to approve all choices and design decisions. GW wanted to have control over that and while they had the White Dwarf army list as a guide, the other stuff had to be approved and GW would constantly say "no" and send stuff back. I'm amazed they managed to get what they did with regards.

So in regards to Cathay and Kislev having GW do all the design work and just passing it off to CA while GW also works on The Old world using those designs. I mean this opens up Kurgan tribes as a possibility, even Ind and Nippon.

I'm excited!

Voss wrote:
Nope. I think GW and CA had some meetings and developed stuff that hadn't been on the tabletop before. Cathay is whole hog new, barring the potential existence of Skyrockets from 3rd edition, and/or Kirin and Temple Dog mounts (though obviously those are more mythology inspired).

I really don't get the rant when you're admitting they didn't have artwork or models.

The point is more that this isn't "made up", its stuff that has a basis in the lore and the setting - and in all likelihood concept artwork existed for it even if we never got to see it. Its pretty well established that GW has done reams worth of concept artwork for units and armies that we have never heard of or seen before and is basically just sitting on them for future re-use in other projects, etc. ITs entirely possible that all of the above have their basis in this older concept work and were simply refreshed for TWW.

Fimir don't belong at all

Huh? Fimir existed in Warhammer Fantasy???

That's a lot of new content that, yes, CA essentially made up.

If by CA you mean GW and CA in partnership, and by made up you mean "had mostly developed in the past before killing WHFB and then revisited to modernize it". There was an interview a few years back where they discussed it.

Ooo that trailer.

Princess Letitgo is all Grimdark now.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:
Nope. I think GW and CA had some meetings and developed stuff that hadn't been on the tabletop before. Cathay is whole hog new, barring the potential existence of Skyrockets from 3rd edition, and/or Kirin and Temple Dog mounts (though obviously those are more mythology inspired).

I really don't get the rant when you're admitting they didn't have artwork or models.

The point is more that this isn't "made up", its stuff that has a basis in the lore and the setting - and in all likelihood concept artwork existed for it even if we never got to see it. Its pretty well established that GW has done reams worth of concept artwork for units and armies that we have never heard of or seen before and is basically just sitting on them for future re-use in other projects, etc. ITs entirely possible that all of the above have their basis in this older concept work and were simply refreshed for TWW.

That's a pointless theoretical hair to split. Its stuff the audience isn't familiar with- it doesn't matter if they've got a vault of unreleased stuff stashed away somewhere out of the public eye.
'Its possible' doesn't matter. Its new to everyone outside GW.

Its even more pointless when they're literally posting videos talking about how they're using brand NEW concepts for TOW Kislev and especially Cathay. These aren't things from an old stash they're sitting on. Its part of the current Old World project, and they've developed it further for this game. The big teaser image of Katarina vs the Bloodthirster with skullcrushers and winged lancers and bears (and one of the new icemaidens behind the queen) is 'copyright GW 2021, published by Sega.'

Fimir don't belong at all

Huh? Fimir existed in Warhammer Fantasy???.

Its even more pointless when they're literally posting videos talking about how they're using brand NEW concepts for TOW Kislev and especially Cathay. These aren't things from an old stash they're sitting on. Its part of the current Old World project, and they've developed it further for this game. The big teaser image of Katarina vs the Bloodthirster with skullcrushers and winged lancers and bears (and one of the new icemaidens behind the queen) is 'copyright GW 2021, published by Sega.'

Katarina is an established character, her new look and artwork isn't a major deviation from what was there before. Pretty much everything shown of Kislev so far is an evolution of an existing concept and design. I.E. none of this is "made up" as you contend, but rather the continuation of an established concept. You might think its a pedantic semantical difference, but it's not. Theres a far cry between something being wholly 100% brand new cut from whole clothe made up, and a refinement and evolution of an existing concept or design. Would you say that Sigvald was made up for Age of Sigmar because his new sculpt looks different from his old artwork and mini? Because thats basically the equivalent of what you're saying here by saying that they "made up" Kislev.

Context. Yes, they existed. They weren't part of Norsca army lists, and weren't chaos creatures. Mostly they lived in hinterlands inside the borders of the Empire, the Wasteland and Bretonnia.

Ah, understood. It was unclear to me what you meant.

Fimir weren't chaos creatures. Mostly they lived in hinterlands inside the borders of the Empire, the Wasteland and Bretonnia

.

They were Daemon worshippers and summoners and although they were known to exist in those areas they were also stated (WFRP1 p218-219) as living in the northern coast of the Old World and anywhere it was "Dank and dismal". They were also supposed to have a island capital that moved and travelled in longships so Norse is actually not that big of a stretch.

Its up for pre-sale on steam. Release date - late 2021.

It mentions you get an extra race pack if you do the pre-sale.

So it looks like there will be day 1 DLC. Not a fan of this but I'm buying the game anyway so might as well pre order.

They also note that the pre-order bonus remains in effect for the first week after release. So you can simply wait until it goes live and buy during that week.

Honestly much as I love the series and game I never feel any real need to pre-order because in the end I'm not getting anything and they won't run out of stock. Chances are I might pre order a few days in advance if there's a pre-download (esp as my net is pretty slow so the 30GB+ or so in size that the game is at least likely to be will take a while); but that's purely impatience on my part. Any time in that first week will be good.

 Overread wrote:
They also note that the pre-order bonus remains in effect for the first week after release. So you can simply wait until it goes live and buy during that week.

Honestly much as I love the series and game I never feel any real need to pre-order because in the end I'm not getting anything and they won't run out of stock. Chances are I might pre order a few days in advance if there's a pre-download (esp as my net is pretty slow so the 30GB+ or so in size that the game is at least likely to be will take a while); but that's purely impatience on my part. Any time in that first week will be good.

And let's be blunt - unless it's an utter and complete disaster of the sort that reformats your hard drive when you try and run it, anyone who bought the first two games is probably going to buy the third game very early on, even if it means sitting and waiting three months for CA to patch it into a playable state.

 Argive wrote:
Its up for pre-sale on steam. Release date - late 2021.

It mentions you get an extra race pack if you do the pre-sale.

So it looks like there will be day 1 DLC. Not a fan of this but I'm buying the game anyway so might as well pre order.

The way this was handled with TWW2 was that the extra race you got was DLC for TWW1 also (Norsca).

Maybe they’ll do the same here, where the preorder race is playable in TWW2 mortal empires campaign.

TBH, I feel this is one game where a certain amount of DLC abuse is warranted because the different races are so individual. It’s not like historical games where animations or models can be reused from one race to the next. I assume TWW3 is gonna have something like mortal empires where you can play as races from earlier games if you own them. It’s going to be expensive for new players who currently don’t own any, but at the same time it’s gonna be crazy having 20 or so playable races across a whole Warhammer map going all the way to Cathay.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Its up for pre-sale on steam. Release date - late 2021.

It mentions you get an extra race pack if you do the pre-sale.

So it looks like there will be day 1 DLC. Not a fan of this but I'm buying the game anyway so might as well pre order.

TBH, I feel this is one game where a certain amount of DLC abuse is warranted because the different races are so individual. It’s not like historical games where animations or models can be reused from one race to the next. I assume TWW3 is gonna have something like mortal empires where you can play as races from earlier games if you own them. It’s going to be expensive for new players who currently don’t own any, but at the same time it’s gonna be crazy having 20 or so playable races across a whole Warhammer map going all the way to Cathay.

That would be awesome. I hope they dont just cut out ulthan and lustria and go solely in the other direction.
I would be totally down for a Vortex style campaign and a much expanded mortal empires with the added region. The map is already massive.
The main issue is you get too many order tides forming and confederation mega faction stomping out other races so by the time you get to new territory you end up fighting the same faction for days. would be nice if they held back on confederation steam roller.

Im probably going to pre-order on payday at the end of the month as a treat.
I think nows a good time to get into streaming

They've said the mortal empires style map will come after launch, probably so they can iron out launch issues with the engine and such before hitting it with a MASSIVE map that's way beyond anything CA has ever made before in scale and size.

Also don't forget the games go on sale pretty often and I'd be shocked if we don't see some bundles appear. At this stage I'd even wager we might see a "Definitive" edition for Warhammer 1 and 2 appear on stores giving you a one cheap purchase option for the whole experience.


Simplifying the purchase for new people and making it more likely people get all the content and not just bits.

That and things like Fanatical sales and Humble Bundles might well happen too (Warhammer 1 was humbled bundled before 2 was launched).

So for those who are new there will be ample chances to get the previous games at fair discounts.















As for all the DLC I don't see it as abuse, I see it as exactly what DLC is for in a positive way. Letting a developer add content that would otherwise put the core game over normal price thresholds and also rewarding good sales with additional content (Norsca were not going to be added originally, high sales added them).
It's the same practice that Paradox uses for many of their bigger titles. The likes of Crusader Kings 2 and Stellaris are big games with a lot of DLC (often bundled - heck I don't even like Crusader Kings 2 and I've wound up with most of the DLC at very cheap prices); but that's DLC that each time added either small additions at cheap prices or big chunks of new content. Basically so long as customers kept generating enough profit the company keeps feeding them more for the game. The end result are massive games that are chock full of content.



That isn't to say that every DLC is a winner and there are lessons. Eg CA learned that people didn't like the mini-faction campaigns in Warhammer 1; so all the mini-campaigns that came in Warhammer 2 were refined and adapted to work better and from what I can tell people really do like them.

Yeah but CA does dick around with its customers, right back to making Chaos a pre-order bonus for TWW1.

They do tend to leave things out only to add them in later DLCs.

Maybe I'm just biased, but I don't really mind. I feel like the games are worth the price to buy at launch anyway so I don't mind preordering. I find it less egregious than "season pass" stuff, or DLC that you aren't sure is worth it, or DLC that is integral to the experience, or pay to win games, or pay-to-not-grind.

With TWW race packs, you pretty much know what you're getting and you can decide if that's worth the price either of the pack itself or the price of preordering.

It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.

Both the Vampire Coast and Tomb Kings factions were very well received by the players. The other DLCs for Warhammer 2 were only sub-fsctions of an already existing race. So the current track record suggests that the Chaos Dwarves will turn out just fine.

As for being in at release? Never would have happened. The Ogre Kingdoms would have had a higher priority based on its status as a fully supported army when 8th Edition ended.

Beastmen were and still are a flaming dumpster fire of a faction. Chaos is just a plain, unlit dumpster. Wood Elves were barely passable until the very recent rework and that rework has yet to stand the test of time. TK's roster is lacking in generic Lord variety and their Mortal Empires campaign is lacklustre despite interesting faction mechanics. The Mortal Empires campaign for Vampire Coast is a joke, although they do have one of the best rosters in the game,so they have that going for them. Norsca is just plain vanilla mediocre, with nothing to distinguish them from other raiding factions.

Compare that to Skaven, Empire or even the reworked Orcs. Hell, Grom alone had more thought put into his mechanics than all the TK lords combined.

I am still convinced that they will end up as the pre-order faction. Some of their lands are already in WH2 so they could have the same treatment as Norsca being playable in both games.

The only other options that I am aware of would be Ogre Kingdoms and Dogs of War. Ogres would be unlikely given all new animations and would probably not show up until a year or two into the game. DoW don't really fit with the 3rd game's presumed map so I feel fairly confident that some angry stunties will show up pretty soon!

Eumerin wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.

Both the Vampire Coast and Tomb Kings factions were very well received by the players. The other DLCs for Warhammer 2 were only sub-fsctions of an already existing race. So the current track record suggests that the Chaos Dwarves will turn out just fine.

Totally agree. CA has progressed a lot from the TW1 DLC factions, with Norsca as a median step along the way (when they were still learning how to do substantial faction-specific mechanics with the hunts). The race packs for game 2 are way better, and whatever race packs come with game 3 will be along those lines.

As for being in at release? Never would have happened. The Ogre Kingdoms would have had a higher priority based on its status as a fully supported army when 8th Edition ended.

Eh. I do think its very (very, very) surprising that its Cathay rather than OK or CD as a base faction. 'Never would have happened' seems absurd in the face of basically fully developing Cathay as a faction this long after WFB as a game was killed off.

But I do fully expect Ogres to be the 'early adopter' bonus faction, and Chaos Dwarfs to be the first 'independent' DLC pack... late spring or summer next year, I'd guess. There aren't many other options for full race packs (though I still expect existing faction revamps through lord packs, similar to the twisted and the twilight or Superman vs Grom). I don't expect Dogs of War ever, and Araby's opportunity has come and gone.

Voss wrote:
[
Eh. I do think its very (very, very) surprising that its Cathay rather than OK or CD as a base faction. 'Never would have happened' seems absurd in the face of basically fully developing Cathay as a faction this long after WFB as a game was killed off.

I agree that Cathay is very surprising. But imo, the choices would either boil down to "something conventional that was fully supported by the game" - and the only choice like that still left is Ogre Kingdoms - or "something completely out of left field", which is where Cathay falls. Chaos Dwarves are somewhere in the middle of that, which dramatically reduces their chance of being included, imo.

Eumerin wrote:

Voss wrote:
[
Eh. I do think its very (very, very) surprising that its Cathay rather than OK or CD as a base faction. 'Never would have happened' seems absurd in the face of basically fully developing Cathay as a faction this long after WFB as a game was killed off.

I agree that Cathay is very surprising. But imo, the choices would either boil down to "something conventional that was fully supported by the game" - and the only choice like that still left is Ogre Kingdoms - or "something completely out of left field", which is where Cathay falls. Chaos Dwarves are somewhere in the middle of that, which dramatically reduces their chance of being included, imo.

I have a hard time with the concept that something in the middle is the least likely. [Ie, the speed limit for a non-highway is 25 or 45, but never ever 30 or 35. That's just conceptually weird]

Especially since they're directly to the existing maps (especially the new eastern tail they added to the ME map for Eshin and DE in that lord pack). You can currently physically mouse over the Darklands on the Mortal Empires map, even though its greyed out.

IN TW3, for Kislev to get to the Ogre Kingdoms or Cathay, the most direct route is through the Northern Darklands. It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented to have non-factions in that space at launch (see Khemri and the Vampire Coast), it could just as easily have been filled at the start. Without Cathay, I would have fully expected it to be, either as a base faction or as the early adopter bonus. Given Chaos Dwarfs had army lists more often and more recently (Ravening Hordes, WD, the 'WD Presents Chaos Dwarves' book and Forgeworld) than Norsca or Vampire Coast, its weird in that respect as well.

Barring the push for a Chinese audience and the urge to have a second 'not-overtly-evil' faction, Kislev/Ogres/Chaos Dwarfs/Daemons was widely accepted as the most likely base faction setup for TW3.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.

You're not alone in that camp, they pick a faction that has barely anything written about it and had no TT support over chaos dwarfs and ogre kingdoms as a core race? Hence why my stance is rather neutral for the trailer and the fact gameplay wise if you play enough total war you would know katarin is going to get squished by the bloodthrister hence why the moment wasn't all that "great" in my eyes.

You lot behave like a storm in a waterglass...
Check the map. To the right there's a massive ammount of land in the ME map.

CA only changes Maps infront of a release of a faction, cue albion and the big meanie dino thingy, or khmeri, etc.

Now tell me. what is there to the right of the map?

This game is costing me a fortune, I decided when it was announced I would get a new gaming pc as my old i7 3770k was beginning to creak so 2000 pounds later I will be ready plus a nvm drive so mortal empires doesn't take 15 minutes a turn.

Marxist artist wrote:
This game is costing me a fortune, I decided when it was announced I would get a new gaming pc as my old i7 3770k was beginning to creak so 2000 pounds later I will be ready plus a nvm drive so mortal empires doesn't take 15 minutes a turn.

It's usually best to wait until a game comes out before upgrading your system so you know what aspects are importnant, though if you're spending 2000 pounds I imagine you're going high end with all parts of it (unless computer parts are way more expensive in the uk, lol).

When I last checked benchmarks, there was no appreciable difference in game load times for having an nvme drive. SSD is a lot faster than HDD, but there was no additional boost for going NVMe over SATA... so for my computer I decided to buy a large capacity SATA with good sustained read/write speeds rather than a smaller NVMe for the same price.

The game will likely run on similar specks to Warhammer 1 and 2 so we roughly know the performance. It's a yearish off though.


Honestly the only thing i'd hold back on now is if you're buying parts and want a new Nvidia 3K gen graphics card because they are insanely inflated right now due to short support and scalpers.

Processors, motherboards and all the core parts are likely not going to leap ahead in the next year so they'll see you for a long time. Heck I'm debating an upgrade and will simply put my 2K nvidia card into the computer and wait until the prices come back down to sane points before considering an upgrade



Prebuilt machines are more affordable at present, because they at least aren't being hit by scalpers. If you want the new generation graphics cards